I was at the gym tonight thinking of a documentary I recently saw – “Chasing the Devil.” In the film, a Jewish “ex-gay” organization, Jews Offering New Alternatives to Homosexuality (JONAH) is featured.
I am profoundly disturbed by this slippery organization that pretends to be Jewish, while it is really promoting right wing Christianity. Jewish parents should beware that JONAH recommends and promotes fundamentalist Christian books in the guise of helping people “change.”
Worse, they underhandedly use a discredited therapist with a Jewish sounding last name, Richard Cohen, to recruit new clients. The truth is, Cohen abandoned his Judaism long-ago for the Moonies and then switched to fundamentalist Christianity.
So, why is Cohen still JONAH’s leading therapist? Are there no Jewish therapists in New Jersey, where the group is based? If not, are there none in New York City, directly across the river? I suppose JONAH thinks all those guys with beards I see in Brooklyn, where I live, are actually Amish.
Basically, Jewish parents who send their gay children to get “help” from JONAH – will introduce them to Christian missionary work. Come to think of it, JONAH should change its deceptive name to “‘Jews’ Offering New Alternatives To Judaism.” (JONAJ)
JONAH should start acting like a Jewish group or drop its misleading name.
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JONAH isn’t really an Orthodox organization either, though. If they were, they would certainly not use the resources they do and they would stay the hell away from Cohen. A certain “Mr. B” who is Jewish and commented here earlier investigated them himself and actually wrote an article on it. He mentioned things like how they were writing him emails on the sabbath and that one of the founders is actually active in the Reform faith, which is ironically one of the most gay-accepting “flavors” of Judaism.
I think most American Orthodox Jews seeking a “solution” would go to NARTH. Even though NARTH is hardly secular, they do a better job coming off that way than JONAH or even Cohen. In Israel, there is Atzat Nefesh, which offers “healing” in several areas. One is “Inverted Tendencies” which is their euphemism for being queer. I wish I knew more about the site but I can’t translate Hebrew. They also offer “healing” from sexual abuse and pornographic addiction. Those two things might warrant seeking help, but from professionals who can give it properly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atzat_Nefesh
A website has been started by Orthodox gays to counter it, called HOD – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hod_(Organization)
Comment by Emily K — February 24, 2009 @ 12:00 am
Surely JONAH must have some statement of faith, just like Exodus has. Otherwise, why call it Jewish? It should be asked, of anyone working for the organisation, do they explicitly reject the anti-semitic teachings of the Gospel according to St John, or those of Paul in 1 Thess 2:14-16, and the book of Revelation?
Comment by adrianT — February 24, 2009 @ 8:13 am
“Surely JONAH must have some statement of faith, just like Exodus has.”
Probably.
Like Exodus, it likely changes for whatever’s convenient at the moment for the potential client.
Comment by Scott — February 24, 2009 @ 4:40 pm
Wayne Besen’s recent attack on JONAH treads a fine line between wilful misrepresentation and actionable libel. While Mr. Besen consults his legal experts, let us set the record straight for the upmteenth time. I speak as someone who is intimately familiar with JONAH’s activities even though I am not one of its leaders.
(1) Richard Cohen is not JONAH’s “leading therapist.” Indeed, JONAH works directly with several counselors at its own Institute and Richard Cohen is not one of them. Richard Cohen has proven to be an effective counselor for several of our Jewish strugglers (including Orthodox ones.) We have never received a negative report as to any inappropriate behavior on his part (such as attempts to indoctrinate Christianity.)
(2) Neither Mr. Cohen nor any others “recruit” clients for JONAH. Rather people with unwanted same-sex attractions seek out JONAH for its services. Individuals who believe that a gay identity does not work for them are JONAH’s client base. Therefore, neither parents nor any third parties are involved.
(3) To suggest that JONAH “promotes” right wing Christian beliefs or introduces Christianity missionary work of any sort is beyond belief. This claim which defies imagination is not only an outright falsehood but is contradicted by the innumerable reputable and prestigious Orthodox Rabbis that have consistently endorsed JONAH and its work. While JONAH’s resources may draw upon therapeutic techniques that have proven effective regardless of origin or source of development, it is a far cry to suggest JONAH is a “Christian front group” because a particular modality was developed by a non-Jew. Would Mr. Besen refuse medication developed by someone who does not believe as he does, whether that be an evangelical Christian, a Buddhist or an Observant Jew (none of which describes Mr. Besen’s belief system) ?
(4) JONAH’s present clientele consists of approximately 80% Orthodox Jews. These men are scrupulous about Halachic observance, taking pains that the strictures of Shabbat and Kashrut are observed — even in challenging conditions such as the various healing retreats recommended by JONAH. When in doubt, these men consult their (Orthodox) rabbis , who without exception have endorsed the healing process, JONAH, and the therapeutic activities.
Despite running a site under with ambitious title “Truth Wins Out”, Wayne Besen is remarkably cavalier with the truth. It’s almost as if he were not interested in having a genuine dialogue, but was rather resorting to dishonest tactics to shout his opponents down.
We are not going to agree (or even attempt to argue) with Mr. Besen regarding the normality of the gay lifestyle or the possibility of changing one’s attractions. We respect his choice to live as a homosexual, and in turn request that he respect our choice to live our lives according to our values, and demand that he cease and desist from his libelous attacks.
-Ari
Comment by Ari — February 25, 2009 @ 11:05 am
Wayne, can you clarify what a Jewish group should look like?
Comment by Frank — February 25, 2009 @ 11:05 am
Ari,
You seem to be broken, not whole, imperfect.
You seem to be suffering from a disorder, called Besen Syndrome. This is ALL scientific, by the way.
Perhaps you should cure yourself by taking a tennis racket, and beating a pillow with a decal of Wayne’s face on it. Feel free to scream “NO!” with every strike.
If that doesn’t work, wrap a rubber band around your wrist, and snap it each and every time you think of Wayne or Truth Wins Out.
It’s scientific, and it works! Tens of thousands of people walk out of Besen Syndrome each and every day.
Comment by Scott — February 25, 2009 @ 2:05 pm
I would gladly do all of those things you suggest, Scott — except I might be accused of being a one-man Christian front group by the likes of you and Besen.
Comment by Ari — February 25, 2009 @ 3:17 pm
Ari Said: “Wayne Besen’ recent attack on JONAH treads a fine line between wilful misrepresentation and actionable libel.”
Ari, your accusation of possible libel is libelous. If you have a case, bring it on. If not, then stop your innuendo and misinformation.
The fact is, JONAH is a Christian front group. I dare you to take me to court. I’d prove it in a heartbeat.
