For the past two days I observed The Awakening, a two day extremist conference that took place at Liberty University in Lynchburg, VA. In-depth commentary and analysis will be provided later when I return to New York City.
For now, here are a few pictures from the event. Yes, that is me posing with Liberty Counsel’s Matt “Bam Bam” Barber. In the other picture, Matt is with Andrea Lafferty of the Traditional Values Coalition and Rena Lindevaldsen, Esq.
The big news here is that radical cleric Lou Engle of The Call conceded, at a the LGBT Agenda breakout session, that the next generation is largely supportive of LGBT rights. (but not on abortion) He claims that the far right has lost on this issue barring a miracle, such as an intercession at a 500,000 youth rally that Engle floated to the activists on-stage and in the audience. Matt Barber said they should privately discuss such a rally after the forum.
Good luck with that idea, considering the breakout session at the late Jerry Falwell’s university drew only fifteen people – two of whom were observers from progressive organizations. The rest of the crowd were hard core anti-gay activists from groups like PFOX.
Unfortunately, I was “outed” at the session by Lafferty which made me about as comfortable as a fly landing on a porcupine. She asked me if I had any questions. I looked around the room and saw no movable middle in this bunch, so I declined. I preferred to plead the 5th, to ensure I could attend the big rally that was planned for the evening.
Check in later for more observations on the conference and rally.
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Wayne, you deserve a medal for pleading the fifth. I would have gone straight for the jugular.
Comment by a. mcewen — April 17, 2010 @ 9:26 am
I love this stuff. As the faithful camp loses their youth to carry on their legacy, they must move on to other methods. This means that their stealthy motives and methods will become less transparent and the public will notice. ‘Gotcha’ moments are just ahead.
Comment by Bob Barnes — April 17, 2010 @ 9:46 am
Bam Bam got some snazzy new frames, didn’t he?
And Wayne, your flannel drag wasn’t anywhere near as bad as I imagined it. ;-)
Comment by Evan Hurst — April 17, 2010 @ 10:43 am
we need to make you a better costume for disguise. Lumberjack just doesn’t work anymore.
Comment by Chris Marshall — April 17, 2010 @ 12:45 pm
[...] Wayne reported below, he went to Liberty U in Lynchburg, VA (emphasis on the “lynch”) this week to a [...]
Pingback by Truth Wins Out - Wayne Went to the Gatherin’ O’ the Crazies at Liberty University; Peter LaBarbera — April 17, 2010 @ 1:36 pm
I think Wayne looks cute, so there.
Maybe these morons will get it through their thick “praaayes Jaaaaaazus” skulls that, sooner or later, they are going to be defeated completely.
Comment by Merlyn — April 17, 2010 @ 5:46 pm
[...] his report on the conference is a little skewed but to be [...]
Pingback by How do you treat your fellow Man | Frank Talk — April 18, 2010 @ 7:57 am
Dear Wayne,
We are praying for you! We are so glad that you went to the conference and heard the truth, and our hope and prayer is that God will continue to be merciful to you and to open your eyes.
Blessings,
Don and Linda Burris
Comment by Don and Linda Burris — April 18, 2010 @ 8:06 am
Wayne Besen: God loves you and will forgive you your sexual deviancy because he is a merciful God. However, He is also just so He WILL condemn you to an eternity in Hell BECAUSE He is just. Your continued sexual sin and mockery of His will require it as surely as you lied about your experiences at 2010’s The Awakening.
Comment by Edward — April 18, 2010 @ 9:25 am
Edward don’t you think the punishment should fit the crime? Since when does a finite act, especially one that harms no one, deserve an infinite punishment? Edward you call the imaginary act of a monster “just” – you have no sense of right and wrong whatsoever.
Comment by Priya Lynn — April 18, 2010 @ 9:51 am
At a conference where it is claimed that a pro-gay law will cause disabled veterans to be molested you all hope that wayne will “receive” the truth?
talk about your screwed up ideas of truth.
Comment by a. mcewen — April 18, 2010 @ 9:55 am
I am so happy you went to the Awakening Wayne! Goes to show how you are waking up. I understand how you have to save face and post lies here about your experience there. I know I HAVE BEEN there.
I am young and used to be “searching” for something with more meaning than the lies being fed to me by my fellow gays. Who knew I’d find it in the enemy camp of those “evil” christians.
Oh and Bob Barnes, MANY of those “youth” are finding their way to the “faithful camp” — I know, I am one of them ;)
Comment by A Friend — April 18, 2010 @ 10:12 am
Dear Priya,
I used to be an atheist. I was involved in a cult (Scientology) as well as drugs and immorality, so I know that there really are monsters out there!
Actually it was my own sinful heart that was the biggest monster of all. I had no way to save myself from my degradation, though truthfully I was very prideful and would not admit that to anyone. I pretended that I was in control of my destiny, when actually I was on a highway to hell.
I hope you too soon come to know that it is not God who is the monster. He must punish sin, yes, but in His mercy He provided a way for those who believe in Jesus Christ to be forgiven. Sadly, many are still rebellious (as I was) and choose not to take His provision. I am so very thankful that 30 years ago God opened my eyes. Though we all deserve the punishment of an eternal hell, only those who reject God’s free gift of salvation will reside there.
Love in Christ,
Linda Burris
Comment by Don and Linda Burris — April 18, 2010 @ 10:24 am
Mr. Barber was correct. I was searching for something. The exit to the room.
I will have my full report on The Awakening on Monday. All sorts of good stuff and information.
I did thank God while in Lynchburg. I praised him for not making me a fundamentalist. He replied: “You are here to show them the error of their ways.”
Comment by Wayne Besen — April 18, 2010 @ 10:24 am
Oy vey, if any of you really thinks that seeing the conference at Liberty up close, the type of thing that progressives monitor on a regular basis, would somehow make Wayne MORE susceptible to being infected by their message, you’re deluding yourselves. Here’s the thing: We already have done our research, and we already know when those fools are lying. (Usually, it starts when they open their mouths and stops about 10 seconds after they close them, as absurd, egregious, malevolent lies tend to hand in the air for a bit.)
Edward, your concept of “justice” is insane. Humanity has evolved beyond your ideas, which is why the criminal justice system in the West recognizes degrees of crime, factors in motivations and circumstances, and, with the exception of the United States, has completely abandoned the death penalty. There are places where Bible-style justice is still handed out. Iran is a good example. (Different book, same philosophy.)
And “A Friend”: Your comment is absolutely silly. By your same logic, a journalist covering a teabagging rally would also be “waking up” to being a teabagger, when most journalists, after witnessing one of those transmogrified cesspits of humanity, struggle to find something nice to say. It’s called a job.
Anyway.
Comment by Evan Hurst — April 18, 2010 @ 10:26 am
“I hope you too soon come to know that it is not God who is the monster. He must punish sin, yes, but in His mercy He provided a way for those who believe in Jesus Christ to be forgiven.”
This is so sick.
Let me repurpose it a little bit.
“Daddy must rape people, yes, but in His mercy, He provided a way for those who whisper the magic incantation to avoid being raped.”
Therefore those who don’t say the magic mekka-mekka-hi-mekka-hiney-ho DESERVE to be raped! Definition of grace!
Comment by Evan Hurst — April 18, 2010 @ 10:28 am
Hi, Evan.
I have heard your anger.
I have heard your logic.
I haven’t heard, though, your thoughts on afterlife.
What do you believe?
Linda
Comment by Don and Linda Burris — April 18, 2010 @ 10:54 am
What you perceive as anger is in reality a crutch you are using to deflect attention from the point of the conversation, a meager attempt to claim moral superiority and to elevate the idea that if only I had Jesus, I would be sweet like you. A thought on that: most people who mince words and cloak everything in a veneer of “being nice” are unhappy people indeed, because they hide from the reality of everyday experience.
As to my beliefs about “the afterlife,” they are similar to my beliefs in magic ponies, in that there is no evidence for an afterlife, and therefore no rational reason to believe in one. Everything we think of as a “soul” is being shown, piece by piece, to be the simple workings of our highly evolved brains. When the brain stops, we do.
Comment by Evan Hurst — April 18, 2010 @ 11:11 am
But just so we are clear, Linda, or Don, or whichever one of you is using the shared moniker, I used to be an Evangelical Christian. I came to my atheism as a result of rational reconsideration of the beliefs I was raised with and once held fervently.
Comment by Evan Hurst — April 18, 2010 @ 11:15 am
Evan,
Don and I write things together, but right now I am the one writing since I was telling about my own life in an earlier post (to which you responded).
Sorry if I offended you. You sounded pretty angry, and I was just calling a spade a spade. No big deal. I get angry, too. So, there was no need for a crutch, as you called it, because really I was not aware you would be sensitive on that point. I actually thought you would readily admit that you were angry with those of us who believe in the Bible as God’s word…and who believe homosexuals can choose to live a pure life.
By the way, I can not claim moral superiority, since I believe in the Bible and it says we have all sinned. I know the only difference between me and you is Jesus. Period.
Linda
Comment by Don and Linda Burris — April 18, 2010 @ 12:00 pm
God, Linda, you’re doing it again:
“So, there was no need for a crutch, as you called it, because really I was not aware you would be sensitive on that point. I actually thought you would readily admit that you were angry with those of us who believe in the Bible as God’ word…and who believe homosexuals can choose to live a pure life.”
