Newer and older readers might sometimes wonder why the writers at Truth Wins Out occasionally veer, seemingly, way off the beaten path of gay rights and the lies of the Religious Right. Why do we write about the Park 51 project, Dr. Laura, racism, anti-immigrant hatred, women’s rights and so on?
I’ve always said, for one thing, that discrimination is discrimination, plain and simple, and that moreover, the people who would discriminate against LGBT people tend to be the exact same people who hate Mexican immigrants the most, who use the most coded language to express their distaste for all but their very favorite (read: Republican) blacks, etc. There’s an overlap because we’re not dealing with rational people with rational opinions to add to the debate. Fevered hatred of Mexican immigrants isn’t a well-thought out position; it’s a gut reaction based on fear. And so it is with anti-gay bias. These days, there is simply too much education, too much information out there, for people to arrive at a distaste for gay people via any intellectual method.
Along those lines, I was impressed with this post from Betty Cracker over at Rumproast (as I usually am with her posts), which goes a long way to explain, politically, what kind of time we’re living in:
The attempt to establish a Muslimfrei zone around Ground Zero isn’t about 9/11. The wingnut solicitude for “Dr.” Laura’s supposedly lost First Amendment rights isn’t about “Dr.” Laura’s right to repeat racial slurs on the radio.
Fox News’ relentless pimping of the New Black Panther Party non-story isn’t about voter intimidation. Arizona’s anti-immigration law isn’t about illegal immigration. Breitbart’s Shirley Sherrod smear wasn’t about “reverse racism.”
The persistent suggestions from multiple quarters on the right that President Obama isn’t a Christian or an American aren’t about his religion or nationality. And the Prop 8 campaign wasn’t about protecting straight marriage.
What this is all really about is the most orchestrated, widespread attempt to divide this country since George Wallace’s presidential run. Scratch that—Wallace was never more than a regional candidate. This may be unprecedented in living memory.
She then links to a piece from Will Bunch which takes that theme even further, and which deserves to be read in its entirety:
American political debate — in a time of crushing 9.5-percent unemployment, record foreclosures and bankruptcies, and climate change linked to catastrophes from Moscow to Pakistan to Iowa — has been hijacked over the arcane question of whether to allow an Islamic cultural center in lower Manhattan. The controversy is stunning — but it should not be. The national brouhaha over the $100 million Muslim Park51/Cordoba House proposal is not an anomaly but rather the culmimation of an alarming downturn in America’s mood, its discourse, and even our former ambitions as a beacon of religious and political tolerance. In 2010, a large swath of the American public — led by ratings-mad media mavens and immoral politicians like Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin — had declared out all-out war on “the Other” in America in all its alleged forms, from immigrants to Muslims to non-white aides working in the West Wing of the White House and of course the president himself.
And it is threatening to rip America apart in a way that we have not seen in 145 years.
[...]
America, we are in for the bumpy political ride of a lifetime. It will take enormous courage for defenders of two centuries of religious freedom and tolerance toward both religious and economic refugees to stand firm in the face of the kind of raw public anger and emotion that have caused backbone-impaired politicians like Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid or supposed progressive stalwart Howard Dean to wither in mere days. Our determined minority may be barely clinging to our cherished traditions — as best expressed by President George Washington in 1790 when he wrote “the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection, should demean themselves as good citizens” — in the face of this onslaught for the next few years.
Let’s face it: This country has long had its Know-Nothings and its Birchers and its McCarthyites, but it never had gizmos like Fox News or Sarah Palin’s Twitter feed to fuel toxic ideas so far so fast. It’s time we admit these seemingly disconnected battles over “anchor babies, mosques, and a black man in the Oval Office are all part of the same war against “the Other,” and that we are in the fight of a lifetime.
And that, in a few concise paragraphs from two Very Smart People who you all should be reading anyway, is why we at Truth Wins Out are talking about these things. The people who fight against gay people are rebelling against The Other everywhere they see it these days. When Maggie Gallagher and her friends talk about “traditional marriage,” there is a whole lot of baggage besides “one man/one woman” tied up in there. While I’m not saying that every one of them is actively racist or xenophobic (some are), the “I want my country back!” nonsense of their fight for “traditional marriage” is a desire to return to a time when men were the breadwinners and had veto power over everything, the women were legally powerless, raising children was expected rather than voluntary, and all the neighbors were white and spoke American English. They want to return to a time when everyone “knew their place,” and for white Christian men, that means that everyone else knows that they are the Supreme Penis Gods of whatever homesteads/neighborhoods/Wal-Mart Supercenters they happen to inhabit, and that everyone else maintains their appropriate places, behind whichever Penis God they’ve been assigned to.
