One byproduct of natural disasters like the Haitian earthquake is that they tend to expose the utter insanity of some Religious Right leaders. While some, like Rick Warren, have openly condemned Pat Robertson’s grotesque remarks, others have taken the opportunity to double down on the crazy and expand on Robertson’s claims that a “deal with the devil” in 1825* brought a heavenly curse upon the nation of Haiti. First up, we have Albert Mohler, president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Mohler begins a piece entitled “Does God hate Haiti?” with something that comes frighteningly close to factual information, at least for him:
The earthquake that will forever change that nation came as subterranean plates shifted about six miles under the surface of the earth, along a fault line that had threatened trouble for centuries. But no one saw a quake of this magnitude coming.
Okay, good, Mohler does seem to understand that plate tectonics cause earthquakes, as opposed to God gritting his teeth or something. Incorrect, though, is the contention that “no one saw a quake of this magnitude coming.” In fact, a geoscience professor stated just last week that he was far more worried about a devastating earthquake on the Enriquillo-Plantain Garden Fault, the one which runs through Port-au-Prince, than he was about a “big one” devastating the West Coast anytime soon. Another seismologist explained that this fault has been “locked” for around 200 years, causing pressure to build. Indeed,**
Geologic groups have been monitoring the area for decades, and a University of Texas team has been keeping a close eye on the Enriquillo-Plaintain Garden Fault. Two years ago at the 2008 Caribbean Geological Conference, the Austin-based group asserted that there was enough stress built up to cause a magnitude 7.2 earthquake, Nature News reported (Scientific American is part of Nature Publishing Group).
So, no, Albert Mohler, this is not a surprise. Then again, I don’t expect that Albert Mohler reads much Scientific-American. But here’s where Mohler decides to scrap the science and out-Robertson Robertson:
In truth, it is hard not to describe the earthquake as a disaster of biblical proportions. It certainly looks as if the wrath of God has fallen upon the Caribbean nation. Add to this the fact that Haiti is well known for its history of religious syncretism — mixing elements of various faiths, including occult practices. The nation is known for voodoo, sorcery, and a Catholic tradition that has been greatly influenced by the occult.
No, Albert. It only “looks like the wrath of God” to people who cling to an illiterate nomad’s concept of natural disaster, where every lightning bolt or clear day is a sign of the wrath or favor of the gods.
Haiti’s history is a catalog of political disasters, one after the other. In one account of the nation’s fight for independence from the French in the late 18th century, representatives of the nation are said to have made a pact with the Devil to throw off the French. According to this account, the Haitians considered the French as Catholics and wanted to side with whomever would oppose the French. Thus, some would use that tradition to explain all that has marked the tragedy of Haitian history — including now the earthquake of January 12, 2010.
Does God hate Haiti? That is the conclusion reached by many, who point to the earthquake as a sign of God’s direct and observable judgment.
“Some would use that tradition”? “That is the conclusion reached by many?” Many who, Albert? Because by my count, it’s you, Pat Robertson, Gary Cass (more on that in a minute), and a few other wingnuts on Twitter. The rest of us understand that natural disasters strike due to natural causes, and are easily explained by science. But I’ll remember that the next time disaster strikes in an area full of fundamentalist Christians.***
God does judge the nations — all of them — and God will judge the nations. His judgment is perfect and his justice is sure. He rules over all the nations and his sovereign will is demonstrated in the rising and falling of nations and empires and peoples. Every molecule of matter obeys his command, and the earthquakes reveal his reign — as do the tides of relief and assistance flowing into Haiti right now.
Again, no. Earthquakes reveal plate tectonics at work.
Does God hate Haiti? God hates sin, and will punish both individual sinners and nations. But that means that every individual and every nation will be found guilty when measured by the standard of God’s perfect righteousness. God does hate sin, but if God merely hated Haiti, there would be no missionaries there; there would be no aid streaming to the nation; there would be no rescue efforts — there would be no hope.
Oh, if God merely hated Haiti, he wouldn’t have sent missionaries or humanitarian aid. Isn’t that sort of parallel to an abusive husband who says he’s sorry and brings flowers and promises never to do it again, at least until next time? Gross. I could go on deconstructing Mohler’s words line-by-line but your blogger is on pain medication right now, so he doesn’t really have the patience. But if you want more crazy from Al Mohler, read that whole piece, and then click here to read the additional bat crazy things Mohler said on the radio today.
Okay, so as I said before, Gary Cass of the Christian Anti-Defamation Commission also opened his mouth to defend Pat Robertson today, and it wasn’t pretty. You ready? Go:
Gary Cass, chairman and CEO of the Christian Anti-Defamation Commission, issued a statement saying that while Robertson’s comments made him an “easy target” for criticism, they are essentially theologically sound.
(…)
Cass suggested one reason Robertson’s message is so unpopular is that it forces people to face the spiritual dimension of their lives.