To reiterate – file your case or stop making empty threats. I pray that you sue us. Personally, I’d love to appear in court and expose the quack therapy of ex-gay organizations.
Finally, any Rabbi that endorses JONAH must so dislike homosexuality, that he would prefer a straight Christian to a gay Jew.
These are the facts. Deal with them.
Comment by Wayne Besen — February 25, 2009 @ 4:43 pm
Ari:
There is one more possibility. Any Rabbi that supports JONAH does not actually know much about JONAH. They see Mr. Cohen’s name and think that it is a Jewish organization. I doubt they know he is a born again Christian with hardcore beliefs.
Comment by Wayne Besen — February 25, 2009 @ 7:28 pm
Wayne,
First, let me say I am glad we’re having a civil discussion.
We’re well aware of Richard Cohen’s Christian beliefs and no-one makes any secret of it. He is a therapist, one of many. You’ve never gone to a Christian doctor? Also, I am not sure why you chose to single out a particular therapist, out of the dozen or more that JONAH works with.
I don’t want to start an argument about whether or not it is possible to change one’s attractions. You’ll claim that it’s a proven scientific impossibility, I’ll cite my personal story as well as those of close friends, and we’ll just end up having one big shouting match.
Why can’t we agree to live and let live? I can’t speak for the other organizations, but JONAH has certainly never engaged in demonization, bigotry or gay-bashing. If a man can legitimately want to be free from attractions to, say, animals or children, why must his desire to free himself from same-sex attractions be deligitimized?
The idea of changing one’s sexuality seems to provoke a disproportionate amount of ire. We happily accept that people can stop being overeaters, compulsive gamblers, drug addicts, and so on. We have entire industries built on self-help and self-improvement, which are grounded in the premise that personalities and behavior patterns can be radically altered. And yet the idea that a man can change his same-sex attractions and be relieved of the urge to act on these has drawn inexplicable vehemence.
We do not claim that change is for everyone. Yet even the men who’ve tried to change through JONAH and ultimately failed, reverting back to the gay lifestyle, by and large remain grateful to JONAH and the tools it’s given them. We continue to love and support them, and certainly haven’t turned our back on them.
We respect your right to live as a gay man. We also respect your right to your belief that change is impossible. Why can’t you respect and honor our desire to free ourselves of same-sex attractions (however futile and misguided it might seem to you)?
Calling JONAH a Christian front-group is simply inaccurate. I am sure it’s an honest mistake on your part. Feel free to peruse the JONAH website or ask any questions — we have nothing to hide. Call us foolish, claim that we’re trying to do the impossible — but please don’t blatantly mischaracterize us.
Comment by Ari — February 25, 2009 @ 8:16 pm
I was active in Jonah for ~5 years and am now an openly gay man. I read with interest this article by WB thinking that he must be talking about a different JONAH than the one I experienced. In my 5 years involved with JONAH, none of the leaders of any of the retreats ever tried to push Christian ideology on to me — actually, they did quite the opposite by encouraging me to practice my faith and birthright. At one point when I was falling religiously, it was a Catholic priest who encouraged me to honor the religion I was born in to. Same with Richard Cohen, while he may have gone through his own religious journey, he never pushed Christianity on me.
As for JONAH, they never claim to be an Orthodox Jewish organization – it just so happens that most of the Jews that walk through Jonah’s doors are of the Orthodox affiliation (just like it’s religious Christians who join Exodus). Jonah does recommend therapists “with beards”, however, when choosing a therapist its best to use one whom you have a connection with – whether they have a beard themselves, or worship someone who does.
Comment by JML — February 25, 2009 @ 8:42 pm
“We’re well aware of Richard Cohen’ Christian beliefs and no-one makes any secret of it. He is a therapist, one of many. You’ve never gone to a Christian doctor?”
Cute answer, but it avoids the topic. I can go to a Christian doctor when my back hurts. But, like most Jews, I go to a Jew for spiritual advice. It is a shame that JONAH does not share my beliefs. As I said, the group is a Christian front. It does not create “ex-gays”, but it very well may create ex-Jews.
As for JML’s comments.
Cohen is an evangelist and very open about it. He evangelizes in his book – and JONAH urges people to read ‘Coming Out Straight.” So, who are you kidding when you say you were not exposed to Christian evangelism?
Incontrovertible fact – no Jew enters JONAH and reads their recommended material without being directly exposed to hard core Christianity. So, please, stop denying this reality.
Comment by Wayne Besen — February 25, 2009 @ 11:49 pm
Wayne Besen is engaging in patent dishonesty, though I give him credit for leaving up mine and JML’s comments.
“like most Jews, I go to a Jew for spiritual advice. It is a shame that JONAH does not share my beliefs. As I said, the group is a Christian front. It does not create “ex-gays”, but it very well may create ex-Jews.”
JONAH’s clients don’t go to therapists for “spiritual advice” — they go to heal childhood and adolescence wounds. Can you produce a single Jew who turned Christian through JONAH? Didn’t think so.
“Incontrovertible fact – no Jew enters JONAH and reads their recommended material without being directly exposed to hard core Christianity. So, please, stop denying this reality.”
Well, case closed — you win. Oh, wait — JONAH specifically tells its members to skip over the Jesus parts and focus on the psychiatry and the techniques (in Cohen’s and others’ writings).
If Besen cared to actually talk to the real people involved in JONAH, he’d get to the truth in a second. It’s a phonecall/emal message away. All this exchange proves is that Wayne Besen of Truth Wins Out doesn’t actually give a damn about the truth.
[Notice also his recurring rhetorical devices: "These are the facts. Deal with them." and "please, stop denying this reality". You sure know how to construct a convincing argument, Wayne.]
Comment by Ari — February 26, 2009 @ 5:18 am
Ari Says: “Well, case closed ‚Äî you win. Oh, wait ‚Äî JONAH specifically tells its members to skip over the Jesus parts and focus on the psychiatry and the techniques (in Cohen’ and others’ writings).”
hahahahahhaahhahaahhaahhahaahhahahahahahaha
Skip over the Christian parts of Born Again books. You are right, Ari, cased closed.
Thank you.
Comment by Wayne Besen — February 26, 2009 @ 9:48 am
All right, Wayne, you’ve figured us out. Can you do us a big favor though? Can we keep this Christian-front-group stuff on the DL? We wouldn’t want any mainstream Jewish organizations like Jewish Press to find out about JONAH or what we’re doing… Oh no, we couldn’t possibly handle the publicity. The last thing we need is people visiting our website and looking at our literature and testimonials. Wouldn’t want to draw any big rabbis’ or yeshiva heads attention to us either. Just let us do our subversive hardcore evangelical born-again Christian missionary work in peace…
Comment by Ari — February 26, 2009 @ 11:04 am
Ari:
What is your official position with the JONAH? I want to make your quote part of my presentation.
