This is an interesting interview. Try not to cringe in the second section when, for some unknown reason (CNN, y’all really are batting a thousand, you know), King’s producers thought it would be a good idea to bring on a bigoted pastor to sit and talk about how sorry he feels for Jennifer. Props to Jennifer, though, for holding her tongue all the way through his entire ignorant, concern trolling tirade. Of course, there’s a hilarious moment at around 5:35 when Larry asks the pastor whether he made a “choice” to be a heterosexual, and he responds “I did!”
For the record: Pastor Bob Botsford of Horizon Christian Fellowship of San Diego could just as easily have been super gay, had that been what he wanted, and it wasn’t, so shut up.
In fairness, Larry mops the floor with the idiot pastor. So does Jen. So maybe they only brought him on for laughs.
In this segment, for some reason I cannot possibly put my finger on, they invite Ted Haggard on to give his perspective.
LOL, yes Makyui, I must try to remember that one in the future.
I think everyone is completely missing the point. If Jennifer Knapp was truly a believer in Christ before she became a lesbian, any behavior she engages in won’t affect her acceptance into heaven just as nothing she ever did secured her acceptance into heaven, aside from believing that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, that He died and rose from the grave and that He is alive in heaven preparing a place for those who believe. Christianity is about having a relationship with Jesus Christ, not earning your way into heaven by being “good” or following all the rules.
The issue is not can you be gay and Christian. Of course you can, just like you can be an alcoholic and a Christian, or an obese Christian, or a Christian who smokes, or a promiscuous heterosexual Christian. The Bible clearly lists homosexuality as a sin, along with a variety of other self-destructive, unhealthy life style choices. It is not a sin because it is personally offensive to conservatives, it is a sin because it can lead to a broad range of social, physical,and spiritual problems. Anything that is a sin, is a sin because it is harmful to a person in some way, either to yourself or to those around you. God is a God of love who desires a relationship with his people so, in His wisdom He made known to us i the Bible those things that are harmful to ourselves or those whom we love, that we would know what to avoid.
To speak out against homosexuality (or obesity, or drug or alcohol or tobacco abuse, or violence)is an act of love, not hate. If I didn’t care about someone, I wouldn’t care what type of behaviors they engaged in, or what consequences they faced as a result of them. The pastor cared for Jennifer so he spoke out against her choice to live a homosexual lifestyle. It isn’t to say his own personal sin is any better or more acceptable than hers, the difference is that he repents of his sin daily, rather than justifying it or making excuses.
My personal struggle is with overeating. If I did not daily pray for God to give me strength to exert self-control and go against my natural urges and tendencies, I would possibly be living with type II diabetes, high cholesterol, high blood pressure, public ridicule, the inability to care for my family properly, etc. My natural self wants to eat junk food all day and be lazy, but that isn’t good for me or my family, so I am being true to myself by denying my natural urge and doing what is best for my own personal health and for my family. I am also living in obedience to God, which leads to a life of blessing, rather than the negative consequences for disobedience. I have comfort and strength to get through trials and hard times in life, because I am living inside the will of God and have a personal relationship with the Creator of the world.
I’m afraid Jennifer, and any other Christian who chooses to live a lifestyle which the Bible clearly states is wrong, will suffer the negative consequences of those choices. So, yes, she can still go to heaven, assuming she truly is a believer, but she will not live a blessed life (regardless of how it may look to the outside eye) if she is living a life of willful disobedience. She will be held accountable for any people she leads astray because of that disobedience, as well.
God uses sinful people (we all fit into that category) to do great things for His glory everyday, Jennifer Knapp is no exception. I pray that God will draw her out of her self-destructive lifestyle and restore her to healthy relationship with Him. I pray God’s richest blessings on all who take the time and open up their hearts and minds enough to read this.
You’re very condescending, Lisa, and you’re wrong.
Especially about this:
“but she will not live a blessed life (regardless of how it may look to the outside eye)”
Fundamentalists such as yourself can b***h and moan all you want and try to deny the reality that millions of gays and lesbians DO live blessed lives. I live a blessed life.
