Good morning! I am Father John — standing in for Father Clifford Banes who is in court on unspecified charges today.
Today we are blessed, dear Catholic brothers and sisters, with a reading from the Book of Wikipedia:
The parable of the Good Samaritan is a parable told by Jesus in the Gospel of Luke (10:25-37). In the parable, a Jewish traveler is beaten, robbed, and left half dead along the road. First a priest and then a Levite come by, but both avoid the man. Finally, a Samaritan comes by. Samaritans and Jews generally despised each other, but the Samaritan helps the injured Jew.
Jesus is described as telling the parable in response to a question regarding the identity of the “neighbor” which Leviticus 19:18 says should be loved.
This is the word of the Internet Lord.
(Thanks be to God.)
My dear Catholic brothers and sisters. Clearly Jesus was an idiot. We must take heed of the idiocy of today’s reading, and learn from our brothers in Britain who show us the way to true holiness.
Britain’s charity regulatory commission has ruled that the Catholic Care adoption agency must serve gay couples. The agency had demanded that it be exempt from the nation’s anti-discrimination laws. … “The charity is very disappointed with the outcome, Catholic Care will now consider whether there is any other way in which the charity can continue to support families seeking to adopt children in need,” the group said in a statement.
Dear brothers and sisters, the Romans are at our doorstep — threatening to force us to be like the wicked Samaritan who helps the unholy in times of need. We are being persecuted, my children. Stand alert!
Do you want to be holy like me, the priest of the parable, or do you want to be brought down to the level of a despicable Samaritan?
Let us now rise and sing righteous songs of self-praise. For we are God’s people — and they are not!
Meh. Maybe now some non-bigots can handle adoptions. Let the whining homophobes wring their hands about how persecuted they are. They’ll hate themselves into obsolescence unless they wise up–which is fine by me.
I’ve said it elsewhere but I’ll repeat it here…
Could someone PLEASE tell the Catholic Church to grow the f**k up and join adult society?
And that can be said of the enTIRE evangelical community. According to MY calander, we’re NOT living in the Middle Ages and haven’t been for a few centuries now.
What would you say to such an adopted child who eventually becomes aware of his situation and declares he wants to have a mother and a father like other kids?
Stupid, stupid question, Bob. What would you tell such an ungrateful brat if he said that about his single mother or father — or to his orphanage where people like you want to lock up unadopted kids, Bob?
Bob, read your Bible. It has much to say about envy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Envy
Yeah, Bob, the kid’s much better with no parents.
When you say “like other kids,” you betray a sort of white male privilege that’s frankly a bit stunning. The reality is that kids grow up in all sorts of situations, and the fact that many kids have a biological mother and father in no way suggests that that’s a requirement for a good upbringing, the fevered mange-ridden barking of the Religious Right be damned. Indeed, all credible, peer-reviewed studies of gay adoptive parents show that our kids do as well or better than kids with a mother and a father. But again, like with global warming, there is actual science, and then there are the a******s who inject b******t into the national discourse in order to create the illusion of “controversy” where there is none.
This, by the way, is why the Prop 8 proponents got their asses handed to them in court. When they actually have to defend their arguments with facts, they end up looking like morons.
MIcheal, Such a child is not an ungrateful brat, nor is she a bigot if she wants a traditional family. You are in denial if you think there are absolutely no conseqences from the massive social changes you want. While I am on record supporting equal rights for gay marriage in this country, I take issue with the attitude that has zero tolerance for any discussion. I suppose you feel that your views should be so obvious to anyone that you cannot fathom even the slightest nuance of disagreement. Why are you so afraid of discussion?
Have you ever met a kid of a gay family who isn’t paid by the Religious Right? No, I didn’t think so.
There is an internet phrase for people who say “I agree with you, except I’m going to raise all these questions that actually suggest that I don’t, because I’m Just Asking Questions.”
The phrase is “concern troll.”
Bob, I suggest that you stop embarrassing yourself with ignorant and uninformed comments, and go read up on the children of lesbians and gays. See what they have to say about themselves — and their parents.
http://www.colage.org/
Find out what these children think of people like you.
Evan, I know situations are widely diferent for children. I grew up in a broken, disfunctional family myself.
I asked the question because it does bother me that a private group is forced to go against their collective conscience on this matter of adoptions in the U.K. I never said gay couples should not adopt children. I think the Catholics have every right to limit their adoptions to married heterosexual couples. No one has to go through a Catholic agency.