“Well, case closed ‚Äî you win. Oh, wait ‚Äî JONAH specifically tells its members to skip over the Jesus parts…”
This was just rich. It reminds me of someone going to weight watchers and the instructor saying, “we tell clients they can eat cupcakes, but don’t focus on the part with the calories.
Wow, this will get good laughs in my presentation. Thanks again Ari for proving my original point and making my job easy.
Comment by Wayne Besen — February 26, 2009 @ 11:16 am
I have no official position with JONAH — I am a regular SSA struggler. As long as you’re spreading lies about us, don’t forget the child molestation and satan worship.
Comment by Ari — February 26, 2009 @ 11:20 am
Wayne, if you’re having trouble grasping the idea of selective reading, I believe they offer remedial classes…
Comment by Ari — February 26, 2009 @ 11:22 am
Wayne – Ok, I can see what you’re saying in terms of exposure. Yes, reading Richard’s book and especially Alan Medinger’s book “exposes” one to religious beliefs. I even received the New Testament from some Christian at a Love Won Out conference with post-it notes on certain verses that read “Read Here”. Not only did I leave with my “ex-gay is ok” pin, but received a reprinted copy of “Jesus: Not Just a Carpenter”. I agree with you that there is exposure to Christianity in many of the books on the ex-gay movement (though, you can’t really argue that for LWO because that *is* a religious conference). However, Jews and Christians handle reparative therapy in very different ways – while many (not all) use Spiritual Therapy to overcome their SSA, Jews are a bit more therapeutic about it all. While figuring out your connection with G-d is a component of “healing”, most of the healing is done outside of the spiritual context and more on the cognitive side. I remember too, being told to “skip over the Jesus parts” and if i remember correctly, some of the books are currently being “cleaned up” to de-Jesus them so they can be read by another audience.
Wayne – Im not challenging your views on the efficacy of the ex-gay movement, Im only saying that from my personal opinion, I was never challenged spiritually – but then again, I was always strong and confident in my Jewish identity. But the truth is, if a Jew does find comfort in Jesus in his path along “recovery” I would respect his adult-thinking decisions – though, I still believe that born-a-jew-always-a-Jew.
Comment by JML — February 26, 2009 @ 11:26 am
“…if i remember correctly, some of the books are currently being “cleaned up” to de-Jesus them so they can be read by another audience.”
Yes, I actually wrote an article about this over at XGW – how Christian reparative therapy techniques – many of which focus on coming to “Christ” in order to “nail your sin to the cross” and get over teh gheyness – are “sanitized” for a Jewish audience. This is extremely deceptive. Even if they were completely Jesus-free, I would not want to contribute even a dime to a group that is consistently trying to dupe my people into converting to “Hebrew Christians” and herd us all into living in Israel as quickly as possible so that we can die during Armageddon.
Comment by Emily K — February 26, 2009 @ 3:15 pm
JML – thank you for responding. But, while you may be secure in your beliefs, these groups prey on those who are not. In short – you are not their target market, but the person sitting next to you may have been ripe for conversion, which would suit Richard Cohen just fine.
Comment by Wayne Besen — February 26, 2009 @ 5:15 pm
http://www.truthwinsout.org/pressreleases/twos-besen-speaks-monday-at-broadway-for-a-new-america/
While JONAH can’t “change” gay Jews into straight ones – you can make a difference by supporting The Jewish Alliance for Change. This organization is supporting marriage equality with a star bedecked concert on Monday – which I will speak at.
I urge you to come and show support and let friends know about it.
http://www.jews4change.com/
Some of the JONAH members in the closet should also attend to learn that they can be okay with who they truly are.
Comment by Wayne Besen — February 26, 2009 @ 5:42 pm
LOL at Ari’s attempt to counter Wayne’s argument by saying no one had ever been converted to Christianity.
Yeah, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they’ve never actually successfully stopped anyone from being queer, either. That’s because they’re all full of shit. All these organizations do is create self-loathing in queer people that takes them twice as long to undo once they come to their senses and realize the hard truth: YOU CANNOT CHANGE YOUR DESIRES.
Admission of their own failure does not mean they aren’t a fundamentally hateful, dishonest organization. As a Jew, I am deeply ashamed that any Jews are affiliated with JONAH and deeply appalled that they would have anything to do with this Christian-front organization which is borrowing tactics from the so-called Jews for Jesus.
News flash to struggling Jewish queers out there: You can be Jewish and queer. You just need to get away from the self-loathing Jewish queers and find the rest of us. We’re out there.
Comment by Eve — February 26, 2009 @ 11:55 pm
I’m in and out of this forum – usually I don’t put in my two cents, but I can’t resist :)
I’m an Orthodox Jew who was in therapy with Dr. Joe Nicolosi for eight years (on and off). He NEVER mentioned Jesus to me, let alone any imagery of a crucifix. If anything, my faith as a Jew (as well as my belief that Christianity goes against Jewish theology) has soared.
When Nicolosi did make mention of his faith in broader terms, I found myself respecting his beliefs as he was speaking from his heart. I know this because our talks were heart to heart. The focus of my therapy was building trust, so that I could love from a place of strength rather than pain.
JONAH puts up literature written by Christians because that’s what’s available. Jews haven’t written yet from their perspective (save for Arthur Goldberg’s book – speaking of which, if you really want to know the truth about JONAH, read it – he’s JONAH’s co-director – the book is called “Light in the Closet”). Of course Christian writers use Christian imagery and ideas – that’s how they experience the world. Their beliefs should be respected.
Stop bashing JONAH, people. They’re not a front for Christian evangelism. That’s just libel. Besen, you’re full of shit, and I hope the rest of you recognize that.
Over and out..
S
Comment by S — February 27, 2009 @ 1:16 am
So tell me Ari, who is the Messiah?
Comment by Emily K — February 27, 2009 @ 1:32 am
A brief comment to Ari and to S —
By way of background —
I am NOT Christian, or Jewish, or in fact monotheistic — however, I was Christian, in fact, I was evangelical Christian — for a number of years after the death of my parents when I was a teenager. I was ordained in one of the “fundevangelical” churches and was youth minister for a time in a parish that at that time was associated with the A of G, before I finally realized that I did not believe most of what they did — and left.
