They’ll keep suing, and they’ll just keep losing. Do you all remember the student who was mad because he made a speech opposing marriage equality, and his teacher allegedly called him an idiot, or something else equally rude but otherwise protected under the First Amendment? The student, or his Religious Right handlers, obviously doesn’t understand when you actually have grounds to sue, or what the judicial system is actually for:
The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals on Friday unanimously overturned a lower court decision allowing Los Angeles City College student Jonathan Lopez’ case to go forward.
A three-judge panel says Lopez failed to show he was harmed by the incident days after California voters in November 2008 enacted Proposition 8 a ban on gay marriages.
Lopez alleged that speech instructor John Matteson cut him off midway through his oration when he quoted a dictionary definition of marriage and recited a pair of Bible verses. He said Matteson also called him a “fascist bastard.”
Welcome to college, Jonathan. They challenge your beliefs, and sometimes they don’t hold your widdle hands while they’re doing it.
It reminds me slightly of Uri Geller, the paranormal metal-bender, and James Randi, the magician and sceptic. Geller announced his intention to sue Randi in every state and in every country. After he’d sued Randi and lost for the nth time, the latter commented, “Mr Geller’s paranormal powers weren’t functioning correctly when he brought these lawsuits.”
Sorry for off topic rant but James Randi is a sore point with me. He is a professional debunker which makes him closed minded and disengenuous in the case of the existence of ESP. I think he considers it a threat since he does not have it and some people do. In a sense he functions as an anti-ESP bigot.
Um, James Randi is actually pretty good.
He tends to have facts and evidence on his side, whereas those such as Geller have nothing.
James Randi is right about a lot of things but not ESP or at least not all aspects of it. There is much objective scientific evidence that there is a very weak human non- supernatural psychic ability. Randi just likes to dis the whole field.
Whiny douchebags. The First Amendment says you get to practice religion freely. It doesn’t say you get to force it on everyone everywhere. Too bad the idiots don’t grasp that concept, which is why they keep losing these lawsuits.
“non-supernatural psychic ability”
Kind of an oxymoron, no? What sort of scientific evidence?
there is no such thing as esp. or ghosts, or vampires.
Anti-ESP bigot? Oh Bob, please stop. It’s not bigoted to be against something that doesn’t actually exist.
@ ESP questions — In all seriousness, I don’t think there is much serious question that some forms of ESP exist — it isn’t a matter of religion or magick — (not that I have anything against either unless used to harm someone) There are many things we still don’t understand, and other things that we cannot yet quantify, often because they are unreliable (unstable) — that doesn’t mean that those things don’t exist — automatic disbelief is just another fundamentalist trap, the same as religious fundamentalism (and yes, atheistic fundamentalism can exist too).
As for scientific evidence of ESP — start with the Duke University studies (Dr. Rhine if memory serves) and go forward from those.
As for the amazing Randi — he’s a joke. I’ve seen him, if anything encouraged me to believe in ESP it was seeing his frantic attacks.
Sorry I can’t be of more help, it isn’t my terminal degree – if you start with Duke you can follow the research. Parapsychology is considered a science, btw – at least by all the scientists I work with, and I work with quite a few in several disciplines (though none are parapsychologists.)
Have a nice day.
“Kind of an oxymoron, no? ” Not at all. Science has proven that the universe is what is called non-local, that is connected. Our minds seem to be connected to the greater universe. We are only at the beginning of our understanding, not at the end.
Bob, has there ever been a reputable study at a major university that supported existance of ESP?
I mean, I will admit that I cannot prove it does NOT exist, but, I don’t think I have ever read any compelling evidence that it does either.
That said, wow, this track got way off from a discussion of a real world court case in CA, although I see Williams analogy! It was the 9th, and they get overturned a lot. I wonder if the Supremes will take this one up? I had read up this case before, and the student sounds like a real a*s. I gotta wonder though how I would feel if a pro gay student was making a presentation at a conservative campus and the teacher called him a fascist.
Maybe this is a dangerous precedent in a way? (even if I like the shutting down of this particular right wind nut)
Daniel, it is bigoted to close one’s mind and refuse to listen to real evidence.