“There is an internet phrase for people who say “I agree with you, except I’m going to raise all these questions that actually suggest that I don’t, because I’m Just Asking Questions.””
Evan, the difference is that I do suuport your legal rights to marry and have children. But I am uncomfortable being scolded for not believing that thousands of years of human culture is just outmoded and bigoted and that I must embrace these new social constructs rather than just tolerate them. I coexist with many things I don’t embrace.
I am sorry if my support for your full legal rights is just not enough.
Unfortunately, Bob, adoption is a public business. If they want to play in a secular arena, even as a religious organization, they have to play by secular rules. If not, they need to politely shove it.
Bob, what would you say to a black child who wishes he had white parents like other kids? What would you say to a kid who wishes his parents were rich like other parents? What would you say to a child who wishes his parents were thin like other parents?
Also, have you met any children of gay and lesbian parents who become aware of their situation and wish they had other parents? Your whole question is just silly.
So Bob are you going to adopt the thousand and thousands of children who will never have any parents because there aren’t enough adoptive parents to go around. Or should they rot in these orphanages because you don’t want them to be adopted by gays. Frankly I am sick of Christians like yourself who would rather see kids suffer to fill some political agenda you have. Way to go trying to ruin more kids lives instead of placing them in loving homes where they might have a chance to better themselves.
What would say to a child who wishes his parents weren’t Catholic?
Bob you said “I grew up in a broken, disfunctional family myself.” Were your parents heterosexual?
“Find out what these children think of people like you”
“Your whole question is just silly.”
“Frankly I am sick of Christians like yourself who would rather see kids suffer to fill some political agenda you have.”
“Bob, what would you say to a black child who wishes he had white parents like other kids?”
“So Bob are you going to adopt the thousand and thousands of children who will never have any parents because there aren’t enough adoptive parents to go around.”
“What would say to a child who wishes his parents weren’t Catholic?”
All, my question was designed to stimulate discussion on the legitimacy of the government to demand the private Catholic Care agency cater to gay couples when the concept of gay marriage is not accepted by the Catholic church but I concede that it was an unecessarily provacative question for this forum. I am not against gay adoptions.
For your information, I already ordered a book “Revolutionary voices : a multicultural queer youth anthology” to broaden my perspective.
I think so…Dad said something weird once when I was a teen. Something abour mesisng around with other boys…
“Bob you said “I grew up in a broken, disfunctional family myself.” Were your parents heterosexual?”
Evan, if that is U.K. law then yes, they must obey it. But if they cease operations it won’t be good for some children.
“Unfortunately, Bob, adoption is a public business. If they want to play in a secular arena, even as a religious organization, they have to play by secular rules. If not, they need to politely shove it.”
Bob, I’m not sure why you would seek to understand mainstream families from reading a book about revolutionary voices. But whatever. You’d be better off learning about ordinary people by communicating with ordinary people.
Micheal, What?? It was you who said “and go read up on the children of lesbians and gays. See what they have to say about themselves — and their parents.
This book summary; “Celebrating the future of gay and lesbian society, Sonnie presents a collection of experiences, ideas, dreams, and fantasies expressed through prose, poetry, artwork, letters, diaries, and performance pieces.”
Sorry about the name misspelled, Michael.
I don’t think the Catholic Church should have anything whatsoever to do with looking after children, looking at the crimes church commits, too revoltong to think about, all over the world.
Michael, I went there. Just before I was going to look in the forum I noticed it said that the lists were closed and any attempt for an adult to even access the forum would results in his email being sent to authorities. If I hadn’t noticed the fine print I might have gotten into legal trouble just looking.
“See what they have to say about themselves — and their parents.
http://www.colage.org/
Find out what these children think of people like you.”
Actually Bob, foster families are very old. And Biblical. In the book of Ruth, Naomi becomes a foster mother to Ruth’s child, even though she has a husband.
It takes a village. Humans have known that for thousands of years now. These new “only mother and father” social constructs can be damaging, especially when a child needs so much attention and care.
and when i say “foster family,” i mean extended family or friends in addition to the nuclear family.
There’s all kinds of families out there. Sometimes they’re made up of people not even related to you by blood.
Emily, no, the village has no say unless there is abuse.
Emily, help and support is one thing as long as the parents are in full control.
Right. the 3 parents. Ruth, Naomi, and Boaz.