“As long as everything is going well we live as if we are never going to die,” he said. “Then crisis hits and death slaps us in the face. Rather than humbling ourselves and searching our hearts like the Pilgrims did, we lash out at God and anyone who dares insinuate Him into our lives.”
“A simple reading of the Bible shows how God uses natural disasters to further his purposes,” Cass said. “Earthquakes, floods, famine, locusts, etc. they’re all there, but man hates it. Rather than humbly acknowledging that God’s ways are not our ways, man rails against and accuses God. The last thing they will do is cry out for his mercy in Jesus Christ.”
Uhhhh, no. The reason Robertson’s message is unpopular is because Robertson decided that a natural disaster where tens of thousands are dead and millions are homeless would be a good time to pour salt in the wound and start criticizing the religious beliefs of the society currently suffering. Robertson’s message didn’t “force people to face the spiritual dimension of their lives,” it forced people to face the fact that iron age religious dogma is still with us, and even Pat Robertson’s co-religionists are embarrassed.**** And yes, it’s true that when you read the Bible, you find stories about God punishing people with natural disasters. But that claim is no longer valid, since we now understand that weather patterns cause hurricanes and tornados, trouble in the water cycle causes droughts, and shifting plates cause earthquakes! It doesn’t have a damn thing to do with voodoo! I actually think it’s beyond obscene that, in the year 2010, I’m actually writing a blog post to counteract these sorts of ideas. And I really don’t know what bizarro parallel reality Gary Cass lives in, but I don’t see a lot of people shaking their fists at the heavens over this, as he seems to think. Rather, people are acknowledging that tragedy can strike anywhere, and that when it happens to others, especially “the least of these” (some guy said something about that, I seem to remember), you step up and do what you can to help your fellow man, because it could have just as easily been you.
Also? The comment about the Pilgrims “humbling” themselves is cute, considering the fact that the first American settlers began a campaign of genocide against the native American peoples, the results of which are still strikingly obvious to anyone who’s ever studied the history of the American Indians.
Anyway, rant over. If you’re like me, your teevee has been on a lot the past couple of days, showing scenes of devastation and injured, suffering people. I contributed earlier to Doctors Without Borders/M?©decins Sans Fronti?®res (MSF), and if you have anything to give, I encourage you to do so, either to them or a number of other wonderful organizations.
*Man, that God holds a grudge for a long time! He’s so Joe Lieberman in that regard…
**That Scientific-American link is really interesting, by the way. It even states that, according to some scientists, the Port-au-Prince quake may not have been the biggest one the Caribbean could face in coming years. It also discussses other vulnerable areas around the world, with large, active faults and populous cities which really aren’t prepared, such as Tehran and Lima, Peru. So you should read that link.
***Actually, no, I won’t. Because I have a human soul. If something awful and tragic happens in an area near and dear to Christian Fundamentalists, I’ll get out my debit card and make a donation to Doctors Without Borders, the American Red Cross, and whatever else I can do to help the relief effort. And I’ll encourage others to do the same, without trying to score religious or political points off of other people’s suffering.
****Seriously, get on Twitter and search “Pat Robertson.” Every other message is a Christian making sure everyone knows that Pat Robertson does NOT speak for her, and encouraging people to support and pray for the people of Haiti.








I think that you missed the entire point of Mohler’s piece. I read it in its entirety and I got out of it that you can’t link this earthquake to Haiti’s voodoo tradition and the pact that is mentioned in their history. What he did say was that no matter what happens, God is still in control and is sovereign. God WILL judge sin in the end for everyone, everywhere. God was not surprised by the earthquake because He is the Creator of all things and created the Earth. Great job taking his comments out of context with a predetermined meaning of each of his comments to match your disdain for Christ. As a matter of fact, I believe that what Mohler was saying in his piece was that Pat Robertson blaming this specifically on the pact was wrong. If you don’t believe this, look at his comments on Nazi Germany, killing fields of Cambodia, Hurricane Katrina in the piece as well.
Uh, yes, but he doesn’t repudiate the notion that God personally punishes nations with natural disasters.
He just danced around it.
Brent the only judging of sin will be done by humans in this life. Anyone who escapes judgement until death will have gotten away with it.
So, just where does one GO in order to apply for a pact with the devil… Hollywood? The White House? The Vatican? Masonic Temple? Edge of a volcano? Maybe the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary?? I guess Haiti. kerAYZeeee.
