Newer and older readers might sometimes wonder why the writers at Truth Wins Out occasionally veer, seemingly, way off the beaten path of gay rights and the lies of the Religious Right. Why do we write about the Park 51 project, Dr. Laura, racism, anti-immigrant hatred, women’s rights and so on?
I’ve always said, for one thing, that discrimination is discrimination, plain and simple, and that moreover, the people who would discriminate against LGBT people tend to be the exact same people who hate Mexican immigrants the most, who use the most coded language to express their distaste for all but their very favorite (read: Republican) blacks, etc. There’s an overlap because we’re not dealing with rational people with rational opinions to add to the debate. Fevered hatred of Mexican immigrants isn’t a well-thought out position; it’s a gut reaction based on fear. And so it is with anti-gay bias. These days, there is simply too much education, too much information out there, for people to arrive at a distaste for gay people via any intellectual method.
Along those lines, I was impressed with this post from Betty Cracker over at Rumproast (as I usually am with her posts), which goes a long way to explain, politically, what kind of time we’re living in:
The attempt to establish a Muslimfrei zone around Ground Zero isn’t about 9/11. The wingnut solicitude for “Dr.” Laura’s supposedly lost First Amendment rights isn’t about “Dr.” Laura’s right to repeat racial slurs on the radio.
Fox News’ relentless pimping of the New Black Panther Party non-story isn’t about voter intimidation. Arizona’s anti-immigration law isn’t about illegal immigration. Breitbart’s Shirley Sherrod smear wasn’t about “reverse racism.”
The persistent suggestions from multiple quarters on the right that President Obama isn’t a Christian or an American aren’t about his religion or nationality. And the Prop 8 campaign wasn’t about protecting straight marriage.
What this is all really about is the most orchestrated, widespread attempt to divide this country since George Wallace’s presidential run. Scratch that—Wallace was never more than a regional candidate. This may be unprecedented in living memory.
She then links to a piece from Will Bunch which takes that theme even further, and which deserves to be read in its entirety:
American political debate — in a time of crushing 9.5-percent unemployment, record foreclosures and bankruptcies, and climate change linked to catastrophes from Moscow to Pakistan to Iowa — has been hijacked over the arcane question of whether to allow an Islamic cultural center in lower Manhattan. The controversy is stunning — but it should not be. The national brouhaha over the $100 million Muslim Park51/Cordoba House proposal is not an anomaly but rather the culmimation of an alarming downturn in America’s mood, its discourse, and even our former ambitions as a beacon of religious and political tolerance. In 2010, a large swath of the American public — led by ratings-mad media mavens and immoral politicians like Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin — had declared out all-out war on “the Other” in America in all its alleged forms, from immigrants to Muslims to non-white aides working in the West Wing of the White House and of course the president himself.
And it is threatening to rip America apart in a way that we have not seen in 145 years.
[...]
America, we are in for the bumpy political ride of a lifetime. It will take enormous courage for defenders of two centuries of religious freedom and tolerance toward both religious and economic refugees to stand firm in the face of the kind of raw public anger and emotion that have caused backbone-impaired politicians like Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid or supposed progressive stalwart Howard Dean to wither in mere days. Our determined minority may be barely clinging to our cherished traditions — as best expressed by President George Washington in 1790 when he wrote “the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection, should demean themselves as good citizens” — in the face of this onslaught for the next few years.
Let’s face it: This country has long had its Know-Nothings and its Birchers and its McCarthyites, but it never had gizmos like Fox News or Sarah Palin’s Twitter feed to fuel toxic ideas so far so fast. It’s time we admit these seemingly disconnected battles over “anchor babies, mosques, and a black man in the Oval Office are all part of the same war against “the Other,” and that we are in the fight of a lifetime.