To any who are reading, where did I lash out in anger against Linda? Do you see how manipulative these people are? I wasn’t being “sensitive,” was I? No. I merely pointed out the manipulative method Linda is using to try to snake her way in and make her sales pitch for Jesus, because people like her view every warm body as prey for their worldview. They call it “witnessing.” But no, Linda is now saying “Oh, I’m sorry you’re sensitive” on that point, again, as a way to deflect attention from the actual conversation, which is that the people running the Liberty conference, the people who run the organizations she espouses, are liars. One need not be angry to demonstrably show a person to be a liar. It is not unkind. It is simply factual. This website is chock full of examples of the people at the Liberty conference lying through their teeth, and it’s also chock full of real world testimonial of the harm they bring to people on a regular basis.
I do live a pure life, Linda, by the way. But I will not deny myself the opportunity to be the most important person in someone’s life, as you would so callously wish, in order to appease the whims of your version of a god whose existence you will never be able to prove.
If you call that anger, I’m sorry. Perhaps you’re just not used to being spoken to in a manner that isn’t deferential to your worldview.
Comment by Evan Hurst — April 18, 2010 @ 12:10 pm
There is no evidence that the Bible is anything but a book written by humans. None whatsover.
Furthermore, if you believe in hell, then the God you worship is a sadist. And we don’t need a lecture on morality from someone who thinks a being who gets his jollies creating a supernatural concentration camp for the purpose of torturing people forever, and a bunch of excuses for sending them there, is a being who deserves praise and devotion.
Comment by Bill S — April 18, 2010 @ 12:13 pm
Wayne Besen’ self-serving and inaccurate account of “The Awakening 2010‚Ä? panel can be found on his website HERE.
LYNCHBURG, Va. ‚Äî Wayne Besen, extremist homosexual blogger and “ex-gay denier” (as Matt Barber calls those who shun the existence of the untold thousands of former homosexuals) has pulled off the granddaddy of all homosexualist spy missions. Having apparently dyed his hair, growing several days worth of scruff, dawning shabby clothing and sporting a backpack to appear as a Liberty University Student, Besen infiltrated the Awakening 2010 conference at Liberty University held this past Thursday and Friday [April 15-16].
Among other sessions, Besen attended the panel covering homosexual issues given by Matt Barber, Liberty Counsel attorney and AFTAH board member, Rena Lindevaldsen, professor with Liberty Law and Andrea Lafferty of the Traditional Values Coalition.
With incredible stealth and skill, Besen was able to slip past the Awakening’ extremely tight security and blend in among the gathering of right-wing extremist homophobes. (The event was free of charge and open to the public.)
Matt Barber has provided an account of the intense confrontation which followed (some of which will soon be available on archived video):
“A few minutes after we began our breakout session on “LGBT’ issues, Wayne slipped in the back of the room, sat down, put his head down and began gazing side-to-side as if expecting to be knocked from his chair and dragged away at any moment. I immediately recognized him.
“As we were wrapping-up and preparing for questions, I “called Wayne out,’ announced that we had a homosexual activist guest with us and asked Wayne if he’d like to give out his Web site which he did. I told him “welcome’ and Andrea Lafferty then asked if he had any questions. He stuttered, stammered and in a nearly inaudible voice said, “uh, no.’ Poor guy looked as if he’d seen a ghost.
“Afterward I approached Wayne, shook his hand and told him we were very glad to have him. A few other people visited with him as well. He was clearly confused and taken-aback by the kindness he received. The cognitive dissonance on his face was evident to all as he’ apparently bought-in to his own hyperbolic rhetoric which demonizes Christians as “hateful, bigoted homophobes.’
“Wayne asked for a picture, and I joked, “sure, as long as you promise not to Photoshop horns on my head.’ We visited a bit more and I told Wayne “God bless you’ and wished him safe travels on his way home to New York and on his upcoming trip to Ireland which he shared about. I have to say, although Wayne puts on an awfully tough front for his fellow homosexual activists, the guy was a real kitten in person and even seemed like he might be a genuinely nice fellow when you get him away from the safety and security of his computer.
“It’ my hope and prayer that the Holy Spirit planted a seed in Wayne’ heart and soul while he was at Liberty. I know that God had him there for a reason. I’d love to sit down with him sometime over a cup of coffee and share my own story of how the Lord freed me from a life of sexual sin (a testimony I’ve publicly shared in the past).
“As a young man, I didn’t always view God’ daughters as He does, but rather, saw them as sexual objects for my conquest. After years of promiscuous womanizing, a painful divorce and hitting rock bottom, God decided it was time to “call me out’ and to His worship and Service.
“I haven’t looked back and am now married to a beautiful, Godly woman who valued purity but forgave my own lack thereof. I have three beautiful children and, on a daily basis, have the joy of experiencing an indescribable relationship with the Lord of the universe Who became manifest in the person of Jesus Christ.
“Meeting Wayne in person, it was clear to me that he is searching. It is my hope and prayer that he and all who struggle with same-sex attraction, live a life of heterosexual or homosexual promiscuity or adultery, or anyone else for that matter, can come to know the life-changing, life-saving, life-making grace and redemption that can only come through surrender, belief and acceptance of Christ Jesus.
“I pledge to pray for Wayne and would ask everyone reading this to do the same. The Lord could use mightily, this talented, passionate young man whom He knows and loves.”
Comment by Dimitry — April 18, 2010 @ 12:16 pm
It’s ok, Evan.
You still sound angry, but I will take your word for it that you are not. I’m glad to know that we are not angry with each other.
Could you explain to me why you think the people at the Liberty conference are lying when they explain that homosexuals can choose a different lifestyle? Especially when there actually are many people who have done exactly that?
Linda
Comment by Don and Linda Burris — April 18, 2010 @ 12:16 pm
Wayne,
We’re curious.
If you were looking for the exit, why did you stay?
And, if God replied to you, “You are here to show them the error of their ways,” why did you remain silent?
Just wondering.
Don and Linda Burris
Comment by Don and Linda Burris — April 18, 2010 @ 12:19 pm
It’s amazing the semantic argument you are trying to throw at Evan implying that he is one of “those loud angry homosexuals.” The people in the Liberty conference lie because they imply that being gay is a bad thing, which for so many of us it isn’t. People can “choose” to lie to themselves about their sexual orientation but that isn’t healthy, is it?
Furthermore, I always find it funny regarding the hypocrisy of those who try to term homosexuality into a purely religious issue as a way to avoid talking about the inaccurate things said about the gay community by so-called Christians – like those at the Liberty conference.
You like to talk about God and Jesus, Don and Linda but do followers of Christ:
knowingly lie about pro-gay laws,
spread the distorted studies of a man who believe that gays stuff gerbils up their rectums,
create a pattern of junk science in order to defame and stigmatize gays and lesbians.
The people at that conference have. But you defend them. And you wonder why so many of us don’t take you seriously.
All of your talk of “love for the homosexual” is ballast unless you face up to and confront the lies told about the lgbt community by folks on your side of the spectrum.
Comment by a. mcewen — April 18, 2010 @ 12:27 pm
Linda, you said:
“Could you explain to me why you think the people at the Liberty conference are lying when they explain that homosexuals can choose a different lifestyle? Especially when there actually are many people who have done exactly that?”
Because the different “chosen lifestyle” they sell is harmful, because it denies everything we know to be true (based on SCIENCE and RESEARCH, rather than functionally illiterate interpretations of ancient religious texts) about human sexuality. ALL credible mental health and medical associations have shown, repeatedly, that attempts to repress or change one’s sexuality are harmful. There is no debate on this. There is science and research, and then there is the knuckle-dragging, barking noise of people who wish to believe that science and research are not true. At Truth Wins Out, we are closely involved with the people who go through those programs, and we are well aware that those who go through them do NOT change their sexual orientation, and are often deeply psychologically scarred by the programs and the teaching. So yes, a person may, under the predatory influence of a church, family or society which teaches them from a very young age that they are inherently evil, choose to try to circumcise from himself that which is inherent, which is natural throughout humanity and throughout the animal kingdom, and that which has been shown, repeatedly, to be no more nor any less healthy, in and of itself, than heterosexual orientation. They may buy into the Religious Right’s bait and switch which teaches them to blame their own shitty choices or life circumstances on their sexuality, and when they do, it’s sad. Usually, the people who get caught up in that particular cult are very broken people indeed, rejected by family and friends, convinced by those who they trust that they are not good enough for God. You won’t find the happy, healthy gay couple that has been together for 30 years in any way susceptible to being infected by Religious Right dogma, because they know full well that it’s a lie. No, your kind preys on the weak, just as Evangelical mission work tends to focus on people who are so hungry that they’ll pray any prayer you want as long as you give them a piece of bread to fill an inch of their distended stomachs.
That is how they are lying. All credible research on the subject has shown that what makes gay people more likely to kill themselves, more likely to engage in risky sexual behavior, etc., is societal, familial, and religious stigma. Because the entire MO of your organizations, your churches, your worldview, devalues them as human beings, and those who fall prey to it, in whatever way, often become so dehumanized that they don’t care.
The blood is on your hands.