Maybe God does judge with natural disasters. Who are we to tell God what to do? I loved Mohler’s article. I didn’t see anything wrong with it. He said all disaster is a byproduct of sin and God hates sin. I don’t see how that can be argued. “If God hated Haiti, he wouldn’t have missionaries there.” What’s wrong with that? Well, I guess if you’re not a Christian, you can’t understand the viewpoint that we come from. I don’t know why you feel the need to tear down a perfectly legitimate article. This is not a religious right view, this is a view in light of the Gospel. We are fallen, god hates sin, we won’t understand everything, but it all happens for a reason. God knows and God plans everything out. To look at this from an inferior human view is not what a Christian does. I don’t know why this happened, and I wish it wouldn’t have, but God knows and that’s all that matters.
It’s not about telling God what to do. It’s about holding the same opinions on disasters as illiterate nomads. We now know better. We can predict where earthquakes are likely to hit, and it has less than nothing to do with “sin.” To attribute things like that to God’s judgment is not only ignorant, it’s evil.
These things do not happen “for a reason.” They happen because they happen. Because we live, not in a “fallen world” (Genesis has been disproven and shown to be a myth, and if you lose Genesis, you lose the entire story of “original sin.”), but rather in a universe that’s alive and beautiful and grotesque, and that really doesn’t care about our survival. Perhaps this is less comforting to some people, but I find it more comforting, because I don’t have to do spiritual gymnastics in explaining why a couple hundred thousand people just died in Haiti while Rush Limbaugh continues to thrive. Things happen because they happen. New Orleans flooded because it’s in a precarious location and its levee systems hadn’t been reinforced. If they had, “God’s judgment” would have been curtailed. Tornadoes wreak havoc on the Midwest and the South, not because God hates the Bible Belt, but because weather patterns in those areas create the conditions which cause tornadoes to form.
This is elementary.
And Mohler’s article was more of the same jacked-up, willfully ignorant tripe.
What does Rush Limbaugh have to do with anything? Also, Genesis has not been shown to be a myth. What is your proof? How did weather begin? How did the Earth begin? How did the first drop of water form? These are not elementary issues. If you have all the answers, then please explain to me how a brain stores information and remembers things. These are questions that science cannot answer. Science, though limited, is fantastic and it proves more and more that there must be some intelligent creator. The odds are better for that than for things just happening. Your simple mind has distilled huge topics into points that only support your argument, and that’s okay if you want to live with limited insight. By saying these things, you have insulted some of the greatest minds the world has ever known. They had the wisdom to know that the world is too complex for things just to happen. Maybe you feel enlightened because you have a more liberal point of view. I would say that you, by discounting other viewpoints, have the most limited point of view, and your ignorance blinds you to even seeing this. There are no spiritual gymnastics that need to be done. Al Mohler’s article wasn’t supporting what happened, unless you read it with an agenda in mind. He was stating that what happened was terrible, but also how to handle it from a Christian point of view. You’re obviously not a Christian, so how can you intelligently comment? You can’t, therefore, we get the response you put down which, though it looks intelligent on the outside, is nothing more than ignorance run wild.
Bears Fan: “How did the first drop of water form?”
I suppose 1 hydrogen and 2 Oxygen had a three way. Can you disprove that?
Whoops, I think there were 2 hydrogen and 1 Oxygen, according to the desk clerk at the motel. I got it backwards.
I was always better in history class….
Several things, Bearsfan:
1. The order of Genesis is completely incorrect, by what we know about science.
2. How did “weather begin”? Uh. Well. You see, as the water system formed, it began to cycle throughout the atmosphere. You’d think if it were “intelligently designed,” it wouldn’t produce hurricanes and tornadoes.
3. Science actually IS understanding how our brains store information. It has to do with neurons and different brains have evolved in different ways. You can see the path of evolution as you look at different species with differently evolved brains. For instance, dolphins’ brains are evolved in quite a different way from, say, dogs’ brains.
4. NOTHING about REAL science (i.e. not the life science teachers and weathermen who make up the “intelligunt desine” crowd) points to an intelligent designer! Nothing! Any real evolutionary biologist would laugh at you for that. If you’d like proof, may I recommend that you register as a commenter in the SEED network, where real scientists and researchers talk on their down time. They’ll have a lot of fun with you, I promise.
5. The “odds” you speak of are nowhere near what you think they are. I know you’re probably thinking of the hilarious analogy about Boeing 757s, but real scientists think that comparison is funny, because it’s stupid, and it’s not a reasonable parallel at all.
6. I don’t know what “greatest minds” you’re referring to, but anyone living in current times with the scientific knowledge that’s now available to us and yet rejects it in favor of mythology is a loon.
7. I used to be an Evangelical Christian, so I know the language, therefore I can comment. I have seen the light of reason, and therefore am bilingual in that way. People within the fundamentalist Christian framework can’t see how sick their beliefs are, though. When it’s all you’ve ever been allowed to hear, when nobody has ever pointed out how gross the beliefs really are, it doesn’t compute.
Bear’s fan asked “You’re obviously not a Christian, so how can you intelligently comment?”.
