Debbie Thurman, of Jerry Falwell’s Thomas Road Baptist Church, has founded an ex-gay web site: theFormers.com.
What, one might wonder, qualifies Thurman to mislead people into joining ex-gay political groups?
Almost nothing, apparently — she has no professional training in counseling or mental health. Her autobiographical sketch cites a college degree in English and a stint as public affairs officer in the Marine Corps. Despite her lack of competence, Thurman has spent years profiting from shell “ministries” that inflict her ignorance upon Christians who suffer from clinical depression.
Thurman’s site is well-designed, but it offers little if any original content. TheFormers.com seems to be merely another in a family of religious-right linkfests for Exodus International, Focus on the Family, NARTH, and PFOX — a pricey method of inflating the Google PageRank of these organizations.
For someone who claims to be a counseling and recovery expert, Thurman’s public statements suggest extraordinary arrogance, insensitivity and hostility toward the people who supposedly require her services.
To Thurman, same-sex-attracted people are political pawns to be derided. In March 2008, Thurman criticized conservative columnist Michael Gerson for mentioning the truth that Falwell was notorious among conservatives for spouting hate. Specifically:
- Falwell declared AIDS to be God’s official punishment for same-sex-attracted persons, and
- Falwell implicitly encouraged his congregation to crush gays because if they didn’t, gays would “literally crush all decent men, women and children.”
Thurman not only denied that these actions were hateful; she also parroted another religious-right activist’s demand that the columnist apologize for telling the truth.
Besides being driven by an unhealthy and politicized vision of a violent church, Thurman is also motivated by blame. In a February 2008 article at NARTH’s web site, Thurman blames same-sex-attracted people for at least three problems for which she flees personal responsibility:
- the near-failure of her 26-year marriage due her same-sex attractions.
- her inability to love other women, which she atttributes not to her own shortcomings, but to a “self-destructive, counterfeit version of love” that she asserts is universal among all persons who are same-sex-attracted.
- her decision to closet her sexuality and adopt a false “identity” as a “former” homosexual rather than acknowledge the truth that, if she indeed is attracted to women and her husband, then she may be bisexual.
With no academic experience or reputable evidence to support her, Thurman nevertheless uses the web site of NARTH, a self-styled ex-gay think tank, as a platform from which to dictate the following myth as if it were reputable mental-health science:
No, they [same-sex-attracted persons] are not unhappy because of a society that discriminates against them. Their misery lies much deeper. I believe it is an instinctive recoiling against the new, man-created image of human nature that bears so little resemblance to the divine image we are meant to reflect. Humanity will never be able to draw what it needs from its own shallow, self-contained wells. The most effective therapists are the ones who understand human nature in this way.
As TWO reported Sept. 23, NARTH has been caught lying about sex-orientation research while the American Family Association has been caught lying about research which actually finds that depression and other mental health problems result from antigay stigma, not honesty about one’s same-sex orientation.
Thurman apparently suffers from a similar tendency to abuse science. In the previously cited article for NARTH, Thurman took already-distorted results of informal surveys published in 2007 by two conservative Christian researchers, Stanton Jones and Mark Yarhouse — and further distorted them.
These surveys utilized rigged samples, mostly of exgays-for-pay, and defined ex-gay “success” to include complete failure to change one’s orientation. Yet, for all the attempts by Jones and Yarhouse to predetermine and politicize results, their data — along with subsequent repudiations by survey participants — revealed that Jones and Yarhouse had to exaggerate and misrepresent their participants’ experiences in order to claim that a mere 11 percent of ex-gay participants had successfully drifted slightly toward heterosexuality. Jones and Yarhouse also mischaracterized the suffering of ex-gay program participants. According to Patrick M. Chapman, Ph.D.:
The participants themselves refute the authors’ assertion that change therapy is not harmful. One participant says these groups are not “healthy or necessarily beneficial” (p. 301), another reports his faith is “taking a beating” (p. 313), a third feels “hopeless”, “helpless”, “empty”, “frustrated”, “hurt”, and “very alone” (p. 314, all after 3 years in the Exodus program), a fourth bemoans he spent so many years trying to change that he has missed out on other goals in his life (p. 316), and a fifth claims involvement in the therapy made life “more difficult” (p. 317). One wonders what would have to be the reports of the participants for Jones and Yarhouse to declare the ministry harmful? However, they do recognize that the 23 participants (of an original 98) who dropped out of the program may have been harmed, but they cannot be sure of such a conclusion (p. 354). Nonetheless, dismissing this possibility and ignoring the statements of the participants that remained in the program, Jones and Yarhouse confidently declare the change process is not harmful. Once again, their conclusion is not based on the evidence: those who declare they are hurt by the process are evidence of harm.
