Call me Jezebel.
If you were Lou Engle, you would. He would call all of you Jezebel. In fact, he did last Tuesday night in St. Louis at a revival at the Gateway House of Prayer. As Wayne reported on Friday, Lou Engle and the team from TheCall are holding a series of revivals/schools every night from June 19 to July 12, open to the public. Thus, it was as a member of “the public” that I traveled to St. Louis on Tuesday to attend one of these sessions, alongside approximately two hundred of Engle’s faithful followers.
Most of the crowd was under thirty, and the striking thing was that most wouldn’t have looked out of place at Starbucks. They were suburban, to be sure, but there were also more than a few visible tattoos in the room. This is Lou Engle’s “Elijah Generation,” which represents a shift away from the overly coiffed, good-haired fundamentalist men of stereotype as well as reality. Quite frankly, I didn’t feel out of place, physically. However, mentally, spiritually, and emotionally, it was soon made very clear that, though no one in the Gateway House of Prayer made so much as a move to speak to me or welcome me*, they considered me not only to be an enemy, but moreover one of the greatest threats to their well-being. This was disconcerting to experience as an adult, fully removed from the angst-ridden, closeted paranoia of my conservative Christian adolescence, but I’ll come back to that in a moment.
The evening began with a worship team leading the crowd in singing what some might call “songs,” for almost an hour and a half. However, they really weren’t “songs,” but more repetitive kindergarten-level chants. The praise leader would seize on a line like “I love you Jesus” or “Worthy is the lamb,” or a short, equally simple verse, and then lead the group in singing it over and over again, sometimes for more than ten minutes, before going seamlessly into another simple phrase and melody. The overall effect, I noticed, was a sort of hypnosis that fell over the crowd, as the young people in that room showed how serious they were about praising God by swaying, dancing, holding their hands in the air, and the like. Those in the front were the first to stand and sway and raise their hands, and, like a slow wave, the physical expression moved backward through the rows until it reached, and passed behind, me. The congregants would call this “The Holy Spirit,” perhaps, but really, it was just good old fashioned peer pressure. More than anything, the word that kept going through my head was “occult.” They were doing nothing less than going into ceremony, as Lou Engle’s bodyguard/bouncer kept a watchful eye from the front corner of the room, perhaps peering into the crowd for evidence of uninitiated outsiders or insiders not fully toeing the line.
Behave as a member of the tribe, or be discovered. And so I did, until Lou Engle finally stopped rocking back and forth in his seat in the front row and began to speak. I have embedded, in several segments, most of Lou Engle’s talk.** For each, I will summarize, analyze and comment on what was said, and the implications therein. If you’re pressed for time, I’m putting the most significant/egregiously awful quotes in bold print. The summary starts after the jump.
1. Lou Engle starts his message on the theme of governmental intercession, through prayer and fasting. He asserts at the beginning that he is a prophet, and not a teacher, which is telling, for several reasons. It shows that we’re dealing with a person who is not only delusional, but also not really a scholar of his chosen subject, the Bible. Engle introduces the story of Jezebel and Ahab, found in 1 Kings, to draw a parallel to modern times where, Engle believes, other Christians who he views as unorthodox are the root of most problems. On one side are Lou, his followers and like-minded people. He will later refer to them as the “Yahweh Separatists.” On the other is basically everyone else in the world, including most Christians, who he refers to as a “Jezebel” generation. He intones the call of the Calvinist reformers, “Sola Scriptura!“, which I think would probably amuse those old Calvinists, considering.
“If we’re struggling with a homosexual, same-sex desire, LET THE BIBLE KILL YOU, rather than make it easier for you, and say well, there must be a better scriptural answer to this … Brothers and sisters, let the Bible kill you rather than you twist the scriptures! And in that killing, it will break you so that you can find a redeemer and a savior! Oh, I believe there are those struggling with same-sex desires who will stand, having done everything to stand, and maybe they won’t find the deliverance they’ve been looking for, but they refuse to let the world dictate their theology; they’re gonna stand on the Bible. And they may go for thirty years in an agonizing struggle, but they go into heaven because they stood with God rather than standing with the ideologies of this world.”
This is the first of many egregiously offensive quotes from Engle’s talk, and it merits a moment’s examination. Engle will claim later in the talk that this sort of speech is symbolic, but I find that explanation to be lame for a couple of reasons. For one thing, the penalty for same sex (male) intercourse in Torah was indeed death. In some parts of the world, we have evolved past that sort of animal behavior, but in some places, we obviously have not. Uganda, for instance, from which Lou Engle just returned, and by some accounts, expressed support for the anti-gay genocide bill in that nation. This is the beginning of a pattern that runs rampant throughout Engle’s talk to his followers: Say something extremely violent, and then attempt to gloss over it or reframe it as something less violent and hateful. (This, as you will hear, also is occasionally followed by a third step: Openly worry about whether this is being taped.) So I believe it’s a fair criticism to point out that not only is Lou Engle invoking some of the most violent imagery in scripture, but is putting his feet on the ground and lending aid and comfort to people who are likely to act on that teaching in the most literal way possible.
Engle then proceeds to begin his explanation of why marriage equality is not a civil right, by invoking Isaiah 28, which mentions the “plumbline of righteousness.”
“You weigh every decision, say, for instance, the way you vote — OH, we’re getting political, Lou — God never abdicated one sphere of society to the Devil! It’s all his! Let me tell you, there’s gonna be…anyway.”
At this point, Engle catches himself, and chooses not to say more. He knows when he’s teetering close to the edge of Things He’s Not Supposed To Say. But, as you’ll see, Engle quite often comes back to this idea that everything that is, including the secular American government, is under the purview of God.
2. At the end of the last clip, Lou has begun talking about why gay rights are not civil rights. As we move into the second clip, he concedes that equal rights may “seem right,” but asserts that, when you align the idea of equal rights for all people with the “plumbline of righteousness,” equal rights don’t measure up. But note, again, that Lou is fully aware that he is teaching on the idea of CIVIL marriage rights. He hasn’t mentioned a word about those old Religious Right scare tactics of gays forcing churches to marry us, etc. He’s talking about the government, and why our secular government should deny equality to its citizens, based on his interpretation of the Bible. This is also his argument against abortion. In an almost mocking tone, he derides the idea of abortion having anything to do with women’s rights and autonomy, but explains that his interpretation of the Bible trumps that. Remember, again, though: Lou is a self-styled prophet, not a scholar.
“Voting is not just a political act! It is not just a choice that you make. It’s not some kind of decision. I’m shouting it. The Bible says that God gave Adam the responsibility to govern! From the beginning, man was given the government of the earth! Romans 13 says all government is derived from God’s government. It’s all delegated authority, and that those governors are to rule in such a way, in the fear of the Lord, Psalms chapter 2. So, if all government comes from God, then THE GOVERNMENT WE HAVE IN AMERICA IS FROM GOD! So, who is the government? Not Barack Obama! It’s a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. Therefore, when you vote for those who shed innocent blood, you are making a governmental decision under the government of God! You are actually in the rebellion of Psalms 2! You will actually be held accountable for how you govern! We have to tremble in the voting booth. We should tremble in voting booths! You don’t choose a person because you feel good about him, or he feels like maybe he’s going to change the world, YOU VOTE ON THEIR STAND ON THE FOUNDATIONS OF BIBLICAL TRUTH! Because if you don’t, you’re actually handing the keys to people who have anti-Christ spirits! You are actually giving authority to someone who is in rebellion to God! … There is a higher government than the governments of men. We are a citizenship of heaven, and that citizenship of heaven influences everything we do, every decision in our lives. I want to stand before the Lord and say ‘When you gave me the government in America, I did what you wanted me to do.’ Because if I don’t, then we’ll hear those same words of Psalms 2, Therefore you kings be warned, Tremble you judges of the earth. Who are the kings?”
That’s a long quote, but it’s important, because it establishes that the style of Christianity Lou Engle teaches is one which doesn’t really respect the ideals of the United States very much. It certainly doesn’t respect the Constitution, and has no time for such quaint notions as the separation of church and state. As Lou Engle teaches, people are to vote on two planks, really: a candidate’s position on abortion and homosexuality. He doesn’t go as far as to name candidates, but it doesn’t take much guessing to figure out what he’s saying. For instance, in 2012, Barack Obama will be running against a GOP candidate who will likely be a bigot who does not support women’s rights and autonomy. He may play cute with the guidelines for what he can and cannot do, but there’s Lou Engle’s endorsement right there: Not Barack Obama.
Later in the clip, he draws more parallels to the story of Jezebel and Ahab, a government he describes as “demonized to the max…and they are hostile.” He then says that “The Yahweh separatist prophets gotta kill those guys!” Again, note the violent rhetoric. Does Engle ever suggest that his followers should kill anyone in the American government? No. He simply tells the story of Jezebel and Ahab, what they did, what their ideological opponents did, and lets the people in the room connect the dots. You’ll notice that after he says “kill those guys,” several in the room audibly voice their approval. Now, am I suggesting that the average person in that room that night was a violent threat? Goodness, no. But this is the kind of eliminationist rhetoric that, when it goes into the ears of certain kinds of crazies, can be deadly.
3. “Our president two days ago came out and said ‘We bless the fathers of families that have two fathers’! This is a decree, a blessing, called this month, LGBT pride month. When decrees come from high places, it actually opens doors! It is a key! It unlocks the spiritual realm for the fueling of the demonization of culture! Is this being taped?” <voice from bouncer/heavy off to the side interjects “We can erase it.”>
When Barack Obama talks, demons are unbound. Gotcha. This is one of several moments in the night where Buffy the Vampire Slayer suddenly shot through my mind and I had to stifle a smile. Oh no, Spike is evil again, and the Hellmouth is about to open and that means it’s gonna be an active night, Buffy. You will have to stand your guard, but don’t worry, Willow will be with you!