And that, in a few concise paragraphs from two Very Smart People who you all should be reading anyway, is why we at Truth Wins Out are talking about these things. The people who fight against gay people are rebelling against The Other everywhere they see it these days. When Maggie Gallagher and her friends talk about “traditional marriage,” there is a whole lot of baggage besides “one man/one woman” tied up in there. While I’m not saying that every one of them is actively racist or xenophobic (some are), the “I want my country back!” nonsense of their fight for “traditional marriage” is a desire to return to a time when men were the breadwinners and had veto power over everything, the women were legally powerless, raising children was expected rather than voluntary, and all the neighbors were white and spoke American English. They want to return to a time when everyone “knew their place,” and for white Christian men, that means that everyone else knows that they are the Supreme Penis Gods of whatever homesteads/neighborhoods/Wal-Mart Supercenters they happen to inhabit, and that everyone else maintains their appropriate places, behind whichever Penis God they’ve been assigned to.
It sounds funny, but think about it.
This, by the way, is why the Religious Right is having a fully formed cow about the painfully obvious points Judge Walker raised in his Prop 8 opinion on the subject of gender. He said, in so many words, that because gender is no longer an essential component in determining the status of partners in marriage, it’s supremely irrational to deny marriage rights based on gender. To anyone with half a brain and a spine, this should be obvious. Married men and women are, whether or not they like it, and whether or not they live it out, equal partners under the law, and have been for a while now. Christian Rightists do not like that, though! The existence of gay and lesbian couples who are married doesn’t change anything for them, except to force them to acknowledge that their time of lording their beliefs over society legally is over and done with.
We’re better for it, too, just like the fact that our nation will be majority-minority by 2050 will make us a better, stronger, smarter nation, closer to achieving the ideal of the American Dream. But our detractors don’t see it that way, do they?
So, again, that is why we talk about all that stuff. Hope that clears things up.
[h/t to The Poor Man Institute, too, also]










Islam in Europe – From the New Times in 2006: Moderate Europeans losing faith in Islam – Europe – International Herald Tribune
Why would we want to import this into the U.S.? The worst elements of a few cultures are so heinous that I don’t think it’s unreasonable to reject them in their entirety.
That’s my concern of what could happen in the US also Richard.
This just smells of Islamophobia, seriously.
I mean, I’m ignorant about a lot of things, but this doesn’t make sense to me at all. I don’t understand why a marginalized group would turn around and marginalize another group. People hate me because I’m trans, so why would I want to do the same to another group? Muslims — even American-born muslims — are treated like s**t in this country. Genuine s**t, not the ‘waaah waaah people are calling out my bigotry’ type of s**t that Christians get.
I don’t understand.
It’s not a phobia when fears are based on uncomfortable facts. We do have these problems already in the UK, makyui. Here is what a marginalized group threatens to do in the name of god, and why all the cash-flow associated with Park 51 needs to be transparent:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undercover_Mosque
Is this extremism a fringe? There really needs to be a mvement whithin the muslim community showing anger against these people, but we never hear them enough.
I agree with Bulldog that the financing (should it ever occur) must be public.
But so should the financing of the opposition.
As for the failure of Euro Muslims to assimilate — that hasn’t happened in the States, where to be fair, the failure of extremist Christians to assimilate is the actual threat. There are steps that we can all take to ensure that conservative Christians and Muslims assimilate.
Mike, I would agree that the European situation is very different from the American situation as regards Muslim immigrants.
Bob said “Paul, the Tea Party people are not the anti-gay people. They were not the Prop 8 supporters.”
That’s not true, a university of Washington poll proved otherwise, Tea Party people are VERY anti-gay:
http://michiganmessenger.com/36668/straight-pride-shirts-at-tea-party-rally-draw-fire
“White Tea Party supporters also hold negative attitudes. Only 36 percent think gay and lesbian couples should be allowed to adopt children, and just 17 percent are in favor of same-sex marriage.”
As for the WTC being “hallowed ground” —
1. The Pentagon is not hallowed ground despite the deaths of more than 100 people on 9/11. Muslims come and go there freely, as people of any or no faith should.
