Speaks volumes, I think. And it leads me to believe that the fundies know/understand something that Marin’s water-carriers in the gay Christian community don’t. Guess who else speaks highly of Andrew Marin in this report? Mark Yarhouse!
The rhetoric is so nice. Unfortunately, all he seems to be telling Fundamentalist Christians is that they should try to stop hurting people, which is of course good, in theory. But where is the message about actually affirming the dignity of gay people, our lives, and our equality?
Not there.
As Kyle at Right Wing Watch notes, Michelangelo Signorile has been sounding the alarm about Marin for a while.
As far as I can see, the jury is still out on whether or not Andrew Marin is a force for good or evil. Hopefully that question will be answered satisfactorily at some point. Until then, I would advise taking everything he says with a full shaker of salt.
This piece seems too “Father Damien” living among the lepers. Their ultimate goal is still to bring LGBTQ folk “back to the fold”, to save us from our “sin”. No thanks Andrew.
YES. That’s a great way to put it.
This seems consistent with his past framing.
Marin tends to characterize us as the outcasts to be talked down-to, and the “bridge” that he builds is a one-way bridge from us to celibacy and fundamentalism. I guess we are supposed to be happy that once we reach the other side, we won’t be hanged or electrocuted — just treated as immigrants with no rights.
He seems to be reassuring the Christian Rightists that they’re not dire threats to religious freedom and human dignity, and that they’re not heretics — when in fact they are both.
His intentions concern me–he is not affirming to equality from what I see.
I am and not yet welcome into pulpits to preach. wonder why?
Hmm, I dunno about this guy…I get a ping on my gaydar when I watch this.
I think he may be a homo in denial. Moving into BoysTown allows him to immerse himself in the gay culture while maintaining his denial.
If he’s actually straight, I think he’s something like a Trojan Horse. Persecution with a warm friendly loving smile. Luring people into the cult with phony love is a time-tested Christian tactic.
Or both.
Christianity has evolved from the day St Paul invented it. And it looks like another diluted version of homophobia-lite faith is emerging.
- Does Mr Marin believe that the people whom he befriends are bound for eternal hell? It is not really possible to have an honest dialog or friendship with someone who believes that.
If you squirm out of this by quoting an anti-semite like Graham, ‘It’s my job to love people, it’s god’s job to convict them,’ then it begs the question, how you know the mind of god, and how you know which god will convict you, and how you know there is a god in the first place.
Mr Marin says he is here to listen – this is a wonderful opportunity to share the Good News about the natural world, and the fact that the road to Damascus is a two-way street. The overwhelming evidence for Evolution is the starting point, and the fact that the book of Genesis, along with all its characters, was just a legend. Dan Barker at the Freedom From Religion Foundation was also a raving evangelical homophobe – and now his recent book, ‘Godless’ includes a foreword by Richard Dawkins. I strongly recommend he dares to read it.
NB Always resist those who, when discussing the most essential aspects life, feel the need to constantly tap you on the shoulder or wave their hands all over the place when emphasizing concepts such as ‘oneness’ ‘God’s love’ ‘enternal salvation’ and so on. All parties of God seem excel in this conjuror’s trick, as if to inspire feelings guilt in their opponents for daring to disagree.
You can check a recent blog post that Mark Yarhouse just wrote as he is analyzing data that Andrew Marin and The Marin Foundation has collected on religious and spiritual acculturation in the LGBT community. Micahel Bailey, who happens to be a gay atheist, is also analyzing the data with Marin and Yarhouse.
Sorry, I forgot to include the link for the data analysis that I mentioned. Here you go – http://psychologyandchristianity.wordpress.com/2010/08/20/religious-acculturation-study/
“I’m sorry”, it says on the T-shirts that he and his gang are wearing at the Gay Pride parade. Sorry for what? Sorry that they presented their nasty anti-gay message in such a nasty, unattractive and hectoring way. Now they’ve turned over a new leaf: they’re presenting it nicely, kindly, gently and with happy, smiling faces – so much so, in fact, that you may not at first sight even recognize it, but the message itself remains the same; they’re just going to be ever so patient and long-suffering with us over it. As far as I’m concerned, they can take a long walk along a short pier.
If you want to begin to understand Andrew Marin, perhaps start with his operating model (he’s admitted to using this model of evangelical conversion):
John M. Perkins and ‘the Three R’s of Community Development’
(Kevin: Michael Bailey is not gay. Anyone may also safely guess what Marin’s much self-promoted study will reveal… gay men and women grew up in a range of religious families, like everyone else, and are not ignorant on the subject of Jesus or Bible. Yeah, stunning, we weren’t born under a cabbage. However, this was World breaking news to Marin.)