Comment by Evan Hurst — April 18, 2010 @ 12:32 pm
@Linda:
“You sound pretty angry” is just a silencing tactic meant to (passive-aggressively) make people feel guilty for standing up for themselves, and to let you avoid listening to what they have to say.
Shame on you.
See: Derailing for Dummies — “You’re Being Hostile”
Derailing for Dummies — “You’re Being Overemotional”
We just can’t win with you, can we? If we’re angry, we’re in the wrong. If we’re not angry, then we’re lying.
Your comments reek of condescension and passive-aggression.
Comment by Makyui — April 18, 2010 @ 12:37 pm
“Wayne,
We’re curious.
If you were looking for the exit, why did you stay?”
Because it’s his job to monitor things like this conference. Have you seen the tagline at the top of this website? “Fighting anti-gay lies and the ex-gay myth.” That is what we do. This is not a hard concept.
Comment by Evan Hurst — April 18, 2010 @ 12:37 pm
“Could you explain to me why you think the people at the Liberty conference are lying when they explain that homosexuals can choose a different lifestyle? Especially when there actually are many people who have done exactly that?”
You mean the ones who dropped out of ex-gay ministries because they realized it wasn’t working, the ones who killed themselves because the ex-gay ministries weren’t working, the ones who still “struggle with homosexual urges” even while forced to live a celibate life because that’s the only alternative they have, or the ones who lie about it because they know that’s what their “care”takers want to hear?
Comment by Makyui — April 18, 2010 @ 12:42 pm
Do you ever have that horrible feeling that you’re in the presence of evil? I do when I find people who want to tamper with other people’ natural homosexuality and replace it with pseudo-heterosexuality, or who want to prevent gays from forming loving sexual relationships. That feeling is intensified when I hear them trying to justify their stance by telling lies.
Comment by William — April 18, 2010 @ 12:44 pm
And worse, Makyui, the ones who marry members of the opposite sex while openly admitting that they still are sexually attracted to the same sex. Like this guy.
Comment by Evan Hurst — April 18, 2010 @ 12:45 pm
Ugh. Yep, Evan, and those ones, too. Those are particularly tragic, because they affect more than just the victim/s of the ministries.
All that pain could’ve been avoided if he wasn’t guilted into thinking that he was dirty and shameful and broken for being who he is, based on nothing but superstition.
Comment by Makyui — April 18, 2010 @ 12:55 pm
We’re glad Evan says he was not angry.
We should be able to have a decent conversation in that case.
Like staying on the topic rather than bringing up a whole list of grievances that hasn’t been mentioned.
To A. Moewan: Did you attend the conference to hear the lies you say they told?
To Evan: We disagree that homosexuality is normal, healthy or inherent.
To Makyui: We’re not trying to “win”…we just believe the Bible is true.
To William: How do you define evil? The Bible says that all wrongdoing is sin.
Don and Linda
Comment by Don and Linda Burris — April 18, 2010 @ 1:15 pm
who knew dodging questions was a christian virtue?
Amongst there things, when Andrea Lafferty said that ENDA would lead to the VA molesting disabled veterans:
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/Lafferty-ENDA-molest-veterans
Comment by a. mcewen — April 18, 2010 @ 1:21 pm
“”I pledge to pray for Wayne and would ask everyone reading this to do the same. The Lord could use mightily, this talented, passionate young man whom He knows and loves.”
And how do you know that wayne isn’t God’s instrument in trying to get you to wake pu and stop persecuting gay people?
Comment by Ben in Oakland — April 18, 2010 @ 1:26 pm
“Like staying on the topic rather than bringing up a whole list of grievances that hasn’t been mentioned.”
So says the commenter derailing the topic with questions like, “What are your beliefs on the afterlife?” and “How do you define evil?”
You are trying to “win”, which is why you’re here, arguing with people and trying to lure in followers with nonsense.
Comment by Makyui — April 18, 2010 @ 1:29 pm
Thanks, Dimitry, for posting that article by Americans for Truth About Homosexuality.
The link is
http://americansfortruth.com/news/besens-spy-mission-uncovers-christian-kindness.html
Don and Linda
Comment by Don and Linda Burris — April 18, 2010 @ 1:30 pm
Hi, Makyui,
The subject of the afterlife is not at all off of the topic, since we are talking about sin.
So, did you attend the conference?
Don and Linda
Comment by Don and Linda Burris — April 18, 2010 @ 1:32 pm
Don and Linda Burris, where does the supreme arrogance to deign you know someone ELSES sexuality better than they do comes from? For me, it is normal, healthy and utterly inherent. I know myself.
I know what my pastor at my Presbyterian Church tells, me, and my friends at the Lutheran Church down the street…and I look at the lives they live, and the examples I see of the people who go to fundamentalist conferences out of 1) fear 2) loathing they actually think is love (the sad part, from personal experience, is that on some level, they actually belive this…but deep down, you know better…seen it, over and over).
I know a lot of Ex ex gays. And I am being a friend now to a guy who is now married to a woman, is shown as a “success story” of “reparative therapy” and crys on my shoulder over the guilt he feels for lying, and worse, for the hurt he knows, eventually, he will casue the woman he is married to.
There are starving children in this world. There is lose and injustice and real need. Don and Linda, get a real use for your life, and, if I may say it, look into a higher quality church if your own is still encouraging this sort of thinking from you. You two, millions of Gay people and our families, and God will be happy you did.
Comment by Kelly — April 18, 2010 @ 1:34 pm
yes thank u dimitry. it was amusing.
also don and linda, you still avoid my question. so much for integrity.
Comment by a. mcewen — April 18, 2010 @ 1:35 pm
Yes, it is off the topic. We are talking about a gathering of bigoted individuals, who gathered together to spread the same ol’ bullcrap that bigoted individuals are wont to spread. Unless you’re admitting that this is a sin, the one who’s off-topic is you.
You’re a guest here, Linda, and it’s not your place to decide the topic of the discussion.
Comment by Makyui — April 18, 2010 @ 1:40 pm
Don and Linda: To define good and evil is a formidable task, and one to which I don’t feel equal, but we all know what we mean by those terms, even if we don’t always agree on whether certain things are good or evil.
Everyone would agree that the sexual abuse of children is evil — everyone, that is, except those who inflict it and who tell themselves and others that it isn’t “really” abuse. Attempts to separate gay people from their natural sexuality constitute a form of psychological and spiritual abuse and are therefore evil, although those who inflict such abuse likewise tell themselves and others that it isn’t “really” abuse. That they are sincere is neither here nor there. Mistaken beliefs, including — and perhaps especially including — mistaken religious beliefs, can make people who are not at heart bad people do some very bad and cruel things. As the late Sir Oliver Lodge wrote, “There is no wickedness so violent as that organized by the fanatic who thinks he is doing God service.”
Comment by William — April 18, 2010 @ 1:44 pm
Here’s something I wrote a few months ago. Entirely relevant for don and Linda.
I was going to stay out of this interchange between the Humans and the Evil Homobigot and his sidekick, Little Ms. Sonshine. But it’s a rainy day, and since I have a lengthy polemic to write as to why we lost another one that we should have won due to a not-as-but-nevertheless-still closeted political campaign, I need to sharpen my pen a bit. So here goes.
It never ceases to amaze me as I watch the religionists enact and re-enact their homo-hatred, finding always some way to express their antipathy towards people they do not know, know nothing about, and who have done them no harm– well, I should say no DEMONSTRABLE harm, apart from offending them by existing. And of course, it is even more offensive when they must rationalize the damage they do to gay people as a show of faith and virtue. “Love the sinner and hate the sin” erases the fine and necessary line between hypocrisy and sarcasm, for as Rochefoucauld noted sarcastically, hypocrisy is the homage that vice pays to virtue.
Or, as Mark Twain so ably put it, nothing needs minding so much as other people’s business.
The Evil HomoBigot (EHB) has AUTHORITY as his prop. He has his bible clutched firmly in his left hand, proclaiming in Buchananesque fashion his divine and moral imperative to stop the Doers of Manly Evil, though lesbos are really hawt! And the Scalia-stained fingers of his right hand, cupping both urbis and orbi, dripping with self righteousness, proclaim his legal rights to attack. “We can do whatever we want to you because we believe everything we think, and there are more of us than there are of you.” That sums it up nicely. Of course, they do not answer the questions of who, precisely, is us, and who, precisely, is you, and why someone might assume that “you” is excluded from “us”. It is a tale oft-repeated whenever there’s yet another homo-hating-homo caught a-shaking his cassock at the altar boy. Or like that nice Archbishop in Canada, caught with child porn on his church-issued laptop.
All this to keep someone else’s rampant homosexuality in check lest it turn everyone queer. Or something.
After all, it worked so well for Larry Craig, Bob Allen, Ted Haggard, Lonnie Latham, and a good portion of the non-heterosexual clerics. Dare we say their taste is catholic?
Little Miss Sonshine (LMS)? Well, she basks in the Eternal Sonshine of Her Spotless Mind. She doesn’t hate or despise or devalue or think less of or denigrate anyone, just like Jesus. She loves everyone, just like Jesus. She doesn’t want to control anyone, or deprive them of anything except their sins. And she knows, of course, all about other people’s sins. She only wants you to know Jesus like she knows Jesus… and oh, oh, oh what a girl! And certainly, she is not judging anyone. She’s just reporting the news, just like an apostle of Jesus. That much holiness can really get the juices flowing.
