Behold the power of Fundamentalist Christian delusion.
Jacob, I don’t know who you are, but these people are predators. Your sexuality is part of you, and it has nothing to do with your drug addictions. And you don’t beat addiction to drugs by exchanging it for a dependency on profit-based faux-spiritual experiences proffered by people who use your life as a way to get rich. (See note.)
Note: It’s been brought to my attention that the leaders of IHOP live “modest lifestyles” and whatnot. This is, of course, anecdotal, and I have as of yet little knowledge of the group’s finances. What I do know is that whatever these people are selling is costly, because they deliver nothing real. They deliver empty promises and opiates for the masses. They also deliver real harm and dishonest counsel to people like Jacob. As you can see in the video, they are bolstering a young man with lies, and passing off as true testimony the preposterous idea that God has “healed” him of homosexuality. When your first exposure to a group is to their snake oil and lies, it’s not beyond the pale to suggest that someone, somewhere, is profiting off of this. But as I don’t know for sure, I wanted to amend this post to point out that these people could very well just be zealots. So there you go. Regardless, the video is painful to watch, because so many of us have been scarred by the people who perpetuate this sort of false worldview.
Shame on them.
Tags: deception, ex-gay delusion, ex-gay industry, liarsRelated posts
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I’ve heard this all before. I have yet to meet someone who is homosexual (a sexual identity) and changes their sexual identity to heterosexual. I have only met those who changed their behaviour. Their same-sex attractions do not go away.
The danger with this is that suppressing your sexual identity in the longer term leads to many mental health issues.
I sincerely pray to God that this young person does not now get married as a sign that he is cured. He stands to wreck the lives of his wife and children as well.
If you are a Christian and have same sex attractions, please please PLEASE! don’t let your church handle it … get professional help!
Comment by Paul — February 6, 2010 @ 4:04 am
Fundamentalists are brainwashed to think that clergy ARE professionals.
At best, they’re trained to read their book to people. They are not trained counselors, they’re not trained psychologists, they’re not really professional…anything.
I’m particularly snarky on this issue, as I’m one of the resident atheists, but clergy are afforded far too much respect in our society. I’m not saying that many of them aren’t great people, but they shouldn’t be viewed as “experts” on anything other than reading their chosen old book.
Comment by Evan Hurst — February 6, 2010 @ 4:20 am
Even worse is the face of the guy standing behind the kid. He’s got his hand on the kid’s back the entire time and all the while that poor kid is practically having a nervous breakdown that man’s face never cracks an expression beyond deadpan. This is the face people wear when they’re having their mug shots taken. Or when they’re mugging someone…some helpless kid…
Comment by Bruce Garrett — February 6, 2010 @ 6:31 am
The “ministry” is called IHOP? M’kay.
“And you don’t beat addiction to drugs by exchanging it for a dependency on profit-based faux-spiritual experiences proffered by people who use your life as a way to get rich.”
All of those “faith based” programs are alike. They transfer the person’s addiction from a substance to religion, and they gain a convert in the process (complete with all of the $$$ and other perks involved). Of course with the “ex-gay” nonsense part of their shtick is convincing the gay person that their orientation is just like an addiction and that it needs to be “cured”. “Oh, you’re soooo miserable, let us help you.” They fail to mention that their hatred and intolerance is the reason the person is so miserable. But then they’re the ultimate capitalists–create the need and then sell the “cure”.
Comment by Buffy — February 6, 2010 @ 9:20 am
OMG, that was so awful. It broke my heart.
Comment by Melissa Anne Baluka — February 6, 2010 @ 9:35 am
Evan, you wrote:
“Your sexuality is part of you, and it has nothing to do with your drug addictions.”
I agree with the first half of that statement, but not quite with the second. I don’t mean that homosexuality causes drug addiction; it doesn’t. But there is a link between homosexuality and drug-taking. Having never taken drugs myself, I never used to give it much serious thought, but it was brought home to me very forcefully just before Christmas, when I got talking one night to a guy in a gay pub. I can’t quite remember how we got on to the topic, but he told me that years before, during his late teens and early twenties, he used to be almost constantly under the influence of alcohol and that he took drugs. This lovely, kind, friendly, cheerful, outgoing guy, who really seemed to “have it all together” if ever anyone did, taking drugs? I couldn’t get my head round it. “What drugs did you take?” I asked. “Everything I could get my hands on except for heroin,” he said. “Why did you do it?” I asked. His reply was, “Because the messages that I got from everyone around me, although they didn’t know that I was gay, made me feel so worthless that I was prepared to do anything to deaden the pain.”