LOL, religiousity is negatively correlated with education. One obviously doesn’t have to be Christian to intelligently comment. The fact that there are things we do not know doesn’t prove there is a god. People once thought the gods caused diseases and the weather, now we know there are natural causes to these things, our previous ignorance didn’t prove god exists. We will continue to find answers to the things we don’t know now that you foolishly claim prove your god exists. I for one have long had a natural explanation for how the brain stores and remembers things.
I’ll respond more later, but where exactly did the oxygen and hydrogen originate from? Also, show me a scientist who claims he can actually understand how and why a brain remembers information. It can’t be done!
On the contrary, macro-evolution has so many holes in it, many scientists believe it to be a joke, and it can just as easily be argued that REAL science can prove the existence of intelligent design, unless you have an agenda and closed mind going into it. I assume you all would.
Uh, that’s because science doesn’t make claims it can’t back up, until they have the evidence.
Unlike religious backwoods types, who insert “GODDIDIT!” for every question they can’t answer, even if others answer them better.
ALSO
Macroevolution is not a real term used by scientists. You have just revealed the extent of your fail and your lack of scientific knowledge.
Please go take a biology course and get back to us.
And no, real science has never argued for intelligent design, because it’s not a falsifiable hypothesis. You do not know the meaning of the phrase “falsifiable hypothesis,” I presume.
Fail fail fail fail fail.
LOL Which designer gave the whale a pelvis and put our solar system on a collision course with the Andromeda galaxy? Sounds like it was an apprentice. Bearsfan’s claims and thousands like them are answered in Michael Schermer’s excellent book, ‘why Darwin matters’ and on talkorigins.org.
Evan, I happen to know many evolutionary biologists, and they hold the same views as me. They actually say that after going into science, they had no choice but to admit that there was intelligent design. It is pointless to say that everybody of a certain group says or thinks the exact same thing. Again, you’re showing your naivete and close-mindedness. Again, the ‘odds’ that you are trying to mock are greater than you admit. If chance happened to cause the development of Earth and humanity, then we really beat some huge odds. I was talking to my eye doctor and I asked him some questions about the eye and how is sees and adjusts to distance and light. He said that there are 26 different things that must happen simultaneously for us to be able to see. He said there is no way that chance could have developed the exact 26 things in order to make vision a reality.
Macro-evolution IS used by real scientists. If it wasn’t, then please explain to me why Berkley uses the word! http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/VIMacroevolution.shtml
Wrong facts, a narrow viewpoint, unable to debate without insulting the intelligence of someone with a different viewpoint, do you think this makes you look intelligent? You want famous scientists who were Christian and/or believed in Intelligent Design? Galileo, Isaac Newton, John von Neumann, John Dalton, Alexander Fleming, Albert Einstein, and the list goes on. Again, you have made a statement with incorrect facts. Are all of these people loons? Some are from a while ago, but some are from the 20th Century.
I’ve read Michael Schermer before. He is the founder of skeptic magazine and an outspoken atheist. His whole agenda is to disprove Christianity. His ‘proofs’ and ‘arguments’ usually seem sound to the person who doesn’t know a lot about Christianity or it’s history, but to the scholar, he is laughed at. He has so many holes. Christianity is not a religion for the ignorant or non-thinking. Paul commands us to test everything. Find proof for everything we can. Does that mean we will, of course not, but that means that we should always try. We should be knowledgeable.
Evan, I think most people know what a falsifiable hypothesis is. I, again, find it interesting that you are so close-minded that you feel the need to insult the intelligence of someone with a different viewpoint than you have. This website is based on trying to be open and accepting. You seem to be anything but that and I find it very ironic. I find that Conservatives are constantly forced to “open their minds” and “be more accepting,” and for the most part, we do. We’re not perfect and I would hope that no one expects perfection of us. But the great, enlightened liberals are supposed to be the ones who preach equality and acceptance of all no matter what, yet they never seem to accept different viewpoints and beliefs. If someone, like me, has a different belief, then you paint them as an idiot and uneducated. This is so hypocritical of you, but because of your narrow view (ironic for a liberal even though most liberals have a very narrow view while preaching a wide view), you can’t comprehend how you could be wrong. I just find it very interesting and more proof of what I have experienced.
I don’t have time for this, but I will correct one thing.
Yes, scientists do occasionally use the term macroevolution. What I meant to say is that scientists don’t distinguish it from “microevolution” in the way that Creationists do.
They’re the same thing, just looked at from different distances.
Oh, and your thing about the eye is also just more creationist tripe. Seriously, boring. You may be intent on misrepresenting yourself and pretending you have a whole bunch of friends who are evolutionary biologists, but all of your arguments come straight from Answers in Genesis. If your eye doctor said there’s no way that “chance” could have developed those things, he’s an idiot. Yet again, something we can observe in the animal kingdom, watching how different eyes have evolved in different species in order to survive.
