Peter caught me making a comment on here about Linda Harvey, and he wrote a big mad “Evan is so mean” post about it. But I’ll do you the courtesy of getting everybody up to speed on where the comment came from, and then I’ll explain it further. This press release is from a talk Linda gave wherein, among other things, she defended her friend and SPLC-certified hate group leader Scott Lively, he who went to Uganda to spread the pernicious lie that gays were responsible for the Rwandan genocide:
Harvey said the Southern Poverty Law Center was wrong when it recently classified several anti-gay groups, including Scott Lively’ Abiding Truth Ministries, as “hate groups.”
“I can’t stand the Southern Poverty Law Center. They are such a hypocritical organization. They don’t cover any of the violence that happens to any of the conservatives.I love what they do with the Klu Klux Klan and racial issues, . They need to go back stay out of this other stuff. They need to get out of classifying hate groups, family groups. I mean I am a normal ordinary person I just happen to have conservative values. I don’t hate anybody. I don’t go on anybody’ websites. I don’t picket funerals. I can’t stand Fred Phelps. I think he is funded by the gays,” Harvey said. “I think he is.”
She said she and Lively have both worked on the anti-homosexuality bill in Uganda, and that she “loves” Lively.
Ms. Harvey then showed up in the comments section of that press release, and she was shocked, shocked (shocked!), that anyone could have a problem with her dear friend Mr. Lively (there is video at the above link of Lively speaking, by the way):
And how is Scott Lively a “Holocaust revisionist”? Don’t get that one. Are you trying to imply anti-semitism that does not exist? Listen to my daily radio show and hear my support for the state of Israel, much more than you’ll get from most of the left these days, including the Obama administration.
How is Scott Lively a “Holocaust revisionist,” asketh The Linda.
Let us explain this: Scott Lively wrote a book called The Pink Swastika, which argued that the Third Reich was, at its core, a homosexual movement. Indeed, the SPLC (Peter’s personal boogeyman now, apparently) handily disposed of the book’s malevolently asinine thesis in 2005:
In 1995, a book calledThe Pink Swastika made similar claims about the Nazis’ treatment of homosexuals during the Holocaust.
Written by fundamentalist activists Scott Lively and Kevin Abrams, The Pink Swastika says that rather than being victimized by the Nazis, gay men in Hitler’s inner circle actually helped mastermind the Holocaust.
“While we cannot say that homosexuals caused the Holocaust, we must not ignore their central role in Nazism,” write Lively and Abrams. “To the myth of the ‘pink triangle’ ‚Äî the notion that all homosexuals in Nazi Germany were persecuted ‚Äî we must respond with the reality of the ‘pink swastika.’”
Historians agree that this “reality” is utterly false. But many anti-gay crusaders have used the “gay Nazi” myth as proof that gay people are immoral and destructive.
(…)
In fact, while the number of homosexuals who died in the Holocaust does not approach the number of Jewish or Gypsy victims, the historical record shows that between 50,000 and 100,000 men were arrested for homosexuality (or suspicion of it) under the Nazi regime. They were routinely sent to concentration camps and marked with a pink triangle on their prison garb.
They were not systematically exterminated. But huge numbers are believed to have died in the work camps, along with an untold number of homosexual Jews, Gypsies and other “defectives” who were sent to extermination camps.
The myth that Nazis condoned or promoted homosexuality sprang up as a slander against Nazi leaders by their socialist opponents in the 1930s. Only one of the half-dozen leaders in Hitler’s inner circle, Ernest Rohm, is believed by credible historians to have been gay.
The “gay Nazi” slander stuck, though, partly because German laws against homosexuals remained in place for a quarter of a century after World War II ended. That effectively silenced many homosexual victims of the Holocaust from telling their stories. A landmark survivor’s memoir, The Men With the Pink Triangle, began to break that silence in 1972.
Read that whole piece, please. I’ll wait. And then you tell me whether or not Scott Lively is a Holocaust revisionist, Ms. Linda.