Again, because Barack Obama had the audacity to acknowledge that there are lots of kids out there with two dads, and that it’s Fathers Day for them too.
“Where the battle most rages to be silent, that is where the demonic powers are actually focused, because Jezebel’s whole goal, the things she hates the most, are the prophets, and at all costs, she wants to silence the prophets.”
Note the quick back and forth again, between the Jezebel story and the present day. This is a subtle victimization ploy, as Lou is telling his followers that the places where he is most pressured to stay silent are actually the places where the demons are cavorting most freely. Lou believes he has been appointed by God to fight the “homosexual ideology” (whatever that is), but we’ll get into that later.
Lou then suggests that they are beginning, with their twenty-one days of revivals, a movement that will turn America “back to God,” as Lou imagines it. This is, of course, a world without gays (which does not exist), and a world where women are once again forced into childbirth. He recounts dreams and prophecies he claims to have been given, and explains that he is under a personal commission from God to take America back.
Then a guy comes up and explains a dream he had in which he violently killed Jezebel, and the congregants clapped and cheered. Now, I understand that there is a very Lord of the Rings quality to all of this, so it could be interpreted that way, but I don’t think it’s insignificant that a man is standing in front of a congregation inspiring everyone by telling them about a dream he had wherein he violently killed a woman. This is not normal.
“Either we are insane…or we believe that God is bigger than the devil, and that prayer is the most powerful force in the universe.”
Self-explanatory.
4. Engle teaches that God is going to release the spirit of Elijah on him and on his followers, as a fulfillment of Revelation 2, so that they can defeat “the spirit of Jezebel,” which, he says, now exists in the Christian church.
“When men leading this nation as Christian leaders speak of gay Christians, they are actually false prophets! There are Christians struggling with same-sex desires, but those who are gay Christians, who say, “This is my lifestyle, and God is pleased with it!”, this is false prophets! I’d like to just shout it in the news, but they’ll vilify me.”
It should now be apparent that Engle and his followers literally believe these things, and that no amount of intervening reality is likely to change that. Lou takes the stance of faux-victimization in this quote — “they’ll vilify me!” — but unless “vilify” now means, “recount one’s words verbatim,” then no, I’m not vilifying Lou Engle. That being said, there is something profoundly disturbing about a group of people existing in the year 2010 in the United States, with access to Google, with ease of travel, with the ability to acquire library cards, who understand so little about sexuality that they’re willing to suggest that those who teach that God’s kingdom is open to all, even gay people, are “false prophets.” Not in Lou’s world. The intersection of faith and sexuality is really not my thing, but I know many, many gay Christians who are, themselves, the living negation of Lou’s hateful teachings.
About halfway through the fourth clip, Engle refers to Revelation 2 as “the words of Jesus…red letter edition!” This is interesting, since Revelation was written as the result of a vision or hallucination of John when he was imprisoned at Patmos, and was in no way a “firsthand account” of Jesus. But this is the Jesus Lou Engle comes back to continually: the Jesus of vengeance and judgment. Scarcely present is the more familiar Jesus of redemption and love. I don’t get the feeling Engle and his followers draw much inspiration from that Jesus. The Jesus represented here is killing and maiming, and Lou teaches that this is because Jesus wants a “pure bride,” in a world of immorality. Indeed, Jesus is reading our minds looking for immorality, because he “loves us so much” that he will stalk us to the ends of the earth, making sure we’re worthy to be his “pure bride.” I hope I don’t have to explain how creepy that is, and how misogynistic its imagery is.
“If you overcome Jezebel in your generation, you get power and authority over the nation!”
Yeah, that still sounds pretty separatist to me. It’s a strange kind of separatist, which seeks to gain power by defeating the imaginary spirit of an ancient slut lady, but it’s still separatist. Buffy the Vampire Slayer shoots through my mind a second time.
5. Between the fourth and fifth segments is one of the missing sections, which will be uploaded as soon as possible. However at the beginning of the fifth segment, we jump in on one of the creepiest moments of the entire night, as Lou Engle is explaining the “prophetic dreams” he had which called him to his work in St. Louis. Basically he says that God told him that, on the spiritual plane, he is like Charles Lindbergh flying the “Spirit of St. Louis,” that he, on the spiritual plane, IS “St. Louis” (of Engle?), and that his mission IS “The Spirit of St. Louis.” People, the man is delusional, and he’s got a flock of followers behind him who believe every word he says. He’s a cult leader.
“Saint means HOLY and Louis means WARRIOR. Holy war! I like that!”
For the record, Lou Engle is down with the idea of “holy war.” He likes it. In Arabic, they call that jihad.
He then moves into another dream he supposedly had, where God told him he had given him authority over Jezebel, and indeed told him to open his St. Louis church on Lindbergh Boulevard. This, to Lou Engle, is all the fulfillment of divine prophecy, but if you’re not familiar with St. Louis, let me explain something. It’s hard to drive around St. Louis without hitting Lindbergh Boulevard over and over again, because the road is very, very long. Think of the longest, busiest streets in your town. Lindbergh is one of those. Also, as Charles Lindbergh hailed from St. Louis, his name is on quite a few things there! But instead Lou Engle believes this is all evidence that in St. Louis is some sort of “well” that God has “deposited” for them.
Lou Engle continues to recount his dreams, with his followers oohing and aahing at him, as he explains how, he believes, God is giving him a “word of authority” over the government of the state of California, starting with the recall of Governor Gray Davis.
“I’m invited to go to San Francisco and preach at a black church. I’m speaking on the Elijah – Jezebel revolution, showdown, and the homosexual movement that’s going on and coming out of San Francisco. In walks a tall white man, sits in the front row, I don’t know who he is, and everybody’s looking at him. At the end of my message, the pastor says, “the mayor of San Francisco is here today. He’s just been elected and he wants to say something.” The mayor gets up and says something, then they ask me to pray for him, I lay my hands upon Gavin Newsom, and I pray, “Lord, I thank you that ALL government is derived from your government, therefore let this man know he will be held accountable for everything he does in this city under the government of God.” Psalms 2. Thirteen days later, Gavin Newsom, 2004, began to marry the homosexuals ILLEGALLY, in California … God sent a man to him to warn him that he’d be held accountable.”
Lou Engle believes he was sent personally by God to warn Gavin Newsom that he would be judged.
“This point could be the high water mark of the homosexual revolution in America. Do not get me wrong. We do not hate homosexuals! We love homosexuals, we pray for them, we get involved in their lives … but we stand firm against ideologies!”
No. They do not. It is as simple as that. They tell themselves that they love us, because it makes them feel better about the rest of their ideology, which envisions us dying in a battle between angels and demons. They cling to a belief that sexuality is simply “behavior” or “ideology,” though all the forces of reality know differently. Make no mistake, people. They are at war with us, as people.
6. “I get on television, and oh, the pressure to be politically correct, because I know EVERY WORD is being weighed by the prophets of Ba’al in the media.”
Lou Engle believes the only reason they are called “haters” is because they are the only ones who are willing to call things “evil.” He believes that the media is another front for their jihad, and that if they pray and fast hard enough, then God will give them authority over the media. Again, they are strange separatists.
“I speak intensely and that’s the stuff that gets on YouTube. I think I’m gonna erase this … don’t distribute this message. Or maybe I should!”
Well publicized event, dude, open to the public.
Lou continues recounting the dreams and visions experienced by him and by his friends. A friend, apparently has a dream about two tornadoes, with the letters “HA” and “HA” inscribed on them. These, we will find out, stand for “abortion” and the “homosexual agenda.” So basically, they were traveling on Highway 70 after this dream, and decided to look up Psalm 70 for support. I don’t know what they do when there’s no Psalm with the number of the highway they’re on. I imagine that’s a lonely feeling. Anyway, among all the words of that Psalm, there appears a line which contains the words “A-ha, a-ha.” The followers ooh and aah. Now, I don’t know if Lou made a mistake the first time when he said “H-A, H-A,” but somewhere in the middle that story, “Haha” turned into “Aha,” and I’m the only one who seems to have noticed.
“It’s the rod of God! I am looking for the secret of heaven that can penetrate the homosexual agenda with the love of Jesus and the truth!”
Rod. Penetrate. Homosexual Agenda. Got it.
“I sent my son to San Francisco with a group of people to pray for three years. They actually had a dream. They saw a three-story homosexual man, a huge giant, and they were throwing like rocks at it and nothing would happen to it, and then suddenly the foreman rolled a scroll and it read “Jehu’s Covenantal Community,” and the giant shriveled to nothing!”
Nightmares about three story tall homosexuals. Got it. This, of course, is another prophetic dream.
That is the end of the audio I have, at the moment. There are two more segments which I will upload later, but these should suffice for now. In one of the missing segments, though, Lou wonders whether the talk is being taped for a third time, and that is when he refers to this meeting as “The Stealth Bombers Meeting,” a message not tailored for public consumption, but meant only for the flock. I’m glad to be able to share it with you.
To sum up, I’d like to go back to my experience of the people in the room for a moment, if I could. They bristle at being called haters, because I honestly believe that hatred is not their intention. Yet they have been spoonfed a system of false beliefs about LGBT people for so long, and with such frequency, that they believe that we are evil by rote. I highly doubt that many of them have any real, tangible experience with gay people, and what little experience they do have is likely with approved gay people, i.e. those who have “repented” of their “lifestyle” and “turned to Jesus.” They have experience with gay people who have hit rock bottom and thus become susceptible to the truly evil message that the way God created them is intrinsically bad, and that they have to abandon who they are in order to be loved. However, their antipathy and animus toward gays isn’t actually toward us, because they don’t believe that we actually exist, or rather, they are unwilling to accept what science and human experience has taught us about human sexuality. They simply believe that we are “broken” people and that something as integral as one’s natural sexuality can be abandoned if we simply “die to Christ.” Yes, it is preposterous, but nonetheless they accept it, because they’ve been trained to view all other competing information as if it came from the Devil himself. Those are their intentions.
