Rachel Maddow reports on the kill-the-homos “minister” Bradlee Dean, who lurks behind Target and Best Buy’s favored Minnesota political leaders, Tom Emmer and Michele Bachmann.
After initially distancing himself and Exodus International, spokesman Randy Thomas gushed over Dean in this interview.
After backing away from his own endorsement of antigay extermination, Dean projects his own predatory behavior toward youths onto gay people. Emmer defends his financial donation to Dean’s hate-the-gays band, saying “These are nice people.”
Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy
I can’t speak for God.
Democracy lets man choose. We have the freedom of religion.
King, you say “I can’t speak for God.” but your initial burst of messages read like a Jehovah’s Witness tract.
King, then “socialist” policies freely chosen in a democracy can not be violating God’s will if God gives man the choice to make.
King Dudicus write;
“Democracy lets man choose. We have the freedom of religion.”
“One who believes without evidence is said to have faith Makyui.”
Indeed.
So, if God wants us to get rid of “faithlessness” — of not believing without evidence — then he prefers gullibility over truth.
Bob:
“1) God knows all possible futures you may have depending on what choices you make but doesn’t interfere with you making a choice.”
But he still ultimately knows what choice we’re going to make, so we didn’t actually make a choice at all.
“2) God potentially knows all but chooses to selectivly not know or perhaps to not keep in mind, certain aspects to satisfy your free will requirements.”
Then he doesn’t know the future, and is not all-knowing.
“3) God knows all possible futures depending on your choices but chooses to not see what choice you will make till you make it.”
It doesn’t matter if he sees it or not. If he knows what we’re going to do before we do it, then our choices are predetermined and we don’t have free will.
“4) Many Worlds theory. Every decision you make is a new universe that plays out. This involves infinite branching. There is a universe where you are an rabid anti-gay activist. You ultimately exist over an infinite number of universes. In some you go to Heaven in some you go to Hell.”
But all of those “mes” still have predetermined fates and don’t have free will. Also, this raises many, many more questions. Do we all have souls? Will we all meet up together in the end? If our choices and our experiences define who we are, are these other “mes” really ME? (A rabid anti-gay activist is not ME, because I am a gay ally.) Which one is the real me? Does my soul duplicate each time, or do we all have a near-infinite amount of souls for the near-infinite amount of universes that spring up with each choice I make?
“5) The human mind cannot reconcile that we have free will and that God knows all but God reconciles it.”
Whether or not we can “reconcile” it doesn’t change the truth of it.
“Anyway, I don’t have the final answer.”
I know you don’t, and I didn’t really expect you to. This is why it’s so dishonest when people claim it’s a fact that God is all-knowing and yet those icky homosexuals are disobeying their way into Hell with their free will.
“Because God is sovereign, he can choose to intervene in your life if he wants or he can choose to stay out let you drive.”
Then he is not in complete control.
“The spirit is all faith based,”
In other words, there is no more evidence for it than there are for leprechauns and unicorns. So, when you claim with absolute certainty the existence and nature of the spirit and whether or not it can die, you’re being dishonest because you don’t really know, you are just supposing.
Also, Bob:
I just realized my last answer to you might’ve sounded a bit snippy at the end. Honestly, you weren’t the target of the initial question (mine, at least), but thanks for giving a shot at answering, anyway.
Makyui , It’s not like I know as a measurable scientific fact that God is all knowing. It is more that I believe that the Scriptures assert that and I accept that but I don’t claim to have wrapped my mind completely around it.
“This is why it’s so dishonest when people claim it’s a fact that God is all-knowing and yet those icky homosexuals are disobeying their way into Hell with their free will.”
Let me try turning the argument around;
If God does not exist then you have no free will anyway.
The universe reduces to a machine and your sense of conciousness is an illusion. Your choices are determined by random quantum processes in your brain. You are not in charge. Likewise you should not blame anyone for holding different views or doing anything. No one is responsible for their actions. I am arguing that it is only because there is an all knowing God that you can have free will.
Makyui, Thanks but I didn’t sense that. “I just realized my last answer to you might’ve sounded a bit snippy”
“It’s not like I know as a measurable scientific fact that God is all knowing. It is more that I believe that the Scriptures assert that and I accept that but I don’t claim to have wrapped my mind completely around it.”
Then it’s a statement of belief, and that’s fine. Of course, that means you can’t claim it as a fact (which I’m not accusing you of doing; I’m just saying), and says something about your willingness to put faith over what might be truth, but that’s your choice.
“The universe reduces to a machine…”
The universe is a “machine” of sorts, regardless.
“and your sense of conciousness is an illusion.”
Our consciousness is a result of chemical reactions. All that simply means is that our consciousness is a result of physical and material things, and not something metaphysical like a “soul”.
“Your choices are determined by random quantum processes in your brain.
Not so. Our brains are built of proteins and minerals and are blueprinted by DNA, environment, and experience. Our choices come from our thoughts, which are built on experience and the structure of our brains. It’s not entirely random, or else we’d be incapable of structured thought at all.
Of course, some may argue that because our brains are hardwired in certain ways that might prevent us from being able to make certain choices, then we don’t have true free will anyway.
“I am arguing that it is only because there is an all knowing God that you can have free will.
But this is a contradiction, and there’s no evidence to the contrary.
At any rate, I wasn’t arguing that there wasn’t a god. Just that a god that can see the future can’t coexist with free will.