Now. Holocaust revisionism is anti-Semitism. Here’s the comment I made:
Oh, and Linda, “Holocaust revisionism” does not only apply to direct anti-semitism. Of course, it could be argued that Scott Lively is anti-semitic since he co-opts the Holocaust in order to lie about gay people, to satisfy whatever mental illness he suffers from. In fact, yes, now that I think of it, his work IS anti-semitism, because it belittles the reality of the Holocaust in order to score points. And by supporting him, you are supporting that strain of anti-semitism.
(Then again, all fundamentalist Christians are anti-semitic at their core, considering the fact that they actually believe their apocalyptical horseshit.)
And you just parrot right along with it, because you’re too virulent to see that if your Jesus was here, he’d probably lay you out like the Pharisee you are.
Let’s get this out of the way: There is one word in that comment I would change. I would remove the word “all.” Because, quite frankly, it was late, and I popped off. Because the truth of the matter is that many fundamentalist Christians do not realize that some the beliefs they are taught, and some of the beliefs which they espouse about the state of Israel are profoundly anti-Semitic. So it’s a mistake to say that they “all” are, because I’m quite sure that many who hold the beliefs I’m about to explain have never taken the time to reflect on the inherent anti-Semitism contained therein.
But that’s one word in a larger train of thought, which I will now flesh out, for the record: A particular and prominent belief system in Fundamentalist Evangelical Christianity is known as “Christian Zionism,” which is inspired by “pre-millenial dispensationalist” eschatology. (Think: Left Behind; Rapture Ready, etc.) In its simplest form, this means that these Christians believe that for Christ to return, the Jewish people must set up a state in Israel. (Done.) At which point:
Uri Avnery, is the leader of Gush Shalom, an Israeli peace group. He was discussing the theology of many Fundamentalist and other Evangelical Christians in a 2002-JUN essay, and wrote: “According to its theological beliefs, the Jews must congregate in Palestine and establish a Jewish state on all its territory so as to make the Second Coming of Jesus Christ possible…the evangelists don’t like to dwell openly on what comes next: before the coming [of the Messiah], the Jews must convert to Christianity. Those who don’t will perish in a gigantic holocaust in the battle of Armageddon. This is basically an anti-Semitic teaching…” 1 This teaching implies that Jews who remain true to God’s covenants in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) will be all exterminated in a massive genocide that may be more numerous than the Nazi Holocaust.
This theology is most popular (and growing) in extremely conservative, fundamentalist churches, from Pentecostal to Southern Baptist to non-denominational, etc.
It is an anti-Semitic belief system. Period! It takes all of the humanity away from the Jewish people and instead makes them pawns in the biggest “screw you” ever doled out by a (supposed) deity in human history! It ends the story that Fundamentalists believe started in the Garden of Eden by exterminating the race God called his “chosen.”
It is helpful to understand this, because often you will see fundamentalist Christians (John Hagee, etc.) expound on their deep, deep “support” for Israel. Indeed, in Peter’s “big mad Evan Hurst is so mean” post, he says this:
Surely Hurst is not unaware of the fact that the “fundamentalist” Christians he so obviously despises are historically a bastion of support for the State of Israel.
No, Pete. Evan Hurst is all too aware, and is just as cynical as many Jewish Americans about the supposed “support” Christian fundamentalists have for Israel. Because this belief system is not inspiring them to “support Israel” out of love for the Jewish people. It’s, rather, about propping up Israel so that Jesus will come back and take his final revenge on everybody they don’t like. Jews, gays, Muslims, you-name-it. Read Revelation 20. This is the moment of triumph in the premillenial dispensationalist Christian Fundamentalist worldview, which, again, is extremely popular in those circles. This is the moment where Jesus comes back and just cold kicks everybody’s ass. They project all of their perceived victimization onto this imaginary moment in the future where their white warrior will come back and avenge everything they claim to have suffered at the hands of, you know, whoever is upsetting them that day.