My life partner was born in Judaism and attended Yeshiva. He became a “secret” atheist when he was 8, but he was bar mitvahed (spelling?) to please his parents, and in fact never told them that he did not believe until they died when he was a teen (yes we have a fair amount in common in addition to our 17 years together). He eventually returned to faith, but not to patriarchal monotheism, he became a goddess worshiper. I followed him finally a couple of years ago, leaving mainstream Christianity – which I joined after leaving fundevanglicalism — and joining his temple (we were planning our children – one of whom is now 6 months old [surrogacy] and another yet to be born and wanted to be in a solidly loving and non-judgmental religion that would help them flourish — we do not believe monotheism does so — therefore…)
These days I hold a terminal degree (not in theology) and work for a major university [full disclosure, I am a tenured Professional, not Academic member of faculty, with teaching responsibilities] . My beloved works with ED 1 and 2 teens through a regional organization. Both of us love what we are doing and our relationship has now outlasted nearly every straight couple we know. We love each other and our wonderful baby daughter.
So there is the basis of my knowledge — a lot of practical experience and quite a bit of formal training.
1. I have never met an evangelical or fundamentalist Christian that did not constantly work to “plant the seed” in all they encountered. I remember myself trying to figure out ways to do so when I was in situations where outright evangelism was impossible. I often did succeed.
2. The idea of selective reading has little in common with the reality I see with students. I do not teach Critical Inquiry — but, for example, in MIS — when the text I use trumpets the unbounded rights of the corporation and the inappropriateness of individuals claiming privacy for themselves (which two editions of it did) I found that as a fair instructor, I had to give detailed alternatives to what the book said — or, even if it was not part of the lessons, the students would parrot the author. Even strong privacy advocates would be shaken — and the idea of personal freedom would become fuzzier for the students exposed to the book. I ended up creating a complete lesson to discuss the issues that the text author raised — and provided alternatives, so that students would know that there were multiple sides to the issues and consider all of them. I feel compelled to give this answer because I speak with sure knowledge — I initially told classes to skip the parts of the reading that I felt were not helpful — it did not work.
I do not know JONAH, but I know of no “ex-gay” organization that recommends or encourages deliberate critical thinking skills — to the contrary as far as I know. I do not believe that most people will address the Christian parts of books differently than the parts that look at anything else. I do not believe that “selective reading” will exist in the vast majority of cases — and absent a strong program of critical inquiry, I do not believe that an attempt to read selectively will change the eventual outcome.
3. It is noted that Christian books are used because there are no Jewish books. I’m sorry, I apologize — but that is the lamest excuse that I’ve ever heard. I do not know whether or not JONAH has caused people to convert — certainly, to my everlasting shame, every fundevangelical organization I was ever in did cause people to convert — though that has slowed a lot in recent years, I hear from friends still in the movement. If there are none, and there is a vibrant community, create them. If you aren’t doing that, and no one else is, then have the honesty to admit the possible outcome of using books rooted in another religion.
4. You ask Wayne Besen for a “live and let live” attitude. You say that JONAH does not push people. It doesn’t have to, for the same reason that fundamentalist Christian groups don’t have to — the families do it, the religion does it — JONAH has no need to do it. That doesn’t change the toll of dead boys who have committed suicide because of who they are — a toll that I believe has been exacerbated by the ex-gay movement and the extremism of fundamentalist religions of all stripes. I’m sorry, but no ancient book is worth one little boy — no matter what religion that book is idolized by (and yes, I view all forms of fundamentalism as idolatry — religion should be about divinity — but whether ultra-orthodox or ultra fundamentalist — its always about the book — how to interpret it, what it means, etc. NOT about “G-d.” And before you attempt to claim religion has never caused any of those suicides, I would point out that it is well known that it has, and was actually written in some of the suicide notes.
5. I could write a lot of things — but I’m going to close with this. I know several practicing Orthodox and “Conservodox” straight men who do NOT agree that anything is wrong with homosexuality. Even in that community — the issue is not clear to all of the practitioners. On the other hand, I will never forget being stopped in a rest stop near Rochester New York, where an old battered van full of ultra-orthodox people was stuck. They were going to Chicago, I to Milwaukee. I offered to help them, and I did — it took us two hours — but they didn’t have the money for a tow and to have it fixed, and I couldn’t give them that much, but I had the time to putter — remembering what I learned growing up.
It was, I figured out, a family, with a whole gaggle of boys — ranging from maybe mid 20s down to about 15 or 16. That youngest boy was the eagerest to help, and he did, he got tools out of my car — which is covered in political stickers, and he had a funny look when he brought the tools back — after that he stuck close to me until we finally got the car to go and he talked to me — innocuous, meaningless things — but nonstop. I talked back. At the end he thanked me (though his father didn’t) and so did his older brothers. He waved, and I remember him watching me until the van was out of sight, before I went in to wash up.
In my car trunk, with the tools and a really lousy spare tire, I realized when I put the tools back, were a bag with a number of books. The top one of which was a carefully preserved copy of “Our God Too, an embattled homosexual community fights back” by Thomas Swicegood — a book that helped me enormously when I was a teenager. I knew then he saw it — and instantly realized that he was almost certainly gay — everything from his demeanor (which was different than the other boys) and his gentleness — to his reaction to what I’m sure he saw made me positive. I can only hope that that glimpse of a book, and that 2 hours of handing me tools, talking to me, and listening to me trying not to curse in front of a family so religious helped him, so he can be happy one day.
I am telling the absolute truth when I say to you that when I think of them, I still pray for him. At first I prayed to Christ, but quite a while now, I’ve prayed to the mother goddess. In fact, I will light a candle for him tonight. Thinking about him still makes me tear up — that may be unimaginable to you — but I CARE about people, and I think he needs someone to care — without judgment or hatred — for him. I pray that someone is there for him.
You have no idea what it is like to be free, to know that you are loved, to love others, to care about yourself and to know that you are perfect just as you were created, to feel safe and well and whole as the person you always were — and always will be. I wish I could give that to you — but it is a gift you honestly do not want, and I am sorry. I admit, I feel pity for you, and I will pray also for you.
Blessed be,
Reyn
Comment by Reyn — February 27, 2009 @ 5:43 pm
Reyn, you sum up beautifully why we need to rid ourselves of superstition.
‘S’ above found himself respecting Dr Nicolosi’s beliefs, ‘because he was speaking from the heart.’ (A funny reason, since you could say the same about Fidel Castro, or bin Laden.) Beliefs should not be respected. They should be suspected, deeply.
NARTH, Jonah and other outfits only thrive on superstitious bigotry. If people were not ridiculed, taunted, bullied in this life, or threatened with eternal damnation in the next for being who they are, these businesses would not be viable.