However, they are not blameless. As I alluded to above, I didn’t feel out of place in the room, at least not physically. I saw tattoos, I saw trendy clothes, I saw dyed hair, and a number of the people in the room looked like they were on their way to a Dave Matthews concert. I also saw a lot of iPhones, which, as you might be aware, can access the internet quite easily. Lou Engle visits Uganda, but these people were in an upscale white neighborhood in suburban St. Louis, in the United States of America. They have all of the resources and access they need to make truly informed decisions about the world, if they so chose. They have vehicles which could take them just a few minutes down the road to neighborhoods where LGBT people live, work, drink coffee, go out for cocktails, and everything else. They all, presumably, know how to use Google, and they all, presumably, have working minds, capable of questioning and analyzing what they’ve been taught and how it compares to the experience of reality. Having been brought up in a religious environment with similar ideology (but not similar expression), I’m well aware that groupthink is a powerful force, and that questioning long held beliefs and biases can be one of the most frightening things imaginable, because it requires us to take the active step of separating ourselves from the comfort of the tribe. Often, an impetus of some sort is required which forces such questioning to the forefront. In my case, it was reconciling what I had always known about myself — that, among my many other characteristics, I was physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually attracted to men — with the beliefs under which I was raised, and which I indeed held for a long time. Unfortunately, though, and all too often, the impetus in families like that doesn’t come from the liberating experience of self-questioning and research, but through tragedy. The suicide rate among young gay people is still miles higher than that of the general population, and the streets in major cities are full of gay teens who have been kicked out of their homes and disowned. Their families are the living embodiment of “Forgive them, for they know not what they do.” So I would encourage any who might have been in that room on Tuesday night, or who may have been in similar rooms, to take the bold step and ask yourselves the following question: Is it possible that there is a part of this story I don’t know? Would it possibly be valuable for me to try to get to know a gay person who hasn’t been “healed” in Lou Engle’s religious organization? Is it possible that we could be wrong about this?
Because let me tell you something: Despite what Lou Engle and similar leaders may teach, I don’t hate a single person in that room, including Lou Engle. I don’t want to take your freedom away, and I certainly don’t want to take your faith away, if it’s meaningful to you. But you do hate me. You may gloss over that truth with catchphrases like “Hate the sin, love the sinner,” but any and every gay person could tell you that those are meaningless sentiments, because we understand what so many of you are unwilling to accept. Sexuality is not like alcoholism, or cheating, or gambling, or drug addiction. A person can fight and conquer a drug addiction. A person can make a solid effort to stop lying or cheating and be largely successful. But as Timothy Kincaid said in a piece several months ago, once those people conquer their sins, I’ll still wake up in the morning attracted to men, just as straight people will be attracted to the opposite sex.
The tide is turning on acceptance for gay people, to the point that around 70% of the nation believes gay couples should have some sort of legal recognition. These numbers are only going up. Lou Engle’s followers can go on believing that this is all the work of Satan, that a great spiritual battle is being waged in the heavens wherein angels and demons are fighting for the souls of men, and they can go on believing that happy, healthy LGBT people are the reincarnated Jezebel, a spirit which they must violently kill. Or they can open their eyes and look around them and consider the possibility that maybe, just maybe, gay people aren’t out to get them. We will defend ourselves, to be sure. But I certainly don’t wish them any ill will. I challenge them to examine reality, learn about worlds outside of their own, and answer this: What good reason, that is factually verifiable, do you have to continue hating me?
*I hate to say that I was not surprised by this, but I wasn’t. If, upon seeing a new person, several people had come up to introduce themselves, I would have been shocked and been able to say “At least they were friendly.” However, in my myriad experience with different kinds of Christian congregations, I have found, almost to a T, that the more liberal a congregation is, the sooner a complete stranger will walk up and welcome a newcomer, and that conservative congregations of all kinds tend to keep to their tribes.
**Don’t worry, you aren’t missing much. There’s some small talk at the beginning that’s cut off, a missing middle segment, and a final segment which will be up once a technical issue is resolved.
Tags: anti-gay, dexamethasone, fear, Gateway House of Prayer, hate speech, informed consent, Jezebel, Lou Engle, medical ethics, medicine, wingnuts93 Comments »
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I know we like to call our political enemies ‘nuts’ as a matter of course, but this guy *really* sounds like he has delusions of grandeur.
Besides being rabidly homophobic, it was quite clear by his constant referencing the ‘enemies of God’ as Jezebels and ‘she’ that there’s more than a little misogyny in this guy too.
Two other chilling images came to me when you were describing Engles and the effect he has on easily lead people. The first was of Charles Manson and his ‘family’ and other was that this gathering was a type of microcosm of a nazi party rally, where a charismatic speaker can ‘pied piper’ ostensibly civilized, normal people into violence and eventually murder. Very scary indeed.
Comment by Gary (NJ) — June 30, 2010 @ 12:51 pm
The word you want is megalomania. It’s not used to much any more, but it is entirely appropriate.
Comment by ben in oakland — June 30, 2010 @ 1:20 pm
“Is this being taped?” I’ll bet Nixon wishes HE’D asked that question early on. Funny how these Republican clerico-fascists all start to look the same after a while.
-D
Comment by Derek — June 30, 2010 @ 2:17 pm
Wow. Evan, you had to have put hours and hours of work into making this available to us. I hope you know how much it is appreciated.
My understanding is that Engle and his kind are part of the “Christian Dominionist” movement which seeks control of “seven mountains of culture” to prepare the way for Jesus’ second coming. They rely heavily on the occult type of energy that you described and appoint themselves as prophets.
I particularly like your observation, “Lou Engle visits Uganda, but these people were in an upscale white neighborhood in suburban St. Louis, in the United States of America. They have all of the resources and access they need to make truly informed decisions about the world, if they so chose.”
Comment by Deborah — June 30, 2010 @ 2:30 pm
[...] LOUIS – Truth Wins Out’ released a special report today, “The Stealth Bomber Meeting”, that detailed a chilling sermon in support of theocracy in [...]
Pingback by Truth Wins Out - TWO Exclusive: Inside Lou Engle‚Äôs Anti-Gay Revival — June 30, 2010 @ 2:37 pm
His use of the words “rod” and “penetrate” in this context are positively poetic. Freudian slip much, you miserable old closet case?
Comment by Scott Amundsen — June 30, 2010 @ 3:03 pm
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Comment by OSTV — June 30, 2010 @ 3:43 pm
I have been reading these articles with interest as I have some teen cousins that are down in STL for this “music camp” (they call it).
It greatly concerns me what their mental state might be as they go through this “camp” and their years within the IHOP scene.
Most interesting will be family reunions… so far the parents won’t allow children under 12 to be near me as they might ‘get the gay demon’ from me like a cold. Hrrmph!
Comment by Dawn — June 30, 2010 @ 4:03 pm
“The intersection of faith and sexuality is really not my thing, but I know many, many gay Christians who are, themselves, the living negation of Lou’ hateful teachings.” ~E
As a gay Christian, Evan, I find this to be quite a high compliment. I truly hope that I live up to it.
Thank you for not demonizing Christians in the same way that Lou Engle is guilty of demonizing folk like you and me.
Comment by Rick James — June 30, 2010 @ 4:33 pm
I’m sick to my stomach thinking of all the Christians who are buying this CRAP!
Comment by Rick James — June 30, 2010 @ 4:56 pm
Thank you for this information and commentary! You’ve done wonderful work.
Comment by Angie — June 30, 2010 @ 5:15 pm
well this has freaked me out – well done for this work evan, you should write a book…
Comment by Darwin's Bulldog — June 30, 2010 @ 6:53 pm
Is it 2010? Maybe it’s 1010. What’s a thousand years? How do young suburbanites fall under the spell of someone who is obviously a lunatic living in a self-imposed closet. I realize the twenty-somethings often experience a desire for spiritual experience or an awakening from the material world, but to fall for someone like Engle is beyond description. It could be the Herbert Hoover in him that appeals to his flock. It could be just a them or us thing, but whatever it is it is not Christianity. It is insanity.
The only realistic explanation for a crowd of two-hundred people is that they must have believed that the sermon included a free meal and a couple of hours out of the cold. I am terribly sorry, but I find it difficult to believe that the brightest and the best attend this type of meeting, unless they are there to satisfy curiosity, or have a couple of hours to kill.
Comment by gc_wall — July 1, 2010 @ 3:44 am
LOL!!
I’ve had a few fucked up dreams after smoking weed, but god damn! Three-story homosexuals, a god rod, penetration. It must suck that he’s so obsessed with dick and homosex that these things are also the subject of his seriously disturbed dreams!
But it’s hilarious that homosex is all things to people like Lou Engle – from morning to night, obsessing about what teh gays are doing in their bedrooms & stuff. You’d think people could find better things to make themselves miserable with.
Comment by Scott — July 1, 2010 @ 6:33 am
Scott, Lou shouldn’t obsess ‘about what the gays are doing in their bedrooms’, because like most heterosexual couples, when we’ve been together for many years, most of the time the only thing we’re ‘doing in our bedrooms’ is just sleeping. :(
Comment by Gary (NJ) — July 1, 2010 @ 9:59 am
[...] prayer meetings in St. Louis, observed this penchant to create a god in Engle’s image. Some examples: He asserts at the beginning that he is a prophet, and not a teacher, which is telling, for several [...]