There isn’t even the faintest whiff of judgment anywhere, because that would make her very much not like Jesus, and her mind would no longer be spotless. She might have to think, to be conscious that she does very real harm to people whom she does not know, and whose lives and happiness have no effect on hers. As Jesus himself would have noted, spotlessness is simple, especially when it is purchased with the easy coin of other people’s lives. It wouldn’t even cost 30 pieces of silver. Just a smile and a vote. Ask Miss CarriePornia.
Actually, Jesus did note that simplicity every time he said, “Judge not!” or “Scribes. Pharisees. Hypocrites.” And I’m sure he would have added fundamentalist Christians to the list, had he known any– or wanted to.
EHB and LMS form the pattern and ground, if you will a literal yin and yang, of a single object– anti-gay prejudice, or homohatred– that is both the cash cow (Naggie Gallagher) and the pornography (The Peter) of the Religious Reich, and its bastard child, the anti-gay industry. It’s very appropriate to compare pornography and the anti-gay industry, because both make a lot of money from the fascination we have with all sex in our deeply puritanical culture. EHB and LMS, like that other yin and yang, Naggie and Peter– now there’s an image you don’t want comin’ atcha in the middle of the night– believe, without question, and possibly even sincerely, that they might possibly understand something that might theoretically be, in a vague, general, sort of a way, about homosexuality, as least as far as it was understood by desert tribes 2000 years ago and 8000 miles away, in a book that some people think has divine authority, in one or another of its legion of versions. They certainly knew the value of pi (3), women (none), shrimp (don’t), bacon (don’t), and animal sacrifice to appease a vengeful god (doesn’t work). Why wouldn’t they know something about this?
And of course, we would understand it. This book that has gone through 2000-3000 years of translation, interpretation, redaction, editing, misunderstanding, political meddling, confusion, retranslation, reinterpretation and– dare we say it?– MISUSE. Also, the only authority for that claim of authority is said book and the beliefs of people just like EHB and LMS, despite all of the contradictions and disagreements about this book.
And despite the fact that 2/3 of the world’s population thinks this book is utter nonsense. but of course, they are going to burn in hell FOREVER, sent there by their loving god, because they DIDN’T GET THE MEMO.
As an entirely relevant aside, 1/6 of the world knows FOR A FACT that the Midianite Storm God formerly known as El was neither Prince (of Peace) nor incarnate Son of God. Jesus was just a prophet, as his church is just for profit. Allahu akbar!!! The final revelation of El was given to yet another desert dweller with an agenda for the Ages, and a sword to enforce it. Inshallah!! Just bend over and face the east, and I’ll show you heaven!
If the majority is supposed to win because they have The Truth (TM), there are more of them and they say so, I think we can see the future of Christianity… if the world were ever to have a popular vote on the subjects on the true nature of god, of who it is that god doesn’t approve of, or who he wants us to hate, or whose lives and relationships and families are worthy of social support and rewards, and whose are not. Not that we would. We would never have a vote on other people’s participation in and value to society. We would never force our religious beliefs on other people. We would never persecute them and make their lives as difficult and unpleasant as possible, hounding them from New York to the middle of the uncharted west, say, for example, because we didn’t like their religious beliefs and marriage practices.
In fact, Scientology and mid-19th-century mid-Western unpleasantness aside, we would never have a vote on whose religious beliefs are going to be enforced by social policy and constitutional law in a society which claims it is egalitarian, free, secular, and committed to truth, justice, and the American Way. We wouldn’t do it because it would be wrong, because we want to do unto others what we would have them do unto us. Or something.
Unless it’s about gay people.
Not to mention the corruption of our nation, of our principles, our morals, and our laws, that is inherent in the process of cherry picking from the Bible what is useful in the service of the political, cultural, and social agendas of religious and political conservatives, to instill fear in their followers in exchange for their votes and their cash, or for keeping a job (you know who you are, AC), or exorcising your very own personal demons.
Or exercising them, if you’re a certain class of priest, politician, or youth minister. Send that boy an e-male, Congressman.
Subtext is everything. How can you say “I HATE QUEERS” without actually having to say “I HATE QUEERS”, especially if your religion tells you it is wrong to hate anyone? (Except, possibly,of course… actual QUEERS.) Why, if you’re LMS, you call it love, smile cheerfully, and congratulate yourself on your direct line to your very own Heavenly Substitute for Personal Responsibility. You wave goodbye to your handsome gay friends who will, unfortunately, burn in hell forever for their sins, and support efforts to strip other people who have done you no harm of the benefits for their families that you claim for your own. Too bad for them all. You’re just reporting the news, after all. It’s not like you actually care.
If you are the EHB, you grip that big ol’ club hard in both hands and start shaking it at not every sinner you see, but only at the ones you care about in some way for reasons that you would probably prefer not to articulate. Scampi lovers (OT) and adulterers (NT) need not fear the stroking of your mighty club. And then you enthusiastically support efforts to demonize and marginalize people whom you do not know and who have done you no harm.
I don’t know why. I only know there is no truth you and your kind will not distort and promulgate, no lie you will not tell or believe, no fear you will not excite in yourself or invoke in others, no dagger cut that you will not cheerfully deliver to someone, in service to that end. It actually reminds me quite a bit of the closet itself. The closet is about living a lie. It IS a lie, it is based on lies, and it engenders lies. It distorts, perverts, and debases everything it touches, as the sorry life of Ted Haggard will attest.
For you and your kind– I just love the power and superiority I feel when I say that! Don’t you?– the desire of gay people to end this vile, vicious, and wasteful prejudice is an affront and a threat. Homophobic heterosexuals, homo-hating homos, wanna-be-straight-but-ain’t’s, conservatives, right-wing Christians, and village idiots don’t have to question any of their assumptions, whether religious, social, political, or sexual– especially sexual, because that scares the living bejeesus out of them–don’t have to actually solve problems of divorce, adultery, family breakdown, and child abuse, don’t have to care about the waste of time and energy and money, don’t have to look in the logs in their own eyes, can continue to use The Children (TM) as pawns in their fear-based culture war, because they are fightin’ (other people’s) sins and expressing the clear will of God. And what an added bonus if your goal is power and/or money and/or eternal glory while you’re washing, swimming or backstroking in the Blood of the Lamb! What better way to ingratiate yourself with your concept of The Almighty One than to hate exactly what you have convinced yourself that he hates? And you get even more points if you can convince yourself that you love those sinners as he would have loved them, except for the part about, you know, ACTUALLY loving them in a way that doesn’t feel like an assault to them.
Pardon my zoological anomaly, but when did the Lamb of God become a scapegoat, Little Miss Sonshine? Evil HomoBigot, in service to what has the Word of the Prince of Peace been converted to a weapon? That to me is the great irony. The innocents and the minority are punished, the sins of the majority and the guilty are conveniently forgiven. How could a right-wing, literalist, bible-believing, homo-hating Christian not get a bang out of that, even without Ms. CarriePornia’s sex-video and the personal attention of The much-married Donald?
What did Jesus have to say about homosexuality? Somehow, this subject, so all-fired important to a portion of his followers, escaped his notice. Or perhaps it was left out of one of those many translations and interpretations and editions of the bible. Or maybe he just didn’t think it was particularly important. After all, there are only 7 passages in the entire bible that may possibly have something to do with what possibly might be homosexuality, and well over 250 telling heterosexuals what they will burn in hell forever for. He was quite specific about adultery and divorce for virtuous heterosexuals, but you can bet neither LMS nor EHB are going to start any political campaigns against offenders. You can bet it is fine with them for any adulterer to get married and divorced as often as they can afford it.
What did seem to get him going? Love god. Love one another. Keep your religion to yourself. Do as you would be done by. Judge not. Feed the poor. Heal the sick. Homo obsession? Just not there.
You and your kind– God, I love saying that– now pursue and attack, slander and annoy gay people with exactly the same moral certainty that you are doing and expressing what god wants with which your spiritual ancestors justified the burning of witches. How many innocent women died long and horrible deaths for being what everyone but Pat Robertson and some sub-Saharan savages know do not actually exist?
Martin Luther, praised for his courage and righteousness, thought that the Jews were devils. What a prince! 400 years later, another prince led a different Church, and apparently washed his hands of the innocents being led to the slaughter. O Pious, P(ont)ius Pilate! 1600 years of officially, biblically, and theologically sanctioned anti-Semitism eventually resulted in the murder of 6 million Jews, and hundred of thousands of queers and gypsies, almost as an afterthought.
Of course, Little Miss Sonshine will cry out that the people who committed those atrocities were ignorant or evil or sinful, or something. People Like Us don’t do Stuff Like That anymore, except to gay people. EHB finally has it right about who is going to be the object of god’s wrath and who is going to be the instrument of his might and anger. Not that either would murder us or anything like that, because you love the sinner and hate the sin, and Scalia-like, the Law will solve The Problem. But you are absolutely fine with other people hating us. You just get to follow along, and your mind remains spotless, your heart as vacant as your smile. Hence, few Christian voices raised in protest as gay people were slandered as threats to family, children, religion, marriage, freedom, and god, for daring–DARING– to ask for an end to the prejudice and to be treated as the law abiding, productive, tax-paying,contributing members of society that so many of us are, as the equal members of society that we should be.