This is why I don’t discuss things in terms of your religious beliefs: this is a secular state. Jennifer’s religion and experience thereof is not your business. And you can’t hold up a shred of proof for anything you say. And no, an old book of myths doesn’t count as “proof.”
Lisa wrote, “I pray that God will draw her [Jennifer] out of her self-destructive lifestyle and restore her to healthy relationship with Him.”
I think God already answered your prayer: Jennifer was drawn out of the self-destructive lifestyle of hiding her homosexuality. She now has a healthier relationship with her God, and is receiving the blessings she deserves.
Lisa, like most Super Christians you are a compulsive busybody. Mind your own business and stop bullying others just because they don’t have the same delusional thoughts dancing in their heads that you do.
“The Bible clearly lists homosexuality as a sin, along with a variety of other self-destructive, unhealthy life style choices.”
And there lies the gist of your ignorance, Jennifer. I have no problems with people who feel that homosexuality is a sin on a Biblical basis. I do not prescribe to that opinion but we all must learn to co-exist.
You have bought into the religious right lie that homosexuality is a “self-destructive, unhealthy lifestyle.” No doubt this opinion of yours is fueled by the phony studies created by religious right figures such as George Rekers.
I’ll make one more comment, then I won’t further express my religious views on an obviously non-religious site, although it is public domain, and I appreciate the ability to voice my opinion and to see what others think, as well. I realize there are Christian websites I could say all this on, but that would be preaching to the choir, right? I am not pushing my religious beliefs on others, merely stating what they are and offering them as a choice, not because they are mine, that’s irrelevant, but because they are based on what I believe to be the truth of the Scriptures.
You’re absolutely right, that if you don’t believe the Bible is true and all that it says about God and how He created us and wants us to live, people can quote scripture all day long and it won’t mean a thing to you. I place my faith in the Bible, in the men who wrote it under the inspiration of God, and that He preserved the words He wanted us to read through all the years, regardless of interpretation and controversy. Others place the same type of faith in scientists and on their research, their studies and experiments that they have performed, the theories they have presented. We all say “I’m right or else I wouldn’t believe this way.”
The thing is, truth is truth, regardless of what you or I believe. I don’t say, “Live this way, because i say so, or because you are offensive to me.” I have just presented what I believe to be the truth of the Scriptures. I have personally lived a blessed life by following the teachings of the Bible and the God that is revealed in it’s pages, and wish that everyone could be so blessed.
I’m not griping about how anyone chooses to live their life, it’s their choice, and it doesn’t affect me personally at all. All I know is my personal experience.
I don’t drink or smoke or do drugs. I’ve never had sex with anyone but my husband & he’s never been with anyone else. I try to eat healthy and exercise regularly. These things don’t make me a good person, they just make me healthy. I will never have to worry about contracting an STD or certain cancers, or other various lifestyle related diseases (obviously some things are not in my control, but you know what I mean).
I just don’t believe in taking unnecessary risks. If I’m wrong about the Bible, what have I lost? I’ll have lived a great life. If I’m right, eternity in Heaven will be my reward. What if you’re wrong? What will you have lost? Is it really worth the risk?
I am honestly not judging, or saying I’m better than anyone or that anyone has to agree with me. I don’t really expect to convert anyone, I am just a conservative Christian presenting the truth of the Scriptures, which is all Christ asks of me. I am boldly standing up for my beliefs, just as you are standing up for yours, and I admire and respect you for doing so. I do not spread a message of hate or violence any more than you do. May God Bless!
Lisa,
Pascal’s wager won’t work here.
So bats are birds, then, Lisa?
Gee, if you’re going to talk risks, then you’d better hope that your god is the right one, since there are plethoras of other choices out there, and a lot of them have horrible punishments waiting for nonbelievers in the afterlife, doncha know. Your chances are pretty slim. Even so, I wonder what God would think if he found out that his followers are just hedging their bets. Not very sincere, is it?
You think there’s nothing to lose if you’re right? You’re incredibly short-sighted.
“…she will not live a blessed life (regardless of how it may look to the outside eye) if she is living a life of willful disobedience.”