I had a similar experience one evening in West Hollywood 2 years ago, when I was coming back from the Abbey. A group of evangelicals had a placard and had set up a table with lots of leaflets on it; they were telling everyone how sorry they were for how some christians treated LGBTs. Their next message was ‘change is possible’ – I entered a discussino with a blonde 20-something girl, about ‘change’. when I started questioning her about why she believed in jesus (she gave her self at age 11), then when i asked her how she knew the author of psalms 14:1 (the fool in his heart…) wasn’t himself a fool, her friends got extremely aggressive, spouting about how i was damned for hell, asking me to ‘move on’ – which i didn’t of course. I hope that woman might have thought for once.
but the point is – if you believe homosexuality damns you to hell, you won’t simply change that by moving into the neighborhood and having a beer with your potential comverts. he is here to win souls, by whatever means – he really believes he is doing you the utmost good and saving you from the worst punishment possible. He is a slave, who like abraham trying to kill his son, would probably commit any crime imaginable to please the dictator in the sky.
i really wish people would walk away from superstition period; there really is no need for these invisible crutches.
I think it is such a necessary job. I wish more people would make bridges between religion and sexual orientation issues. Perhaps he does not believe that homosexuality is right. But that is not what matters. What matters is that he is trying to help out.
Jacob, the fact that he’s “trying to help” really isn’t what matters, because if he’s still fundamentally teaching people (and conservative families) that a person’s natural sexuality is inherently wrong, and that they just need to be “saved,” or whatever other bullroar, then he’s still hurting people. And it’s very hard to put together a coherent case that says he’s not doing that.
Jacob, if you think gayness is not right you’re not going to be able to help out, you’re only going to damage – that’s what matters.
Jacob, between self-respecting gays and obscurantist Christians no bridge is wanted, useful or even possible. Between self-respecting gays and enlightened Christians no bridge is necessary.
Over twenty years ago British journalist Terry Sanderson wrote a book entitled “How to be a Happy Homosexual”. In it he warned people to be on their guard against those who make statements which sound supportive, but which are qualified with an “if” or a “but” which, as he put it, “turns the whole thing inside out.” For instance, he said, “Your local vicar may say that gays are children of God just like everyone else. Make sure that he’s not attaching some condition like ‘but they should resist the temptation to engage in homosexual acts’.”
You say, “What matters is that he is trying to help out.” Help whom to do what exactly?
Jacob, when Christians “build bridges” to gay people, the purpose is to carry a Trojan Horse to the other side. The ultimate objective is them gaining the power to control our lives and suck money out of us. The warm friendly loving smiles you see are just tools from their toolbox.
Churches that are truly welcoming and affirming toward gay people don’t speak in terms of “building bridges,” they simply accept them as they would anyone else. The purpose of a bridge is to cross over a gap, but the gap is still there, and everyone knows it and can see it.
Well said, Richard.
I have met Andrew. I think he is a nice, personable guy with a lovely wife. Perhaps he means well and does want to build bridges. It is encouraging that he is actually listening to people in Boys Town, rather than doing all the talking.
However, I have my doubts that true bridges can be built with fundamentalists in any meaningful way. I do not believe fundamentalists can truly reconcile with gays any more than they can with legitimate science.
For example, one cannot be LGBT supportive and still call my relationship “sinful”. Just as one cannot say they are pro-science and believe the earth is only a few thousand years old. There is no coherent way to square such circles.
The true answer is for fundamentalists to lose their religion or change their religion. But, the thought of the Bob Jones crowd one-day embracing or accepting gays without changing beliefs is far-fetched, in my view.
Andrew says that a question like “is homosexuality a sin” is a non-starter and conversation stopper. Maybe this is true. That, however, does not mean that every conversation should not start and end with this key question. If it ends, then so be it.
There is real substance to our disagreements with fundamentalists and socially conservative evangelicals. These points of conflict cannot simply be papered over without addressing the core of the disagreement.
Gays have done nothing wrong. Evangelicals have long attacked an innocent group of people for simply living as who they are. Thus, the aggressor must not only apologize for the past. But, it also must change its ways and flat out say, “homosexuality is not sinful and it has caused enormous harm to say that it is sinful.”
Until this statement is made, Marin’s work, even if well-intentioned, will only float around the periphery of the problem.
For example, imagine a Catholic trying to build a bridge with Jews saying, “the Jews slaughtered Jesus, but we should embrace them.”
Such as statement would not solve the problem. Only a substantive, unambiguous statement such as, “The Jews are not responsible for killing Jesus” would end hostility towards Jews.
To be truly effective, Andrew must sell the message that “homosexuality is NOT A SIN.” Anything short of this perpetuates the damage and is rhetorical window-dressing.
As an X-Catholic…Reality and Science ARE my Religion! ..treating others as I myself wish to be treated..NO religion needed! These charletons can go ……themselve,and thier Phoney “Im sorry” BS! No Gawd,He/she/it gives a ratz behind if sexually you like cock, or pussy…religion is manmade BS to keep sheeple in line and full of fear,oh..and the coffers full $$$
Religion’s for pigeons.
Richard — Don’t stereotype. I’m sure there are plenty of atheist pigeons out there!