Oh, and you’re misquoting Einstein. Hardcore.
Seriously, go register as a commenter here, and try to pull this crap. And PLEASE send me the links so that I can pop the popcorn and watch.
Pick a blog. Any blog.
http://scienceblogs.com/
(Oh, but if you pick Pharyngula, it’ll be more hilarious.)
Oh goodness me Bearsfan, this sounds like junk from AnswersInGenesis. I really feel sorry for you.
The eye has evolved, independently about 60 different times. You miss the point completely when you say “…there is no way that chance could have developed the exact 26 things in order to make vision a reality.”
Your optician is correct – there is no way chance alone could do such a thing. Evolution is cumulative selection, plus random mutation.
The eye’s evolution is explained briefly here, by Richard Dawkins, and in great detail in ‘climbing mount improbable’:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUOpaFVgKPw
(Whether a scientist is an atheist or not is irrelevant. Surely what matters is what’s true? How do you know the contents of a 2,000 year old manuscript are true and not corrupted, edited or mistranslated? The evidence for evolution is not Darwin’s ‘Origin’ book – it’s the DNA record, the fossils, geological data, and so on. If it really matters that the author is a Christian, then Dr Francis Collins’s ‘language of God’ or Prof Kenneth Miller ‘finding Darwin’s God’ are worth reading.)
[excuse my interjection on this matter. I think the first step towards a more tolerant world is attitudes to science, evidence and reason. Scientists listed above by the way, had an excuse, many before darwin's, pasteur's time, all of them before the opening of the genome or the discovery of dna. Knowledge is cumulative, we stand on the shoulders of giants. Newton had an excuse. evolution deniers today do not. Next time cranks like Tony Perkins or Elaine Donnelly are on TV, ask them how old they think the earth is and see what I mean.]
Please, keep going, Adrian. I only have so much energy for time-wasting arguments over things that are demonstrably true.
I will add, though, that the fact that some scientists are believers is indeed irrelevant. They don’t let it corrupt their science; all it means is that they compartmentalize spiritual belief in a different area, away from their work.
One of my closest friends’ fathers is one of the foremost biotech scientists in the country, and he believes in God, but if you ask him if he believes in evolution, he’ll laugh at you and say “Um, you don’t ‘believe’ in evolution. It simply is.”
Bearsfan’s tactic is the tired old farce of searching for something that science doesn’t yet have an answer to and then foolishly suggesting this proves there is a god – no it doesn’t.
Bearsfan said ” show me a scientist who claims he can actually understand how and why a brain remembers information. It can’t be done!”.
Of course it can be done. I can understand it and explain it and I’m no scientist. Any scientist who chooses to think about it can do the same.
Priya, then you are ahead of all science. They cannot explain how our gray matter can store information. It’s more complex than the most complex computer. I would like to hear your explanation, maybe you can publish it in a scientific journal, because they would like to hear this amazing knowledge of yours.
I think it’s interesting how atheists are so quick to become angry. You all have proved this point over and over again. There is no room for differing opinions, and there is so much anger. When you can’t give a logical answer, you resort to name calling. That automatically makes you look foolish.
Haha, you think this is anger? My goodness, you must be tender.
Bearsfan – it’s your job to provide evidence for your proposition. You not only claim to know of a designer, but you claim to know which one, out of all the thousands of gods that ever existed, is responsible. How do you know the Judaeo-Christian god is the designer, instead of say, Poseidon or Wotan? What are your sources? Extraordinary claims require extraordiary evidence.
It’s funny that, while you provide absolutely no evidence, you expect anyone who disagrees with you to have rock solid explanations for every single aspect of complexity. Of course, there are many things that still need explaining. But your approach is: ‘I don’t know what happened, it’s too complicated for me to understand, therefore god did it.’ I can’t disprove you, but I can’t disprove the idea that a tea pot is orbiting Mars right now, either.
You have to understand, people who disagree with you will lose patience when you play by such rules. The ‘god of the gaps’ ruse won’t work because you still have to explain the millions of cases where the facts support the theory.
(Why all the animosity anyway? Why not focus on our common ground. You are atheist about thousands of gods, like me – you simply have to go one insignificant step further.)
Also, if you are serious about discussing the more complex aspects of evolutionary biology, you are most welcome to discuss with me on the forum at richarddawkins.net.
PS You’re welcome to disprove me anytime, any place, anywhere.
I’ve never heard of AnswersInGenesis before, so I’m not sure what you all are referring to.
Adrian, I would never debate someone on a forum at richarddawkins.net. That is not a neutral site. Everyone there has their preconceived ideas and what makes it worse is since the majority are all atheists, it will not be a real debate. I will be ganged up on with skewed facts that everyone thinks are correct. I thought it was interesting that Ben Stein in Expelled got Dawkins to admit that there is a chance that we were planted here by aliens. When challenged about their origin, he said they must have evolved. It is a circular argument that goes nowhere and never addresses the actual topic, “Where did we come from?”