One might be inclined to forgive Jones and Yarhouse for their optimism if they had not presented anecdotal stories of individuals not related to the current study who committed suicide because they were unable to change. The authors plead: “should such anecdotes foreclose the option of the individual choosing to attempt orientation change?” (pp. 359-360). Jones and Yarhouse do not indicate how many deaths and testimonies of harm they consider permissible in order to allow other individuals the opportunity for a change that, by all evidence, is unlikely to ever happen.
Jones and Yarhouse recognize that individuals who enter ex-gay ministries are vulnerable (p. 64). Thus, it is disappointing to have the authors draw unwarranted conclusions that are in direct opposition to their own decree as to what the study can and cannot indicate. While their book will be likely and erringly used to convince some homosexual Christians or their families that change is possible, the results demonstrate nothing of the kind.
Thurman failed to inform her readers of the flaws and distortions in Jones and Yarhouse’s interpretation of their own survey data. Instead, she declared (via NARTH):
A new book by Dr. Stanton Jones and Dr. Mark Yarhouse, Ex-gays?: A Longitudinal Study of Religiously Mediated Change in Sexual Orientation, concludes that there is little risk of harm from therapy willingly sought by individuals seeking to change their same-sex attraction, and substantiates that change (either the ability to maintain celibacy, or a shift toward satisfactory heterosexuality) does occur in a significant percentage of people, at a success rate at least equivalent to treatment for depression. This study, combined with the growing numbers of people drawn to ex-gay conferences sponsored by Exodus or Focus on the Family, has greatly agitated the gay-activist community.
Agitated? Yes. People who value honesty, integrity, and freedom are indeed “agitated” by advocates for dishonesty, denial, discrimination, and blame-shifting. Debbie Thurman’s blame game and deceit against sexually and spiritually honest persons is a sad reflection upon her own faith in a god of deception, self-delusion, skin-deep morals, and flight from personal responsibility.
Hat tip: Ex-Gay Watch
Hey, Wayne. Thanks for the coverage.
You’ve said a lot here, not all of which I feel the need to respond to. I will address a few things.
First item: “What, one might wonder, qualifies Thurman to mislead people into joining ex-gay political groups?”
Please tell me and your readers just what political groups I am asking people to join? I have links at the Web site to some prominent organizations and ministries. I do not agree with all of what they have done or stand for, but I do agree with enough of it to include them as sources for people to check out and make their own judgments about. I should have added that disclaimer. We’ll do that.
You’ll be interested to know that I am planning to remove one link: PFOX. It shouldn’t be there, in my view, because of its politicized nature.
Now, for your response to the first item, to wit, what qualifies me …:
“Almost nothing, apparently ‚Äî she has no professional training in counseling or mental health. Her autobiographical sketch cites a college degree in English and a stint as public affairs officer in the Marine Corps. Despite her lack of competence, Thurman has spent years profiting from shell “ministries” that inflict her ignorance upon Christians who suffer from clinical depression.”
Oh dear, if only you knew how ludicrous your last assertion is — with not one shred of proof. Show me the money! I could use it. Let’s see, I am still paying off debt associated with self-publishing a few books that had modest but meaningful sales. The modest royalties from others have been long gone into that hole. I have no salary save some small writing fees (my Amy Foundation columns are offered free) and am employed by no one. I do not do fund raising or receive donations. So how, again, am I profiting? Oh, it’s intrinsic: I am helping people. Wonderfully profitable, actually.
I was not aware that one needed specific academic credentials to serve in ministry. By the way, did I miss where you have listed your credentials?
Next item: You list some “hateful actions” of the late Jerry Falwell and then say, “Thurman not only denied that these actions were hateful; she also parroted another religious-right activist’ demand that the columnist apologize for telling the truth.”
