What have we been saying? Some people think it’s extreme when I and others point out that what’s going on in Uganda is simply happening because Evangelical Fundamentalist Christians can get away with it there. Some people think, incorrectly, that American Fundamentalists are inherently civilized people and swallow down their weak condemnations of the Uganda legistlation. Some people want to apologize for these bigoted ghouls, want to tell us that all we need is to sit down and have a little chat so that we can “understand each other better.”
If you feel that way, you might just want to go ahead and check yourself right now.
The American Family Association radio host and head of the Idaho Family Alliance, Bryan Fischer, used these words in reply to an e-mail from a listener, reproduced in full by Joe Jervis:
Thanks for writing me about my comments on my program regarding homosexuality. It might be worth noting that what I actually suggested is that we impose the same sanctions on those who engage in homosexual behavior as we do on those who engage in intravenous drug abuse, since both pose the same kind of risk of contracting HIV/AIDS. I’d be curious to know what you think should be done with IV drug abusers, because whatever it is, I think the same response should be made to those who engage in homosexual behavior.
If you believe that what drug abusers need is to go into an effective detox program, then we should likewise put active homosexuals through an effective reparative therapy program. Secondly, I’m afraid you’re simply wrong about the Bible’s perspective on the law and homosexuality. Paul lists quite explicitly in 1 Timothy 1:8-11 the actions and behaviors that are the proper concern of the law:
“Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine…”
The bottom line here is that, biblically, those “who practice homosexuality” should come under the purview of the law just as much as those who take people captive in order to sell them into slavery. You express a belief in the Scriptures, and I trust your confidence in Scripture is not selective. If you believe all Scripture is inspired, then you are compelled to accept that legal sanctions may appropriately be applied to those who engage in homosexual behavior.
Yeah. You see, these people do not believe in what the United States stands for. They are not patriots, because they seek to destroy our Constitution, which allows them to have their beliefs without harassment, but which seeks to provide equal treatment for all under the law. We’re not there yet, but we’ll get there. But “men” (I use the term loosely) like Bryan Fischer don’t value this country. They want nothing more than a land where they can take their backwards, knuckle-dragging, pigheaded, bigoted belief system and enshrine it as the law of the land, to be lorded over anyone who is not white, heterosexual, Evangelical Christian and male.
And let’s be clear here. We can have our arguments all day long (as liberals do, quite nicely) about whether there’s a god, which god it is if there is one, yadda yadda yadda, ad nauseam. But we can all agree that Bryan Fischer does not represent the message of the Jesus Christ that’s written about in Christian texts.*
Quick factcheck, Bry:
1. Homosexual behavior is not, in itself, conducive to the spread of HIV/AIDS. Why don’t you consult with a physician about that, and get back to me?
2. The words “men who practice homosexuality” are not in any grown-up translation of the Bible. Perhaps you should devote a little more time to studying the texts by which you claim to live.
3. There is no such thing as “an effective reparative therapy program.” You can find detailed information on the success rates of so-called “reparative therapy” and its effects at a website called, oh lookie here, Truth Wins Out.
4. Dingbat.
*But! I would argue that he is representative of the parts of those texts that confirm his stupidity and hatred. They tend to be found in literal interpretations of the Old Testament god. So I really don’t want to hear the cop-out about Bryan Fischer not representing Christianity as a whole. He does. He represents the parts of it that give him cover for his own fear of things that are different from him, or are perhaps too much like him.
I just want to say, the word “homosexual” did not even exist until the late 1800′s so it is impossible that the bible said “men who practice homosexuality.” The fact that it was clearly translated to this version AFTER the late 1800s would seem to point to a likelihood that the person translating already had an aversion to homosexuality, because from the late 1800′s until today there has been a decided majority who believe that homosexuality is wrong, and hold discriminatory viewpoints about homosexuality.
This is not surprising. Fischer is simply saying what most of the wingnut-alliance would dearly love to do if they had the chance. It’s just 7 years since the FRC / FOTF issued an amicus brief to defend the law criminalizing gays in Texas. (see http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=LB03C1 ).
Actually, Chris Hedges the NYT journalist did a critique of the Religious Right, a few years ago, ‘American Fascists’, explaining what america would be like if they had their way. The attack on GLTBs covered, including reparative therapy. Fischer’s utterance proves his point perfectly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Thn9Hnu__pU
Well I call for imprisonment of ignorant radio hosts! Sounds like someone is a little threatened by us. .. or just desperate for attention.
