Talk To Action is keeping a tally of nationally known Christian rightist pastors who pray for the death of the president of the United States. That count is now three: Steven Anderson, Wiley Drake, and Peter Peters.
Drake is a former vice president of the Southern Baptist Convention who also served as Alan Keyes’ American Independent Party running mate in the 2008 election. Drake prayed for the death of abortion doctor George Tiller and, after Tiller’s murder, declared that his prayers had been answered.
Peters leads the LaPorte, Colorado, Church of Christ and has been associated several times with white supremacists, including those who killed Jewish talk-radio host Alan Berg.
are you serious ???
These men are satanic, not Christians.
just to clarify, the views, opinions and actions
of these “pastors” do not represent and are not
approved of by the vast majority of the
fundamentalist pastors in this country. to say
that these men are represenative of biblical
christianity would not only be wrong but very
insulting to those that do practice biblical
christianity. for example, no christian pastor
would declare isreal to be the enemy as peters
does, and certianly would not call for the death
penalty for homosexuals. biblical christians
consider isreal God’s chosen people, and pray for
them. In fact God sent his son for the jews first then
the gentile. biblical christians love and pray for
the homosexual, and tries to reach out to them with
compassion (compassion does not equal acceptance
of the sexual sin). suffice it to say
these men do not represent biblical christianity,
so with that in mind I would ask you michael, wayne
and your blog readers to keep this in mind and
not judge all fundalmentalist pastors by a few
off the wall people like those in your post.
Brad, rape is a sexual sin. A consenting acts between adults is not. Anything that does not hurt others is moral. Attempting to oppress something that does not hurt others, like same sex relationships is by definition an immoral act.
Fair enough Brad, but how many times have I heard, or seen on ministry blog sites, fundamentalists justifying condemnatoin of gay sex based on Matt 5:17, were Jesus reportedly comes to uphold the law, ‘every jot and tittle’. It’s the standard defence of the status quo, whenever people say ‘Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. (personally I am inclined to agree with this, since there is no convincing historical evidence for Jesus in the first place). But, even if the Matthew account were true, Jesus either comes to uphold the laws attributed to ‘Moses’ or he doesn’t.
(If you don’t support the death penalty for homosexuals, the only logical position for you is not to support it period.)
We are also reminded by well intentioned Christians that, as far as their god is concerned, there’s no difference between two people of the same sex making love and mass murder. If you really do believe such nonsense, don’t tell us this – tell the relatives of the Virginia Tech victims. On that ground, Steve Anderson’s ludicrous position is more consistent with biblical teaching than most Christians dare to admit.
Adrian, Priya & Brad, we humans didn’t create the laws of God. God did. We may now always like what those laws are. It’s out nature not to. However we do have Jesus to help. God made us & knows our nature & knows it’s not possible without Him to do anything that is good or right. There are degrees of sin but in the eyes of God, sin is sin & He hates sin but loves us anyway. We just have to accept Him & ask Him for forgiveness & admit we are sinners. Sexual sin (every kind) including consensual sex between 2 adults outside of mariage as sin, like it or not. Again, I didn’t make the rules. So a lot of people don’t like it & it is our nature try to justify our actions so we don’t feel guilty. But right & wrong has been written on our hearts, so deep down we know the truth. It is the responsibility of Christians to at least communicate the truth of sin to all people, not just sexual sin. That communication shoud be in a loving manner, however we are human & not perfect & make mistakes. May I suggest picking up & reading the Bible with an open heart & watch to see what God will do in your life! BTW, I am a celibate homosexual & I love God more than I love having sex & I want to get to Heaven. I have never been happier & no I’m NOT delusional!!
So God forbids all homosexual people from forming loving sexual relationships and will lock us out of heaven unless we’re celibate, will he? Not the sort of god that I want to have anything to do with, thank you very much.
If you’re happy, Drew, fine by me. But (and I’m sorry to bore people who have heard this before) – as the late, great Dr Carl Sagan famously said, ‘Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence’.