If people, like devout, Ratzinger-loving Nicolosi want to believe a cracker turns into human flesh, fine (Though a man’s ability to survive in a fish for three days is more likely) but, whatever floats your boat. But when these beliefs are used to deny other people civil rights, that is another matter.
Why can’t Narth at least be honest, and give up its secular facade? For instance, in this long discourse on the ‘homosexual animal myth’ – http://www.narth.com/docs/animalmyth.html – one reason in its argument, highlighted is this:
“The laws ruling human behavior are of a different nature and they should be sought where God inscribed them, namely, in human nature.”
It seems to me that at the heart of all Narth’s junk science, which is ridiculed by all other professional bodies, is the phrase ‘where God inscribed them’. The overwhelming evidence is that our behavioural traits, morality, sexuality evolved (yes, evolved) – and has plenty in common with other apes. If ‘God’ did not inscribe them, and hell did not exist, what would be wrong with homosexuality in the first place? And will Narth at least stop lying that it is just there for people dissatisfied with their attractions.
The comment above about the need to ‘sow the seed’ at every opportunity rings true. If Narth respected people’ right to choose their own destiny, they would surely not post a blog from a crazed lunatic stalker, telling of her efforts to repeatedly spam Ellen Degeneres’ website with “change is possible’ nonsense, when Ellen clearly isn’t interested: http://www.narth.com/docs/leaving2.html
It seems, ex-gays cannot help but to attack the dignity of gay people whenever they have the opportunity, whether it’s supporting Prop 8, or like Nicolosi, supporting the ejection of gay people from the Scouts.
Looking through all Cohen’s current testimonials too, it seems his clients’ fears of not living religiously are what drive people.
Comment by adrianT — February 27, 2009 @ 8:16 pm
Reyn, it’s interesting, the more older brothers a boy has, the more likely he will be gay according to recent studies. One theory is that the pregnant woman’s body “feminizes” the fetus in utero, because the fetus is technically a foreign object. The feminization of it makes the woman’s body more apt to “accept” it as it grows. And this might cause the biological predisposition to being gay, on the male side.
Comment by Emily K — February 27, 2009 @ 9:23 pm
To Reyn:
I have been following this thread with interest and amusement, but didn’t feel compelled to reply until I read Reyn’s “brief” comment to Ari and S.
Reyn, I read with interest your story and judge that you fall prey to the same foible that besets all who attempt to understand this issue: narcissism. By that I mean the tendency to impose personal and anecdotal experience onto a complex issue, assuming that your experience is the truth for everyone else.
I invite you, and anyone else who reads this thread, to consider that each man or woman’s experience is unique, and theirs to work out. To assume that what worked for you will work out for anyone else is at least short sighted and at worst presumptuous. I offer as evidence of this judgment your closing remarks to Ari and S.
“You have no idea what it is like to be free, to know that you are loved, to love others, to care about yourself and to know that you are perfect just as you were created, to feel safe and well and whole as the person you always were ‚Äî and always will be. I wish I could give that to you ‚Äî but it is a gift you honestly do not want, and I am sorry. I admit, I feel pity for you, and I will pray also for you.
Blessed be,
Reyn”
Very lovely sentiments, but what gives you the insight or right to assume that neither Ari nor S do not know what it is like to be free or loved. Please forgive me my sarcasm, however it strikes me that your “fundevangelical” roots are showing, because what I get from your statement is that you know what is better for Ari and S and that they would be happier as gay polytheists.
I would like all to consider that the problem here is about fundementalism, which attempts to deny individual experience and truth to others and force their “truth” onto others. I personally find very little difference between Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Gay, or now Polytheistic fundamentalists. Can’t you all allow each man or women their truth, and respect that truth.
Respectfully,
Frank
Comment by Frank — February 28, 2009 @ 1:46 pm
Frank – thanks for the vouch.
I’m actually happier than I’ve ever been in my life right now, after going through the majority of a change process. The friendships that I’ve developed are ones of mutual encouragement for growth, of mutual concern for happiness and welfare… I feel that I am doing things to build the world, to make it a kinder and healthier place… I smile much of the day – I feel more loved than ever. I also have developed clear boundaries in my relationships, which enable this love.
Over and out (again) :)
S
Comment by S — March 1, 2009 @ 5:02 am
Wayne Besen you should wash your mouth out with soap for spreading lies about JONAH.
I am an Orthodox Jew and have been on JONAH for the last six years and want to tell you that JONAH is no way a missionary website.
Its library may contain books with Christian terms written by Christians because there is just not enough books on the market written by Jews.
And so what if Richard Cohen is not a practicing Jew any more what counts is how he managed to stop being or practicing homosexuality.
I am sure that any Jewish parent, orthodox or not would not mind his or hers son or daughter reading a book written by a Christian if it achieves the goal and purpose of leaving homosexuality behind.
Moshe (Married, 2 children, living in Jerusalem
Comment by Moshico — March 4, 2009 @ 7:15 am
Moshico Said: “Its library may contain books with Christian terms written by Christians because there is just not enough books on the market written by Jews”
Reply: There are few Jewish books on the topic because ex-gay ministry is a Christian concept – even for those in the allegedly secular NARTH. There is no basis in Judaism for JONAH. The deal is that Jesus heals and one prays away the gay. You should be ashamed to call yourself an Orthodox Jew who promotes JONAH’s Christian-supportive programs.
Moshico: “And so what if Richard Cohen is not a practicing Jew any more what counts is how he managed to stop being or practicing homosexuality.”
Reply: Have you read his book? He “stopped” though conversion to Christianity. That is central to his method and message. Shame on you for supporting his conversion story and related pro-fundamentalist Christian propaganda.
Comment by Wayne Besen — March 4, 2009 @ 2:26 pm
Mr. Besen,
Now that I understand your fallacious philosophical premise,it is clear why you write so vindictively about JONAH and its programs. You claim, “There is no basis in Judaism for JONAH. The deal is that Jesus heals and one prays away the gay.” What a fascinating sense of jibberish that shows a total lack of understanding about JONAH and its programs. Have you ever read the Torah? the Talmud? Do you understand anything about the concept of teshuvah in Judaism? (It is an internal transformational process of self-reflection, value clarification and study that leads to a by-product of behavior change–a process that precisely parallels JONAH’s approach to helping those desiring to deal with their same-sex attractions.) Are you aware of the multitude of Orthodox rabbis–many of which are considered gedolim (world-class Torah luminaries)–who have not only endorsed JONAH but actively recommend it to those struggling to reconnect with their true selves simply because JONAH’s approach is authentically Jewish and it has successfully helped many individuals? FYI, JONAH’s philosophy has been succinctly stated as an empirically tested conviction that same-sex attraction and behavior are psychologically determined symptoms of other underlying conditions and is based upon a demonstrable track record of treatment success for those who seek it. There is nothing in their approach that speaks to “praying away the gay.” In fact, when it comes to questions about prayer, I have heard their leaders say, “When praying to G-d concerning this issue, the proper pray to G-d is not, “G-d take this away from me” but rather “G-d help me empower myself so that I may courageously face my fears and walk through my pain,thereby enabling me to come out whole on the other side.”