It sounds funny, but think about it.
This, by the way, is why the Religious Right is having a fully formed cow about the painfully obvious points Judge Walker raised in his Prop 8 opinion on the subject of gender. He said, in so many words, that because gender is no longer an essential component in determining the status of partners in marriage, it’s supremely irrational to deny marriage rights based on gender. To anyone with half a brain and a spine, this should be obvious. Married men and women are, whether or not they like it, and whether or not they live it out, equal partners under the law, and have been for a while now. Christian Rightists do not like that, though! The existence of gay and lesbian couples who are married doesn’t change anything for them, except to force them to acknowledge that their time of lording their beliefs over society legally is over and done with.
We’re better for it, too, just like the fact that our nation will be majority-minority by 2050 will make us a better, stronger, smarter nation, closer to achieving the ideal of the American Dream. But our detractors don’t see it that way, do they?
So, again, that is why we talk about all that stuff. Hope that clears things up.
[h/t to The Poor Man Institute, too, also]










Great post and re-post.
As I sit here in the UK I can say it is a very long time ago that any mention of the USA was redolent with freedom, minority rights, ‘progress’.
It is with a sense of real despair that we read about the inch by inch fight for gay rights in teh US, a place that should be leading the fight for gay rights abroad, in the UN, in places of darkness where oppression is literally a question of life or death.
My goodness, what happened.
One difference is in the pernicious effect of the media and it is interesting to compare and contrast that in the US with the UK in teh last 20 years.
We once had a rabid, homophobic tabloid press who openly persecuted gay people. They were and are able to cow politicans afraid of their readshership turning against them. Even Tony Blair – although he actly bravely in pushing through a raft gay rights and liberalisations since 1997.
Our tabloid press had no legal or institutional requirement to provide balanced and fact-checked reporting. Slowly though, they realised, during the last 15 years I’d say, that there were no additional sales in open homophobia (though it remains beneath the surface in some ways).
But we DID have public regulation of TV and radio – who were legally required to provide balance and were held to that by quasi-NGO body. At the same time we had declining church attendance and influence.
In the US, by contrast, you have the different situation of TV and radio being allowed to set their own standards of reporting and so amongst balanced media, you have Fox News and the network of shock jocks. Their influence has been insidious and pernicious in setting this vile climate of outrage and defamation of The Other. Over 20 years, the old Moral Majority of the Reagan era that seems moderate in retrospect, perhaps kept in check by the GOP, has become a roaring self-delusionly vile wounded beast.
It is strikes out in fear – a fear we can lay at the door of Fox and the Limbaughs and the Coulters and the Dr Laura’s – it’s shameful what they say about gay people. The GOP won’t or can’t hold back this beast.
And the US is unique in all of the western democracies in the level of chruch attendance.
This potent mix of religious fervour and a rabid right-wing TV/radio media sector is critical. They will always shout more loudly and be more blatant in their inflamatory reporting and this special audience laps it all up. In the culture war these are powerful weapons.
Your only hope is a changing demographic. And also a certain weariness on their part. They hold their cultural beliefs self-deludedly whereas the ‘Other’ are passionate, authentic and in it for the very very very long haul, and, over time, are able to show that they are not the ‘Other’ but part of the same common humanity.
The Teabaggers cannot sustain – their outrage will be outlived by the authentic, every day lives and contributions of decent LBGT, Muslims, immigrants (you’re pretty much all immigrants after all?!) to the common good and optimstic joint enterprise that is the ability of the USA to engender.
Wayne has already predicted tipping point is here. It is only when you look back at this point in 2-5 yrs will that seem to have been a great call.
Sorry for the long post, something on my mind for a while.
Couldn’t we add a great deal of organized Islam to “the people who would discriminate against LGBT people.” I think you might be doing a bit of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend.” Notice I said “organized Islam.” I have several friends of Islamic heritage that are very liberal.