You make a very big claim, when you say that ‘God created all the laws’. How do you know this information? How do you intimately know his mind on whom we may sleep with, and when? (And how you know your particular god exists, in the first place?).
It does sound like a petty god, to claim that the supposed creator of the universe – with its quintillions of stars – would take specific interest in the preferences on one fairly insignificant mammal species, that inhabits a tiny part of a planet in the outer suburbs of a mediocre galaxy. (I would have thought god would be more concerned that his shoddy attempt at creation was on a direct collision course with the Andromeda galaxy in a billion years, but still…)
Right and wrong may well be ‘written into our hearts’ thanks to the DNA record: it is explained by evolution. We simply have developed a more sophisticated standard of morality than our ape ancestors, based on ‘you scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours’. (To learn more about that, I strongly suggest a book called ‘The Origins of Virtue’ by Matt Ridley)
I don’t recognize the term ‘sin’ in the first place. There is ‘crime’ which implies someone has been harmed in some way. ‘Sin’ does no such thing, and as such, is a useless moral guide.
I put it to you, that you are actually being selfish, when you say “BTW, I am a celibate homosexual & I love God more than I love having sex & I want to get to Heaven.” My apologies for sounding brutal, but it’s about you, your wellbeing. No-one else’s. The whole basis of your morality lies in ‘do as I say or go to hell’. You are acting out of fear, with a gun pointed to your head. You do a right action, only to evade a wrong one. I’m sorry, but that is not morality. It’s masochistic to want this to be true.
[if you take inspiration from various parables, fine. so did non-Christians like Thomas Jefferson]
What rules would you not blindly follow, when your personal salvation is at stake? Why do you ‘love’ people (Fred Phelps says the same thing), or have a need to pass on these rather odd beliefs: because you genuinely want to, or because you are compelled to?
As for the Bible, we know so much more about the the world now, than its authors ever could. I just cannot give them the benefit of the doubt, 150 years after the Origin of Species.
I might take inspiration from the parable of the Talents. How are you going explain to your creator that, despite being blessed with a brain and world full of so much accumulated knowledge about science, philosophy, natural history, astronomy, psychology, and morality, you rejected it and buried it in the ground, and chose to stick with the works of some bronze age peasants instead? If I were god I’d make you come back as a yellowjacket.
I do not believe for one minute God would create someone gay and then demand they remain without love and companionship their whole Earthly life because he calls two men or two women forming a loving and committed relationship a sin. That would be rather contradictory wouldn’t it? And God is not contradictory right? Of course this mentality is from those that believe the Bible is inerrant in every way. Which I thankfully do not subscribe to.
The Bible is not inerrant. Many Bibles have been translated differently over the course of time. Many Christians believe the KJV is the true version. Others do not. They are all currently a translation of a translation from the original manuscripts. How can we as imperfect individuals (which Drew J admits to above) adhere to a belief that the only thing that is without error and perfect in this imperfect world currently is the Bible which we as corrupt individuals have been trusted with since it was compiled into a book in the 5th Century? I have read the Biblical contradictions. I have read the different Bible translations. I have read the added words to some Bibles such as “practicing homosexuals” to 1 Corinthians 6 to denote the difference between those that are celibate homosexuals (saved) and those that are active homosexuals (unsaved). Other Bibles do not note the difference between those that are active and those that are not. What can we conclude from this then? It was added by man. The word homosexual was not even coined until the 19th Century. Why is it in Scripture? Again, added by man.
I have finally come to a place where the Bible is not the BE ALL and END ALL of God. He is still speaking to us. Revealing things. If not, we’d still believe the Sun revolved the Earth and it was the center of the universe. We would still own slaves and also demand women to be silent in church. Yet many of those that call themselves Bible believing have actually turned off their ears (and some their hearts) to what God is saying to them NOW. I’m always so utterly amazed by conservative fundamentalist/evangelical thinking at times.
I’m not saying the Bible is not worthy of being read. It is. But it is hardly inerrant.