One other point, I am truly amazed at your use of invective and innuendo in attacking the messenger (For example, “You should be ashamed to call yourself an Orthodox Jew who promotes JONAH’ Christian-supportive programs.”) Why don’t you focus instead on substance and carry out a civil discourse with respect for those with whom you may disagree? Please be aware that I am proud to refer to myself as an Orthodox Jew, one who works hard to follow the 613 mitzvot (commandments) provided to us by G-d.
Moshico
Comment by Moshico — March 6, 2009 @ 3:17 am
‘He “stopped” though conversion to Christianity. That is central to his method and message.’
As a Christian myself, I have no objection to anyone converting from any other religion to Christianity if they choose to do so. What I do object to is any attempt to “sell” Christianity to anyone on the basis of false or misleading claims. One such claim would be that converting to Christianity will change your sexual orientation. It won’t – nor should it.
Comment by William — March 6, 2009 @ 4:21 am
Moshico: “What a fascinating sense of jibberish that shows a total lack of understanding about JONAH and its programs.”
Reply: To cut through your wordy and soporific speech and get to the core – yes, I understand full-well that JONAH promotes Christian books and the discredited evangelist Richard Cohen. You can try to disguise the absolute absurdity and inanity of JONAH with lectures about Judaism. But, at the end of the day, they are introducing Jews to hard core, right wing evangelism. This is an incontrovertible fact, no matter how you try to dress it up.
If most Jews were aware of what Jews Offering New Alternatives to Judaism (JONAJ) was really doing, they would have their doors closed for good.
Comment by Wayne Besen — March 6, 2009 @ 8:51 am
Wayne can you tell me what is good about being gay.
And can you tell me if you are happy about being gay.
Wayne would you like to bring a child into this world and bring him up straight or gay.
Wayne if G-D made man in his image do you want to tell me G-D is gay.
Wayne why are you against a man becoming an ex-gay.
Is this not a free world to choose what we want to be.
If so if some one wants to be ex-gay why can’t he.
Wayne you have a chip on your shoulder.
Wayne stop slandereing JONAH have you nothing better to do in you life.
If you want to be gay then I am happy for you but Wayne I am not happy being gay.
Wayne I have two children how may do you have.
Wayne why don’t you get a life.
Comment by Moshico — March 7, 2009 @ 5:30 pm
Being “gay” as Moshico calls it, means being honest about one’s same-sex orientation.
Moshico appears to prefer dishonesty and parent-bashing.
Children are a great thing for mature, loving, well-prepared parents to have. Unfortunately, Moshico supports the Focus On The Family policy of taking the children away from gay biological and adoptive parents and putting them in orphanages.
Moshico, why do you hate parents whose children happen to be same-sex-attracted? And why would you subject one of your own children to a lifetime of harassment for their choice to be honest about their orientation?
Comment by Mike Airhart — March 7, 2009 @ 7:11 pm
Hey don’t put words into my mouth.
I never had a problem with my parents and they have never had a problem with me.
I don’t hate parents who have same sex attracted children and I don’t hate people who have same sex attraction.
Some of my best friends have same sex attraction just like I have.
Some of them don’t want to change and others like me who want to change.
I give support to those who don’t want to change and they give me support because I do want to change.
The world is made up of free choice and if some one does not want to change that’ fine with me.
But if someone like myself wants to change then I do not expect some one like you to tell me I can not, that’s my choice.
There is enough proof that one can change if they want.
JONAH is a group that’ helps Jews whether religious or not to not have or make less same sex attraction.
I don’t see why you are against some one who is not happy being gay or same sex attracted to change because change is possible, I have friends who have changed.
I use to act out with other men and I have not done so for a few years and I celabrate this.
Okay a man may still attract me that’s fine people can not always change 100%.
I have a wife and a family and I don’t think it would be fair to them if I continued to live a gay lifestyle.
But if you wish that’s fine with me as I said i have very good gay friends but what upsets me is you say its not possible and I am telling you it is.
Looking forward to you next reply.
I am living proof that change is possible
Comment by Moshico — March 8, 2009 @ 4:11 am
If Moschico’s happy, and doesn’t want to force his beliefs on others, then good for him, and I support him, because I support everyone’s right to self determination.
The question is not whether ‘change is possible’ – is it a. desirable? b. likely? In most cases, it’s not.
I only have a problem with people who: a. won’t stop pestering others to change; b. insist on demonizing and slandering gay people in religious and right wing media, whether it’s about ‘life expectancy’ or ‘lifestyle’, or some nonsense written in bronze age texts, by flat-earthers, who knew no science; c. insist on stripping gay people of their rights.
My decision whether to fight tooth and nail against, or show solidarity with, an ex-gay person is based on the person’s willingness to unequivocably condemn the above, preferably publicly.
Comment by adrianT — March 8, 2009 @ 9:07 am
Moshico keeps posting strawman arguments, such as the false suggestion that anyone is trying to stop him or others from trying in vain to change their own sexual orientation.
Moshico also plays word games: He avoids saying what exactly has changed and what has not, and he stereotypes a “gay lifestyle.”
Finally, Moshico refuses to state definitively that JONAH should reverse its policies and officially oppose the rest of the ex-gay movement’s opposition to gay parents, gay adoption, non-discrimination, comprehensive sex education, antibullying programs, and legal recognition of our monogamous life relationships.
Comment by Michael Airhart — March 8, 2009 @ 11:53 am
JONAH does not force any one to join them.
Its people like myself who look to JONAH for help to leave SSA.
Any one who don’t want to leave SSA will not get in contact with JONAH or a like.
Peace be with you, enjoy your life, I have no more time to argue with you.
End of subject. Shalom/peace/blessing to all.
Comment by Moshico — March 8, 2009 @ 12:20 pm
JONAH does not force anyone to become Christian.
JONAH merely promotes and collaborates with Focus on the Family and other evangelical Christian organizations that undermine religious freedom for Jews.
Led by Colorado Springs evangelicals, the Air Force leadership has been curtailing the rights and safety of Jewish servicemen — harassing and demoting personnel who refuse to join in Christian prayers.