That is the link, and that’ why these fundamentalist Christians are so dangerous. If they have their way, many young gay people will continue to feel worthless and will do “anything to deaden the pain”.
If this young man in the video is now genuinely off drugs, all well and good, but when he realises that he hasn’t been “delivered” from homosexuality he’ll be back where he was before. Even if he doesn’t go back on drugs or substitute alcohol for drugs — and I hope to God that he doesn’t — his life will be a wreck until he accepts himself as a gay man, which is precisely what the fundamentalist Christians will move heaven and earth to prevent. That’ why they their activities are so pernicious and why they need to be stopped.
Comment by William — February 6, 2010 @ 10:38 am
William, not quite.
You’re talking about a specific segment of the gay community, and yes, there is a lot of drug use in that segment. But I would argue that it has less to do with their sexuality and more to do with that party culture in general. After all, straight people who participate in a similar party culture are prone to drug use too.
And if you’ve ever spent a lot of time in a large gay club, you’ll notice that there are social strata even within that. Sure, there are often drugs around, but in my experience, based on my friendships over the years, the one who were really hardcore drug users weren’t the norm. Within that sort of party environment, you’re going to find a more lax attitude toward drug use in general, but at the same time, I also have noticed a lot of general condescension (entirely merited) toward the tweaked out little gay boys in our midst.
But a gay person who isn’t a part of that party culture, and obviously, there are many, isn’t likely to be a big drug user. So I’m really careful making that association because, as you pointed out, our opposition are liars, and moreover, they don’t understand science well enough to distinguish between correlation and causation.
Comment by Evan Hurst — February 6, 2010 @ 12:00 pm
@Evan Hurst: “…they don’t understand science well enough to distinguish between correlation and causation.” Hell, they don’t even understand a lie when it’s told to them week after week.
Comment by Mykelb — February 6, 2010 @ 5:16 pm
[...] response to this, the gay activist organization Truth Wins Out said the following: Behold the power of Fundamentalist Christian [...]
Pingback by Responding to the Critics: IHOP Testimony on Deliverance From Same-Sex Attraction | Voice of Revolution — February 6, 2010 @ 5:34 pm
I understand that IHOP in this case is the International House of Prayer. I think it’s more like the International House of Phruitcakes.
Comment by Richard Rush — February 6, 2010 @ 6:05 pm
Evan,
I responded to this post as well as one from Dave Rattigan from XGW here: http://voiceofrevolution.askdrbrown.org/2010/02/06/responding-to-the-critics-ihop-testimony-on-deliverance-from-same-sex-attraction
Marcus French
Editor: Voice of Revolution
Comment by Marcus French — February 6, 2010 @ 6:13 pm
I’ll deal with that in a while.
Comment by Evan Hurst — February 6, 2010 @ 7:00 pm
White robes, white noise, Marcus French. In your critique, you make the great mistake of assuming the existence of the ‘power of the living God’, without providing any empirical evidence for it. Let’s not be so open-minded about these tings, that our brains drop out.
Carl Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUB4j0n2UDU)
is worth referring to here. Are there any other explanations? Does this fit with the way the world works? How does this healing explain the vast majority of LGBT people who live extremely happy, stable lives, Mr French? What about all the overwhelming evidence that shows sexual orientation to be a natural, unchangeable, neutral state?
Thomas Paine’s commentary in the Age of Reason (ch 17) has much to say about miracle healings homosexuals:
“…Is it more probable that nature should go out of her course, or that a man should tell a lie? We have never seen, in our time, nature go out of her course; but we have good reason to believe that millions of lies have been told in the same time; it is therefore, at least millions to one, that the reporter of a miracle tells a lie.”