1. The World Trade Center is an ugly, noisy, dirty pit in the earth, surrounded by half-vacant office buildings, strip bars, and Muslim immigrants operating food carts for tourists. No human remains are anywhere in the vicinity. If the site is hallowed, then why is it being redeveloped into more commercial skyscrapers with junk-food stands?
When World Trade Center reconstruction ends, Muslims will come and go there freely, as people of any or no faith should. And somewhere in the new One World Trade Center tower, some foreign bank will surely house an interfaith workplace chapel where workers can bow toward Mecca during the day. Or are we now banning foreign companies generally, and Arab ones in particular, from lower Manhattan?
2. Staten Island is where any tiny atomized traces of human remains are buried. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freshkills_Park#West_Park Are we going to ban Muslims from the planned Freshkills park and memorial site, I suppose?
3. The survivors and families of the World Trade Center collapse don’t own lower Manhattan. If they want to buy $100 billion worth of property, make it private, and ban Muslims, let’s see them try. Until then, they have no right or jurisdiction of any kind over lower Manhattan.
These days if you see a choking victim in a restaurant you don’t use the Heimlich Maneuver; you rush them out the door so there is no risk of the victim dying in the eatery, thus turning it into “hallowed ground.”
All across the USA people seem to think they have the right to erect sorry-looking memorials alongside roads or just about anywhere where some loved one died. Apparently nobody explained to them what a cemetery is.
Evan,
What are the factors that you think have made the situation different in Europe? Is it only the fact that there is a much higher percentage Muslim population in Europe, so they haven’t had to assimilate? Are there other reasons?
That’s a big part of it, Jack, I think. In a lot of ways, Europe hasn’t taken to their influx of immigrants very well (not that the US has, vis a vis Mexicans), but since the US is, by its nature, more of The Melting Pot, we tend to approach these things differently.
The US is different because we have a lot of space. And we have abundant natural resources. So, people have room and are not fighting over the same piece of pie. This has eased tensions for more than 200 years.
Let’s take the Mormons. They were killed in Misouri. They went west. Presto, space was created.
Evan, in your opinion, does the gay community in Europe have anything to fear from the growing Muslim population?
Yeah, and our space is a blessing and a curse.
I was talking to a girl last night at a bar who’s from the Northeast, and we were discussing racism, and how, in the area where she’s from, there’s virtually no racism, but they also don’t have many minorities — and the ones that are there are very much cut from the same, small liberal arts college-going cloth. So when she came down South, she was shocked at the racism she encountered, but also found it sort of jarring because she actually encountered that tension that exists when you have, for instance, abject poverty, racial tension on all sides, etc. Short version: it’s very easy to be Not Racist where she’s from. Likewise, people all over the country are buying into the garbage Jan Brewer and other Arizona legislators are spewing because really, if Fox News says there are Mexican cartels taking over Southern Arizona, it’s so far away for all but those who live in the region that there’s no competing frame of reference.
Likewise with this mosque-that’s-not-a-mosque-at-ground-zero-that’s-not-at-ground-zero. To hear it reported on the news, you’d think bin Laden himself was building a statue of himself smack in the middle of the WTC site, and without a frame of reference, without a familiarity with the neighborhood or the people, it’s easy to see why a person in Alabama might get the complete wrong idea.
Jack…I don’t know that I’m the one to answer that question, since I don’t live in Western Europe. Where’s Adrian Tippetts? ADRIAN! We need you to answer a question, plz. Somebody go find him.
Wayne, I have to question the notion that “The US is different because we have a lot of space.”
I doubt that the problems we have now with the radical Christian Right would be any greater if we had less space. In general, the areas of the U.S. with the highest population densities are also the most socially liberal, as I understand. It seems that, the lower the population density, the higher the social conservatism. Am I missing something?