Equal, in fact, to any two heterosexuals who met five minutes ago and have and $50 for a marriage license and enough alcohol in them to buy one. Equal to Night Stalker Richard Ramirez, who married a woman he had never met while in prison for his horrific crimes against women; ironically, this occurred on the very day Our Previous Fierce Advocate signed the Defense of Marriage Act after getting Monica’d-while-Marri’d in the Oval Orifice.
People Like Us don’t do Stuff Like That anymore? No, you still do exactly as you have always done, for exactly the same reasons, and with exactly the same results. You have always needed an out group to attack so that you can go all Onward Christian Soldiers on their asses. We’re just your current victims. Only the truly iggerunt and fearful believe in witches any more, and they are usually over-weight and dress poorly, in addition to failing to understand that Halloween is just an excuse to sell more sugar. And Jew-hating is no longer fashionable, and certainly not acceptable if it’s out loud, even among Baptists. It’s impolite and bad for business. After all, it was more than 30 years ago that F. Bailey Smith proclaimed that “God Almighty does not hear the prayer of a Jew.” You’ve tried attacking the Muslims, but they have all that oil and money and suicide bombers and atomic technology and everything. The Mormons used to be pretty good as victims, but they are white, they have pots of money and organization, and Elder Bob is just so cute in his white shirt and black badge bearing the inscription “Elder Bob.” on his muscular young chest. Who could resist that corn-fed smile?
These days, it’s just that homohatred plays and pays, and in a certain evangelical’s case, lays so much better. And so, despite all of your profound theological differences and disagreements on the nature of god and his message to the world, despite all the murders and misery and war those differences have caused, there is one thing you can agree on: get those dirty homos. And that is enough to bury every disagreement that has caused Christian to murder Christian to murder Jew to murder Muslim.
Jesus had nothing, not one word, to say about homosexuality, as understood in either his own day or in ours. He did say, and clearly, “Feed the poor.”
So here is my question to you two good Christians: how many children died of hunger in Darfur, in Iraq, in Zimbabwe, in Congo, in Bangladesh while you spent your resources blocking my access to civil marriage? How many children are suffering from horrible diseases because they have no medical care, in the favelas of Rio or the slums of Mexico City, because your money and energy is used to attack my family, without even the shabby excuse of a benefit to your own? What’s truly sad is that it doesn’t make the slightest bit of difference to you in either case, because ultimately, you don’t care about us or them.
How much pain, misery, and suffering do you endorse for others while you obsess over what makes MY dick hard?
Comment by Ben in Oakland — April 18, 2010 @ 1:45 pm
Uh-oh, William, you mentioned child molesters. Cue the age-old and thoroughly debunked “But homos are pedos!” myth in three… two…
Ben, that was long and thoroughly enjoyable. Bravo.
Comment by Makyui — April 18, 2010 @ 1:52 pm
Hi, William,
We agree with you that defining good and evil is a formidable task. And, like you, we don’t feel equal to it.
We do believe that God loves us all enough to define those terms Himself for our benefit. “All wrongdoing is sin”, “God is good”, and “woe to those who call good evil and evil good” are easy to understand.
We agree with you that religion can cause people to do bad things. We would include every religion in that category. Christianity can be a religion. Atheism also.
For us, however, Christianity is not a “religion”. It is a relationship that we have with Jesus Christ.
Don and Linda
Comment by Don and Linda Burris — April 18, 2010 @ 2:00 pm
We do care about you, Ben.
Comment by Don and Linda Burris — April 18, 2010 @ 2:02 pm
Kelly,
It sounds like you have passed judgment on the people in the Presbyterian and Lutheran churches?
Comment by Don and Linda Burris — April 18, 2010 @ 2:07 pm
No you don’t. you care about me only as long as I believe what you believe.
If i don’t buy that line, then i’m going to burn in hell forever. Not your fault. talk to god about it.
Please.
Here’s a very simple test. Gay marriage is on the ballot in your state. I want legal recognition for my 20 year marriage to my partner in order to protect our life and our assets from his scheming relatives. If the state does not recognize our marriage, I will not be eligible for his pension. if they get their way, I will be facing an old page of penury.
How will you vote?
Comment by Ben in Oakland — April 18, 2010 @ 2:10 pm
Ben,
We care about you no matter what you believe. We really love you even though we have not met you. Your sin does not change our love for you, but it does concern us for you. Sodomy is a dangerous practice.
As we mentioned earlier, we believe God’s Word, the Bible. He instituted marriage between a man and a woman, and that is why we could not vote for same-sex “marriages”.
Don and Linda
Comment by Don and Linda Burris — April 18, 2010 @ 2:15 pm
What a load of tripe.
Main Entry: re¬?li¬?gion
Pronunciation: \ri-Ààli-j…ôn\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back
Date: 13th century
1 a : the state of a religious [a nun in her 20th year of religion] b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
Guess what — Christianity falls under the category of “religion”. Trying to turn the accountability of your faith onto everyone else BUT your faith is dishonest, especially by lying about what a religion is.
The evils that are done in the name of religion are done EXACTLY for the very same reasons that you think your faith has absolute authority. God — not just any god, but YOUR brand of god — is absolute authority, simply because you assert that he is. Any evil, any pain, any oppression, any inhumanity can be justified simply by saying, “God said so.” Isn’t that convenient? What arrogance.
“God says so” is not convincing, especially since you can’t prove that God says so (How do you know? Maybe he says otherwise. Maybe there’s a nice, fat chunk of Hell set aside for people who oppress LGBT individuals that power-hungry oppressors don’t want people to know about). If you’re going to make an assertion of wrongdoing, you need to back it up with something a little more substantial than that.
Comment by Makyui — April 18, 2010 @ 2:17 pm
Sorry Linda. The Bible is fallible, written by imperfect men, though inspired, but by no means the literal Word of God. I can be inspired to write something about God but does that make it the literal Word of God because I was inspired to write it? NO! I was inspired to write but still bring with me my imperfections and my limited understanding as I write. I cannot claim that God literally spoke this!
As a Christian who is gay, I praise God everyday for the belief that he is still speaking and that I rely on the Holy Spirit for conviction and guidance. The Bible is not infallible. To me that would be nothing short of Bibliolatry! Raising the Bible to Christs’ rightful place! He has not closed the book on revealing himself to us! Sorry, the Bible is not the final authority! God’s Holy Spirit is! Alive and working in this world! Thank God I have not closed my mind nor stop listening to what God has to say to ME!
Keep it up Wayne! Expose the lies and the deception from those that demand that we worship their literal interpretation of scripture rather than God himself!
Ben -” It never ceases to amaze me as I watch the religionists enact and re-enact their homo-hatred, finding always some way to express their antipathy towards people they do not know, know nothing about, and who have done them no harm– well, I should say no DEMONSTRABLE harm, apart from offending them by existing. And of course, it is even more offensive when they must rationalize the damage they do to gay people as a show of faith and virtue. “Love the sinner and hate the sin” erases the fine and necessary line between hypocrisy and sarcasm, for as Rochefoucauld noted sarcastically, hypocrisy is the homage that vice pays to virtue.”
We do offend them by our very existence. It challenges their perfect and literal interpretation of Scripture. They cannot have that conflict in their lives so that is one of the reasons why they have ex-gay ministries to counter that. Their safe positions of literal interpretation of Scripture is more important to them than listening to the actual lives of the GLBT community. That is why there have been religious wars since the beginning of time.
Its the “I’m right, and your wrong” mentality.
Comment by Ken R — April 18, 2010 @ 2:20 pm
“Your sin does not change our love for you, but it does concern us for you. Sodomy is a dangerous practice.”
If you truly loved him, you wouldn’t be placing your arrogance– sorry, faith –over his wellbeing by implying that he’s shameful and dirty for no good reason, and spreading lies using derogatory language about what you presume his practices are. Fun fact: homosexuality isn’t all about The Buttsex. You don’t know what Ben’s sexual practices are, and it’s very rude to bring it up as you did, uninvited.
But you wouldn’t know that, would you? Because making an attempt to learn about the people you’re trying to reach, beyond some moldy old stereotypes spread around by bigots with a vested interest in keeping their privilege safe and sound, would take effort and might (gasp!) challenge your preconceptions.
Comment by Makyui — April 18, 2010 @ 2:29 pm
Yes, Makyui, I did mention child molesters. I mentioned them as an example of people whose behaviour, we would all agree, is evil. What was my reason for using them as an example? Well, it certainly WASN’T in order to compare child molesters to homosexuals (or whatever Christian fundamentalist like to call us). It’ because I regard homophobic abuse — whether or not attempts are made to justify it by quoting the Bible — as comparable to paedophilic abuse.
Both types of abuse are liable to have similar and very damaging effects on the lives of those who have been subjected to them. The perpetrators of both tell themselves, and try to persuade others, that what they’re doing isn’t “really” abuse. Consider the following:
(1) “I don’t think you ever, ever, forget. I don’t care what people say. I don’t care whether people have managed to suppress it so successfully that they never give it a second thought. It’ embedded in your psyche. You cannot get rid of it. I get reminded virtually every day. It’ always there.”
(2) “It took me a very, very long time to feel comfortable with my feelings of affection and sexual desire, and I think these problems are manifested in different victims in a myriad of different ways.”