Copernicus used algebra – an Arabic innovation – as well as careful, natural observations, to work out our relationship with the Sun. I don’t see how god came into that. Actually, it’s a pity god didn’t save everyone the hassle on Mount Sinai and give us some useful commandments about slavery, treating women and gay people with respect, or how to discover electricity and the internet, instead of lists of things we already know or are just plain silly.
Now, I’m off to go and covet my neighbour’s a*s through the bedroom window….
Jeez what a whirlwind om comments! And of course on the attck. I never said anything attacking any of you.
William, God does not forbid anybody from having a loving relationship. I have been in a loving monagomous realtionship for almost 25 years, the last 2 which of which have been celibate. This was a decision we came to together & we are happy with our choice. I’m not pushing this on anyone. All I’m saying is that if you go to God with a sincere heart that He will begin to change you. We as humans are incapable of doint ot ourselves. You can’t mold God into your image. Is that a terrible thing to say?
As for adrianT – you’re an extremely judgemental person. You call me selfish and masochistic & mock God for His creation. The Bible does state that human beings are the crowning achievement of all His creation. But He gave us a free will & we can believe and do as we please. And I believe that the bible is the inerrant word of God which I’m sure will cause another forestorm of personal attacks. I don’t care. I can believe what I want & you can believe what I want. And Ken R – don’t pretend to know the Bible. Yes He still does speak to human kind today but a lot of people are deaf & blind, again free will to choose. Lastly, adrianT – spoken like a true sinner. Go boy, go covet your neighbors a*s through the window.
Drew J, sorry, by your own belief system whether you are celibate or not in your relationship with another man you are living in SIN. So say good-bye to your male companion of 25 years because whether you believe it or not it is STILL a sin for you to be in that relationship. Only complementary male/female. Sorry. Try again.
Some who rail against gay relationships at the same time have had divorces that have not been because of adultery by one partner. Which Jesus himself says is the only case for divorce. To tell them they are living in adulteress sin they laugh at you and will not admit their own sin. Why? Because they do not see it as sin. Why? Selective reading of Scripture. Just like they do to claim that homosexuality is a sin.
Drew, the Bible is not inerrant. If you believe that fine. I do not. Others do not. I go to God but he has not changed my sexuality one bit in the last 23 years I have been a believer. I have even been in his presence before I became a believer. He had spoke with me. He hasn’t changed your sexual orientation either. So don’t sit there in front of your PC and tell me he will “change” you when you yourself are still gay and living in sin whether you are celibate or not. Live by your belief system Drew. Repent, let the boyfriend go, find a woman to marry, or if you can’t see yourself with the opposite sex, remain celibate, alone, and without the love and comfort knowing that someone else is there with you to help you in time of happiness and in times of despair. God is the only one you need the Conservative Christians will tell you. Leave the loving relationships to the heterosexuals. You are not allowed. This is according to your belief system. Live by it!
Blah blah blah – I never said I wasn’t homosexual or if God has changed that part of me. That’s God’s decision. I can’t change my own spots. Everything is in His time & if He wants me somewhere else or with some one else of the opposite sex, He’ll get me there. If I’m not having sex then how is that a sin? Do we sin because we live with our parents or have a platonic roommate? Don’t be ridiculous! I’m not cherry picking scriptures to fit my beliefs. From your statements you certainly do and then accuse others of it. I don’t know why or how I’m gay, I just am. But I am a sinner just like everyone else. Since when are you an authority on the Bible? I know I’m not but I study it. Man’s word is errant but not God’s. If you want to belive it’s wrong, you have that choice. You are probably smarter than the creator of the universe & everything in it. Spoken like a true fool.
As you say and I quote: ” Leave the loving relationships to the heterosexuals. You are not allowed.” That isn’t biblical & I’ve never heard that or read that & don’t assume to know my belief system. The reason you like to point out others hypocracies is because you are one too, just like us all. None of is perfect & we all sin, whether we have God in our lives or not. So get off your self built pedastal & look in the mirror for a change.
“None of us is perfect & we all sin.”