Yes, Jack, you’re very correct, and this is where we get into the realm of nuance. Not every issue is capable of being reasonably reduced to whether a person is for or against gay rights. Throughout the world, there are many different cultures, many which, to be sure, are solidly against LGBT people. Those situations have to be treated where they are, rather than where we are as Americans or Europeans. Moreover, many Muslims in the United States are a-okay with gay rights, just like many Christians are. Similarly, many Christians in the US are bigots, and the same can be said for fundamentalist elements of Islam and Judaism in the US.
The idea of “gays shouldn’t support Muslims because they hate gays” is a Right Wing narrative meant to divide. The part they leave out is “We hate them both so let’s try to make them fight.”
Our engagement with the Islamic world, for lack of a better phrase, has to be about encouraging people who are more moderate, more radical (in a good way), even if they’re not completely there yet on LGBT issues, because they’re better than the alternative. Likewise, the best foreign policy doesn’t tend to come from a malignant and brainless Bill Kristol-esque “bomb them all” strategy. Iran is AWFUL to gays. Should we invade Iran? HELL no. There are reformers within that country, among the younger, educated classes, and the quickest way to make them start loving the Ayatollahs again would be to start dropping bombs on Tehran.
But encouraging moderate and liberal elements of Islam is a key part of why I support the right of the people behind the Park51 project to build whatever the hell they want, wherever they want. I don’t know that they’re totally awesome on gay rights, but I do know that their imam follows a kind of Islam which has little use for radical preaching against “infidels” and is, indeed, very Americanized. These people have been living in lower Manhattan for years, and I’m going to guess they’ve encountered quite a few gays during that time, and it hasn’t Set Them Off. I think it’s okay, really. [In fact, I have a close friend who just moved out of Lower Manhattan, and he's gay as hell. He's offered no reports of Muslims declaring jihad on him during that time.]
So, like I said, it’s all about nuance. Don’t buy into the Right Wing tactics of division.
I’m reading all of this, Evan, but I’m definitely not there yet where Islam is concerned. My view is that Christianity is bad enough, but Islam is much, much worse. Very much worse. I see Islam as a uniquely insidious belief system.
While I welcome immigrants of other religions to the U.S. (in part to help dilute the Christian majority), I feel there should be severe restrictions on the immigration of Muslims. BUT, Muslims who are U.S. citizens or are otherwise here legally, MUST receive all the rights and protections accorded by the Constitution, and that includes building Mosques.
As long as Islam maintains a vast network of terrorist-enablers, and breeds some people eager to suicide-bomb for the promise of a romp with 72 virgins*, I don’t expect to have a change of heart. But I’m willing to listen.
I suspect that a mosque full of average Muslims would make the American Family Association look like Liberals. Why should we welcome that into the U.S.
——————
*I don’t know what to make of the female suicide bombers, except to wonder if they are hoping for some hot lesbian action with those 72 virgins.
Paul, the Tea Party people are not the anti-gay people. They were not the Prop 8 supporters.
Even our FOX news is infinitely more fair than the rabid political rags which pass for newspapers in the U.K.
And please don’t lecture us about going to church when your whole country is legally run by the Church of England and the Queen.
Oh, and by the way, you don’t even have full marriage equality anyway. So stop with the moral superiority crap.
I don’t buy it, Richard. As an atheist, I see all religious belief as equally batty. As Amanda Marcotte put it the other day:
I would add that Christianity only seems better because:
A. It’s the predominant religion in the nation where we are.
B. The United States and Europe have had the benefit of the Enlightenment and modernity. Before those influences started to moderate Christianity, it was every bit as irrational and violent as some parts of Islam are now.
So how do we change that? By encouraging moderate, Americanized Muslims to have a greater influence on other Muslims! We do that by walking our talk of “We are not at war with Islam,” which George W. Bush said over and over and over again. There was always a suspicion that he was kidding, but we should NOT be at war with Islam.
If we place “severe restrictions” on immigration for Muslims, you might as well s**t on everything this country was founded upon, as well as everything we purported stand for today. You also betray a lack of faith in those very ideals which make this “America.”
You said:
Likewise, as long as Christianity continues to breed people who bomb abortion clinics and murder gay kids…
It’s the same.