(3) “I took to drinking too much and I took pretty well every drug except heroin. I felt so bad and worthless that I was prepared to do anything to deaden the pain. Several times I made plans to kill myself.”
(4) “At any stage from the age of seventeen onwards I could have become a heroin addict and not made it till I was twenty-five. That’ how bad I was feeling about being bad. Non-existence was definitely a choice I could have taken.”
(5) “What would be the point in telling people more — in recounting all the hours and days that you just sat there with your head in your hands thinking “I’m so useless’?”
(6) ” “It’ all right,’ he said. “Cry as much as you want. I understand where you’re coming from. It’ still with you isn’t it?’ I must have been carrying it around with me years after I thought it was forgotten and buried, but at last I’d talked to someone, and I’d been lucky enough to talk to someone who understood what it had done to me. “Always best to talk,’ he said. “No good keeping it locked up inside.’ ”
(7) “I went home and tried to kill myself. Only my mother found me in time, or I would now be dead.”
All of the above are adults describing how abuse impacted on their lives, sometimes years later. Some refer to paedophilic abuse, others to homophobic abuse. I challenge anyone to sort them correctly into their respective categories. (Answers on a postcard, please.) I have removed all verbal clues; any that appear to remain will probably be misleading.
Comment by William — April 18, 2010 @ 2:33 pm
Hi, Ken,
We can’t believe we are right and you are wrong. We are sinners just like you. Our salvation is not in our own righteousness but in Christ’s.
Instead, we believe that God is right and anyone who opposes Him is wrong.
So, you really don’t offend us. We don’t tell you God’s truth to satisfy a “religion”, but because God chooses to work through His people to reach the lost.
Yes, there is a Holy Spirit, His Spirit, but it is not just Any Spirit by which people might want to be swayed. The Holy Spirit reminds us of the teachings of the Bible. Anything else is heresy.
We assume you have read Romans 1.
Don and Linda
Comment by Don and Linda Burris — April 18, 2010 @ 2:41 pm
To commenters Don and Linda Burris, Edward, Dimitry (and possibly a few others),
All of you exhibit symptoms of having been over-indoctrinated, and under-educated.
Indoctrination involves instilling a limited sub-set of information intended to validate preconceived beliefs. All other information, reason, and logic are characterized as threatening and must be rejected. Independent thinking, analysis, and questioning are discouraged.
Education involves exposure to the broadest possible array of information. Independent thinking, analysis, synthesis, and questioning are not only encouraged, but are an integral part of the educational process.
If you could muster the courage to escape from your cave-like incestuous little world you would learn about another world brimming with fascinating information, discoveries, enlightenment, science, and possibilities. You could participate in the excitement of exploring lots of remaining unresolved mysteries. You would also learn how education has allowed increasing numbers of people to make significant progress in abandoning their fears, prejudices, and bigotry involving people who may be different from themselves.
To a great extent, people whose lives are formed and filtered through indoctrination are navigating through life by looking backwards to find their way forward. Educated people look backwards too, but they analyze/synthesize what they see, discard what proves false, and use it all as a springboard for making more progress and new discoveries about everything from insects to the entire universe. Doesn’t that seem much more rational than being indoctrinated to believe that all the answers we need are contained in one particular collection of writings from thousands of years ago?
Comment by Richard Rush — April 18, 2010 @ 2:43 pm
William, you’re absolutely right (I’m sorry if it seemed like I was accusing you of wrongdoing; I forget sometimes that my intentions aren’t always clear). What you’ve said there is why I’m so tired of that myth popping up everywhere — because it enables the perpetrators of these abuses by hiding them from scrutiny — and why the ex-gay ministries and people who strip the humanity from LGBT folks are so disgusting.
People DIE from this, and the people who don’t die are often changed forever in terrible ways. And folks like Don/Linda and Exodus and the Religious Right can sit back, all smug in their privilege, and claim that they’re doing good because they’re too damned selfish to see that they’re not.
Comment by Makyui — April 18, 2010 @ 2:49 pm
Hi, Richard,
Sorry, but God says our wisdom is but foolishness.
We are quite educated, we love science, and we love discussions, but we would never trade God’s truth for man’s delusions.
Don and Linda
Comment by Don and Linda Burris — April 18, 2010 @ 2:52 pm
“We can’t believe we are right and you are wrong. … Instead, we believe that God is right and anyone who opposes Him is wrong.”
And by “God” you mean “your opinion of God”, which means that, yes, you DO believe that you are right and we are wrong.
Comment by Makyui — April 18, 2010 @ 2:53 pm
Makyui,
Thanks for mentioning Exodus (Exodus International), another good work.
http://www.exodusinternational.org/
Don and Linda
Comment by Don and Linda Burris — April 18, 2010 @ 2:53 pm
Wow, you’re not listening to a word that anyone says, are you?
Disgusting. You’re not hear to learn, or engage, or discuss. You’re just here to spread bullshit and kill people.
Yes, by promoting people like Exodus as “good work” you ARE killing people.
GTFO.
Comment by Makyui — April 18, 2010 @ 2:55 pm
Makyui,
Thanks for asking.
We are talking about the God of the Bible, who came in the flesh as Jesus Christ, the God-man, who is our Creator and our Redeemer, who counsels us as the Holy Spirit, the one and only God.
Don and Linda
Comment by Don and Linda Burris — April 18, 2010 @ 2:55 pm
“We are talking about the God of the Bible, who came in the flesh as Jesus Christ, the God-man, who is our Creator and our Redeemer, who counsels us as the Holy Spirit, the one and only God.”
Prove it.
Comment by Makyui — April 18, 2010 @ 2:59 pm
We care for you all and would prefer a discussion in person, but we are thankful that the internet has allowed us this opportunity to dialogue with you.
We must go now, due to other responsibilities.
We would like to leave with you a portion of God’s word, for His Word is living and active,sharper than any double-edged sword…it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
“For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”
We hope that many of you here will trust Christ and be part of the “us” mentioned in that verse, rather than continue in your foolishness. Again, we ourselves are only sinners saved by grace; we have no condemnation for you, but we are holding out the word of truth for those who will believe.
Sincerely in Christ,
Don and Linda
Comment by Don and Linda Burris — April 18, 2010 @ 3:03 pm
Sorry, Makyui,
We saw your last post as we posted ours.
God needs no proof. He is the great I AM.
Talk to Him. Ask Him to forgive you. He will hear that prayer and show you His love.
Comment by Don and Linda Burris — April 18, 2010 @ 3:06 pm
Makyui,
Good one.
Will
Comment by Will — April 18, 2010 @ 3:12 pm
when you defend liars in the name of God, you have no room to talk to us.
“How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.” – Luke 6:42
Comment by a. mcewen — April 18, 2010 @ 3:13 pm
Been there, done that. And I’m not going to bother pointing out how little your comment makes sense, because it’s pretty clear that sense is not in your dictionary, anyway.
You’re not in the business of knowing truth. Just pushing people around. Maybe someday you’ll realize what destruction you and your ilk are perpetuating, but I’m not going to hold my breath.
Comment by Makyui — April 18, 2010 @ 3:13 pm
Don and Linda: thank you so much for proving my point.You don’t love me. In fact, you don’t know anything about me, or my life, or sodomy. All you know is something you believe you understand about something that may possibly be about homosexuality in a book written by desert nomads 2000 years, a couple of continents, and a world-view away. What you love is the image you have of yourselves as savers of benighted souls, as God’s especially chosen messengers to those unwashed heathens.
Honey: that’s not love, its narcissism. And you are too spiritually arrogant– the very essence of narcissism– to get it.
“Sodomy is a dangerous practice.” Well, you’re wrong about that. Funny, I’ve been a practicing sodomite for 40 years. I have no diseases, I have a happy successful life, am well thought of by family and community and at 60 years old, I weight 10 pounds more than I did in college, I can outrun and outlast most men 20 years younger.
So what’s the danger? Probably only to your belief in your Christian and heterosexual superiority. And to the continued oppression of those pour souls who have given into the belief that because they are gay, they are on god’s special shitlist. (It’s just yours, but it sounds better if you slander god with it). Just how many kids have to kill themselves, or be killed by carefully taught little thugs, like Lawrence King or Matthew Shepard, or lead the life of some gobsmacked Ted haggard, before you finally give up on your insistence that you can do whatever you like to us because God is on your side. Obviously, you didn’t read the part about the witches, did you?
And this gem: “He instituted marriage between a man and a woman, and that is why we could not vote for same-sex “marriages”. Those “quotes’ are just dripping with condescension and contempt.
So you are quite willing to deny me civil marriage (BTW, I was married by a Christian minister who obviously disagrees with you) and see to it that everything my husband I have been working for our whole lives together is taken away from me, so that I can end my old age living out on the street. Sounds like love to me.
And for what reason? So that you can tell me that you, I mean, god was right and I was an unrepentant sinner. That very same god that tells YOU “Judge Not!” Of course, you know for a certainty that it is not you doing the judging, but god. Your hands are clean. If you expect me to buy that, I have a Pontius Pilate for sale cheap.
And this makes YOU a moral person? For your version of god, of course! Did he not harden the heart of Pharaoh as he send 10 progressively horrible plagues upon the innocents of Egypt? He could have just told the Egyptians about the Emancipation Proclamation, but he needed to punish. You can just ignore everything the God you claim to follow told you about minding your own business and focus on whatever it is you think about when you are minding mine. You can do my life any amount of damage you please and rest comfortably in the your womb of self-righteousness, knowing that god agrees with you.