You said this in reference to an obscure letter I wrote to the editor of the Lynchburg News & Advance that appeared last March and that some people now seem to be obsessing over. So, for the benefit of all, let’s trot out the whole letter and examine what it’s really about:
“How sad that conservative columnist Michael Gerson chose Holy Week to take an unmerited and uncharacteristically brainless swipe at the late Rev. Jerry Falwell by mentioning him as someone who “spouted hate” in his recent syndicated column, carried in The News & Advance on March 19.
Please don’t automatically associate this newspaper with Falwell disparagement because the editors chose to print Gerson’s column. But hold Gerson accountable. Why he felt the need to make that comment, I cannot say.
Robert Knight, director of the Culture and Media Institute and a fellow Christian, has called for Gerson to apologize to the Falwell family, Thomas Road Baptist Church and Liberty University. Of course, the Falwells and sensible Christians will forgive him, as they should. Knight’s excellent column can be found at Townhall.com.
As a columnist myself–one who has had a difficult time cultivating a working relationship with this newspaper–I fully understand the occasional slip of the tongue or ill-thought-out comment. I have inadvertently or intentionally offended where I had no right to. There is a difference between godly offense and human offense. I make no apology for the one, but should always seek to avoid the other. So, I forgive Gerson. I’d just like to see him take the high road and make that apology.”
(End of letter)
Now, exactly where did I claim that my late pastor was not guilty of saying some hateful and ill-conceived things? I did not say that. It could be said I was implying just the opposite when I put myself on the hook. I took Gerson to task for attaching that swipe to a commentary addressing other things during Holy Week. I thought it tasteless of him, and I was not alone in that view. I then forgave him but asked him to apologize for what I perceived as an offense to the Falwell family, who had not yet had a year to grieve Doc’s passing and already had suffered a boatload of hateful, insensitive and even false slurs from angry people who were dancing on their patriarch’s grave.
Now, you are free to assume you have some Gnostic power to interpret “what the captain really said.” But you missed this one.
Last item: “Debbie Thurman’ blame game and deceit against sexually and spiritually honest persons is a sad reflection upon her own faith in a god of deception, self-delusion, skin-deep morals, and flight from personal responsibility.”
Well, that entity may be your god, Wayne. Mine is different by far.
Sorry, Michael. I directed my comments to Wayne, but it was you who wrote the blog post.
“Now, exactly where did I claim that my late pastor was not guilty of saying some hateful and ill-conceived things”
Wow, how far is Debbie’s head up her a*s?
“saying some hateful and ill-conceived things” is barely scraping the surface.
It’s bad enough that dead glutton blamed 9/11 on gays and liberal-minded people (obviously to stir up hate and violence in the USA) – but what about that whole thing with Falwell, James Dobson, Phyllis Schlafly, the LaHayes and Tony Perkins secretly planning in the early 80′s, and then coming out proposing and pushing for the execution of ALL gay people?
Luckily, some of those clips are compiled on YouTube:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=sfN7i3tOguI
And as for these quacks, we need to once and for all work to have these kooks put out of business. If b******t like this keeps up, you’ll soon be going in for a root canal, performed by some nutball with nothing more than a 5th grade education. Or maybe you’ll be treated for depression by somebody who was just a MacDonalds cashier the day before – when all you have is a sprained ankle.
Can these people be reported to the BBB?
Thurman: “Please tell me and your readers just what political groups I am asking people to join?”
But your political agenda represents only a small part of your corruption.
1. You have multiple unresolved mental-health issues involving your marriage, your same-sex attractions, your difficulty in loving others, and your denial and blame-shifting around these issues.
2. You are inflicting not only your personal issues, but your reckless disregard for professional mental-health care standards and the safety of patients, upon innocent Christian counselees by falsely describing your smug, presumptuous, ignorant, and misguided quackery as “Christian” and “ministry.” It isn’t.
3. You describe your incidents of verbal abuse, false statements, and intentional deception (regarding research into sex orientation, depression, and other health issues) with the euphemistic word “ministry,” as if using holy words such as that can excuse your sin.
4. You sidestep your own criticism of Michael Gerson for truthfully calling some of Falwell’s activities hateful. It is no way an “offense to the Falwell family” to tell them the truth. And you are in no position to “forgive” Gerson since it is you, and Falwell, who have sinned.