Hate is a BIG problem in this County Land of The Free
I stay FIRE this BIGOT NOW
WE HAVE NO ROOM IN THE COUNTRY FOR HATE!!
As leader of Jihad, I am glad to welcome you, Bryan Fischer and the rest of American Taliban to join with our side. I know that you will stand next to me when we chant together for DEATH to Western ‘enlightenment!’
We know that the world was much simpler place in the twelfth century when your ancestors and mine slashed each other to pieces with scimitars fighting over a sacred patch of desert. It has been deepest wish of myself and my followers to destroy all the heresies that have sprung up since then so that we can go back to when real men killed slashed and clubbed each other to death, or killed each other in bloody and gruesome ways like boiling oil and the death of a thousand cuts instead of loving each other.
And so, Bryan Fischer, in the spirit of Saladin and Richard the Lion Hearted I welcome you as a brother in the ongoing Jihad against anything more civilized than the way things were in 1100 AD. We can destroy so-called ‘advanced’ civilization together, and then we can fight it out to the death after we have finished stoning and beheading the unbelievers and infidels.
I imagine this asshat will be reined in and persuaded to apologize (what I call “apolo-lies”, those aw-shucks statements that Falwell and Robertson issued regularly–after the genie was out of the bottle), but what is revealed here is the un-cool, un-p.c. closet hatred that underlies too much of what passes for piety in an ugly cult.
Notice how he selectively ignores the word “liar” in the Scripture he quotes?
If we are going to outlaw behavior which spreads AIDS, then we need to imprison heterosexuals, too. Maybe he could add that to the death penalty for gay people the anti-gay agenda crowd is pushing for in Africa? Since so many heterosexuals there have AIDS, they would be easy targets for his “logic.”
The important thing to remember and the thing that radical anti-gay activist Fischer deliberately disobeys is that we are commanded to treat others as we want to be treated. This is not some random, unimportant rule, but instead something repeated over and over and over in Scripture. This is not something we Christians can selectively ignore, like Fischer does. By doing so as he’s puffed up with pride, he shows us so much more than he even realizes. But God hears him.
“For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.” (Galatians 5:14)
Speaking as a common-sense conservative who has a gay family member as well as gay friends, (who are also conservative) I’d just like to say that this man, and any other person who calls for this type of thinking, does NOT speak for me. Though the left doesn’t want to acknowledge it, most conservatives are normal people who reject entirely this bigotry. We support a strong national defense and a recognition of the true threat that terrorists present to our nation BECAUSE we know that gays would be among the first to be “rounded up.”
I realize that my small comment here will not change any of those minds that are dedicated to placing responsibility for this kind of bigotry on all conservatives. I am compelled to state it, nonetheless.
This type of bigotry is the same as the church in Topeka that is so evil. I don’t know ANYONE, liberal or conservative, who supports them.
By the way – here is a wonderful critique of Mr. Fischer, a racist, xenophobic scumbag too, and how he managed to scupper any anti-discrimination legislation in Idaho. He has a savvy media manipulator, presenting himself as the face of the Republicans on the state’s TV channels.
http://may-chang.com/?p=182
longmayshewave, part of the reason we shine a light on things like this is so that people like you, who probably interact with people closer to that worldview more regularly than I do, are aware of what kind of crap they really spew, so that when some random friend starts to say something about the American Family Assocation, or about LGBT rights in general, you have the information you need to help people along from your side.
;-)
[...] AFA Radio Host Bryan Fischer Calls For Imprisonment of Gays (Yes, American Ones) [...]
Evan, I appreciate the thought, and I know that I can’t begin to speak for ALL conservatives, nor ALL Christians, but the people I am surrounded by and interact with are very aware of the nutjobs among us, on both sides, and “what kind of crap they really spew.” We usually know about the proclamation of some semi-famous “evangelist” as soon as anyone else does. And roll our eyes, heave a heavy sigh, and begin to prepare for being lumped in with them. And, begin to speak out about it.