Comment by adrianT — February 6, 2010 @ 8:11 pm
Evan,
Below is part of my response, particularly dealing with your accusation that these IHOP leaders are “predators” using this young man to “get rich.” Given what I show below, ought you not delete or at least change the sections of your article that declare these falsehoods about IHOP’s motives? Does the quote of Mike Bickle not give you pause that you may be wrong in judging their motives?
—
4. The IHOP leaders are only using this young man to “get rich” and are “predators.”
This accusation would be laughable if people did not really believe it. Are there some people that really get rich off unsuspecting Christians? Yes. Do they distort the gospel of Jesus for their own monetary gain? Yes. (Points which we at this ministry decry continuously). But why does this mean that everyone that’ preaching the gospel is in it to get rich? What’ the reality of the situation at IHOP (a multi-million dollar ministry)? The following was published in 2001 by News World Communications concerning the head and founder of IHOP, Mike Bickle:
Does this sound like someone getting rich of this young man? The idea is laughable! And I have personal knowledge that Mr. Bickle lives the same kind of lifestyle today, even with the ministry growing exponentially since 2001 (I wonder if Wayne Besen, head of Truth Wins Out, draws this kind of salary?). This same example could be multiplied throughout the IHOP leadership team, and well into most of the charismatic movement today (again, with a few exceptions).
Rather than IHOP using this young man, they’ve simply set up an environment where people like him can come and experience the power of the living God through the gospel of Jesus Christ 24 hours a day (they have facilities open to the public around the clock with people praying continuously for America and the world). I pray that this young man builds on this experience in prayer and devotion to Jesus, yielding a life that is full of righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.
Comment by Marcus French — February 6, 2010 @ 11:16 pm
Didn’t we already cover this at your blog? I’m not re-arguing it here.
As I said over there, I don’t give a damn if the kid finds peace in being a born-again Christian. If so, great! What I do care about is the fact that you people like to kids like Jacob and tell them that they can’t find favor with God without trying to destroy a part of themselves.
Comment by Evan Hurst — February 6, 2010 @ 11:57 pm
To those who equate homosexuality with drugs – let me offer 2 suggestions:
1. Has anyone ever counted the relative proportion of gays who do drugs vs. Straight people who do drugs.
2. I live in a county of wealthy straight people whose straight kids are all trying drugs in the straight schools. Maybe .005% of the kids will turn out to be gay… go figure.. I am sure this is the same on the rest of America wealthy or poor regardless
3. Perhaps those who are not accepted by society – in fact hated for whom they are – may just need a little crutch to survive…. melanie nathan
Comment by melanie nathan — February 7, 2010 @ 10:39 am
Evan, it seems that either I didn’t make myself entirely clear in my previous post, or else you read it rather too hastily. So please let me clarify.
I’m aware of the party culture, and I agree with you that it forms only one segment of the gay community, and that a similar segment is to be found in the straight community. But that was not what I was referring to.
It seems to me that quite apart from the party culture that does crazy and often dangerous things for the hell of it, there is another reason why one may be using “recreational” drugs, namely that life is intolerable, just as some people drink themselves into an early grave because life is intolerable. My friend, whose experience I briefly described, was clearly in this second category.
I was most definitely NOT suggesting that being gay causes drug abuse — which, of course, is a lie that right-wing Christian groups love to disseminate. What I am saying is that homophobic abuse of young gay people increases their risk of drug abuse. It may not even be open and explicit abuse: just a generally anti-gay ethos is abusive, since it retards self-acceptance and causes feelings of loneliness, isolation and worthlessness. It was in this sense, and only in this sense, that this young man’ sexuality probably DID have something to do with his drug addictions — NOT because it caused the addictions, but because his lack of self-acceptance probably led him to seek an escape in drugs, just as in the case of my friend.
This is why the kind of fundamentalist Christians whom we see in the video are so dangerous. They don’t want young gay people to come to terms with their natural sexuality; on the contrary they will do all that they can to prevent them from doing so, thus increasing their risk of drug abuse, alcohol abuse etc. Attempts to “cure” them of their natural sexuality amount simply to further abuse on top of all that has gone before.
For information on the effects of rejection on gay teenagers, see:
http://ucsflgbt.org/pdfs/FAP%20Press%20Release.pdf
Comment by William — February 7, 2010 @ 1:34 pm
Oh, I see what you were saying now.