I suspect that you haven’t had much contact with average, Americanized Muslims. I have. Not only do “I have a Muslim friend,” I have CLOSE Muslim friends.
It disturbs me how much right-wing frameworks have crept in, even with liberals.
And Bob, the Tea Party people have a hell of a lot of overlap with the anti-gay people. Believing otherwise is foolishness.
And actually, Paul is more correct about the UK press than you are, Bob. There are tabloid-y elements, most prominently the one owned by the same guy who owns Fox News *cough*, but when you put their best papers up against ours, theirs win, by a landslide.
Granted they may attract some of the same folks but the Tea party is *trying* to be about the economy.
Oh, just to be clear, I am not in the Tea Party.
Yes, but the Pretend Thing that we’re supposed to believe is that the Teabaggers are a new group of people. They’re just the same old Republicans, screaming about something different at the moment.
Ah, yes, out of power Republican has beens *are* trying to take control (Dick Armey) but there are a lot of grass roots first timers in the ranks.
Ginned up by Dick Armey…
Again, the idea that the Teabaggers are some new phenomenon is a myth.
They’ve always been there, and they’ve been voting Republican the whole time. They’re hysterical because, hello, Barack Obama. He’s done all sorts of imaginary things to them, with his scary black man magic.
Evan,
I can see where you are coming from on many of your points, but I still believe that a growing Muslim influence in the US would be bad for GLBT issues. Simply diluting gay-hating conservative Christians with gay-hating conservative Muslims wouldn’t help much and would probably make things worse. I have a libertarian, not liberal bent. My feeling is live and let live. I don’t have any problem with people choosing to follow Islam and practice their faith. That choice is their right. But I also demand that right for myself, and to be completely honest, I feel that a large majority of practicing Muslims would want to restrict my choices if given the chance. With regards to the Park 51 project, I feel that the location is legally defensible in every way but unnecessarily provocative. If these are truly moderates who only want dialogue, why aren’t they showing the sensitivity that we rightly demand of others? You do make points that are valid and thought provoking, but those are my honest gut reactions. I will also add that I am not terribly educated on the players in Park 51, so I might change my mind and have a more positive attitude with more information. I’ve tried to do some research, but have had a difficult time finding unbiased information about the people planning this.
What do you mean, Growing Muslim Influence?
As if somehow Shari’a law is so powerful that our judicial system will crack under the pressure?!
All of this moaning about the mosque project being provocative or anything else is just playing into Osama bin Laden’s hands, and I imagine that, if he’s still alive, he’s laughing his a*s off right now at those Stupid Americans who so eagerly perform every task in his playbook.
AND: You really do need to educate yourself on the players involved in Park51. Who they are and what they do are part of why I feel so strongly about this.
Wow, I didn’t expect that kind of response to a discussion, and if you want a snarky argument, I’ll give you one.
Why don’t you educate me then, since you are the one publicly supporting the mosque on your blog. What are the backer’s views on GLBT issues? Will the specific people behind this community center/mosque support us when we fight for marriage equality, etc.? If the monetary support for this community center/mosque comes from Iran or Saudi Arabia (countries that would kill us) is that ok with you? Please answer these three questions in a straightforward manner since you are informed, and I am not.
… And I mean that if Islam were to ever get a strong foothold in our nation, I think it would be bad for our GLBT community. I wish that weren’t true, but I also wish a unicorn would fly down and take me to the county fair and buy me cotton candy. Your use of the term “nuances” just seems to be a way to give Islam a pass that you would never give Christianity. Let’s discuss the “nuances” of Pat Robertson. After all, he’s just a product of his upbringing and community, right? Let’s not be quick to judge him as an enemy of our GLBT community, right? We both know that’s crap, but let’s not have a double standard.
You obviously haven’t been reading me very long if you didn’t expect snarky. ;-)
But we’ve discussed who the leaders are on this blog. Just keep scrolling through the past week. There are about four posts on this subject.
And no, nuance is not a pass. Nuance is reality. Nothing is black and white. Nothing is simple. We’re trained in this country to be dumb, to view issues as “easy.” There are very, very few issues which are actually easy.