Pingback by Box Turtle Bulletin » When Dominionists “Take Their Equal Places In Politics” — July 1, 2010 @ 11:19 am
[...] feel like I’m still detoxing from the in-depth special report I posted yesterday, my account of my experience inside the belly of the beast at Lou Engle’s [...]
Pingback by Truth Wins Out - Lou Engle, Continuing the Delusion, Says SCOTUS Decision May Signal End Times — July 1, 2010 @ 11:42 am
Very true Gary, if he looked into my partner and my bedroom last night he would have just seen us watching “Top Chef.”
Comment by Daniel — July 1, 2010 @ 11:52 am
On a lighter note, someone needs to do a techno mix of Lou Engle’s bizarre preaching. I don’t have the musical skill or technical know-how to do it myself, but I’m sure some creative mixer could make a great song featuring “rod of god”, “penetrate”, and “three story tall homosexual”.
Comment by Angie — July 1, 2010 @ 1:06 pm
Good idea Angie, then they can combine it with the ‘eat da poo poo’ guy in africa videos on youtube.
Comment by Gary (NJ) — July 1, 2010 @ 2:11 pm
They don’t hate people that are gay. he says it clearly. This is one man’s opnion. No one could read his mind. What if he really does wanna help and pray for them? I hope the writer of this article opnion doesn’t effect yours. Have you ever talked to Lou face to face?
Comment by Jane — July 1, 2010 @ 4:07 pm
Yeah, Jane, they don’t hate us. They just want to shove us in closets and lock the doors. If they could, they’d make it legal to kill us as they’ve done in Uganda.
People like you “love” people like us to death.
Comment by Buffy — July 1, 2010 @ 4:53 pm
“I see no upside (and plenty of downside) to permitting multiple partner marriage. If the downsides could be mitigated–without placing undue burden on others–I see where the law might someday be changed.”
It is arrogance in the extreme to think that he has the either the right to judge for me that I have a need for his prayers, and/or the spiritual cachet to speak for me to god and have some sort of influenbce on what god thinks.
Personally, I think he should be praying that god won’t judge him for so throughly judging others.
I seem to recall that this is a sin in need of redemption.
Comment by ben in oakland — July 1, 2010 @ 6:39 pm
Sorry, my clipboard ewasn’t working, and i didn’t notice.
“What if he really does wanna help and pray for them? I hope the writer of this article opnion doesn’t effect yours.”
It is arrogance in the extreme to think that he has the either the right to judge for me that I have a need for his prayers, and/or the spiritual cachet to speak for me to god and have some sort of influenbce on what god thinks.
Personally, I think he should be praying that god won’t judge him for so throughly judging others.
I seem to recall that this is a sin in need of redemption.
Comment by ben in oakland — July 1, 2010 @ 6:42 pm
Hmmmm….God rod, etc., etc., maybe we have another Ted Haggard or George Rekers here waiting to happen. I must admit that I’ll celebrate the day that someone catches Engle on his knees someplace “where he ain’t supposed to be.” Perhaps that’ll shut ‘im up!
Comment by Mike in Baltimore — July 1, 2010 @ 8:11 pm
[...] revelatory? Lou Engle recounting the nightmares his son had about three story homosexuals. And so on. Of course it’s fear. It’s deranged, cornered, shivering under the [...]
Pingback by Truth Wins Out - Don’t Call Them Homophobes — July 2, 2010 @ 1:48 am
You’ve missed the most important part of this story, which is that Lou Engle is NOT just the leader of a lone nutty cult. He’s part of a much larger worldwide network, known as the New Apostolic Reformation, which also includes Mary Glazier’s prayer network, to which Sarah Palin belongs.
The NAR is an emerging network within the fastest-growing branch of Christianity, the so-called “non-denominational” independent Charismatic churches. It has explicitly theocratic goals, as exemplified by Lou Engle’s rhetoric which you’ve quoted. And they are very big on trying to put their members into positions of power (the “Seven Mountains Mandate”).
However, so far, the mass media haven’t paid much attention to the NAR. A lot of NAR leaders are individually well-known, but they are usually characterized in the mass media as just “evangelicals” rather than as members of a distinct movement. But we need to become more aware of the distinct — and very nutty, and very dangerous — movement that some leading “evangelicals” are a part of, which is NOT just garden-variety evangelical Christianity. (In fact, if you Google “New Apostolic Reformation”, most of the stuff you’ll find is by evangelical Christians who consider the NAR to be heretical.)
For more information about the NAR from a queer-friendly perspective, see the “Talk to Action” blog.
Comment by Diane Vera — July 2, 2010 @ 2:19 pm
Diane:
thanks for writing. We did not miss that part of the story, but chose to focus on the revival and not the worldwide picture. But we certainly are aware. Thank you for bringing in this perspective. You are certainly correct in your assessment.
Comment by Wayne Besen — July 3, 2010 @ 9:04 am
Another thing: Lou Engle has his fingers in lots of pies. He’s very intimately involved in the Rifqa Bary fiasco from last summer. (Teenage kid becomes born-again Christian, runs away from home to Florida, alleging that her Muslim parents will try to kill her for apostasy. Her parents, who let her be a cheerleader in high school, are not the hardliners she claims them to be and they just want her home.) In fact, since Bary will be turning 18 very soon (within a month or so) I expect we’ll be hearing more from her and more from her idol, Lou Engle. *shakes head*
Comment by mirele — July 3, 2010 @ 9:43 am
It both saddens and angers me to think that all of this happened in the city where I grew up–MY hometown–probably not ten minutes from where my parents still live. My neighbors could well have been among these people for all I know.
It feels like a personal attack in a very real and scary way…
Comment by tbaxfer — July 5, 2010 @ 3:17 am
I think the Lindbergh obsession is another possible red flag. He is a hero of the neo-nazi movement.
Comment by the problem child — July 5, 2010 @ 7:14 pm
I see two gay mustaches in the picture at the top of this blog entry.
Comment by JE — July 6, 2010 @ 1:42 am
There’s actually a third, but you have to focus your eyes all weird to see it. Hint: Engle’s gay mustache has a gay mustache.
Comment by Evan Hurst — July 6, 2010 @ 1:57 am
Evan would you be willing to share your testimony with us…I know I would love to hear it.
Blessings
Shaun
Comment by sjglsi — July 6, 2010 @ 1:39 pm
Testimony? You mean religious testimony?
No.
Comment by Evan Hurst — July 6, 2010 @ 2:00 pm
Well, the reality is that these people really do believe that a homosexual lifestyle is displeasing to God and that liberal agendas are taking over the culture of the USA. I can understand, as a gay person, that you would be offended at these views. But I believe your offense is coloring your understanding of and reporting of Lou Engle’s speech and group.
There is a level of paranoia that comes through in your interpretation of these events, and I can say that because I spent weeks with Lou Engle’s group a few years back and know the drill and what they are saying. Many of the stories Lou shared while you are there are stories he was sharing a few years ago as well and I’ve heard them first hand. I can assure you that these people are NOT violent, and while there is typical symbolism used that is used all throughout the New Testament (remember, the New Testament is the document where Jesus told people to be nonviolent, so the “violent” language there is generally actually used to turn violence on its head metaphorically) about fighting spiritual war, you have to understand that “spiritual warfare” in a christian sense involves nothing more than denying one’s own urges, prayer, and speaking up about things unpopular to those around you.
It is easy to take sound bites, especially when themes like “spiritual warfare” or “killing your urges” are being employed and make it sound truly awful. But my guess is that you would be offended simply because these people would say homosexual lifestyles are immoral, and all the rest is simply a way for you to dismiss these guys as fruity wackos and people who should be silenced. All I can say is – you’re wrong.
Also, I do want to mention that your perception that people were being moved by peer pressure to sway to music etc etc is probably just hypercritical on your part..having been in these meetings, I can say I truly enjoyed the music and didn’t feel any peer pressure at all – if one is acclimated to that style of singing, it is very enjoyable to sing along, much like you would at your favorite concert. The people you think were staring at you trying to figure out if you were an outsider, just reveals your insecurities and paranoia around christians.
I hope you can do some more evenly balanced reporting in the future.
~ One of Lou’s former prayer kids.
Comment by Heather G — July 6, 2010 @ 10:55 pm
Thanks for sharing, Heather. But you’ve gotta realize that even if an ‘insider’ (or former insider) feels this way, Engle’s “ministry” ultimately needs to be weighed on the impact of his rhetoric.
Lou’s policy – and I say this as someone who grew up Assemblies of God, married a Vineyard gal, spent years in the ‘prophetic’ movement, and still have close personal and professional ties to all of the above – is both frightening and repugnant, no matter what you believe about LGBT people.
Lou’s public persona and publically-stated ideas have consequences. Like the “Kill the Gays Bill” in Uganda, which hasn’t passed yet but is already causing gay and lesbian men and women throughout Uganda to be kidnapped, killed, beheaded. Please take a moment to read the first six or so stories I’ve bookmarked at http://delicious.com/zoecarnate/gaychristian You might find some of the editorial tones a bit too hysterical – I understand that; reporters without a background in the ‘Spirit-filled’ world often don’t ‘get’ the worship and modes of expression – please examine the facts: What Lou has said in speeches, the relationships he’s cultivated in Uganda; how the Ugandans have translated his rhetoric into reality. And *tell me* we can’t do better as followers of Jesus.