Why not? Because bigots might torment her for being gay? There’s no downside to being gay, if we take the bigotry away. You’re comparing homosexuality with things that have irrefutably been shown to cause harm, even though homosexuality does not inherently cause harm. The “social problems” are a result of ignorance and bigotry–you might as well say being black causes social problems because of racism. And driving cars can lead to physical problems, too. Walking on the sidewalk can lead to physical problems. These must be sins, too, eh? “Spiritual problems”, on the other hand, is just meaningless and based on no evidence. I could say that petting cats causes spiritual harm, and you wouldn’t be able to falsify that claim.
And speaking of evidence:
“Others place the same type of faith in scientists and on their research, their studies and experiments that they have performed, the theories they have presented.”
You misunderstand the word “faith”, completely. Faith is believing in something without evidence. The theories of scientists are based on evidence. It’s exactly opposite of the faith you claim.
…If you’re wrong, sorry. Unfortunate typo.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence Lisa Barber. You claim to know of a mind at work in the universe, you claim to know who that mind is, you claim to be so intimate with this being’s opinion about such trivial matters, like who we should go to be with, and you claim to know what his plan is for everyone else. Isn’t it amazing when Christians, who claim to be som humble, make the most arrogant claims?
How do you know this information, Lisa Barber? What are your sources? How do you know a book, is inspired any anyone other than the simple, ignorant Palestinian peasants who wrote it and edited it?
As you said, “I place my faith in the Bible, in the men who wrote it under the inspiration of God, and that He preserved the words He wanted us to read through all the years, regardless of interpretation and controversy.” These are all unprovable claims. It’s your job to provide the slightest piece of evidence.
You show your ignorance of science beautifully here: “Others place the same type of faith in scientists and on their research, their studies and experiments that they have performed, the theories they have presented. We all say “I’m right or else I wouldn’t believe this way.”
Science is a method of finding out the truth. Science works, its laws and theories make predictions that are testable and can be disproved if enough evidence were available. That’s the point: science is based on facts and evidence. It’s not faith. Airplanes and space shuttles obey these testable laws and they fly. Broomsticks and magic carpets don’t and they can’t. If you think scientific laws are based on faith then feel free to test them by jumping out of a 10th floor window.
Next time a hurricane is expected in Louisiana, what will you put your faith in: satellite weather predictions? or will you pray and clutch on to a cross and drown in the bedroom, as so many did in New Orleans?
One point we agree on: “Truth is truth, regardless of what you or I believe.”
Indeed – like the fact that there is not a shred of evidence for any event in the books attributed to the mythical character of ‘Moses’; or the fact that we share a common ancestor with our nearest relatives, the chimpanzee; or better still: successful, thriving, integrated, loving, stable same sex couples with their children, being good parents and being accepted and contributing to society – regardless of the superstition and nonsense preached in your church.
It’s all about the methods you use to get to the truth that count. Do you have a reason to believe what you believe? Or do you believe all this because you were indoctrinated with fear of hell as a child, when you were too young to think for yourself properly?
What “Lisa Barber” is pretty much saying: “It’s not my job to judge you, but if you do this, you’re going to hell”
All I can say is, “WOW! You’re not getting anywhere with your semantics”
Since I was gravely misquoted and words were put in my mouth, I feel compelled to respond once more. I never said being a homosexual would cause someone to “go to hell.” On the contrary, I said absolutely yes, a homosexual could be a Christian, and therefore go to heaven.
This discussion began over the debate of whether or not a homosexual could also be a Christian and therefore go to heaven, according to Christian beliefs, after Jennifer Knapp, a professed Christian who still calls herself a person of faith, “came out” to the Christian community who followed her music. As a Christian I am qualified to comment on Christian doctrine. Regardless of what you believe about God, I am merely stating what Christians believe to be the truth of the Holy Scriptures regarding this subject.
Christianity is based on faith in Jesus Christ and a personal relationship with Him, not on a person’s ability to “follow the rules”. God did however give us the Bible as a guide to help us know what was healthy and helpful behaviors, and those that are not are considered sin because of their harmful nature. It is not about pointless rules for the sake of having rules, or oppressing people who do not believe in the Bible. It is about teaching people to take care of themselves and to take care of each other, as we are all God’s creation and His desire is for us to live blessed, healthy lives that glorify Him.