No one is apologizing for the anti-gay views that are pervasive in the Islamic world. But it is useful to understand that there is a difference between people who have never been taught any differently, never been exposed to Western enlightenment ideals, like, say, Iranians, and Pat Robertson, who lives and gets fat off of the secular society known as the US of A. Yes, they do deserve to be approached differently.
I’ve read your posts. Do you answer my three questions in those posts? Remember, I’m the ignorant buffoon, so maybe I missed it. But those questions are very important to me. I think they should be to you also.
Dude, no one said you’re a buffoon.
Okay, your three questions, answered in two points:
1. We don’t have much to speak of on the record about their thoughts on LGBT issues. However, as I’ve said many, many times, and I will say many more, not every issue is easily reduced to where the parties stand on gay rights, ESPECIALLY when you’re dealing with issues related to America’s stance toward say, the Islamic world. What we do know is that the leaders of this group believe in equal rights for women, that they advocate nonviolence, that they advocate for an Americanized version of Islam which is tolerant of those around them, that they’ve been used by both the present and the immediate past administration as envoys to the Islamic world, and that the Muslims who would be using the center have been living in lower Manhattan for decades, alongside gays and Jews, and that there hasn’t been a problem. We know, moreover, that these Muslims were victims on 9/11, just like all the rest of New York. It happened in their neighborhood. We also know that the imam is from a sect of Islam, Sufism, which is considered infidel and enemy by bin Laden and the Wahhabist clerics who preach that style of Islam.
Different issues call for different approaches, and whether you like it or not, Muslims will continue to immigrate to the United States. It’s much more important to encourage the liberal and moderate elements, and if they’re not all the way there on gay rights, then add them to the same freaking conversation we have with the rest of the American people. This idea that Muslims are some unreachable people who are 100% hellbent on our destruction has got to stop.
2. If support comes from Saudi Arabia and that’s a problem, then we’d better boycott Fox News and a million other things as well. That said, I haven’t seen much Actual Evidence that they’re getting their money from Iran and Saudi Arabia. In fact, they’re trying to raise their money domestically. The idea that their money is tied to Foreign Terrorists, though, is a constant trope pulled out by the right wing noise machine, whether or not they EVER have any evidence of it.
I think we should strongly and forcefully denounce anti-gay views anywhere that we find them, whether in the US, Uganda, Saudi Arabia, or Iran. Can we agree on that?
Iranians are sophisticated people many of whom have studied abroad and especially in the US. Many current leaders were students in US universities who both helped foment the Revolution and actively joined it. They know Western society and Enlightenment values. Yet they, unlike Pat Robertson, send gangs of armed thugs (the Army of the Guardians of the Islamic Revolution) into the streets to beat up people for minor religious infractions. Gays they would execute if caught.
Sure! But this is the nuance I’m talking about. If they have problems with gay rights, but are moderate on other issues, then I’d rather have them at the table as a part of American society, where they can be reasoned with as Americans with the same rights as everybody else, rather than being ostracized and sending a message to the Islamic world that America’s commitment to freedom and tolerance is just a bunch of empty words.
Bob, you’re not impressing me as an expert on Iran.
In some ways, Iran is similar to the United States. There’s more education in the cities and among the younger people. There’s a rural element which is uneducated and bigoted. Sort of like their version of our rednecks. Their Army of the Guardians of the Islamic Revolution is quite distinct from their more moderate reform movement.
However, it’s still a very controlled society, and the government keeps a lot of information from the outside world from reaching them.
As I said, each situation requires a different approach.
But the whole “They would execute you if…” thing is just another version of the right wing narrative where they try to pit groups against each other, much as that hayseed Greg Gutfeld is with his sophomoric desire to open a gay bar next to the Park51 project, in hilariously stupid hopes that the Park51 people are going to go apeshit. Helloooooo, they live in Manhattan already! They know they’re surrounded by homosexuals! Doesn’t seem to bother them!
Bob,
When US has federal laws on anti-discrimination in employment and services, equal laws on adoption, equal laws regarding serving in the military, mandatory requirement on local government to promote equality, national policies on homophobic bullying then the US can talk about moral superiority.
I just spent 2 weeks in the Hamptons – with friends. How beautiful! But even glimpsing FOx News, esp. Bill O’reilly was a sad reminder of the lies they will tell. TV is the US’s most powerful media and the reach and malign national influence of Faux News is without equal.