Ms. Thurman, your response to my post, in short, confirms that you bow to a false god of blame games, flight from responsibility, hateful activities, and deceit against healthy, sexually and spiritually honest people. You are many things, but at this time, you are not particularly Christ-like.
Michael, Michael:
You say, “You have sidestepped nearly all of my criticisms of you:
1. You have multiple unresolved mental-health issues involving your marriage, your same-sex attractions, your difficulty in loving others, and your denial and blame-shifting around these issues.”
So, you are making a “diagnosis” of me? Like Wayne enjoys doing from afar, with no apparent credentials to do so (you did not respond to that question from me, either). Looks like the pot is trying call the kettle black. I have no unresolved issues, but you may believe what you want if it makes you happy. Go thou and be deluded.
“2. You are inflicting not only your personal issues, but your reckless disregard for professional mental-health care standards and the safety of patients, upon innocent Christian counselees by falsely describing your smug, presumptuous, ignorant, and misguided quackery as “Christian” and “ministry.” It isn’t.” It is. End of story. What more need I say? I’m there doing it and you’re not, so what do you know?
“3. You describe your incidents of verbal abuse, false statements, and intentional deception (regarding research into sex orientation, depression, and other health issues) with the euphemistic word “ministry,” as if using holy words such as that can excuse your sin.”
I don’t think you have even an inkling of what recovery ministry is all about. You can only parrot the usual convoluted rhetoric. Talk is cheap.
“4. You sidestep your own criticism of Michael Gerson for truthfully calling some of Falwell’ activities hateful. It is no way an “offense to the Falwell family” to tell them the truth. And you are in no position to “forgive” Gerson since it is you, and Falwell, who have sinned.”
It was Gerson’s timing and the way in which he did it I did not like.
“Ms. Thurman, your response to my post, in short, confirms that you bow to a false god of blame games, flight from responsibility, hateful activities, and deceit against healthy, sexually and spiritually honest people. You are many things, but at this time, you are not particularly Christ-like.”
Again, you are entitled to your opinion. I will refrain from hurling ad hominem invectives at you since I don’t know you. Somehow you believe you have channeled a path into my psyche (via a Vulcan mind meld, maybe?). Which of us really sounds neurotic?
Debbie,
You disclosed your personal problems in your own profile, and they permeate your comments. If you are offended at other laypersons’ observations about you, then I trust you and NARTH will refrain from presumptuously diagnosing others whom you are not competent to diagnose.
Unfortunately, your livelihood as an ex-gay activist may depend upon providing false diagnoses about same-sex-attracted persons — diagnoses that are rooted in prejudice, not science nor faith. Sad, but that’s your responsibility, not mine.
There is an important difference between us: I don’t present myself to the public as a counselor or an expert on certain disorders. You do masquerade as a counselor and therapist — even as you misrepresent the research of the real experts and smear the professionalism and patient safeguards of the mainstream mental-health professions.
Michael,
This sounds a lot like Stacy Harp – who goes around claiming she’s a “family therapist” and “marriage therapist”, and that title is given to her whenever she’s running at the mouth on Fox News.
But when she was called on NOT being a registered therapist a couple months ago, she tried to backpedal and claims that she’s not a therapist.
So is she a registered therapist only when she’s on TV, and in print?
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2008/06/the-most-annoyi.html
But the best evidence of her sanity was that infamous phone call to Joe Brummer, which he released earlier this year. Listen for yourself, and see if this person is fit to be ANY kind of family therapist:
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2008/04/audio-s-harp-an.html
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=5127
Oh, Lord. Does this never end? Read my last post response to you over at XGW.
“Debbie Thurman, of Jerry Falwell’ Thomas Road Baptist Church, has founded an ex-gay web site: theFormers.com.”
Well that was thoroughly vilifying.
And by thoroughly vilifying, I mean T-H-O-R-O-U-G-H-L-Y V-I-L-I-F-Y-I-N-G.
—
Just to be fair though, I Googled “gay lies,” and I still got mostly pro-gay websi—does she even know how to operate a search engine?
I’m still looking for the Dr. Xiridou “Dutch Study,” it’ got to be on there somewhere.