Could I have fleshed out that comment more at the time? Sure. Maybe I should’ve. Well, now I did!
But, Peter LaBarbera, for perhaps the first and last time, you’re right about one solitary thing: I shouldn’t have said “all.”
The rest of it stands.
At least Truth Wins Out has a comments section where people can air their views on things, as opposed to AFTAH, where freedom of thought, expression, and even occasionally poorly worded popping off is deemed far too threatening.
(Oh, and Peter does announce, finally, that he suddenly remembered to award the Gay Grinch award to Wayne! He forgot to do it for three months, because, well, you see, what had happened was…)
RELATED: Peter earlier issued a quote-unquote challenge to me, to Wayne, and to Jeremy Hooper, Joe Jervis and Rea Carey to answer a question that this site and Good-As-You have already answered at length: Should other groups like the Catholic Church and the Family Research Council also be classified in the same SPLC-certified hate-boat upon which Peter now sets sail? There is a simple answer: that the SPLC has very specific guidelines for what crosses over into “hate” territory, which they use to decide who is indeed a force for genuine hatred in this country. That’s the simple answer. For a more fleshed out answer, may I recommend that you visit Good-As-You because Jeremy took the ball and ran with that question.
UPDATE: Joe.My.God has also now responded to Peter’s Hate Challenge Wolverine Wankfest or whatever it is.
First — I WON the Gay Grinch Award!!! Wow, it’s like an Oscar, without the glamor and prestige. But, I’m still damn proud.
Second, as a Jewish person and a strong supporter of Israel, conditional support of Israel based on Biblical fanaticism is not wanted, nor is it needed. It is actually counterproductive. Porno Pete and Linda Harvey can keep their support. It is unhelpful.
Finally, Americans For Truth is a hate group that is much worse than other organizations. For instance, at least Focus on the Family and Rick Warren were smart enough to know to back away from the Uganda situation. Only true haters, like Linda Harvey and Porno Pete defended such violence. This this complete and total hate – a desire to see LGBT people persecuted, eliminated or even annihilated is what sets these creeps apart.
The hate designation was earned and well deserved.
Yeah, sorry to bury the lede. ;)
“Copyright issues,” he said.
Because making up and doling out internet awards, which are little more than nicknames in blog posts, is fraught with legal potholes the depths of which you and I could never imagine.
*Real* scholars and theologians have made very cogent arguments asserting that the book of Revelation was written for and about the people of that time period. It was never intended as a roadmap to the ‘end of days’ 2000 years into the future. (Even Nostradamus didn’t attempt that feat). As usual the talibangelists have gotten it all WRONG!
The apparent fact that Linda and Peter do not self-identify as haters is pretty much irrelevant. It’s like the saying about the animal who walks, swims, looks, and quacks like a duck. It most likely is a duck regardless of how the animal self-identifies. Or like the guy who regularly seeks sex with men, but insists he is not gay.
One way to determine if someone should be labeled a “hater” is to imagine that their message is the only one out there, with no counter-messages. And then imagine what the results in society would be. In the case of LaBarbera the results would include known-gays being fired from their jobs, evicted from apartments, officially regarded as criminals, viciously bullied in school, disowned by their parents, beaten and sometimes killed, and often driven to suicide. So if devoting ones life, as LaBarbera does, to advocating policies that would produce those results doesn’t qualify as hate, then I don’t know what does.
And furthermore, it’s not as if LaBarbera and Harvey can plead ignorant of what the likely results of their message would be if theirs was the only one out there. We have been there in the not-too-distant past, where all the specific results I cited were common. And some of it is still happening.
CONGRATULATIONS EVAN!
There is no point writing any of this if the nutbags and fanatics like Harvey and LaBarbera aren’t hollering and ranting and raving and screaming about what you write. If they do not, then you have failed.