It seems to me that the Muslims trying to build in lower Manhattan are just the type of patriotic peaceful Americans that could only result in the benefits of tolerance and understanding and possibly to a specifically American form of Islam that maybe has more room for flexibility on gay issues.
I’m not saying Muslims in America should be ostracized. I agree with a great deal of what you’re saying in that regard. One of my closest friends in college, Shireen, was a Muslim. Her family came from India. She fasted at Ramadan, but her family also had a Christmas tree, and I don’t remember her even mentioning going to a mosque (although she might have at times), so she would definitely fall into the very moderate category. She is a wonderful person and a great asset to our nation!! Shireen had many gay friends and respected and loved all of them. If 50 million Shireens wanted to come to America, I would be at the airport welcoming them. BUT, notice I said that Shireen supports LGBT rights.
Here is my problem with the community center/mosque in lower Manhattan. If these backers are trying to build a bridge to other faiths and communities, they don’t seem to be showing any sensitivity at all. That gives me pause.
What kind of sensitivity should they be showing that they’re not?
What is the penalty for apostasy? Do Park51 funders condemn death threats against Danish cartoonists and Sir Salman Rushdie?
Yes.
Evan, I am not claiming to be an expert on Iran but if you can contradict the claim on executions please enlighten me. Perhaps there really are no homosexuals in Iran after all.
I brought it up because you seemed to be judging Pat much more harshly that the Iranians.
I’m just saying that if you seem to think you need to nuance yourself to the Islamic world to win hearts and minds yet you also seem to be unwilling to do the same to win over people here.
Evan,
I’ve reread your posts on the backers of Park 51.
The rhetoric is so nice. Unfortunately, all he seems to be telling Fundamentalist Muslims is that they should try to stop hurting people, which is of course good, in theory. But where is the message about actually affirming the dignity of gay people, our lives, and our equality?
Not there.
As far as I can see, the jury is still out on whether or not the Park 51 backers are a force for good or evil. Hopefully that question will be answered satisfactorily at some point. Until then, I would advise taking everything they say with a full shaker of salt.
Okay, I’m sure you recognize that I took your comments on Andrew Marin and just changed it to the “mosque backers.” I’m just trying to make a point that we need to be careful not to be hypocritical. Alright, I’m sure you’re about to go apeshit on my a*s, so just remember that I love ya buddy and just want to make you think. ;) I do get where your coming from with your stance. I just don’t think we should be blind to the potential dangers to our community from even many “moderate” forms of Islam.
Jack, I have explained the difference five times today. This mosque issue is not about gay people!
Like, seriously, it has nothing to do with gay people. Andy Marin, on the other hand, is a born and raised American who spends his life devoted to gay issues. It’s not a good comparison, at all. Islam, for the most part, is not a modernized religion. So the talk coming from Imam Rauf and his wife is actually very refreshing to hear, and is a testament to what happens to a religion when it’s exposed to modernity. This should be encouraged. AND, I should add, since nobody REALLY knows what the hell Andy Marin thinks about gay people in his heart of hearts, that if Marin wanted to build a New York outpost in that old Burlington Coat Factory in lower Manhattan, no one would have a damn word to say about it, because he’s a Christian. OH, but these Muslims, who may or may not hate gay people, but sure as hell seem to be showing some good old American progress in a lot of other areas, have become a subject of national discussion and wingnut outrage, simply because they’re Muslims.
you’re, not your
Paul, I was too snarky to you earlier and I am sorry. Some of the things you mentioned I believe already are US law. But isn’t it true that gay rights are not full in the U.K.? You cannot marry, correct?
It is insensitive because of the terrorist attack that took place in the name of Islam and that was a traumatic event for Americans. Just like the word “crusade” is offlimits when addressing ANYTHING related to the Islamic world. And I agree with that. The word shouldn’t be used because it offends Muslim history. (It shouldn’t be against any law mind you, just good manners and a sign of respect.) Why won’t the backers of this community center/mosque consider another site if it would show their good intentions and further the cause of understanding and reconciliation between their faith and the larger American community?
All right, cool. I assume you also support tearing down any church that’s within a certain radius of an abortion clinic that’s been bombed, as well.