Encouraged by Focus on the Family and the ADF, evangelical faculty and board members are using public schools to pressure Jewish students to say Christian prayers — and to bully Jewish students who refuse.
And Jews are no longer welcome on the National Day of Prayer Task Force, which has been commandeered by Focus on the Family.
It saddens me that JONAH has so little self-respect.
Comment by Michael Airhart — March 8, 2009 @ 3:19 pm
Moshico,
JONAH, Focus on the Family, Exodus Int’l, Courage, Evergreen, all the “ex gay” ministries say, “We don’t want to force gays into ex gay therapy, we are here purely for gays wishing to rid themselves of their homosexuality.” but then they go out and condemn anyone who does not agree with them. They constantly argue at length with those who do not buy their junk.
They have even shown up at gay pride events protesting them and pretty much telling everyone, “You CAN change!” What on Earth do all these ex-gay ministries and their mission to rid willing homosexuals of their “unwanted” desires have to do with homosexuals who accept themselves for, and are proud of, who they are?
They don’t have ANYTHING to do with it. They want to distribute their biasful and anti-gay rhetoric to all they could. THAT’S why they go there.
Comment by James — March 8, 2009 @ 3:19 pm
“Peace be with you, enjoy your life, I have no more time to argue with you.
End of subject. Shalom/peace/blessing to all.”
Thank you for leaving Moshico, now that you have no more time to stay and argue, I CAN enjoy my life in blessing and peace!
:)
Comment by James — March 8, 2009 @ 3:21 pm
Sorry but I had to ask a question as I can not let this matter rest, one that you started.
So I want to know how you would feel about JONAH if they throw out all the books in their library that contained Christianity and just spoke about G-D and how the Torah is against Homosexuality and calls it an abomination. That they would never quote Richard Cohen and a like, and only used Jewish sources.
I am sure your answer will lead me into more questions.
Comment by Moshico — March 8, 2009 @ 10:09 pm
Does anybody else see the irony in calling on JONAH to distance itself from the groups that supposedly “demonize” gays while simultaneously demonizing JONAH? Reyn’s rejection of Ari’s suggestion to “live and let live” is very telling. Equally telling is Wayne’s cowardly blocking Ari from making further comments. The fear of having an open debate is a sure sign of a sore loser.
Comment by Lavi — March 9, 2009 @ 1:45 pm
Moshico, YOU are the ones causing problems here. This website opposes all the “facts” that you have said on here. If you come here and start talking like this, then it is you with the problem, because you could just as easily go to some conservative website and speak where people would want to read your BS.
Look, Moshico, I don’t interpret the bible the way you do, I don’t believe what you do, so this little game where you are attempting to save souls by your brand of so-called “educating” is not working and is becoming harassment.
This website has info that vehemently opposes this such info you are giving. I don’t go onto Focus on the Family’s website, JONAH’s website and start “educating” them. What they say is there business, and I wouldn’t be able to go there and say what I want and expect everyone to listen to me because I believe they’re “wrong”.
Now if you do not stop causing problems, I can very easily just email Wayne Besen and ask him to take a look at these posts and if he agrees, he will take yours down.
No one “started” any problems but you……..
Comment by James — March 9, 2009 @ 2:01 pm
Lavi, groups like JONAH and NARTH and Exodus don’t “demonize” gays. they DEMONIZE them, no quotes, no ambiguities. All of their testimonies paint a picture of gay life as nothing but sex, drugs, and clubs. No mention is made of any other sort of lifestyle. But being gay – having attractions to the same sex – is not a lifestyle or a way of life, it’s just a part of one’s being. Parents are blamed for failing at raising their kids to be straight. Unlicensed therapists and unproven, unscientific techniques are used to “heal” something that isn’t even broken in the first place.
Comment by Emily K — March 9, 2009 @ 2:36 pm
My dear James its not me who started this problem but Wayne for his comments about JONAH.
And I hate to see people like you get so upset it really hurts me as I have feelings.
I have always said live and let live and as I have said if people are happy living a gay life thats fine with me but some of us are not and that’s not BS.
As I don’t want to upset you or any one else I shall make this my last post.
But just want to say one thing if there is any one reading this and is not happy with how they are living there lifestyle then you do have a chance to change that no matter what any one else tells you, just look for G-D.
But if you are happy then you have my blessings.
All my love Moshico
Comment by Moshico — March 9, 2009 @ 5:13 pm
If anyone isn’t “happy living their lifestyle” then they need to change their lifestyle. And having attractions to the same sex is not a lifestyle.
If you’re partying too much, stop partying.
If you’re eating too much, try moderation.
If you’re doing drugs, try rehab.
If you’re hanging around gays that you think have a bad influence on you, find new friends and healthier hobbies.
Being gay isn’t the problem. The choices people make in life are what lead to problems.
Comment by Emily K — March 9, 2009 @ 6:11 pm
“My dear James…” I’m not your dear, layoff.
And excuse me, but yes I’ve tried to change to straight, it didn’t work for me and I’ve yet to meet a gay person that it did work for. The few it did work for (if it did in fact work) have an awesome life and they are happy. But for many (like me) it was harmful and the only peace I’ve ever felt was accepting myself for who I am.
You proclaim that anyone can change. If it is indeed possible for some gay people to change, then it is most certainly not “all” and for the ones it will not work for that may be fooled by this trickery that you pull, their lives may be at stake because sexual orientation (gay or straight) is natural to the person. It is as natural as breathing and if you try and change it, you’re ripping something out of that person and trying to fit something else in their that doesn’t belong. If you ever wanted to know why many gay people suffer so much from “reparative” therapy, that is why.
If people are having issues with their sexual orientation, then what’s wrong about coping with homophobia and learning to accept themselves for who they are instead of trying an “ex gay” program that may not even work?
Comment by James — March 9, 2009 @ 9:53 pm
Dear JONAH cronies:
Thanks for making my case for me. If you were any better at helping me, I’d have to hire you.
The bottom line is that you are a bunch of tools who have a right wing Christian counselor in Cohen and assign Christian books. No Jew in their right mind would send a friend of family member to your Christian promoting organization.
You can post here 10,000 times, but it does not change these simple and irrefutable facts. Your obsessive commenting just shows how guilty you truly are.
Comment by Wayne Besen — March 9, 2009 @ 10:31 pm
Observations from an interested bystander:
To the Jonah Cronies:
Give it up guys. This is an activist site, not a site for healing or open dialogue. TWO has an agenda and they do what they need to do to promote that agenda; whether its true or not is irrelevant. For proof of this I quote Jame’s reply to Moshico,
“This website opposes all the “facts” that you have said on here. If you come here and start talking like this, then it is you with the problem, because you could just as easily go to some conservative website and speak where people would want to read your BS.”