What I want to know, is why does intelligent design get all of you stirred up so much? Frankly, I can care less that you all believe in nothing, but you all are furious that I believe something different than you. So this is a gay, atheist website that preaches inclusivity, yet you can’t handle someone with a different view. You are open-minded and inclusive as long as everyone shares your views. This whole website is completely self-defeating.
Adrian, you asked about the reliability of the 2,000 year old document. I will let Bruce Metzger, professor emeritus at Princeton Theological Seminary answer this for you. “Compared to other ancient documents, there is an unprecedented number of New Testament manuscripts and they can be dated extremely close to the original writings. The modern New Testament is about 99% free of meaningful textual discrepancies, with no major Christian doctrine in doubt. The criteria used by the early church to determine which books should be considered authoritative have ensured that we possess the best records about Jesus.” There are New Testament documents in the world that are closer to the original in time period than any of Aristotle’s or Plato’s works. Greek scholar D.A. Carson sums up this way: “The purity of text is of such a substantial nature that nothing we believe to be true, and nothing we are commanded to do, is in any way jeopardized by the variants. Non-christian scholars no longer contest this issue, but non-scholars who haven’t studied the matter, like Adrian, obviously question it because of their ignorance. This is not even debatable. Also, in your last comment, I’m not sure what “rules” I’m playing by. I’m not a “god of the gaps” person. I simply don’t understand how you can be so sure of everything, when all the questions aren’t even answered. Neither you, nor Dawkins can give an answer as to where we came from. If you say from somewhere else, then how was that created. You can’t answer this, yet you have all your eggs in this basket. You ask me how I know the Christian God is the one, how do you know He isn’t? Can you prove He isn’t, or does it require faith, which atheists don’t believe in, to believe that He isn’t God? You keep trying to poke holes in what I am saying, but it keeps poking holes in your theories and bringing up questions that you can’t answer. Now even Dawkins, who you seem to admire, can answer them.
I guess as long as I’m commenting on here, truth is winning out, not bias.
“I guess as long as I’m commenting on here, truth is winning out, not bias.”
Exactly, because everything you say is being handily refuted with one hand tied behind our backs.
“I would never debate someone on a forum at richarddawkins.net. That is not a neutral site. Everyone there has their preconceived ideas and what makes it worse is since the majority are all atheists, it will not be a real debate. I will be ganged up on with skewed facts that everyone thinks are correct.”
Wait, hold on…
“I would never debate someone on a forum at richardawkins.net. I will be ganged on up on with…facts.”
There. Fixed it.
And actually, this is not a gay atheist website, bearsfan. Many of the readers are members of various faiths, and we respect their beliefs, because they aren’t the type to try to pretend that something like evolution is in question. You CAN be a person of faith AND have a connection to reality. Many of our commenters are a testament to that.
And you’re missing the entire point of the atheist position — we’re not “sure of everything.” We simply don’t assert that God did things that we either don’t understand, or that we understand happened by different processes.
And this construction of your logic is a fallacy:
“Neither you, nor Dawkins can give an answer as to where we came from. If you say from somewhere else, then how was that created. You can’t answer this, yet you have all your eggs in this basket.”
And you can’t tell us where your God came from, if he exists. You simply say “He’s eternal!” I say “What a giant cop-out!”
No one knows the true first origins of existence, but to attribute them to a god with base human characteristics is something I find silly.
Bearsfan, you need to read the book Misquoting Jesus by Bart D. Erhman. Erhman was a christian studying the earliest manuscripts of the new testament and the huge volume of errors, changes, and differences from one manuscript to the next convinced him that it was all made up. It is a long, long, ways from 99% free of textural discrepancies.
Science can most certainly explain how the brain stores information. Just as a series of on/off switches store information in a computer patterns of neronal firings store information in the brain. I could go into more detail for you but this has nothing to do with Mohler, Cass, and Robertson on the Haitian earthquake and it would be inapropriate to get so far off topic.
You ask “You ask me how I know the Christian God is the one, how do you know He isn’t?”.
Simple. A loving and just god that allows belief in him and his religion of choice to be questionable and who eternally tortures people for innocently not believing cannot exist any more than a square circle can exist.
There is no evidence whatsoever that any gods exist despite millenia of people searching for such proof. You’re suggestion that we can’t prove your god doesn’t exist proves that he does is the same as saying you can’t prove leprechauns and invisible unicorns don’t exist therefore they do. You wouldn’t accept such childishness as proof so don’t expect us to either.
That should be neuronal, not neronal.
Similarly, how is bearsfan so certain Poseidon and Thor don’t exist?
Good point Evan, he can’t prove they don’t exist, therefore they must according to his logic.