Fair enough, but sex with one’s lover is not a sin. You say:
“I have been in a loving monagomous realtionship for almost 25 years, the last 2 which of which have been celibate. This was a decision we came to together & we are happy with our choice.”
That’s your decision, and no-one else has a right to criticise it. But what you wrote earlier clearly implies that you believe that God demanded that decision of you and would lock you out of heaven otherwise. That’s the god that I want nothing to do with.
Yes Drew, I sure am being judgmental, it’s morally necessary. [Incidentally, how can I be mocking 'God', when I do not acknowledge the existence of any such being in the first place?]
Now, if you see fit to tell gay people they will face eternity in hell, based on no evidence whatsoever, then you must expect people to question your grandiose claims. What you say is no different from the literature that the placard waving crackpots at gay prides hand out; it all comes down to that rather disgusting ultimatum, ‘follow my rules or burn in hell’.
It’s funny that when people dare to question how you know this information, you crumple up, and claim to be persecuted! Do you not think recipients of your unprovable ultimatum might also be deeply offended? To repeat my challenge: how do you know you are on intimate terms with the mind of god on sleeping arrangements? I’m not going to give a firestorm of ‘attacks’ for believing the bible is inerrant – I do pity you though. But I will ask you for the evidence – and so far you provide nothing to back up your claims.
If you recommend that everyone should read the bible with an ‘open mind’, I won’t let that go uncriticized. I mean, why don’t we just shut down all the scientific institutions, museums and space missions? It seems, you have better answers!!!
And I make no apology for labeling you as selfish. You freely admitted your motive is to get eternal life for yourself. This sounds like a bribe. I see nothing virtuous in this. In fact it has the “I was just following orders” ring to it.
PS Coveting is a good thing – it drives market economies and innovation.
Oh, Drew, don’t kid yourself. I have been over and over with this type of thinking with those that think homosexuality is sin (including ex-gays) and their belief system that heterosexuality prevails. Regardless if you have sex or not, if the man you live with is in fact your partner and referred to as such it is sin to have that relationship. Male/Female couplings only. That is what you believe God has ordained. The best you can hope for is to remain good friends.
Living 25 years with someone that you’ve loved more than life itself with the possibility that he could eventually leave you, marry a woman, and then start a family wouldn’t definitely tear at your heart? You would want to die. How can a loving and perfect God want such a thing for his children? But if that is what you believe. Enjoy it.
When I point out how divorce is a sin those that condemn gays call it an unfortunate mistake. But if I say I am gay I’m condemned, called foul names, and in the end Bible passages are thrown in my face! Praise God that I am not condemned! Praise God they are not my judge!!
I don’t regard myself as a Bible literalist or a great authority on it Drew. Or believe the Bible is God’s perfect word. Its still written by the hand of flawed and corrupted men. Inspired word is more like it. Not inerrant. To state it as such smacks bibliotary (worship of the Bible) to me.
Remember, Jesus himself is God’s perfect word. Even the Bible states that in John 1. The bible needs to be read, as it always has been in the past, in the context and in the time it was written in. And I know many, like you, believe that “The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it”, type of thinking. I do not come from that point of view.
But if your happy, Peace be with you. I wish no ill will towards you. I just don’t agree with your version of Christianity.
Drew, your god is imaginary. This imaginary being did not create humans and did not create any laws. The only laws we have were created by humans, that’s the way its always been and will always be. You say ” I never said anything attacking any of you.”.
That’s a lie. You attacked every LGBT person by falsely claiming they’re doing something wrong by being in a loving same sex relationship. You want to live a life of deprivation and loneliness by all means you’re welcome to do so. But keep your mental disease to yourself, stop trying to spread the false idea that there is something wrong with doing that which harms no one – there isn’t.
Some very interesting, albeit, bickering and un-Christlike character slapping going on in here a few time but otherwise some well thought out entries and statements. I’m so glad that Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit which are ONE, are so much more than any of us can imagine. In closing, how come the city code allows donkey’s in the bedroom? LOL