Maybe it’ just me, but personally, I don’t think you can call yourself an anti-gay-agenda activist until you’ve accused monogamous gay couples of being non-monogamous – based on a study that excluded monogamous couples.
So until I see that, I think she’ lying.
The most “successful” snake-oil salesmen always knew when to move on.
In the dead of the night they packed their bags, and hitched their wagons, and were gone by morning. Gone before dawn broke and the folk they had deceived came looking for them.
Yet – whether it be the town of Falwell, or the town of Thurman they still sold the same stinking lie.
The snake oil they sell here?
Simple: distribute hate, promise a false answer to that hate.
Debbie — you are the CAUSE, not the cure. Go away.
“Debbie Thurman, of Jerry Falwell’ Thomas Road Baptist Church, has founded an ex-gay web site: theFormers.com.”
*****************
What a low-life.
Not only is she piggybacking off the gay community to support herself, now she’s invoking being a member of Jerry Falwell’s church.
As if that makes you special.
Kinda reminds you of Rebbie Jackson. “Hi, I’m Rebbie Jackson – sister of the famous Michael Jackson and Janet Jackson; and to a lesser extent, La Toya.”
Here’s some entertainment for Debbie, courtesy of the lovely Judge Judy – in regards to these “recovery ministries”.
(Pt. 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmmgTrNOWi0
(Pt. 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkKVZFhEC_U
Of course she’ll argue the verdict, beings people like herself believe they’re above the law because they own a Wal-Mart bible.
But as Judy would tell her: “even on your best day, you’ll never be as smart as me, on my WORST day”.
I could share with you a love letter that my sister-in-law received from Debbie Thurman, during the time she now claims, she was “healing” from her same sex attraction.
In a mini-novel letter, Debbie proclaimed her love for her and her hope that the feelings were mutual. Debbie wrote that she was willing to leave her husband and her two young daughters, for the chance and a life with my sis-in-law.
It was not a letter written by a “mixed-up” woman.
She may believe she has overcome her same sex attractions, but I’m sure the truth is that she has only surpressed them.
Mrs. Thurman would do more for the Christian community by coming out as proud gay/bi-sexual woman who believes in God and is loved by God.
Scott,
Very entertaining video, thank you for posting them!
“Falwell declared AIDS to be God’ official punishment for same-sex-attracted persons”
AIDS has been around for roughly 100 years and yet Christians quote scripture that supposedly condemns homosexuality. Saying that AIDS is God’s punishment for homosexuality would then logically mean that the bible was written only 100 years ago.
“No, they [same-sex-attracted persons] are not unhappy because of a society that discriminates against them. Their misery lies much deeper”
I hear this a lot. That gay people are unhappy because they are gay. Then why aren’t all gay people like that. There ARE gay people who live happy, healthy and successful lives, to the extent, that it would be impossible for them to be unhappy because of their sexual orientation. They could hide their misery if they had it, yes, but only to a certain extent.
If someone, in their heart believes that reparative therapy would work for them, then yay, go them!
But I went through reparative therapy and I’ve been in relationships with girls and none worked out. I realized after a time of non-stop fooling myself, I could not be happy unless I was with another man. Now I am, and I’m happier than I’ve ever been with any girl. I’m done with the “heterosexual lifestyle”.
“I was not aware that one needed specific academic credentials to serve in ministry.”
No you do not. But being a “therapist” or advocating “therapy” you should have credentials relating to mental health.
See, religiously speaking, homosexuality may be believed to be a rightable wrong, but nearly all mental health professionals say, no homosexuality is as normal for a minority as heterosexuality is for the vast majority.
And no, all those professionals, weren’t “taken over by gay activists” or “persuaded by the gay agenda”. It is literally impossible for ALL those professionals to side with a minority (that are percieved to be mentally ill) over the sizeable majority that is against homosexuality without evidence.
That would be like a bunch of psychotic people trying to persuade that psychosis is not a mental disorder and getting their way.
You’re welcome, James! I’ve been a Judge Judy fan for years! LOL
I’m surprised those people are allowed to run a “ministry/halfway house” with a very little-educated staff. I wouldn’t allow ANYONE with just a GED to treat me for allergies, much less some addiction.