I was just rereading Bearsfan’s last comment about the partisan Bruce Metzger and it made me laugh. Bruce says “no major christian doctrine is in doubt”. Sure, with over 30,000 varieties of Christianity no major christian doctrine is in doubt LOL. Metzger is obviously just another liar for Jesus.
It’s really funny to watch them warring with each other too.
They’ll get into these ginormous arguments about precisely HOW Jesus’s blood saved the sins of the world, and what “world” means, and whether he went to hell, and whether it was the dying that did the saving or the rising did the saving, and blah blah blah blah blah.
I think we should have similar arguments over the man in the yellow hat from Curious George, because bearsfan cannot prove that the man in the yellow hat is not a deity either.
Priya, the question was about the text, not denominations, but I’m sure you don’t care. Here’s the obituary of Metzger from Princeton’s paper. I guess even with all of this, he’s still not an authority to you all. http://paw.princeton.edu/memorials/3/16/index.xml
Erhman has already been proven wrong. There are books refuting his claims out there and they show where he goes wrong. He says there are over 400,000 variants in the translated text. What he neglects to mention is these ‘variants’ are insignificant and don’t change the meaning of the passage. I’m talking about a misspelling, if 1 text says Jesus and the other says Lord, etc. These things have no bearing on the meaning. between 70 and 80% of all the variants Erhman alludes to are these types. There are also variants that can’t be translated into English, well, he counts those. There are variants involving synonyms. He also says that the manuscripts were intentionally changed. That has already been refuted. Unfortunately, there is more proven wrong about Erhman’s book than the New Testament. It’s okay if you all haven’t done your research, but don’t say that I’m wrong when you are giving me facts that aren’t correct.
I just think it’s interesting that you all are so quick to put down Christianity. Evan, I understand your issues with Christianity, and I have known many people who have fallen away because of them and many who have been strengthened because of them. There’s nothing wrong with questioning. I wonder the same things, but I don’t throw out the whole thing. Especially with the vast amount of proof and corroboration between the gospels, archeological finds, and history.
Actually, I’ve read the book and several others, and the variances change a LOT of meanings. You’re simply spouting off about things you’re not willing to know.
And no, the idea that manuscripts were intentionally changed has not been refuted. Hell, we saw it happen when they translated the NIV Bible. They inserted words that simply weren’t there.
Bearsfan, Metzger is a partisan who decided what he wanted to find in advance of the evidence and filtered the facts to support his pre-chosen narrative. In contrast Ehrman was also a devout believer but he couldn’t deny what he found and the evidence led him away from his previous convictions. It is indisputable that the texts have been intentionally changed, your suggestion that this has been refuted is preposterous. That many christians devoted to pre-judging the evidence are willing to lie about Ehrman’s findings proves nothing. There’s a reason why Ehrman went from devout Christian to non-believer and that is because the evidence clearly shows the new testament was fabricated. We continue to see to this day that texts are intentionally changed to support what people nowadays want them to say. A prime example is the insertion of the word homosexual into modern bibles, a word that didn’t exist until the late 1800′s and most certainly didn’t exist at the time of the earliest manuscripts. I myself have a bible that is written in modern english and there is one footnote after another referring to the King James Version which shows its language says something drastically different from what the King James version did because the authors of my bible have an agenda to make it say what they want, just as the authors of the King James version wrote their agenda into that and the people who wrote the earliest texts wrote their agenda into those.
Bearsfan said “I don’t throw out the whole thing. Especially with the vast amount of proof and corroboration between the gospels, archeological finds, and history.”.
The bible cannot be used as proof that it is true. That is the same as saying a Harry Potter book proves that the Harry Potter book is true. Just because that book refers to places that actually exist and events that actually happened is in no way proof that the Harry Potter books themselves are true. The bible is rife with historical, scientific and geographical errors:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/
There is no non-biblical evidence for the existance of Jesus. And please don’t bring up the Josephus forgery or the Tacitus repetition of what first century Christians told him – they don’t count.
And Bearsfan, I don’t give a damn about Metzger’s obituary. You can’t expect someone who’s devoted his life to and who earned his living off of promoting christianity to acknowledge that it was a lie and he wasted his life and and his career was a farce. That’s were Ehrman has a credibility that Metzger will never have. Ehrman devoted his life and career to christianity and then had the courage to say he had it all wrong, he wasted his time and had deceived others. There was tremendous disincentive for him to admit his mistake. That he did so was powerful evidence that he had found solid proof that he was wrong and the bible was fabricated.
Bearsfan said “Priya, the question was about the text, not denominations”.
Irrelevant. That there are 30,000 denominations proves that Metzger is a complete fool when he claimed no major christian doctrine is in doubt. There is a great deal of doubt about christian doctrine and many different versions of the bible that different denominations prefer because it puts their desired spin on things.
Bearsfan’s silliness was nicely refuted by Evan and Priya, however, I’ll just add a few things….