While I’m not a scientist, I am an intelligent person and I have done my research (and not just on conservative websites, mind you – obviously or I wouldn’t have been on this site in the first place). One would be delusional to state that any sexual activity outside of a monogamous heterosexual relationship did not pose a variety of health risks. Even with all the “protection” available there is no other truly “safe sex”. This is proven scientific fact that has nothing to do with anyone’s personal religious beliefs, however, it is very interesting that this is the type of intimate marital relationship that God instituted from the beginning in the Bible, and is promoted all throughout it.
Sure, polygamy was in the Bible as well as homosexuality and a variety of other forms of sexual sin, and all were punished, even when it was people who were great Bible heroes who did great things for God, such as David and Solomon and Abraham. God uses sinful people every day, that’s all He has to choose from as we all fit in to this category, with no exceptions.
All are given the opportunity to repent and follow the teachings of Christ. No sin is greater than any other sin and singularly responsible for keeping someone out of heaven, just as no good deed is good enough to secure ones one’s entrance to heaven. Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the father except by me.” We could say, “That’s not fair, only one way to heaven!” Instead, Christians say “Praise God, He gave us a way to Heaven, because none of us deserve it!”
Christians believe that if any person accepts Christ, regardless of sin in their life, they are given the righteousness of Christ and rewarded with eternal life with their Creator. It is that simple, there are no hoops to jump through, just faith in what can’t be seen or scientifically proven (although there is tons of historical and scientific evidence backing the truth of the Scriptures).
While Christians also believe in a literal hell, a place God created as punishment for Satan the deceiver, the only thing that would cause a person to go there is rejection of Jesus Christ, as He purchased our “ticket” to heaven through giving his own life to pay for our sins. It is not for the purpose of being used as a scare tactic to win new converts.
Christianity is a relationship, therefore out of gratitude to Christ for His sacrifice, Christians are to strive to follow His teachings, but they all lead to blessings so it is a win/win situation. We all struggle daily with choices, and homosexuality is just one of those struggles. According to the Bible and proven science, it is an unhealthy lifestyle choice, but is not something that prevents someone from being a Christian, but a person’s attitude about it obviously does. “Christian” means “Christ like”. He taught us to love and be humble; not to judge others based on our own self-righteousness, but on the truth of the Scriptures and to hold ourselves accountable to the same standards. I have done that and can say nothing further.
Lisa said “I am merely stating what Christians believe to be the truth of the Holy Scriptures regarding this subject.”.
There you go again, you pompous blowhard. You do not speak for all christians. Many, maybe most disagree with your hate speech.
Lisa said “God did however give us the Bible as a guide to help us know what was healthy and helpful behaviors…It is not about pointless rules for the sake of having rules, or oppressing people who do not believe in the Bible.”.
You should read that bible instead of spouting off about things you know nothing about. The bible asks that you stone disobedient children to death and kill those who don’t believe or try to convert you to other faiths. It guides people to destructive behaviors and is about oppressing those who do not believe in it.
Lisa said “While I’m not a scientist, I am an intelligent person and I have done my research”.
No you are not and have not. I pointed you to the overwhelming number of scientific, historical and geographical erros in the bible and you of course put your blinders on so you couldn’t see it. You’re a biased lying hack.
Lisa said “One would be delusional to state that any sexual activity outside of a monogamous heterosexual relationship did not pose a variety of health risks. Even with all the “protection” available there is no other truly “safe sex”. This is proven scientific fact that has nothing to do with anyone’ personal religious beliefs”.
You disgusting liar. There are no health risks in a mongamous same sex relationship. All the major mental and physical health organizations agree with this – that is scientific fact. You wouldn’t know a scientific fact if it bit you in the a*s.
Lisa said “No sin is greater than any other sin and singularly responsible for keeping someone out of heaven”
This is where your religion is unbelievable disgusting. You’re saying a loving monogamous gay relationship which hurts no one is a wrong equal to murder – you’re insane.