I must continue to emphasize as well, that these Muslims aren’t GOING TO Lower Manhattan to build this mosque. They’ve lived there since before Wingnut Christmas, I mean 9/11.
How long does Islam have to be exposed to the West before we can call them on their anti-gay teachings? If Imam Rauf thinks that I’m evil because I’m gay, I have a problem with that. I don’t know if he thinks that, but do you? Do you know of any pro-gay Muslim organizations? I’m honestly not being a jerk, I’m really asking. I assume that there are many because of the cultural/ethnic diversity of Muslims and the large numbers in the West. Do you have info on some of those?
Right, but would you go insane protesting if Pat Robertson wanted to exercise his right to build a church near the WTC site? No.
These people had as much to do with 9/11 as Pat Robertson did. That’s the point. We’re not arguing about whether their support or lack thereof (because we really don’t know) for gay rights is good thing or how to respond to that. We’re talking about the fact that many Americans are utilizing a bigoted double standard because these people are Muslim. There are over a billion Muslims in the world. A tiny minority of them want to destroy us. Hint: those who actively immigrate and end up being Americanized members of their communities don’t tend to be THAT kind of Muslim.
I’ll look into pro-gay Muslim stuff.
That said though, remember: I think ALL religion is preposterous. As I said above, though, they are equally preposterous. Also, please remember: there are lots and lots of gay Muslims! We’re not doing them any good here in the modernized West by viewing the entire Muslim religion as untouchable.
Ok, I don’t think your abortion clinic analogy is valid. Let’s say that a gay rights organization hosts a convention with 3,000 attendees. Randy Thomas from Exodus drives up in a truck full of fertilizer and blows the place up, killing all attendees. All of the Exodus leaders go on the run, so there may be more attacks. Gay people all over the country are worried that they will be next. Finally, nothing else happens, and after a while the GLBT community calms down, but the trauma lasts for a while. A few years later Andy Marin announces that he wants to build a thirteen story Christian community outreach center next to the crater. Just a coincidence. Would you have five articles on TWO supporting that? Would you not question his motives? I would. Would I say he has a legal right to do that. Sure. Would I find it insensitive? yes.
Thanks for looking into the pro-gay Muslim stuff. This discussion has got me really interested in that. (actually, that would make a great documentary wouldn’t it?)
Is Andy Marin the same person promoting the same ideology as Randy Thomas? Not that we know of.
So no. I wouldn’t oppose it.
But you need to visit New York, because this idea that this center is “next to the crater” or anything like that is silly. It’s two huuuuuge city blocks away, out of the line of sight of the WTC site, but moreover, that’s a strawman. Who cares where it is? Muslims are being pressured to stop building mosques EVERYWHERE.
You know what I think would be awesome. If Imam Rauf came out and spoke and said that he never saw the location of his community center/mosque as something that would cause discord or controversey. That his goal is to bring everyone of all faith (or no faith) together for better understanding between communities. That while he has the right to build the community center near ground zero, he doesn’t want that to be a stumbling block to better relations. That based on that, he will move his center to another part of Manhattan. He would be shown to be sincere and wise. Those suspicious of his motives (including me) would look foolish. I would send him a donation to his building fund.
Well, I’m not part of those who are against Muslims building mosques EVERYWHERE.
But why should he move it out of the community it’s meant to serve?!
The WTC site is not “hallowed ground.” It was an international site of business and trade. It hopefully will be again. Something bad happened there. Many bad things have happened in many bad places in the world.
Treating it as some sort of holy site, in my opinion, also plays into bin Laden’s playbook.
Is it just for people in lower Manhattan? 13 floors? Maybe it is. Do you know that it is only for the neighborhood? I thought it was a lot bigger deal than that from reading the Imam’s wife’s comments.
And I think G.W. Bush should come out and say that they should build it just where they want to and he would be happy to visit it like he visited a mosque right after 9/11.
They envision it as being a center for the WHOLE community, yes. But part of the reason it’s there is that that’s where there’s a big, underserved Muslim community.
And yes, 13 floors. Tiny by Manhattan standards.
Bush can say, or not say, whatever he wants.
Okay, I’ve got to duck out, because I’m going to a concert.
To the people who lost love ones, it is hallowed ground.
As I think of it, Bush has the power to silence the whole issue with one sentence.
thanks for the debate Evan. you definitely made me think.