Comment by Mike Morrell — July 6, 2010 @ 11:13 pm
Heather, your observations are interesting, but, I believe, misguided in several key ways:
1. You assume that I’m not used to being around Christians. I was in fact raised in a very, very Evangelical environment, and have lived both inside and outside that world. I referred to one person keeping watch over the group, not “people” staring. You’re making up things that I said, which I don’t appreciate. There was indeed one person keeping watch, and he had the air of a sort of rent-a-douche bouncer. He stood at the front, off to the side, the entire night. If you actually read the entire piece, you would know that I specifically mentioned that NO ONE ELSE made so much as a move to introduce him or herself to me, which kind of negates your suggestion that I said “everyone” was staring, and thus negates your suggestion that I was “paranoid.”
2. You assume that I’m suggesting that the people there were violent. On the contrary, I SPECIFICALLY stated in the piece that I didn’t believe that most of the people in there were violent, but rather that, just as with ALL eliminationist rhetoric (and believe me, radical, yet nonviolent Muslims apologize for their own violent imagery as well), when it reaches the right set of crazy ears, it can lead to violence. We see this in the radical anti-choice movement, where most of the people who are anti-choice aren’t in any danger of bombing abortion clinics; oh, but then there are those who do. Why? Because the reckless claims of the anti-choice movement, just like the reckless claims of Lou Engle and his “warriors,” do indeed reach people who are particularly susceptible to becoming violent. There is a reason why anti-gay hate crimes are still very prevalent. This shit does not exist in a vacuum. It comes from radical right-wing rhetoric.
3. I stand behind my statements about the music. Why? For one thing I used to work in church music, of the very high church kind, but I also have a lot of experience with everything from Baptist praise music to Presbyterian RUF-style guitar re-imaginings of hymns to yes, repetitive, simple, chant-like “songs” in the Pentecostal tradition. You may not see it because you might not be far enough removed from it to see it, but there is INDEED a herd mentality that takes over, and there is indeed a lulling effect to it, because that sort of music does not engage the mind. In fact, it serves to kill off brain activity and bring the congregants into ceremony. This is why I said that the word “occult” kept going through my mind, because it was a much less tasteful version of ceremonies far more ancient than Christianity.
Comment by Evan Hurst — July 6, 2010 @ 11:15 pm
Heather said “Well, the reality is that these people really do believe that a homosexual lifestyle is displeasing to God”.
Don’t come here and insult us Heather – there is no such thing as a “homosexual lifestyle”. Gays live a wide variety of lifestyles and no one is specific to gays. Being same sex attracted or in a same sex relationship is not a lifestyle and christians like you use that as a code word to defame gays by suggesting that all gays are promiscuous drug using alcoholics.
Heather said “the New Testament is the document where Jesus told people to be nonviolent”.
Jesus also preached violence:
“Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.”
“Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.”
“And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death”
“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”
Comment by Priya Lynn — July 7, 2010 @ 12:19 pm
By gay lifestyle, I mean, engaging in homosexual sexual activity….which has nothing to do with your projection onto me of “promiscuous” or “drug using” or “alcoholics.”
When Jesus talks about brother delivering up brother, and parents putting kids to death, it is not recommending this action…rather Jesus is saying that becoming a christian will result in having mean people kill you for your faith.
This is what I mean by paranoia. No one is talking about killing anyone…if anything, Jesus simply warned his followers that others were going to try to kill them.
Comment by Heather G — July 7, 2010 @ 7:47 pm
Actually, no, Heather, and I can quote chapter and verse of violent rhetoric from the Bible, and you can be an apologist for it just like conservative Muslims apologize for their violent rhetoric.
Don’t come in here and act like you’re the authority on Christianity and the rest of us have no clue what we’re about, please, because it makes us laugh.
One of the things atheists have most in common with each other is that we tend to know the Bible FAR better than most of our Christian counterparts. So spare us.
AND AGAIN: I used to be an Evangelical. I know the lingo. I know the buzzwords. I know all of your apologetics. I know all the excuses fundamentalists use for why THEIR rhetoric isn’t REALLY violent. Meanwhile, another abortion doctor gets murdered, spurred on by violent CHRISTIAN rhetoric, and another gay kid gets the shit beat out of him at school, spurred on by EXTREMIST CHRISTIAN beliefs.
You’ll see if you actually read this blog that there are not just atheists here. There are Jews, there are Christians, there are agnostics, and lots of other things. But the common denominator between us is that we recognize extremism, and Lou Engle is a dangerous extremist cleric.
You can apologize for him all you want because he made you feel warm and fuzzy and wanted back in the day, but it’s not going to change anything.
Comment by Evan Hurst — July 7, 2010 @ 8:09 pm
Heather,
Jesus never preached about “becoming Christian.” He was a Jew. He preached keeping certain aspects of Jewish law to Jewish people. He lived and died a Jew, not a Christian.
Jesus clearly wasn’t interested in establishing a new religion. In fact, he was just one of a very long line of Jewish apocalyptic theologians from roughly 300 BCE to 200 AD. Instead, Jesus railed against dogged adherence to Jewish law (as championed by the Pharisees) and the priestly power structure of Judaism (headed by the Sadducees). As an apocalyptic Jew, Jesus knew the world would end soon and demanded that his followers focus on kindness and good works, not power or oppressive laws. For this reason, Jesus said that his followers would be persecuted.
In all honesty, we do not know what Jesus thought about his and his Jewish people’s relationship to Yahweh because Jesus–like 99% of the people in the world in 30 AD–couldn’t read or write. What we have is a bunch of hearsay from oral (and sometimes written) traditions about Jesus that were combined into numerous gospels some 40 to 70 years after his death.
And, yes, I am an atheist and, yes, I know the Bible and Biblical history far better than most of my Christian counterparts. Part of the problem with extremist Christian beliefs is blatant, and sometimes unrepentant, ignorance of Biblical and world history. Such historical myopia places the Bible and its characters out of their respective historical context and allows ignorant people to interpret the Bible to suit their own, selfish beliefs.
Comment by Omar — July 11, 2010 @ 6:47 pm
Heather, we have reason to be paranoid. Gay people are constant targets by religious people and the violent rhetoric of these groups is not being misunderstood by us–it’s being misunderstood by you.
Comment by Daniel — July 11, 2010 @ 9:18 pm
I was at this mtg. I am one of those crazy people that you think have not experienced this homosexual culture accurately or without love. You would be wrong on both accounts. I was in the fashion business, a buyer for a major dpt store & had the pleasure to meet many gay men. I say the pleasure because I believe them to be some of the most fun loving people you would care to share your life with. The fundamental difference is that I love them enough to know that God does not intend their life to be lived in that fashion just as he doesn’t want me to cheat on my husband (no matter what my desires may tell me). By the way, we all wake up and decide which sin we will or will not commit. Do you think that God did not create people who truly wake up and want to kill someone? Is that best for their life or others? And you are right we are the Starbucks generation-we are not able to be put in a trance by any man standing in front of us saying things 100 times over but if you ever experience the Holy Spirit for yourself, you will find, if he leads you to jump on your head that is what you will do. There is nothing like being in God’s presence. We will continue to pray because God changes hearts. I understand that can be threatening to those who wish to stay in ANY sin.
Comment by Lisa — July 11, 2010 @ 10:40 pm
Lisa,
The sin that you will remain in is ignorance. If you don’t know how wrong you are about gay people by now, you never will. Jump on your head for all of us, won’t you.
Comment by John — July 11, 2010 @ 11:11 pm
Lisa, perhaps I gave some of the people at the meeting too much credit.
If you have worked in the fashion industry and claim to have had the “pleasure” of knowing gay men, yet hold the beliefs you do, you never loved them in the first place, because you are unwilling to accept the reality of sexuality, and are instead choosing to rewrite reality based on what you’ve been taught. There is no argument about this. You have no proof that “God intended” anything, because you hold to a belief that is not grounded in reality.
I am sorry if any of your gay “friends” have been hurt by your beliefs, and I hope none of them ever got close enough to you for you to hurt them up close.
Comment by Evan Hurst — July 11, 2010 @ 11:12 pm
Lisa, it says a lot about how messed up your religion is that you could participate in this hate fest and claim you’re all about love–I don’t pray for the destruction of people I love–and I don’t deny them their rights. But you really show your true self when you claim being gay is a sin and then compare it to shooting up a Starbucks. You don’t even see how ugly that is.
Comment by db — July 11, 2010 @ 11:46 pm
Please know that I do not and will not ever pray for your destruction. I pray for your redemption. That is very different.
Comment by Lisa — July 12, 2010 @ 12:35 am
To comment 30. Eddie??? Is that You?? May not be your neighbors but could be your family. And Yes.. we are praying for you, Love you and miss you.
Comment by Lisa — July 12, 2010 @ 12:49 am
No, Lisa, you do pray for our destruction, because you believe that homosexuality is some sort of sin we “choose” to engage in, instead of acknowledging the reality and the science. You believe that we are not entitled to the things others are, aren’t entitled to be the most important person in somebody’s life, aren’t entitled to experience the full intimacy of marriage, and you worship a man who teaches that we’re no different from murderers or addicts.
Your beliefs are not those of love, and if your god existed, it’s not a god any decent, loving person would worship.
Comment by Evan Hurst — July 12, 2010 @ 1:05 am
What is the “homosexual culture,” exactly? Is it like the “heterosexual culture”?
It always infuriates me when people say that they love gay people, and in the same breath say that they should change, especially for the sake of someone’s god. This is probably the worst place on the internet to argue that sort of thing, because TWO knows what goes on for the people who are coerced by guilt or fear of hellfire into trying to change themselves, including many that bear scars from said “treatments” and many more that don’t survive.
Apparently it’s love to expect someone to struggle needlessly with their own nature, that does no real harm to anyone, and live a lonely life of celibacy (or marrying into a sham heterosexual marriage, which harms even more people than just the gay victim), while beating themselves up (figuratively or literally) because they think that every day that goes by without being straight makes them a failure to their god.