You, too need to punish, no matter what you believe to be true about your goodness. your god tells you that you are no better than me and you should not be judging me, but you don’t listen to him about that any more than you do about loving people. Love for you is a platitude that makes you feel better about yourselves.
Comment by Ben in Oakland — April 18, 2010 @ 3:17 pm
Hi Don, Hi Linda,
Thank you for the laughs. It made my day.
Will
Comment by Will — April 18, 2010 @ 3:17 pm
Don and Linda – “We assume you have read Romans 1.”
Yes, in the context and the in the time it was written. Paul is referring to those that worship created things made by man’s hands rather than the true God himself. And in their idolatry worshiped sex (and among other things) as part of their worship to their man-made god’s. It had nothing to do with people’s innate sexual attraction and their desire to have relationships.
And if you continue to Roman’s 2:
1.”You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2.Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3.So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4.Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance?”
Paul was reminding the Jewish Christians that they had no right to pass judgment on others because they themselves were sinners in much need of a Savior. That they were no better than the pagans who worshiped man-made idols.
Don and Linda – “The Holy Spirit reminds us of the teachings of the Bible. Anything else is heresy.”
You just proved my point. That your Bible interpretation is your FINAL authority REGARDLESS if God, through the Holy Spirit, maybe trying to convict you that you can be wrong about the GLBT community.
Reminds me of the time when African Americans and women were not held in high esteem according to Scripture and according to those that believed God gave man the right to own slaves and make women subjected to their husbands. Yet that has changed through time. Was God wrong all this time? Or was it man? It seems to me man was too stubborn to rethink his position because he/she was too comfortable in their LITERAL interpretation of Scripture.
This is no different with the GLBT.
Comment by Ken R — April 18, 2010 @ 3:17 pm
Thank you, Makyui. I’m glad that you’ve understood my point so well.
I completely agree with you when you say that “the ex-gay ministries and people who strip the humanity from LGBT folks” are disgusting. In fact I think that’ putting it mildly. I try to be tolerant of other people’ beliefs, no matter how sharply I may disagree with them, but those who peddle the “ex-gay” fraud or who try to prevent gays from forming appropriate same-sex relationships, no matter how sincere they may be in their beliefs, do as much damage in their own way as child molesters do in theirs. That’ why I can’t take an indulgent view of them.
Comment by William — April 18, 2010 @ 3:22 pm
Isn’t it funny when Christians like ‘Don and Linda’ claim to be so humble, yet make msuch fantastically arrogant claims?!
Don and Linda not only claim to know a mind is at work in the universe (everything we’ve discovered since Copernicus tells us otherwise). Don and Linda claim to be in personal contact with that mind, so intimately, they know exactly what it thinks about your sleeping habits, and in which position you should sleep in.
So Don and Linda, where do you get this information from? What are your sources for this infpormation? Do you get direct revelations? As Carl Sagan once said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
I’m not answerable to any tooth fairy dictator in the sky – I’m delighted that there no such being exists. If some one says in the street, ‘I want to ask you some questions’, my response is: ‘on whose authority? no thanks, I’m in a hurry’. And that’s what I would say to you and your god.
Anyway, Don and Linda – I’m coming to bring YOU the good news. You talk like a slave – you can break these mind manacles here and now. Think about it – do you have a reason to believe in the Judeo-Christian god, or is it because you were taught to believe this as a child? Isn’t it funny how all believers seem to have the same faith as their parents and grand parents? Don’t you think you would have believed in Thor and Wotan if you lived in 4th Century Denmark, or Brahman if you lived in what is now India? Or Allah if you lived in Cairo? You can’t all be right.
It’s easy to walk away from all this. Bear in mind, you, like me, are atheist about thousands of gods (and every Christian god, too, because there are as many different gods as there have been people: after all, you, from Fred Phelps to Unitarians, always talk of a ‘personal’ god) All you have to do, is go one tiny, insignificant step further.
Thankfully, there is no archaeological evidence whatsoever for any event in the books attributed to the mythical character of ‘Moses’. No evidence for the divinity of any preacher in Palestine.
Remember, the Bible is a simple attempt by primitive, ignorant goat-herding peasants and a vulnerable tribe to explain the world around them. We have better information now, We know what causes storms, shooting stars, disease, famine. We know we evolved from single celled organisms about 3.6 billion years ago, and we know the universe to be about 14.7 billion years old.
We also know there are a lot of cranks in the country who think the Bible is literally true and who believe the Earth to be less than 10,000 years old. These people need to be laughed at, for sure, but also bombed – with books of course, like Richard Dawkins’s ‘Selfish Gene’, ‘Blind Watchmaker’, ‘Evolution: the Greatest show on Earth’, and of course, ‘The God Delusion’. Perhaps we need to hold Darwin Outreach events outside Liberty “University” and Saddleback Church and other mega-pest houses.
Come on Don and Linda, there is a whole world of discovery waiting for you. I won’t tell you the sky is blue, but I invite you to look up for once in your lives and see the world, human nature and the cosmos as it actually is, not as you want it to be: critical thinking cannot be done in the kneeling position.
Comment by Darwin's Bulldog — April 18, 2010 @ 3:46 pm
A. McEwen, Ben, Ken: I can’t express how full of awesome those comments are.
William: I agree, totally. It’s something else entirely when genuine harm is being put on another human being, and when lies are being used to justify it. Not just unsubstantiated personal belief (which I’m not going to pretend doesn’t bother me on its own), but actual, verifiable lies.
Or, at least, ignorance and misinformation, which might be in the same category anyway.
Comment by Makyui — April 18, 2010 @ 3:50 pm
You’re welcome, Makyui. Unfortunately, don and Linda have already dismissed us and left the field of battle. They will have no more time to to waste on poeple who are so clearly going to hell. There are other osuls to save, other eternal brownie points to earn.
Comment by Ben in Oakland — April 18, 2010 @ 3:58 pm
BUT in the long run, who cares what they think. As long as we can point out their lies to their faces.
Comment by a. mcewen — April 18, 2010 @ 4:42 pm
True that. You can’t reach a bigot, but you can reach the people who might otherwise fall for their tricks.
Comment by Makyui — April 18, 2010 @ 4:58 pm
Linda said “I used to be an atheist. I was involved in a cult (Scientology) as well as drugs and immorality, so I know that there really are monsters out there!”.
Drugs are a victimless crime, atheism hurts no one – if such people are monsters to you Linda you are severely deluded.
Linda said “it is not God who is the monster…Though we all deserve the punishment of an eternal hell”.
Justice demands that the punishment fit the crime human crimes are finite, no finite crime deserves an infinite punishment. Your god punishes people eternally for the thought crime of not believing that which he allows to be doubtful, the punishment could not be more out of proportion to such a crime, the god you envision could not be any more monstrous than this.
Linda said “only those who reject God’ free gift of salvation will reside [in eternal hell]“.
A “gift” one attempts to co-erce you into accepting with threats of eternal torture is no gift at all, its a demand to acquiesce.
Linda, you’re so messed up you see those who harm no one as monsters and yet deny the monstrosity of a being who would eternally torture innocents like gays and non-believers. Evil has taken over your soul Linda and corrupted all normal sense of right and wrong which should naturally reside in you. ‚ÄÇ
Comment by Priya Lynn — April 18, 2010 @ 5:04 pm
All right. Sorry, Don and Linda, I was busy living my gay life this afternoon, so I haven’t had time to respond to your crap. I’ll try to wade through real fast:
You said:
“To Evan: We disagree that homosexuality is normal, healthy or inherent.”
Your beliefs are irrelevant. That homosexuality is normal, healthy and inherent are facts, not debatable. You probably believe the earth was created 6000 years ago too, and I’m not willing to “debate” that with you either, because it’s simply a joke. I’m sorry, but you can cling to ignorance all you want. That’s your freedom as an American. As someone close to me who fights in our military has said many times, “I fight for your freedom to be as pig ignorant as you want.” But you’re not going to be treated like your ideas are equally valid here, because we have proven many times that they aren’t.
Linda, you said:
“Thanks, Dimitry, for posting that article by Americans for Truth About Homosexuality.”
Nice. What other SPLC-certified hate groups do you support, Linda? Neo-nazis? The Klan?
Linda, you said:
“We would include every religion in that category. Christianity can be a religion. Atheism also.”
No. The idea that atheism is a religion is something that fundamentalists tell themselves so that they don’t have to confront the fact that people don’t need religion, and that religion indeed can be a hindrance to leading a loving, productive life of INTEGRITY.
Linda, you said:
“For us, however, Christianity is not a “religion”. It is a relationship that we have with Jesus Christ.”
Bull
shit.
Linda, you said:
“We do care about you, Ben.”
Bull
shit
Like a pedophile cares about children, you do.
Linda, you said:
“We care about you no matter what you believe. We really love you even though we have not met you. Your sin does not change our love for you, but it does concern us for you.”
Bull
shit
Like a plantation owner cared about his favorite slavewoman.
“Sodomy is a dangerous practice.”