“the village has no say unless there is abuse?” zuh??? I’m confused. later.
zuh??? Okay, I’ll back up. Conservatives get jumpy over that “village” phrase, rightly or wrongly, because this is how they hear it “You stupid a*s backward Christians, you can’t handle a family so we, the government are going to have to look over your shoulder and make sure you don’t abuse your kids by say, teaching them religion or bigotry or something …” Of course that is a silly paraphrase but it captures the fear that Christian conservatives have that it is merely a way of claiming more authority over how people run their families.
It may all be fear based over-rection but when liberals say “it takes a village…” conservatives cringe.
Are wingnuts scared of anything that actually exists?
I can’t think of one thing that wingnuts s**t their pants over that actually, verifiably, exists.
You.
So, Bob, having a father and a mother didn’t make your family stable? The truth is, it’s the stability and having parents who actually take concerns to make their children healthy rather than the sex of the parents that’s important. These studies that anti-gay people site saying that children with opposite sex parents are healthier than children with same sex parents don’t exist.
I think so…Dad said something weird once when I was a teen. Something abour mesisng around with other boys…
“Bob you said “I grew up in a broken, disfunctional family myself.” Were your parents heterosexual?”
Daniel, if you believe in equality and not superiority, you should believe that LGBT people are inherently no better at relationships than other people. In the very long run gay marriages will fail at the same rate as any other and LGBT families will have the same struggles.
Bob, I don’t believe I ever said that GLBT people are superior. You’re the one who seemed to think that having same sex parents would be bad for kids.
” In the very long run gay marriages will fail at the same rate as any other and LGBT families will have the same struggles.
”
I suspect you are right, bob. when gay people are completely normalized, they will probably be indistinguishable from straight people.
Except that I don’t think we will ever be completely normalized, not as long as their are religious fundamentalists convinced that their version of reality is the only accurate one, not as long as there are 3-I (insecure, immature, ignorant) straight boys have to prove what men they are, not as long as some people need other people to feel superior to, or to control, or to manipulate for power and monewy.
I think the worst thing for kids to go through is having abusive or alcoholic parents. That is so devastating to a child. And there are millions of families with abusive, alcoholic parents. England has a huge problem with this. It would seem to me that dealing with the instability, fear, dread, and general psychosis of growing up with drunks terrorizing you is a much bigger concern than sex your parent(s) are!
Also, my own observation is that the gay parents I know try harder and are very conscientious and decent–zero sleaze around the kids. The kids tend to be very happy. I have known a few of these families.
Bob, I admire you for keeping at the thread… but one more position I think I can undermine.
After 5 years of gay civil partnerships in the UK, dissolution rate is 0.9% for men and 2.1% for woman. Currently general marriage divorce rate is 3.08 per 1000 marriages. US rate is 4.95/1000 marriages. Of course after only 5 years of civial partnerships there may still be a statistical hump coming through but Denmark gay marriage divorce after a longer period are lower than the UK so that seems consistent. Stats from nationmaster.com
Reasons may be non- involvement in joint parenthood, lower exposure to normative pressure about the necessity of life-long unions as well as differing motivations for getting married.
To my direct knowledge, children with gay parents are realy really wanted and looked after by very protective and aware parents. Not something that can be said for all children born to straight couples. There is some evidence somewhere to support this I think.
Also, the UK Catholic adoption agency are not being forced to go against their conscience. They are being foreced to comply with the law. Its different. If they want to operate within apublic framework and get public money for it, then that is their choice. I could set myself up to arrange private adotpions for people with white skin only… completely illegal no matter what my conscience tells me.
Paul, thanks. On the U.K. adoption matter, the sore of this discussion, it was not clear to me the agency got public money. I assumed it was all private. Yes, that make the difference.
I am not sure what position you think I have that you are trying to undermine..I would expect the numbers to not be consistent at this early stage. I was not out to prove gay marriages would be any different. BTW, Denmark does not have full gay marriage rights. They only allow domestic partnerships.
Daniel, I did not say its bad for kids. I was suggesting that this is a large social change and don’t expect there won’t be issues in the long run.
Neal, yes, however if I were arguing that gay adoption is bad, which I am not, then abusive, alcoholic parents whould remain a separate and important issue but one that is irrelevent to this discussion.
Bob, there are issues for every child. I had to deal with parents who were into their old age when I was born. No one thinks child rearing is easy–and gay people have to think about it far more than heterosexual couples.