It is a pleasure to see them do this.
by the way, the serious fundamentalist – and Fred Phelps proves this – has to be anti-semitic, as per 1 Thessalonians 2:14 to 16. According to the lunatic author of that screed, Jews and their eternal descendants are guilty for the death of the supposed saviour. (supposed, since there is no concrete evidence for Jesus, although there were plenty of eccentric preachers around at the time).
Congrats to Wayne on winning the gay grinch award!
But I was more impressed when Petey called you “The bad boy of buggery”
Adrian– lovely passage there. Makes you kinda understand where hitler and Phelpsie got it.
kinda.
Responding to adrianT;
Fred Phelps is not representative of Evangelical Christians. He runs a small anti-gay cult. He needs
to repent.
Regarding the passage below, I come from a Jewish background and I know that the passages have been taken out of context by the hateful and ignorant but Paul was
not a lunatic nor hateful. He was angry over the attacks
by certain Jewsish leaders who were hunting down and killing Christians as he also did before his conversion.
There is nothing about the “eternal decendents” of the Jews being guilty for Jesus’ death. That interpretation was invented by those who hate Jews. Paul’s statements below are theological statements, not political statements.
1 Thessalonians 2:14 to 1614
For you, brothers, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews,
15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men
16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.
I actually think it’s a mistake to focus on Phelps too much, because there are far more mainstream figures within Evangelical Fundamentalist Christianity who are every bit as hateful as Phelps (and more)…like Peter and Linda. ;)
Phelps is a dog and pony show who craves attention. Peter and Linda actually think that they’re following the example set forth by the Christ, which shows you how demented they really are.
Oh, and Adrian:
“There is no point writing any of this if the nutbags and fanatics like Harvey and LaBarbera aren’t hollering and ranting and raving and screaming about what you write. If they do not, then you have failed.
It is a pleasure to see them do this.”
— I know, right?!
I am a proud, contributing member to the SPLC and I am also a proud member and volunteer at the SIMON WEISENTHAL, Museum of Tolerance in Los Angeles. It is a Holocaust archival and anti hate educational center. If Scott Lively had bothered to attend said institution, OR the Holocaust Museum in D.C. or consulted with the Anti Defamation League (that recently lost it’s founder), then Lively himself would know that he’s committing an egregious act of serious proportions.
To divert the blame and shame of the Holocaust TOWARDS a segment of it’s victims IS an act of anti Semitism. It trivializes the menace and perniciousness of the very propaganda that LaBarbera and Harvey themselves deal in.
If any of these people really knew the history of Jim Crow, the Holocaust or the pogroms of Mao Tse Tung and so on, and they were TRULY good Christians besides, they’d understand that any form of information that deliberately defames, demonizes a minority, and exploits fear and ignorance for the purpose of depriving that minority of basic, civil and equal rights: than LaBarbara DOES meet that criteria.
And as Richard Rush points out, it’s the RESULTS of anti gay activity that is acute, negative and direct.
The results are not theoretical and the very Constitution state or federal is now being used as a tool of discrimination exclusively against gay citizens.
I’m beyond offended that LaBarbera DOES complain. I DARE him to contact ME and I’ll take him on a tour of the Museum of Tolerance. A place that I recommend to new LA residents and all my visitors.
I’m offended that Lively does what he does, and that Harvey and LaBarbera support him. They are ignorant, disgusting cowards playing with an important part of history they choose to have repeated because they feel safe it won’t affect them.
The things that Jews were blamed for, rings VERY similarly to what gay people are blamed for now. And gay people have paid the price in exactly what Mr. Rush has mentioned, just as Jews have as well.
And just as similarly, Jews and gay people have been on the receiving end of the longest hatred known to man.
Well said.
It’s actually been argued before, by Amanda Marcotte, that the anti-gay slurs and lies propagated by Peter, Linda, Scott Lively, the authors of the Uganda bill, et al., are indeed a modern day permutation of the blood libel that was used for centuries against Jews. They even both feature the “they’re coming after your kids” meme, albeit in different ways.