First, Bearsfan, nothing in your argument is remotely original or challenging. Frankly I am disappointed in your stubbornness. Prof Dawkins’s forum hosts a number or dyed-in-the-wool young earth creationists who valiantly attempt to make the case that Noah’s Flood was a real event (and failing spectacularly, of course).
Secondly, the only thing that matters is whether you have evidence, good reasons for your assertion. Copernicus needed no seconder to put forward his opinion, and prove all the religious people wrong about the earth’s true relationship to the sun. One person can overturn a theory and shout ‘eureka’ (you can go find a rabbit fossil in cambrian rock strata for instance, and evolution would be falsified).
What intensely disappoints me, is your attitude to argument. You are more bothered about being right, rather than working towards the truth. I suggested to you to visit RD’s website because you are making scientific claims and Dawkins’s site is full of experts in that very field. Are you scared of taking these people on, because you will be exposed as an ignorant fool? If so, then I suspect your intention to debate here is not to have an honest debate but to make people feel insecure about themselves.
“Everyone there has their preconceived ideas and what makes it worse is since the majority are all atheists, it will not be a real debate.”
- the atheist simply says ‘there is no reason to believe a god exists’. It is a proposition based on doubt. No pre-conceived ideas at all. You however, know exactly what happened and who was responsible!!
“I thought it was interesting that Ben Stein in Expelled got Dawkins to admit that there is a chance that we were planted here by aliens. When challenged about their origin, he said they must have evolved. It is a circular argument that goes nowhere and never addresses the actual topic, “Where did we come from?” ”
That was precisely Richard Dawkins’s point! Richard has often said, if there is one thing that an alien would have in common with us, it would be Evolution.
The point is this: a designer would have to be extremely complex, statistically improbable, and intelligent. Evolution tells us that these things happen late on in the universe. So if you posit a designer you just push the problem one stage back, which was the whole point.
“What I want to know, is why does intelligent design get all of you stirred up so much? Frankly, I can care less that you all believe in nothing, but you all are furious that I believe something different than you.”
The deception created by know-nothings who pretend we did not evolve concerns me greatly, because I care about the truth. I believe in the Enlightenment and discovery, and it seems there are those who want to shut this down. The push to get Intelligent Design – junk pseudoscience – taught in schools is precisely about that: getting people to accept ID was meant to be first stage in bringing about cultural and political change in America. No surprise those funding it are fundamentalist theocrats / anti-gay activists like FOTF and the ADF. It’s explained here: http://www.creationismstrojanhorse.com/
The Achilles Heel of this Trojan Horse, of course, is that does no stand to the slightest scrutiny, as I have pointed out above.
I also care, because if the west wants to compete with China and India, we need good scientists, who will innovate and drive us ahead. We cannot do that with over 45% of American citizens believing the Earth is 6,000 years old.
“So this is a gay, atheist website that preaches inclusivity, yet you can’t handle someone with a different view. You are open-minded and inclusive as long as everyone shares your views. This whole website is completely self-defeating.”
Oh really, play the world’s smallest violin. I am not stopping you from expressing your opinion – curiously I did an opinion piece in the (London)Guardian newspaper a few months ago defending free speech! You come on here and tell me to believe you based on no evidence, and respect it. I don’t respect it – I suspect it, deeply.
You simply must get used to people questioning and criticizing your view. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
I am atheist though I am most probably in the minority here (the founder of this website is heavily involved in a Prayer Hour, for goodness’ sake). I assume there is no requirement to believe one way or the other on here.
Bravo, Adrian.
And yeah, that’s what I was saying about this not being an atheist website. We really run the gamut, between commenters and writer, from evangelical Christians to Jews to atheists to agnostics to…I don’t know what all of you are, and hell, I really don’t care. I care about whether people are honest and argue with integrity and backuped by facts. The rest is whatever. We can disagree about religion, which is fine, but I doubt that any of us feel the need to do so with a religious fervor. At least not here.
Thankyou, Comrade Hurst ;-) I’m not at war with all people of faith. But it is necessary to have such arguments with the extremists, because their assertion is: they know what God’s plan is, not only for themselves, but for everyone else, including me. When anyone makes that claim, I have to seek evidence from them, and go right to the root of their beliefs. The last stage of this questioning inevitably ends in the trainwreck we see above.
I recognize that for many people, faith brings an enormous amount of joy and a great inspiration.
We should support those who live their life according to their faith, as strongly as we stand up to those theocrats who seek to impose it on others. That’s actually the reason why we should be fighting in Afghanistan, and why we should be opposing Liberty ‘University’, the Family ‘Research’ Council, etc, and all those other termites chewing away at Jefferson’s legacy.
Jesus, did I type “backuped” and not catch it?
I will go cut a switch from the “don’t make up words unless they’re funny” tree now.