Because of people who claim that they love them, while “othering” them into a homosexual “lifestyle” or “culture”, stripping them of their humanity (gay people are incapable of intimate love on the same level of heterosexuals?), and telling them that their very nature is abhorrent.
Comment by Makyui — July 12, 2010 @ 4:17 am
Omar, maybeyou’re better versed in biblical history than christians, but not more so than Jews. otherwise you’d know that equating “pharisee” with “law-loving hypocrite” is inaccurate at best; anti-semitic at worst. In fact, Pharisees were the most liberal of Jewish sects, and taught many things Jesus espoused, save from restrictions on divorce, and they also did not teach that thinking about sinning is as bad as doing so, which is much more liberal.
I recommend this link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharisee#From_Pharisees_to_rabbis
Comment by Emily K — July 12, 2010 @ 8:07 am
Lisa said: And you are right we are the Starbucks generation-we are not able to be put in a trance by any man standing in front of us saying things 100 times over but if you ever experience the Holy Spirit for yourself, you will find, if he leads you to jump on your head that is what you will do. There is nothing like being in God’s presence. We will continue to pray because God changes hearts. I understand that can be threatening to those who wish to stay in ANY sin.
Reply: No, Lisa, you are a bigot and the one who is sinning. You worship at the feet of an irrational, combustible, angry, demented madman. That is not normal. And any thinking person who watches Engle for more than two minutes instinctively understands how sick he and his followers truly are. They need professional help. What is missing from your life that would make you submit to a manipulative, controlling figure like Engle? Are you that emotionally, spiritually and psychologically empty?
You need to know there is a better way to live. You do not have to bow to his fantasies and visions. Engle is a petty, little man, not a prophet. Lisa, you have been sucked into a cult of personality. You can escape this trap if you remain strong.
Lisa, does it not bother you that in the name of religion, fundamentalists opposed the rights of women? That they opposed the rights of African Americans? That they were incredibly anti-Semetic?
Given this disgusting history of being flat our wrong on basically every subject that really matters, is it not the height of arrogance for you to claim you are correct this time about gay people? How about a little humility, given this sordid past?
Your crowd speaks with such conviction — and that is the biggest sin of all, given what history has taught us.
You’re crowd was wrong then and it is wrong now. Regardless if they drink Starbucks or Sanka – they are wrong. Immoral is immoral. Dressing in hip clothes and shamelessly aping the wider culture while hypocritically claiming to reject it does not change how destructive and toxic your so-called spirituality truly is. Again, you belong to a cult of personality. Own the truth and escape before it is too late.
Lisa, you can change your lifestyle. You do not have to be a bigot pretending you love people that it is quite obvious you truly look down upon and despise.
Comment by Wayne Besen — July 12, 2010 @ 10:53 am
Lisa, you know what happened to Jezebel in the Bible? She was thrown from a window and her body was eaten by dogs. In comparing gays to Jezebel it seems pretty clear that what this man wants in our destruction. You don’t seem to know the Bible all that well.
Comment by db — July 12, 2010 @ 11:42 am
Heather said “By gay lifestyle, I mean, engaging in homosexual sexual activity….which has nothing to do with your projection onto me of “promiscuous” or “drug using” or “alcoholics.”.”.
Oh spare me the BS Heather. Having same sex sex is not a lifestyle, a lifestyle is what you do the other 99.9% of the time when you’re not having sex. You tell gay people that is what you mean by “lifestyle” but when you’re with your christian cult members or speaking in public against gays you go on and on about how the “homosexual lifestyle” is one of promiscuity, drugs and alcohol and any other destructive behavior you can think of – you’re not fooling any of us.
Heather said “When Jesus talks about brother delivering up brother, and parents putting kids to death, it is not recommending this action…rather Jesus is saying that becoming a christian will result in having mean people kill you for your faith.”
Nice try Heather, but that’s no even close to what those passages mean, they speak for themselves. Jesus says he came to bring violence, not peace, he condoned killing disobedient children and bragged about eternally torturing people merely for what they were thinking.
Lisa said ” love them enough to know that God does not intend their life to be lived in that fashion just as he doesn’t want me to cheat on my husband”.
You talk about loving gays and then insult them in the next breath. Two loving monogamous gays is nothing like you cheating on your husband – its not dishonest, its not spreading diseases, its not hurting someone and yet you like the hateful clueless bigot you are you equate the two.
Lisa said “We will continue to pray because God changes hearts. I understand that can be threatening to those who wish to stay in ANY sin.”
A sin is the breaking of arbitrary religious rules, its not the same as wrondoing and in that we can assure you we are not at all threatened by your judgement that we are remaining in “sin”. If by “sin” you mean wrondoing you are grievously mistaken. A loving monogamous same sex relationship hurts no one and is thus not a wrongdoing or “sin” of any sort.
Comment by Priya Lynn — July 12, 2010 @ 11:59 am
Lisa: “We will continue to pray because God changes hearts”.
I’m always fascinated about Evangelicals and the actual dynamics of their “prayers”. I’m mean practically, when they say they pray, are they really doing it? Lisa, how often & how long do you pray for GLBT people? Do you pray one minute a day, or a minute per month? Or do you pray for hours & hours a day that gay people will find their way into the heterosexuality that you obviously feel would make them as whole and acceptable to God as you have become? Just how much energy do you personally invest in praying for us? Are you praying enough and if not, why not? If you genuinely “love them” certainly it is your responsibility to put your beliefs into action and spend hours and hours praying for gay people to change. Nothing less can be acceptable for a Godly witness like yourself who desires to show GLBT people the light that you have found.
I have another idea Lisa. Why not pray for an amputee instead? Or a child born with a cleft palate or Down’s Syndrome? Or maybe a young hemophiliac? Pray for hours and hours a day in your prayer closet. Get all of your fellow believers to join you in this worthy endeavor. Just pick a very needy and deserving one and faithfully pray for him for 6 months and come back and report on the “change” that person has experienced because of your work. Then we will know that you are a faithful woman of prayer who walks her talk and that we can expect the same change in our lives that your prayer project has received.
Comment by Paul Douglas — July 12, 2010 @ 12:24 pm
I want to first say that I do not bow to Lou or any other man. I bow to one man and one man alone-Jesus. I would love to know why you think that this sin is indeed different then all the above that you listed. I could take a page to write my sins, in which I acknowledge, in which I wake up with on a daily basis and repent for. God loves me & he loves you. We can choose to change what we struggle with or not. He will continue to love you, that I am certain about. He has given us freewill to choose or not choose him. But I am truly confused at why you think that my sins are different then yours are. I know that God looks at them the same. About the science, I believe you may be confused. You wish to not be in the same category as an addict and then you speak of science. The last time I checked addictions are chemical imbalances in the brain. Is that something that they can choose? This debate can go on and on. By the way, I think they say in grade school “sticks and stones can break my bones but words can never hurt me”. I do not know why you resort to name calling. Name calling is only for those with no legitimate arguments. I am not a bigot. I do love. Do you think I do not love my friend that has a drug addition and yet want better for his life? Or maybe the ones I know that do cheat in committed relationships-can I not love them and wish better for them? Love covers a multitude of sins and no matter how you would like to paint it-YOURS ARE NO DIFFERENT THEN MINE. I have to say the rights of women is a joke. I am a woman. I am blessed with rights. I have the right and the choice to sleep with whomever I choose. A baby after the fact does not have that right. They are just led to the slaughter that they did not choose or have a say in. I was told one of my daughter’s had a 0% chance of survival before she was born and that my only choice was to abort. I did not know if she would live or die. What I did know was that it was not my choice to make. I would love for you to look my beautiful daughter in her eyes and tell her that she should not be here. As for the African American comment, I think you should see who is being killed by abortion. The African American’s are the ones who suffer. Jews are God’s chosen people, what more needs to be said there?
To Evan I wanted to say I thought this piece was very well written. I think you painted an accurate set of events. I do believe all of ours views could not be further apart and my commentary would of been the polar opposite of your own. Having said that-Thank God for America, that we are free to express both sides. In a side note on people not welcoming you. This event had people from all over the US and all different churches. This was not a church service. People were committed to going there for a specific purpose-worship & prayer. There is a time and a place for meet/greet. The church should always be working to know others so that they know what their needs are. However, this was not that time. I am sure I will continue to be portrayed as a hater. Just know that I could spend time with you, probably laugh with you and wish you no ill will. When you care for others you always want the best for them. Lou is a kind spirit who only wants the best for others and our country. I think you will agree-being in that meeting that no one was worshiping Lou but all were worshiping the Lord. This is an important distinction because we are not followers-only followers of the Lord. Therefore, we are not a violent cult about ready to drink the Kool-Aid as the blog is trying to imply we are. Jesus was not violent, he laid down his life for others to take that part.
Comment by Lisa — July 12, 2010 @ 12:40 pm
Lisa, what you are missing is this:
When you say you want a “better” life for gay people, you are being extremely condescending, as you’re implying that your solution would be “better.” Many gay people have unhappy lives, just like many straight people have unhappy lives. Likewise, many of us are EXTREMELY happy, either in joyful, fulfilling relationships with our spouses, or happily single! It suggests that you’ve bought into the rhetoric about gay people being “lost” and miserable, and it belies a certain ignorance about who gay people actually are! Have you ever spent any time with a gay couple who’s been together for 20 years, the kind that still goes on dates with each other, just like many happy straight couples? You’ll find that, as hard as you try to find something, there’s nothing “missing” from their lives, at least no more than there is from the average straight couple’s lives.
The ONLY difference is that, due to religious rhetoric and teaching ingrained into the culture, the rates of depression and suicide for gay teens are much higher than that of the general population, because those kids have been hearing from a young age that what they are is wicked and not enough for God. But guess what? The ones that make it through? The ones who triumph through that are some of the strongest, most well-rounded people you’ll ever meet.