To Jack,
yes the LGBT community has many problems with viscious homophobia because of an immigrant community that has not been integrated at all – some areas (e.g. Shoreditch, in the London borough of Tower Hamlets) have seen many attacks on gay people by Bengali thugs roaming the streets.
In the Netherlands, gay people experience huge problems from Moroccan youths.
The problem is that an underclass of immigrants have brought with them tribal customs, and nobody has dared to challenged them on attitudes to women, gays, sexuality, and so on. Until very recently it was easy for men to marry some young girl from the country of origin who knew no english, and nothing about the rights she was entitled to.
In the UK there are over 80 Sharia courts, which have legal juristiction on issues like inheritance (not criminal matters).
Faith schools are opening all over the place – many muslim scholols teaching creationism, and much evidence for funding from wahabbi saudis, importing extremely dangerous anti semitic, anti non muslim textbooks – . Loads of mosques found preaching hate, with arabic speaking imams with no idea about the rights and values of people in europe. satellite TV channels importing similar hate speech into peoples homes.
(copying the Christian Right’s attack on democracy in every way)
The National Secular Society (www.secularism.org) does much to campaign against this, as does Maryam Namazie (committee of ex-muslims). A few liberal / secular muslims are beginning to speak up too.
I warn liberals not to be too respectful of beliefs – show respect first and foremost to human rights.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s essential book on this matter ‘Nomad’ explains in detail all the problems that have been caused by euoopean goivernments unwillingness to integrate immigrant communities – a time bomb waiting to go off. Do not make the same mistakes. She lives under armed guard in Washington, since she renounced her religion.
Still, you can say all that, allow the mosque, and hold your hand out to people of different faiths so long as they respect freedom FROM as well as OF belief, as enshrined in the Virginia Statute and 1st Amendment. Don’t make the terrible mistake of confusing religion with race – it is absurd to make out that it is racist to be critical of religion as well.
Great Post thanks for drawing our attention Ev, mel
Richard:
The population densities of these cities are a result of educated and liberal people congregating in creative hubs.
The space in the US — combined with our democratic political system — has allowed people who are ultra-conservative to move to the exurbs, thus diffusing tension.
So, population densities of cities, in my view would not upset my theory.
Adrian T. is correct. We have no mandate as liberals to blindly accept hateful beliefs. (only the First Amendment right for people to hold and express such beliefs)
We should criticize them and isolate them until they are seen as noxious and fringe.
However, we must be consistent and speak out against intolerance from ALL religions. And, when there is a tolerant or moderate form of religious thought, we should ensure it is not lumped in with fundamentalism.
The great coalition of the next century will be the increasing number of non-believers and moderate people of faith who will team up to fight religious totalitarianism in all its ugly forms and support open societies.
“Don’t make the terrible mistake of confusing religion with race – it is absurd to make out that it is racist to be critical of religion as well.”
“Adrian T. is correct. We have no mandate as liberals to blindly accept hateful beliefs.”
I certainly have no problem there.
What I have a problem with is that it seems like muslims are getting treated differently, though, and often unfairly. As horrid as fundamentalist Christians are, no one is telling them that they aren’t allowed to put churches up in (already legally zoned for such) places, nor are Christian churches automatically assumed to be hidey holes for clinic bombers and militia groups, even though both obviously exist.
And it doesn’t help that, while I don’t think anyone here is doing it, a lot of people are treating it like a race, so that they can spew out hateful s**t to muslims that may or may not be American-born.
This talk that the presence of, as it was put, a mosque-that-isn’t-a-mosque anywhere near Ground Zero is offensive and unwelcome implies that the presence of muslims is offensive and unwelcome, which just puts the message out to any muslims in the area that they’re icky, skuzzy people and, well, unwelcome, just because they’re muslims.
I can kinda relate to that, you know?
Makyui….that is exactly right. In this instance Muslims are unfairly being singled out and held to a different standard. It is wrong.