Please listen to what James is saying, because in this he is speaking the truth. I invite you to take you discourse to those who will listen and not waste your time or anyone else’s longer; they don’t want to hear it.
To the TWO Cronies:
I invite you to consider that what didn’t work for some, might work for others. As Emily pointed out it is about individual choice, and the freedom for each individual to self-determine what they want from their lives.
It leaves me very sad that the political/social agenda and the agenda of individual healing/self-determination must come into such conflict, and that the existence of the one must threaten the other. I am sad because the ultimate victims are those who are seeking answers and peace in their lives. I fear however that the rhetoric and emotion involved is such that there is very little room for live and let live.
Peace to all,
Frank
Comment by Frank — March 10, 2009 @ 7:22 am
Frank, what might work for a few people, does not work for most people and often *harms* not only those people, but their parents and others who are wrongly blamed for persons’ sexual orientation.
One problem is that JONAH misdiagnoses both bisexuality and problems resulting from abuse as if they were the same as homosexual orientation.
Comment by Michael Airhart — March 10, 2009 @ 8:43 am
“If you’re hanging around gays that you think have a bad influence on you, find new friends and healthier hobbies.
Being gay isn’t the problem. The choices people make in life are what lead to problems.”
**********
THANK YOU, EMILY!
Just as there’s straight people out there who’s a bad influence, there’s also some gay people who’s a bad influence as well.
If your group of friends clubs every night and keeps you out at all hours, when you have a job and bills to pay, then maybe you need to dump them, and move on and find some friends to better fit your PERSONAL lifestyle.
I’ve had to do this at least twice since I’ve been “out”. Life goes on. Plus I haven’t been 21 in a decade, and I don’t have the energy (or money) to be out clubbing and drinking 5 nights a week! LOL
Comment by Scott — March 10, 2009 @ 2:53 pm
Frank, there was no need to say what you said.
What I was TRYING to say (but you distorted what I said like homophobes typically do) is that anyone who opposes what this website does, and who feels the need to be offensive about it, should not be here. Those who support this website, have a right to come on here without having to deal with what “Moshico” and the others like him are saying.
If you don’t have anything nice to say, or all you wanna do is come on here to argue with others and what is posted, then you shouldn’t be on here.
And don’t whine, “Oh! But you’re arguing!” Yeah well I ORIGINALLY did not come here to argue, I originally wanted to come on here and just look at what’s new, but I see distortions and things that are false, I think I have the right to try and fix it. I’ve seen too many gays hurt by the so called “ex gay” experience. If it worked for someone, then fine, but I know it doesn’t always work and I know it has the potential to be harmful. These gays have the right to know the potential harm of “ex gay” therapy before trying it.
Comment by James — March 10, 2009 @ 6:37 pm
Frank: I fear however that the rhetoric and emotion involved is such that there is very little room for live and let live.
Reply: You are so full of it. Who are you kidding? It is the so-called “ex-gay” activists who have gone on million dollar campaigns to limit gay rights – not the other way around. Your lies may work for the stupid or uninformed. But, you are just making a fool of yourself by repeating such propaganda on this site.
Now, go return to your cult and continue stealing peoples’ money by making false promises that won’t ever come true.
Comment by Wayne Besen — March 10, 2009 @ 7:57 pm
Dear Wayne,
thank you for proving my point,
“Give it up guys. This is an activist site, not a site for healing or open dialogue.”
with your own words.
Peace,
Frank
Comment by Frank — March 11, 2009 @ 8:49 am
Frank,
Please leave, you’re not welcome here. This isn’t an activist site. It’s a site that is dedicated to dispelling untruths about homosexuality and “ex gay” therapy.
Why don’t you just stick around people who will listen to you? I mean, if what your people are saying is true, that homosexuality is a mental illness or abnormality and that it causes problems and unhappiness, then I’ll just believe what you’re saying when I get unhappy for being homosexual. Afterall, the “ex gay” ministries do say they are only trying to rid homosexuals of their “unwanted” desires.
But I’m not unhappy for being homosexual and so, consequently I don’t fit those “ex gay” ministries mission in helping to rid homosexuals of their “unwanted” homosexual desires. They are therefore useless to me.
I could never quite get that. Ex gay ministries saying that they just want to help homosexuals get rid of their “unwanted” homosexual desires, but they still distribute their information to homosexuals who ARE perfectly satisfied and happy with their homosexuality. It makes no sense whatsoever.
Comment by James — March 11, 2009 @ 1:51 pm
Frank,
And what you’re doing is taking what I said and you’re twisting it to fit your own purpose. That’s exactly what Focus on the Family, Exodus, Evergreen, and JONAH does. They need to do that because there’s nothing legitimate for them to lean on.
Another reason why this site exists. Thank you Frank for leaving that example. Now what I will do is link to this site whenever I wanna show people how “ex gay” activists distort to get their point across.
But if I’m wrong and you’re right (like you probably think) then you’ll have nothing to worry about, it’ll be me who ends up looking like a fool.
Comment by James — March 11, 2009 @ 2:06 pm
“I could never quite get that. Ex gay ministries saying that they just want to help homosexuals get rid of their “unwanted” homosexual desires, but they still distribute their information to homosexuals who ARE perfectly satisfied and happy with their homosexuality. It makes no sense whatsoever.”
According to “ex-gays”, if you’re well-adjusted, then you AREN’T well-adjusted. Remember – up is down, left is right, and stop means go with these people.
EVERYONE gets unhappy from time to time: I’m unhappy that the economy isn’t in better condition. I’m unhappy because my favorite local record store DOESN’T STOCK ANYTHING BY CAROL DOUGLAS!! But I’m NOT unhappy because I’m a homosexual. That’s the LEAST of my worries! LOL
Comment by Scott — March 12, 2009 @ 2:02 pm
Frank says: “Give it up guys. This is an activist site, not a site for healing or open dialogue.”
Reply: Yes it is an activist site. One that allows significantly more dialogue than any so-called “ex-gay” sham organization. Notice that I let the PR team from Jews Offering New Alternatives to Judaism (JONAH) comment. That is because when you tell the truth you have nothing to hide. It is also why groups like JONAJ don’t allow dissenting voices.
Please take note of the fact we are having this open dialogue on my site. No comparable place exists to share opinions in the so-called “ex-gay” world.
Comment by Wayne Besen — March 17, 2009 @ 8:08 pm
Wayne thank you for this wonderful site, it is at the front lines battling for truth and tolerance!!!
Comment by DaveTheWave — March 18, 2009 @ 1:58 pm