Lisa said “there are no hoops to jump through, just faith in what can’t be seen or scientifically proven (although there is tons of historical and scientific evidence backing the truth of the Scriptures).”.
You lying idiot. Stop the rote spouting of your lies and check out the truth – there is no historical or scientific evidence supporting the idea that the bible is true and tons of historical and scientific evidence showing it is a lie:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/
Lisa said “the only thing that would cause a person to go [to hell] is rejection of Jesus Christ, as He purchased our “ticket” to heaven through giving his own life to pay for our sins. It is not for the purpose of being used as a scare tactic to win new converts.”
Oh, spare us your BS, the concept of hell was made up precisely to scare people into following the Islamic/christian religion.
Lisa said “We all struggle daily with choices, and homosexuality is just one of those struggles. According to the Bible and proven science, it is an unhealthy lifestyle choice”.
You’re a liar. Every major mental and physical health organization says gayness is a healthy valid lifestyle for a minority of the population. The proven science stands utterly opposed to the oppression and hatred you preach.
Since Priya Lynn thoroughly (and fabulously) tore the rest of Lisa’s ridiculousness to pieces:
“As a Christian I am qualified to comment on Christian doctrine.”
No, you’re not. As an American, I am not qualified to comment on American beliefs, because there are many, many variations of American beliefs, some of which contradict each other. All I can comment on are my own beliefs, as an American. And there are many, many variations of Christian beliefs that don’t mesh with your beliefs, and don’t mesh with your opinion of the bible. The fact that there are THOUSANDS of different Christian denominations, with more splintering off every year, makes it rather hard for one person to act as sole spokesperson for the religion, especially since it sounds suspiciously like what you’re doing is reciting what you personally believe, rather than some learned position of objectivity.
You are trying to speak from a position of authority that you don’t hold. You are not a scholar. You are not a historian. You are not all Christians. All you are speaking is your own personal opinion of something that can never be known (the mind of God, for instance), based on your interpretation of an outdated, edited, mistranslated book and the false premise that it IS the mind of God, and applying it to the religion as a whole, under the arrogant assumption that everyone in your group believes the same way you do.
They don’t.
First and foremost, Jesus Christ paid the price for sin, all sin. As sinners we need to repent of our sins, whatever they may be, and turn to Him for forgiveness. As to the interview, just how pathetic can a so called Christian be to rationalize and justify her sin on the premise of the Greek translation of the Bible. Scripture tells us it is a sin, from the Old and New Testament. What else do you need? If Knapp wants to rationalize her chosen lifestyle that the translation does not really say this and that, that’s on her and that decision puts her salvation in jeopardy. They way I see it, Knapp wants to have both ways, have the title of Christian, but at the same time be worldly and living a sinful life. Knapp is not lost, just misguided and confused. She needs to turn from her ways and turn back to Christ, asking Him for forgiveness. That’s what He does, He forgives and that’s why He went to the cross.
Thank you for saying nothing new or interesting.
Genjiro:
Factual truth, faith, and self-sacrifice are all absent from your comment.
Your proud ignorance about people and about faith serve as a warning to people who might otherwise mistakenly follow you into your lifestyle of dishonesty, spiritual superficiality, and selfishness.
Whats happening here? I can’t help but notice how all those who ‘fanatically’ claim 2b xtians speak with grace, love and undrstndin, while all d gays, atheists and haters of anti-gay beliefs, raid d thread wit insults lyk ‘lying idiots’ ‘blowhards’ and oda sarcastic slights….wel 2d xtians i c d Holyspirit hs don hs work in u 2 ‘make ur words salted with grace’ its evidnt all thru ds lenghty thread(i’ve read everysngle tin) wait! Where did dat quote of mine come 4rm?…oh ryt! D bible…gues dat buk does change people 2 conform 2 a certain way of living and speakn. The contrast is very clear, one group is hateful, d oda is graceful…if i didnt belong 2 any group i wud hav chosen ryt naw, 2d true Christians Dnt bother…no one has eva been convertd bcus they lost an arguement 2 a christian…Godbles ya’ll