Yes, the universe is a machine off sorts. The question is if the human mind is merely a machine or more. Even apart from any supernatural there is a scientific debate going on if the universe is more metaphysical than reductionist. Metaphysical can include the supernatural but does not have to. There is growing scientific evidence that the human mind can sense some information non-locally.
Roger Penrose asserts that quantum processes are at the root of our thoughts. Sure, the physical structure is built from proteins and it looks similar for all brains but the quantum scale electrical processes going on inside those structures is what I meant.
“The question is if the human mind is merely a machine or more.”
No, the question is how a god can see the future, and yet gay people are supposedly at fault for the “choices” they make, and are doomed to Hell because of “free will”, even though a god that sees the future would mean that all choices are predetermined.
How is a lier a lier, and how is a murderer a murderer. By choice. If God made our choices for us then why’d he send his son to save us from them?
Bob?
My Proposal:
There is no possible way for us to conclude how our omniscient, omnipotent, and all seeing God gives us free will… if we even have free will. So how about we all leave this thread inquisitive and looking forward to the day when we all get to find out.
Heaven… Hell who knows… I’ll take my chances on the side that has hope after death. :)
Good Posting,
Dudicus
Kirin:
If he’s able to see the choices we make before we make them, then our actions are scripted ahead of time, and we simply follow along with what has been laid out.
“If God made our choices for us then why’d he send his son to save us from them?”
Why indeed.
King Dudicus:
“There is no possible way for us to conclude how our omniscient, omnipotent, and all seeing God gives us free will… if we even have free will.”
Bingo. That’s why it’s a problem when people state it as fact, and then base their morals on it.
“So how about we all leave this thread inquisitive and looking forward to the day when we all get to find out.”
I prefer to live life for life, rather than looking forward to death. But thanks. In the meantime, there’s a lot of gay/lesbian, bisexual, asexual, and transgender people that need a lot of support.
For those investigating the truth about real christians and real christianity please visit:
http://www.cbn.com/
These guys helped me out a lot when I didn’t understand certain things like the topic we’re talking about. You can even get Pat to address the question live!
Makyui,
Are you homosexual?
Makyui, It is true that a lot of Christians wrongly believe that being gay is just a choice and miss that they did not choose their own sexuality. It just is. When I talk to other Christians I try to point that out and I find that minds are changing when they think it through.
While I am not going to pretend that my concept of God does not have any issues with Homosexuality I will say that Christians make a much bigger deal of it that God probably does. Don’t take this as any kind of comparison but remember when Jesus condemmed the religious leaders of his day and said that prostitutes would enter heaven before they would. I think some vocal Christians are too harsh.
So, while I can’t say I can imagine Jesus presiding over a Gay wedding, I also can’t say I know for certain if two believing gay people are in love with each other and do marry that they are necessarily “doomed to hell” as you say any more than two Christian heterosexuals who marry and do any number of things I believe God does not desire. I know this might sound a little lame and I may have fallen off the log but I just don’t know…
Bob,
How about you?
Ohh, that’s the guy who said that gay people caused 9/11. Thanks, but no thanks.
“Are you homosexual?”
Does that matter?
Pat Robertson said that?
No. It’s probably a myth, that guy is into work-out, health, food and normal sermons.
Kirin, you are not going to convince people here that they chose to be gay. If you think choosing is possible then I ask you to try a little experiment. This weekend as you go about your business, try to see if you can make yourself attracted to someone of your gender. You are not required to do anything, just try to feel something for a few minutes. You should not consider the feelings themselves a sin since you are not planning to act on them.
And I need to stop double-triple-posting so much. Sorry ’bout that.
Bob:
“So, while I can’t say I can imagine Jesus presiding over a Gay wedding, I also can’t say I know for certain if two believing gay people are in love with each other and do marry that they are necessarily “doomed to hell” as you say any more than two Christian heterosexuals who marry and do any number of things I believe God does not desire.”
It helps that Jesus didn’t really say anything about homosexuality. :) Not that we know of, anyway.
If you’re not on a religious crusade against gay people, Bob, then I’ve got no beef with you on the matter. I know that there are Christians and other religious folk out there who don’t condemn it, and I tolerate that. My problem is with the folks who want to believe untruths and twisted logic about LGBT people, so that they can justify mistreating us.
“Pat Robertson said that?
No. It’s probably a myth…”
Falwell said it, and Robertson agreed. Then they apologized for it later.
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/f/falwell-robertson-wtc.htm
Kirin, here is the transcript..They are discussing the aftermath of 9/11.
Falwell said, “The ACLU has got to take a lot of blame for this. And I know I’ll hear from them for this, but throwing God…successfully with the help of the federal court system…throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools, the abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked and when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad…I really believe that the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who try to secularize America…I point the finger in their face and say you helped this happen.”
Robertson said, “I totally concur, and the problem is we’ve adopted that agenda at the highest levels of our government, and so we’re responsible as a free society for what the top people do, and the top people, of course, is the court system.”
“It helps that Jesus didn’t really say anything about homosexuality. :) Not that we know of, anyway.”
Well do consider that he was not opposed to the system but only to the hypocracy of the leaders. He believed in his Scriptures, what we call the Old Testament.
It sounds like Falwell was your accuser, Pat believes in the whole bible not just the old testament. Jesus is God… so he did say a lot about this thread in the bible. O.T.
“He believed in his Scriptures, what we call the Old Testament.”
Which may be true (I hear yes from some and no from others), though that then opens up a fat can of worms, at times.
“It sounds like Falwell was your accuser”
And Robertson agreed. Falwell said, “Gay people are responsible,” and Robertson said, “Yes.”