Yeah, it seems that there’s a correlation between familial acceptance and success in life, though people handle it differently. I know people who were utterly rejected and used that as their springboard for creating success, despite all that. On the other hand, speaking from personal experience, I never got into drugs or anything, but I know that part of the reason it took me a while to really get on course was because I was so completely unsupported when I came out. I was 19 when I came out, and I came out fast. I was mentally unprepared for the idea that I would be rejected so completely by my parents, and so that made what should have been a completely positive time of self-acceptance turn into something a bit different, and I flailed around for several years trying to find my bearings again. What got me through was supportive, high-caliber friends and several sets of substitute parents, people who remain dear to me to this day. But I can see how, if I hadn’t been able to find those ships to anchor onto, things might have been different.
Comment by Evan Hurst — February 7, 2010 @ 2:29 pm
Evan,
Glad to see the note added to the article.
Incidentally, regarding your last post, I think many followers of Jesus can relate to your “coming out” experience more than you realize.
Comment by Marcus French — February 7, 2010 @ 5:04 pm
Yes, I know many of them, but the ones who say that they “love gay people” yet also tell them that they have to change who they are to be accepted are predators.
I have had experience with both.
Comment by Evan Hurst — February 7, 2010 @ 5:25 pm
Evan,
I see no reason to concede on the issue of IHOP’s leader living modestly, and not being motivated by money. According to critics of the group, they charge “interns” farm more than it costs to feed and house them for the time they are with the group. This money must go somewhere. There is plenty of friction in the community over IHOP buying up lots of property, putting large numbers of kids in each house, and generally taking over the area.
Buying up real estate costs money. Large numbers of paying interns crowded into houses with 4 kids in a room with each paying for the priviledge can generate quite a bit of cash flow.
Claims by the leaders of one of these things that he only gets $35,000 can completely obscur other forms of payment, such as cars, free housing, credit cards that can be used to expense meals, groceries, clothes, technology items, travel, hotels, conferences at resorts, exotic trips for “research” purposes, etc.
It is entirely possible (but I would guess unlikely) that this guy lives modestly. The real estate aquisitions and the aggressive recruitment of interns who overpay for the services they recieve raises serious red flags about the IHOP leader and his disdain for money.
Comment by John — February 7, 2010 @ 11:19 pm
I grew up in a very dichotomous atmosphere with uneducated evangelical grandparents on one side and educated (doctors) intellectual grandparents on the other. My experience with the evangelicals was to be told that I was an abomination, that homosexuality was evil and that I was going to hell for having those feelings. On the other side, my educated grandmother loved and accepted me unconditionally. Guess what? I told the other set of grandparents when I was 18 that I would see them in hell and never talked to or visited them ever again. Their loss. However, I have struggled with that hatred all my life. In my earlier years, it was dulled with alcohol and partying, to my detriment. It slowed my progress to understand myself and which path I would take in life. Eventually, I found my self worth and found a life worth living. Now, I have been married 4 years (Canadian marriage), have a great paying job, and I look forward to living with my love every day. I even have money and time to give to others now (SMYAL) and try to do all I can for kids whose parents or family abuse them as these IHOP people are doing. Physical and psychological abuse of our youth continues, especially by Churches, EX-gay groups, and those who would take advantage of them because of their inexperience and utter confusion about how the world actually works. These kids have no resources and deserve every ounce of compassion, advocacy and money we can afford.
Comment by Mykelb — February 8, 2010 @ 12:09 am
And what’s sick, mykelb, is that most of our parents and grandparents probably didn’t set out to hurt us, but they’ve been fed such a constant string of propagandistic bullsh*t, for so long, that they actually honestly believe, with no evidence for such a thing, that if their kid comes out to them, that their kid’s soul is in mortal danger, and it causes them to act in the most unloving ways.
This is why we have to continue to speak up against these people, and expose them for what they are.
And NEVER let the fact that many of them use sweet language fool any of us.
That was part of the argument at the other side. I’m a grade-A ass, but I’m that way in the spirit of defending people who have been hurt. There is nothing worse than a person who plays all nice and loving while advocating and encouraging hatred and discrimination, in my honest opinion.
Comment by Evan Hurst — February 8, 2010 @ 12:21 am