That’s why the incessant questions about how the Park51 people feel about gay people strike me as misplaced…we know that they’re moderate to liberal in other areas, so it’s probably a good guess that they’re not supporting the stoning of gays in Iran, and even if they’re not all the way there on LGBT equality yet, well, hell, a lot of mainline Methodists aren’t either, but yet it seems like some gays are using that as an excuse to join in the piling on.
Adrian,
not a correct impression that Sharia courts have a legal jurisdiction in the UK. They operate under an arbitration system where parties agree to be bound by decisions. That agreement has some legal weight. However, nothing can be agreed that counteracts the law of the land.
I share your concerns about Faith schools.
Bob, in the UK gays cannot marry. But civil partnerships were constructed to competely mirror marriage and also tax and adoption laws were changed to align with marriage. Hence separate but equal. They are not Civil Unions such as in France or germany or recently Ireland with limitations in tax adoption etc. The UK should have opened Civil Partnership law to opposite sex couples as well and made it equal. Civil Partnerships are what modern Marriage should be. No ceremony is mandated for those that prefer that. Dissolution is on the basis of irreconciable differences, not a question of sexual infidelity. Only full equality is acceptable of course, but I would not choose Marriage over Civil Partnership myself for example.
Re: “I suspect that a mosque full of average Muslims would make the American Family Association look like Liberals. Why should we welcome that into the U.S.” and similar – its a legitimate point and I don’t think Evan or any other liberal contributors have dealt with this at all well.
I studied chemistry alongside a lot of (Malyasian and Indonesian) muslim students for years (in New Zealand). They were very pleasant to work with, but their widespread belief in political Islam was eerie.
Thats the crux of it – Islam is politicised in a way that other religions aren’t. And becoming more so.
*And empirical evidence clearly supports it.*
I think that we can take for granted that Islam, as practised in he Middle East, IS repressive. And outside the Middle East? In the subcontinent (Pakistan, Bangladesh), islam is becoming a radicalised political force, no question. Islam in Turkey, Indonesia and Malaysia is growing steadily more politicised, with wider implementation of sharia law, legal obstacles to the practise of other religions, etc etc etc. Look at news articles from the last 5 years about the political influence of islam in these countries and tell me im wrong.
Hint: look at wiki as a starting point if you dont believe it (try articles like ‘Islam in Turkey’ etc) My own sources are mainly articles I read esp since 2005 in the guardian, the times, and funnily enough NGM since 2009 when it acquired a taste for stories about islam.
Put together the Middle East, Pakistan, Turkey, Indonesia and Malaysia, in all of which Islam is completely ingrained throughout politics or becoming more and more so, and you need to ask if there are actually any decent counterexamples to the trend of islam becoming ingrained in national politics in an unpleasant, repressive way.
In what country is islam modernising or liberalising?
In what country where islam makes up a meaningful %age of the population is it modernising or liberalising?
I doubt the combined population of these countries will be large.
Should people hate on muslims? NO!
But, is Islam inherently political in a way that other religions arent?
Like it or not, the correct answer is YES.
Compare it to christianity – does some/much of the religious right wading deeper and deeper into politics: probably. Is the *average* christian becoming less or more politicised? Probably slightly less, if anything. Especially outside of the US, practising christians in the west have accepted secular pluralism pretty gracefully and mainly partcipate in politics by running pretty middle of the road centre-right parties, a la in Germany, or more commonly, dont have political parties of their own or even much influence on the major political parties. I’m generalising across western and eastern europe, canada, the uk, australia and new zealand. Latin America becomes more liberal all the time. Assuming equivalence between islam and christianity, or the political charcteristics of the two religions is intellectually lazy.
My challenge to liberals, to be answered with evidence or at least reference to it:
1) Show that *on average*, islam is modernising or even staying the same rather than becoming a repressive politicised force.
2) Justify assuming equivalence of Islam and Christianity with reference to the *average* Muslim or Christian.
Kind regards,
Sean