So, please, spare us the condescension about “wanting a better life” for us. Sexuality cannot be changed through prayer. If you truly “wanted a better life” for gay people, you’d be on our side fighting for the kids we run across every day, the ones who have been disowned by their families for being gay, some of whom have been thrown out on the street and end up in shelters, or in the home of a close friend of mine who, with her husband, takes in young LGBT people who have been thrown out and cut off financially from their families (usually during their college years) simply for being honest about who they are. You wouldn’t be trying to repair a problem that frankly doesn’t exist.
As I said, though, in the piece, I don’t believe the average person in there means to be hateful. I do believe that you all need to examine the actual results of your beliefs and your words, because it’s VERY EASY when you’re surrounded by that worldview to remain unaffected by the reality around you. I know this because I’ve been both inside and outside a fundamentalist Christian worldview, and I grew up with extremely orthodox beliefs. They hurt people. Period.
Comment by Evan Hurst — July 12, 2010 @ 12:58 pm
Lisa said: I want to first say that I do not bow to Lou or any other man.
Fact: Lou is a cult of personality. Anyone who is adheres to his teaching is bowing. Lou is not about the Bible. Lou is all about Lou. Lisa, what you are doing is a form of idol worship. Are you so dissatisfied with your religion that you must worship a man/idol?
Comment by Wayne Besen — July 12, 2010 @ 1:31 pm
Emily K,
I never once equated Pharisee to a “law-loving hypocrite.” I find it quite disingenuous that you’d even infer such a thing from my response and to put something I never said in quotes as if I did. It was a relatively simplistic observation (and historical truth): Pharisees were quite concerned with formulating and keeping Jewish law. You’ve shown your true colors, as the word Pharisee has a negative connotation now (particularly among Christians), indeed denoting a hypocrite, but, of course, I NEVER SAID SUCH A THING.
Again, it’d be prudent for religious apologists to abstain from interpreting the Bible to suit their own beliefs. You’ve just proved how dangerous it is. The words in my response were around for approximately 24 hours before they were distorted by you. Imagine what contemporary Christians have done with the Bible.
NOTE: I also never mentioned that Jesus shunned their teachings completely, just certain aspects of Jewish law. In fact, I mention in my opening paragraph that Jesus kept Jewish law, but instead fought against dogged adherence to those laws. Please read more carefully.
Comment by Omar — July 12, 2010 @ 1:55 pm
I can hardly wait till the rapture comes and all these people get carried away and we can live our lives in peace.
Comment by Becky — July 12, 2010 @ 3:25 pm
Evan
Yes, I had a gay couple in the neighborhood that was together about 20 years. Like anyone else, one I truly enjoyed, not on the same page with other on most things. Anyway, we went to parties at their home. I enjoyed their company. I had not really taken enough time to pray for these people but I am trying to take the time now. There are lots of other groups of people that do need prayer and my heart usually tends to pray for them. I will continue to pray and you are now at the top of my prayer list. I can tell I like you already, fiery, full of life and unbending in your ideas. Just the type of person God loves to use for his purposes. Feel free to pray for me as well because I accept all prayers offered to Jesus Christ. God Bless You.
Comment by Lisa — July 12, 2010 @ 4:01 pm
So, Lisa, you enjoyed this couple’s hospitality and all the while you believed they were evil and going to Hell? I don’t think they needed you to pray for them–actually, they should be praying for you because of how judgemental and hypocritical you are. God bless you Lisa, you’re the one who needs it–not this lovely gay couple who were apparently very loving and open to others despite the hate that was projected at them.
Comment by Daniel — July 12, 2010 @ 4:35 pm
I had a dream about a 3 story homosexual once. But in my dream he was giving kittens and puppies to children and shooting rainbows and sunbeams out of his nipples.
Comment by Daniel — July 12, 2010 @ 4:42 pm
“Feel free to pray for me as well because I accept all prayers offered to Jesus Christ. God Bless You.”
Does Jesus know you’re standing in for ihm?
Comment by Ben in Oakland — July 12, 2010 @ 4:44 pm
Ben, dude your comment makes no sense. I am not standing in for him. It says feel free to pray for me because I personally am not offended by prayers offered to Jesus Christ. That was really out there….
Comment by Lisa — July 12, 2010 @ 4:49 pm
Lisa, you said “I accept all prayers offered to Jesus”–sounds to me like you’re equating yourself with him. Ben’s comment makes perfect sense. And your whole thing about this great couple whose house you went to–all the while you thought they were sinners was just weird. They sound like a lovely couple to me–as good or better than some hetero couples I know.
Comment by Becky — July 12, 2010 @ 5:30 pm
Lisa,
My partner and I are happily celebrating our 29th anniversary this month. And we really don’t care about you and your god-fantasies.
You are just another gullible superstitious Super Duper Christian arrogantly crusading to lure others into your delusional belief system.
But please, do continue spending a lot of time praying, though. At least while you are praying I know you are wasting time doing something totally ineffectual, rather than engaging in any actual mischief.
Comment by Richard Rush — July 12, 2010 @ 7:09 pm
Lisa: I was just yanking your chain. I know what you meant.
But the way you said it demonstrated the real problem here: spiritual arrogance.
You think you know the mind of god, based upon what you think you know your sacred book might possibly have to say about something it–and you– clearly knows nothing about. You also think you have the spiritual cachet to pray for me based upon what you believe you know about me, your book, and the mind of god.
honey, that’s not love, or prayer, or godlike. It’s just plain old narcissism, dressed up in it’s Sunday-go-to-meetin’ clothes.
Do you spend much time praying for the 5 billion people who don’t give a rat’s ass about Jesus, and who will consequently burn in hell forever? Do you pray for an end to hunger with the same fervency that you pray for gay people to stop being as god made them? Since Jesus was quite clear on the subject of divorce, while failing to mention homosexuality at all, are you busy praying for all of those sinning divorced people, or are you just too busy minding everyone else’s business.
Just what part of “look not for the speck in your brother’s eye lest you miss the beam in your own” does not apply to a good christian such as yourself? Maybe you should just direct ALL OF YOUR PRAYERS towards achieiving your own spiritual perfection BEFORE you start making time to comment on other people’s?
Wait. that would be just way too Jesus-y, wouldn’t it?
Comment by Ben in Oakland — July 12, 2010 @ 7:13 pm
richard– lol.
Comment by Ben in Oakland — July 12, 2010 @ 7:24 pm
Omar, you are the one who needs to read more carefully – or at all.
Pharisees did NOT “doggedly keep the law.” Rather, they espoused that “the whole of the torah can be summed up in this way: what is hateful to you, do not do to others – love thy neighbor as yourself.” This was at least about 100 years before Jesus supposedly existed.
Today, all Jews are Pharisees, because Rabbinical Judaism comes from the complex system of scriptural interpretation whose precedent was set by Pharisaism.
see: Hillel the Elder – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_the_Elder#The_Golden_Rule
As for “true colors,” well, I have no idea what that means in this context. I haven’t hidden anything.
Comment by Emily K — July 12, 2010 @ 7:31 pm
Dammit, I forgot the most important part, Lisa.
I don’t use the words “Spiritual arrogance” lightly, because they truly apply here. You know nothing of me, my faith, my relationship with Jesus, or any of it. The real issue is that you assume that you do, and that your beliefs are superior to mine. So, were I a Christian (I’m not, but were I) you assume that you have the correct version of Christianity, and I have the incorrect one. His Holiness also assumes that his version is vastly superior to yours, so much so that you should be kissing his ring. But I suspect that that doesn’t bother you much, because you know that yours is better than his.
But he doesn’t give you anybody to feel superior to. You don’t own a castle on Lake Gandolfo, eating with a golden fork while children starve in the favelas of Brazil. But your postings just drip condescension towards gay people– nice people, but too bad they’re gonna burn in hell forever.
As Timothy Kinkaid has oserved elsehwere, a lot of bigotry is not based in hatred, but in a feeling of superiority. You– meaning YOU– have to make decisions for us queers because we are so childlike, and just aren’t smart or sophisticated or righteous enough to know what is best for our own lives. So, “out of love”, you’ll decide for us, and in ways that won’t disturb your self-assigned superiority.
Thanks but no thanks. I neither need nor want your prayers. What I need is for you to begin minding your own business and stop minding mine.
Comment by Ben in Oakland — July 12, 2010 @ 8:09 pm
Lisa @ 62:
“Yes, I had a gay couple in the neighborhood that was together about 20 years. Like anyone else, one I truly enjoyed, not on the same page with other on most things. Anyway, we went to parties at their home. I enjoyed their company. I had not really taken enough time to pray for these people but I am trying to take the time now.”
What are you praying FOR? For them to suddenly run into relationship problems, break up, lose each other, and then “see the light”? Because if so, and I’m just being honest here, that’s a fucked up prayer.
Daniel @64:
“I had a dream about a 3 story homosexual once. But in my dream he was giving kittens and puppies to children and shooting rainbows and sunbeams out of his nipples.”
GET OUT OF MY DREAMS, DANIEL.
Comment by Evan Hurst — July 12, 2010 @ 8:14 pm
Lisa,
I’m curious. Do your friends know that you are praying that God will destroy their relationship? Do your other neighbors know that you are seeking instability in homes and conflict in the neighborhood?
I think that if I knew that a neighbor wanted some stable happy couple in the neighborhood to break up just for their own agenda (maybe a mixed-race couple, or a mixed faith couple, or just a couple who they didn’t like), I think the neighbors would not want anything to do with that person.
Or do you just hide your agenda so as not to be ostracized by those who would find it horrifying?