I read and hear conservatives and/or Christians speak against this type of talk, but I hear/read it on FOX news, talk radio, and conservative blogs and publications, so some readers might not be aware of those denunciations. Many media outlets are quick to show a story like the one above, but neglect to also cover the speaking out against it by Christian conservatives. The Patriot Guard was founded specifically to protect families against Phelps’ group of despicable creatures, and I know several people who are PGR and are Christians and conservatives. We despise that as much as you do.
You really would be surprised, I think, to find that the ones who call themselves Christian/conservative and profess such hatred are a small minority, even though they seem to have all the microphones. Many of us are working to change that, but again, that is something you won’t learn from the establishment media.
I love the Patriot Guard ;)
I think the problems you’re describing are the same problems faced by the Christian left: Since the Christian left isn’t saying insane things like that, and since we have a media that thrives on conflict and sensationalism, those voices have a far higher volume in the public discourse than they deserve. (I think it’s actually similar, in that way, to the problems Muslims around the world face, when trying to counteract the noises made by their extremists, and we in the US are far too quick to dismiss the legitimate concerns of moderate-minded Muslims and lump them in with the extremists.)
And you’d probably agree that this subject is a bit different from other subjects. You said that you’re a small government conservative, etc., and I can argue with you until the day is done about why I disagree, and you can argue back with me, but we can do that without trying to damage each others’ dignity.
But on the issue of civil equality for LGBT Americans, one side truly doesn’t respect the humanity and dignity of the other side, and I think the most powerful thing, the thing that’s really pushing us over to full support, is people within the Christian Conservative community speaking up to their own and saying “Yeah, time out. It’s wrong to treat people like that, no matter what your personal beliefs may or may not be.”
Groups like the AFA and Focus on the Family are quietly scrambling right now because they know that among the under 30 demographic, they’ve lost the entire war. Even in more conservative Evangelical circles (and you know this, I’m sure), younger people yawn when they hear their older leaders railing against the “gay agenda,” because they also have gay friends and family members and they know that what they’re hearing from the pulpit is a bunch of hateful crap. (AND many of them are leaving those churches and finding themselves in more liberal churches, or in the emerging church movement, a la Jay Bakker or What’s His Name…the popular young writer from…Pittsburgh?…Philadelphia?…somewhere. I can’t remember.)
I agree with you Evan, that the younger people are growing up much more aware of the fact that gay people are all around us, and that gay people are just people. Their being gay is not wrong, and should not be treated as if it is. I must say, though, and have seen this personally, mamy baby boomers are realizing that lifelong friends are gay, that children are gay, that siblings are gay, and they are becoming more and more OK with that.
True change simply takes time. Legislative change can happen in a matter of months, but we can never legislate people’s internal prejudices and beliefs. But where I live in fly-over country, I see more of a true live-and-let-live atmosphere, which is contrary to what most people think. Out here, people are measured more by work ethic and neighborliness, and much less by race or whom they live with. Someone comes to help you round up the cattle that got through a fence, and that’s all that matters. Two of our dearest neighbors are two women in their 60′s who have lived together here in our small community for decades. No one picks on them, and if they tried, they would face a whole bunch of us.
I was, and remain, grateful to Dick Cheney and his family for showing me and millions of others what it looks like when someone walks the walk, instead of just talking the talk. He admitted that he did not support a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, departing from Bush’s stance, saying that it should be up to the states. He also said that all people should be able to enter into any kind of relationship they want to. While I understand that this does not constitute “support” in the eyes of the gay community, it did to many gay individuals. Even more meaningful, was in 2004, when it became clear that Bush/Cheney had won the election and both families came out on some stage to speak. Mary and her partner were there; they weren’t “used” as props, they were just there. To me, that spoke louder than any empty campaign promise to “support gay rights.”
You’re correct that we will never agree on many issues, but I do appreciate your allowing me to comment here on your blog, and your kind and civil responses to me. I don’t usually comment on liberal blogs, as I know that my remarks won’t change anybody’s mind. But I feel strongly about statements like the one made by Fischer, and stand with you against that.
PS: Glad you love the Patriot Guard–those folks are wonderful! If I only had a bike…..
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It’s just as simple and as logical to demand that Christian Evangelism be outlawed, be declared felonious. I mean, what’s the difference between inciting violence and just publicly expressing hate, if the OUTCOME is the same… seems to me that the USA needs to tighten up our hate-speech laws a bit, like in UK. To settle down ALL the nuts, not just the christ-ian ones.
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I found your posting to be insightful! Thank you.