No, lady, first of all? “Sodomy” is a misnomer, because if you had ever studied the Bible you so casually hurl at people, you’d know that Sodom is mentioned and explained approximately 15 times in the Bible, and every time it is explicitly explained that the sin of Sodom was inhospitality. You can read this yourself. I shouldn’t have to baby you or teach you about your own religion. That said, there is nothing inherently unsafe about two people of any gender combination expressing their love for each other in sex. I know that you come from a worldview that accords intense guilt and slut shaming to any sexual act that is enjoyed, but that your problem, not ours.
Richard Rush, you said:
“All of you exhibit symptoms of having been over-indoctrinated, and under-educated.”
To say the frickin’ least. VERY undereducated.
Linda Burris, you said:
“Hi, Richard,
Sorry, but God says our wisdom is but foolishness.”
You have no proof that your version of god (more like a revenge fantasy against anyone who threatens your worldview) said anything, nor that this “god” exists in the first place. Therefore, you are way over the line in trying to impose your ignorant ass beliefs on other people, especially since you obviously prey on the wounded or weak.
And really, Linda…in your worldview, you’re not supposed to be teaching men in the first place, so if you were consistent, you’d STFU, because 70% of the people commenting here are men. Don’t like it? Take it up with Paul, who wrote the verses you use to shit on gay people.
Linda, you said:
“We are talking about the God of the Bible, who came in the flesh as Jesus Christ, the God-man, who is our Creator and our Redeemer, who counsels us as the Holy Spirit, the one and only God.”
Prove it, ladykins.
Linda, you said:
“We care for you all and would prefer a discussion in person, but we are thankful that the internet has allowed us this opportunity to dialogue with you.
We must go now, due to other responsibilities.”
OH, seriously, the pleasure has been all ours. What, do you have to go stand in front of an abortion clinic and verbally abuse poor women? Or maybe collect money to send Bibles to China? Get a life.
Linda, you said:
“God needs no proof. He is the great I AM.”
That is the absolute laziest, dumbest thing I have ever heard in my life. Maybe that works in the sticks of Georgia, but not in the grown-up world, darling.
And again: teaching men? Really? You’re not supposed to be, according to your religion.
Comment by Evan Hurst — April 18, 2010 @ 5:31 pm
Oh, and Darwin’s Bulldog, I heart you.
Would buy you a drink for that comment.
;-)
Comment by Evan Hurst — April 18, 2010 @ 5:39 pm
Don and Linda, in your arrogance, you ignored my questions. And no, I did not pass judgement on the Presbyterians or Lutherans…did you even read what I said?
I pointed you that these denominations are not run by bigots, are welcoming and loving of everyone. Only a conservative could call that passing judgement. They have HIGH standards, and a way better understanding of God and true Christian love than any one who still has your ideas about Gay people do.
Your version of Christianity (just one version, not THE one…certainly not the best one) is no longer needed
Have some class. At least fake it.
REREAD question 40 and answer it…and take the advice…get a life, stop insulting us, embarassing yourself…and looking like fundamentalist to boot (not to be cruel)
NOTE I would be reccomend BEING POLITE AND HUMBLE IN YOUR RESPONSE…everything that could be found inappropriate/anti gay affirming will result in a gift being made in your honor to the local GLBT youth center. Of course…if you decide not to…I have been considering making a donation to them anyway…and your impolite unwillingness to even address many of the posters here has lead me to do so anyway…..the amount is now largely up to you
Comment by Kelly — April 18, 2010 @ 6:20 pm
Very well Evan, but beware, I am quite fussy, it could get expensive
http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/207/645 :-)
Crucially in any argument like this, don’t let anyone go past saying ‘We believe the Bible to be true’. If you ask these simple people, how they know it to be true in a typical line of enquiry, you can take their arguments to their natural dead-ends. The onus is on them to explain themselves, and to make history here on this website to show any evidence for their miraculous claims. Otherwise, they must expect ridicule, as promised in Matt 10:22.
As Thomas Paine reminds us about miraculous claims (and everyone should read the Age of Reason): “If we are to suppose a miracle to be something so entirely out of the course of what is called nature, that she must go out of that course to accomplish it, and we see an account given of such a miracle by the person who said he saw it, it raises a question in the mind very easily decided, which is,–Is it more probable that nature should go out of her course, or that a man should tell a lie? We have never seen, in our time, nature go out of her course; but we have good reason to believe that millions of lies have been told in the same time; it is, therefore, at least millions to one, that the reporter of a miracle tells a lie.”
Comment by Darwin's Bulldog — April 18, 2010 @ 6:29 pm
So let me see if I have this straight. you used to belong to an organizaton which promulgated a rather improbable cosmological story, which you accepted at full face value. This group also defined you as being particularly broken in some way, and that they had the means, via their cosmological story, to fix you– at a price. In return for the fixing, they demand your allegiance, your blind adherence to what they have told you and what their leadrers demand, and your cash.
And how is this different?
more later.
Comment by Ben in Oakland — April 18, 2010 @ 7:39 pm
It’s not different, Ben. Some people think that because something is ancient that it makes more sense, but that’s a crap argument. There are religions more ancient than Judaism and Christianity, and I doubt that Linda would find them plausible. She’d be just as skeptical as we are of all of them. This is part of why I find it absolutely hilarious when Evangelicals talk about how “weird” Mormons are, or how “weird” Muslims are. I refuse to play along with them, because it reinforces their idea that their own religion is somehow “normal.” Uh, no.
Comment by Evan Hurst — April 18, 2010 @ 8:38 pm
Evan, i lacked the means to emphasize the word “this”. That was my point. The woman has fallen for yet another organization that promises salvation. What did she do before scientology?
Unfortunately, I don’t actually feel like writng more today. Maybe tomorrow.
Comment by Ben in Oakland — April 18, 2010 @ 11:36 pm
Yeah, I know, I was just answering your rhetorical question. ;-)
Comment by Evan Hurst — April 19, 2010 @ 2:09 am
hi Wayne,
unfortunately, “truth doesn’t win out” on your blog, as you won’t admit that your slanderous ID of “Christian right-wing extremists” just wasn’t evident when you were “discovered” at Awakening 2010. To the contrary, you were treated with respect and with kindness, unlike your fellow activists, who in the aftermath of Prop 8, have destroyed the property of innocent citizens, villified families in front of their homes and businesses to the glee of liberal media, and also aspire to attend public debates so they/you can shout down scheduled speakers. Pretty sad that you can’t admit that your labeling of “we the enemy” is altogether wrong and improper. Why not change your blog to “lieswinout”??
Comment by Cerebral2020 — April 19, 2010 @ 9:22 am
“unlike your fellow activists, who in the aftermath of Prop 8, have destroyed the property of innocent citizens, villified families in front of their homes and businesses to the glee of liberal media”
Oh, standard Christian persecution card. Most of any of the “violent” events were isolated incidents that were not part of any large movement. The “liberal media” is almost non-existent. The media is always about making profit. If the people are vilified, it is because they have shown great contempt fo the lives of others- people like Dobson- and should be treated as such. Get off that horse of yours. It’s not as high as you think
Comment by Gyeong Hwa Pak — April 19, 2010 @ 10:46 am
Let’s see: a few yard signs destroyed out of thousands of peaceful dmeonstrations nationwide
or…
being called a threat to family, children, freedom, religion, marriage, and country.
Comment by Ben in Oakland — April 19, 2010 @ 11:07 am
Exactly. And being called that repeatedly.
Fundamentalist Christians can bitch and moan all they want, but the LGBT community is still the one with a bodycount at least partially inspired by Fundamentalist Christian teachings. The bodycount of fundamentalists hurt, maimed or killed because they hate gay people? Still zero.
Now where’s Don & Linda? They were such good chew toys.
Comment by Evan Hurst — April 19, 2010 @ 11:32 am
Don and Linda couldn’t stad the heat, so they have moved to greener pastures where no one will stand up totheir nonsense.
Comment by Ben in Oakland — April 19, 2010 @ 11:42 am
[...] Wins Out’s Wayne Besen provides an inside look at the Freedom Federation’s ” Awakening” conference, while Liberty [...]
Pingback by Right Wing Round-Up #4 « The Fifth Column — April 19, 2010 @ 10:40 pm
[...] I noted in a report on The Awakening conference in Lynchburg, The Call’s Lou Engle floated the idea at a seminar [...]
Pingback by Truth Wins Out - Dr. Throckmorton: The Call Uganda Plans Large Rally That Could Revive Anti-Homosexuality Bill — April 20, 2010 @ 12:17 pm
to Cerebral2020 from a heterosexual woman married to the same man for 15 years.
You are confusing kindness with that sweet souther version of ice tea nice. The kind that says it’s so good to see you while pulling the knife drawer a bit closer.
It would not be good politics for anyone to be anything but “nice” especially knowing there actions would be made public to more than the “4″ people who attended the session.
I attended the main event and wanted to throw up!
I had given Liberty University the benefit of doubt till I saw it for myself first hand.
W-Keep Blogging and as a woman who came here for work from England not knowing anything about Lynchburg I am so jealous you get to go back to New York!
“I have no fear that the result of our experiment will be that men may be trusted to govern themselves without a master.”-Thomas Jefferson
Comment by Tanya Rollins — April 20, 2010 @ 5:17 pm
gerbils? wouldn’t hamsters be cheaper?
Comment by ;-D — April 24, 2010 @ 5:27 am