Comment by Timothy — July 12, 2010 @ 8:50 pm
Emily K,
I suppose I didn’t make myself clear enough and for that I apologize. Stories in the Bible obviously don’t equate to historical truth and I should’ve said that certain stories in the New Testament portray the Pharisees as doggedly adhering to the law. The stories are, of course, the perspective of one author who obviously was far removed from the events with his (or her) own religiopolitical agenda.
You defaulted to the Christian definition of a Pharisee whereas I was simply trying to simplify the stories as told in the Bible. Are the stories true? Well, no, most aren’t. I should’ve made my attempt at conveying a Biblical STORY clearer, whereas you shouldn’t have assumed that I’m wholly naive about the Pharisees. The Pharisees were quite concerned with formulating and keeping Jewish law. I mentioned this in my last post and it’s the truth. You cannot deny this…in fact, your articles prove it.
You mentioned that they engaged in liberal interpretation of Jewish law and your Wikipedia articles suggest that they attempted to make Jewish law accessible to common men and women. Sounds like formulating and keeping Jewish law to me.
Comment by Omar — July 12, 2010 @ 9:00 pm
I also had the dream with the hurricanes that said “A & G” on them, but I took it to mean I should get anchovies and garlic on my pizza.
Comment by Daniel — July 12, 2010 @ 11:29 pm
“The stories are, of course, the perspective of one author who obviously was far removed from the events with his (or her) own religiopolitical agenda.”
One must always remember that for quite some time, Christianity was a Jewish heresy. It only became a separate religion under Paul, who never found a thing that Jesus had to say which he did not feel free to contradict. For example, Paul was full of judgment, Jesus not.
So religio-political agenda is quite fitting.
Comment by Ben in Oakland — July 13, 2010 @ 12:59 am
Lisa said “I would love to know why you think that this sin is indeed different then all the above that you listed.”.
I explained it to you Lisa. The answer is obvious and you’re willfully blind to the truth because you love your bigotry and want to keep it. Gayness hurts no one, thus it is not a wrondoing. Cheating on your spouse hurts your spouse and is thus a wrongdoing.
Lisa said “Love covers a multitude of sins”.
That’s a nonsensical statement.
Lisa said “and no matter how you would like to paint it-YOURS ARE NO DIFFERENT THEN MINE.”.
If the your sins you’re referring to are acts that harm no one then you’re right. If your sins you’re referring to are acts that harm others like cheating on your spouse then our “sins” have nothing whatsoever in common with your sins.
Lisa said “Just know that I could spend time with you, probably laugh with you and wish you no ill will.”.
You want loving gay couples to give up the love of their life – you most definitely wish them the most evil of ill will.
Lisa said “I can tell I like you already, fiery, full of life and unbending in your ideas. Just the type of person God loves to use for his purposes.”.
Your god uses people – how despicable. People aren’t possessions to be used according to one’s whims and discarded when one tires of them.
Comment by Priya Lynn — July 13, 2010 @ 12:14 pm
I had the H-A dream too–but I thought it was Harry & Andrew, the princes of England so I started paying more attention to Cricket matches.
Comment by Becky — July 13, 2010 @ 2:50 pm
For me this is interesting for I have been around Lou Engle back in the late 90′s and on. This was before he felt called out of SOCA and to do The Call nationally which I have been to. Abortion has been his main issue but now it looks like he has joined the gay bandwagon. I understand how surreal the meetings look like, but the style of worship prayer and prophetic words traces back many years but style the way it’s done is based out of Kansas City called IHOP or International house of prayer.
I will agree that the people there really do not mean physical harm to anyone and feel that they have been called out to take a righteous stand in this generation. Religious freedom we all need and should welcome despite that we disagree. But what many need to hear is that there are multiple thousands upon thousands that went the ex gay route and it did not completely change them.
Now I know that a number of people will say I now believe in a doctrine of demons since I believe one can be gay and Christian. What I would like to see is more understanding on both sides. This means me moving out of my comfort zones and reentering the charismatic world and befriending men and women to show that our true agenda is equality. Maybe too much too ask but I really should try knowing there will be failures, disagreements, arguments but as well changed hearts and minds. Am I or anyone up for the challenge? This is one group that needs interaction with gay men and women willing to go against the grain. Not easy but since I’be been there know how powerful this could be.
Comment by jeff — August 7, 2010 @ 12:36 pm
[...] didn’t really talk about the fact that my favorite right-wing nutjob, Lou Engle, had one of his “TheCall” rallies in Sacramento this weekend. Kyle at Right [...]
Pingback by Truth Wins Out - Hilarious Monday Video: Cindy Jacobs Melodramatically Repents for Lesbianism — September 7, 2010 @ 3:25 pm
I guess this guy believes I am a false prophet. Whoopty doo, join the crowd buddy. I am straight, but the gospel is about faith and not works. FAith in Jesus is sufficient for salvation, gay or not.
Comment by Bible Study — September 25, 2010 @ 10:29 am
[...] than make it easier for you, and say well, there must be a better scriptural answer to this,” Lou Engle, one of the movement’s leading lights, bellowed at a St. Louis revival last year. “Brothers and [...]
Pingback by Truth Wins Out - Hate Comes to Harvard — March 8, 2011 @ 6:52 pm
Like your reporting. Don’t agree with some conclusions.
I may misjudge Lou Engle–but if “push came to shove” and your life was threatened and his choice were to save his own life or yours–I think he would give his life. I do not know exactly what it is–but I think gracious love comes in very different kinds of packages.
Some people “receive God’s word” and make themselves god. Others receive it and become the most humble of all. And yet the way these two talk, preach, and live might look exactly the same.
It might be that Lou Engle and you walking towards Jesus in brotherhood is more Godly and “right” than what either of you could ever do/be alone
Comment by lovetruthlove — March 9, 2011 @ 2:18 am
Lovetruthlove, there is a word for people like you.
Idiot.
Lou Engle is batshit crazy, and the REAL pain and misery his heretical (and by any orthodox standard, he is a heretic) crap has caused gay people is well established.
There is nothing gracious about him. And no, when people see someone as over the edge as him praised, we dont have to be gracious in calling them as they are (NOT as we see them, as they are).
Idiot.
Comment by Gene — March 9, 2011 @ 2:32 am
@lovetruthlove
Why on earth do you believe that about Lou Engle? You have no evidence to support your conclusion, but I’m guessing that you’re a fundamentalist, which means empirical evidence is your mortal enemy. Moreover, assuming you are correct and Lou Engle is the kind of guy who would throw himself in front of a bus to save a person’s life, what in hell does that have to do with whether what he preaches is absolute batshit or not?
The rest of your paragraphs are garbled nonsense.
Comment by Evan Hurst — March 9, 2011 @ 6:11 am
[...] Anyway, let me tell y’all a little something about Michael Brown, because he will very likely show up in the comments section to this piece, so starved for attention is he. He is absolutely, bizarrely obsessed with “dialoguing” with gay people, but he is not a good egg. He loves to pull people into long, drawn-out debates wherein he clings to the idea that he is exhibiting the “love of Christ,” when it is obviously anything but, and really just wastes people’s time. He does not actually care about gay people, at least not in a human way. He cares in that sick, fundamentalist way that says “I care enough about you to try to convince you to deny your true self and your humanity for the sake of my worn-out, disproven, harmful ideology.” He’s also linked with the utterly creepy Lou Engle, who I have experienced up close and personal. [...]
Pingback by Truth Wins Out - Anti-Gay Author Wants Attention — March 28, 2011 @ 8:01 am
ISIAIh 41 BRING forth your IDOLS did they PREACH to you see they can’t speak they can’t DO ANYTHING all they do is cause confusion. spalms 115 and spalms 135 thier IDOLS are FALSE cant speak can’t hear cant smell and those that make them shall become like them. Jeremiah 10 they nail their IDOL down like a scarecrow it can’t move can’…t speak can’t move must be carried these are nothing but the WORK of CON men.john 10 jesus christ sais his sheep hear his voice and another voice thy will not follow and if another person tries to preach to them they WILL FLEE from him. jeremiah 5 the priests bear rule on their own authority what will you do when your judged my word is not inside them. Now here is the kicker john 5 son of man voice goes back in time mathew 16 jesus christ claims to be the son of man.1 cor2 mind of CHRIST preached internally and john 16 sais the spirit of truth comes in the future. Ezekiel 13 lying prophets of ISRAEL my word is not inside them saying god sais god sais god sais wrote hoping mankind would CONFIRM their WORDS. all of this is EASILY verifiable.
Comment by jeff — April 30, 2011 @ 5:50 am
Better take your meds Jeff. Schizophrenia can sometimes be treatable with faithful adherence to proper pharmacy.
Comment by Paul Douglas — April 30, 2011 @ 9:30 am
[...] Bleeeeengh. For a closer look at what sorts of things Lou Engle says when he doesn’t think the media is watching, check out my investigative report from last fall, “The Stealth Bombers Meeting.” [...]
Pingback by Truth Wins Out - As If Detroit Hasn’t Been Through Enough Already… — August 29, 2011 @ 2:06 pm
[...] – Truth Wins Out will be in Detroit, Michigan this weekend monitoring Lou Engle’s The Call prayer rally at Ford Field. The event’s objectionable goals are to convert Muslims to [...]
Pingback by Truth Wins Out - Truth Wins Out to Monitor Anti-Muslim, Anti-Gay Rally in Detroit This Weekend — November 10, 2011 @ 10:41 am
[...] (pictured) is notorious for his angry sermons that use violent imagery against LGBT people. In 2010, Engle brought his organization, The Call, to [...]
Pingback by Truth Wins Out - Demonized in Detroit — FIGHT BACK NOW — November 11, 2011 @ 5:09 pm
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