Gene, There is over one hundred years of academic and more informal studies of ESP. The US defense establishment studied and used “Remote Viewing” for over twenty years. It busts the paradigm of a completely materialistic and reductionist universe to which a lot of scientists won’t give up without a fight. Even Carl Sagan, while still skeptical, left the door cracked open just a little in his last book.
Bob, what real evidence? Proving something doesn’t exist is not “closing one’s mind”. If someone could prove ESP exists it would be a different matter–but it’s never happened. It’s not bigoted to not believe in things that can’t be proven–in fact it’s rational.
Bob, in your response to Gene most–if not all–of what you present is myth and urban legend. And Sagan presenting a possiblity is not the same as proof (since I don’t know what you’re referring to I’ll have to take your word).
No, Daniel, it’s not myth. The govt. Remote Viewing program was very real as were the other things. I can’t make you agree with their conclusions and I don’t fault Randi or Sagan for their skepticism or you for yours. I do fault Randi for his biases and closed mindedness. It’s the process he goes through to arive at his conclusions in this case that I object to. I did not present the Sagan statement as proof, just attitudes slowly changing.
“that doesn’t mean that those things don’t exist — automatic disbelief is just another fundamentalist trap, the same as religious fundamentalism (and yes, atheistic fundamentalism can exist too)”
Do you believe in Santa Claus?
It’s a serious question; I’m not being smarmy, here.
What about the invisible dragon that’s trapped in my garage? The flying spaghetti monster? The invisible angelic wings that sprout from my shoulderblades when the moon is waning crescent?
Re: Rhine (who, incidentally, was a botanist), there’s the bad science I was talking about earlier. In the ninety-ish years since his research started, his findings have yet to be duplicated, and not much else has been unearthed since.
Better question, Bob. Do you believe in the North American Union, and that the Amero is coming for you?
“The US defense establishment studied and used “Remote Viewing” for over twenty years.”
And a pretty good example of wasted resources and taxpayer money. That and the police’s use of psychics to look for missing people. It’s rather sickening to think about, and not because of ooooh spooky psychics.
It’s not like the government hasn’t wasted money on other goofy things in the past. Up to and including so-called drug sniffing, bomb detecting machines whose sole “working” mechanism turned out to be globs of epoxied ants.
Makyui, your link to the Skeptic’s Dictionary just shows how biased they are. Your statement “Rhine (who, incidentally, was a botanist…” is designed to cast doubt on his credentials is as silly as the charge that “Kinsey was just an entimologist”.
ESP is a very weak but testable phenomonon and it continues to be studied. I think in time it will be widely recognized.
Read Upton Sinclair’s book Mental Radio for a fun little set of experiments.
Evan, no but I actually don’t think a North American Union is such a bad idea for the 2050 timframe.
BTW, you all should realize that my thoughts about ESP are in anti-alignment with the standard view most Christians have- that all such things are “of the devil”.
I think ESP is ultimately just physics.
Being skeptical is a bias? Okay, then.
When people who actually focus their careers on brain physiology are saying that there’s no evidence for ESP, listening to a dude who mostly works in plants but dabbles a little as a curiosity isn’t very convincing (though, no, that shouldn’t automatically discredit him, either). It’s like listening to a nutritionist going on about what a failure carbon dating is and that dinosaurs totally walked with people.
At any rate, it’s not Rhine’s chosen field that fails, but rather a complete inability to replicate his findings. ESP is certainly testable, but it seems to be failing the tests over and over and over again. For all the advancements in technology and understanding of human biology we’ve seen in the last few years, research in ESP doesn’t seem to advance past the 1930′s.
Makyui- I disagree. The military thought it was valuable and thought so for over twenty years. When it went public they got embarassed but I would not be suprised if it continues behind closed doors here and around the world brcause it seems to work reasonable well.
Oh dear, it’s all my fault. I almost wish that I hadn’t mentioned James Randi now. Let’s put ESP, ghosts etc. aside, shall we? Whatever our views about them, they’re surely not a topic for discussion on here. What I admire is Randi’s work in exposing “faith healers” whose pretensions and methods have quite a bit in common with those of “ex-gay” ministries. But whereas the former claim to heal real illnesses, the latter claim to “heal” something that isn’t an illness in the first place.
I wouldn’t be surprised either, honestly — because people put so much stock into woo and either aren’t used to or don’t want to look into it critically and see if it actually works.
That’s why faith healers are still around, and ghost hunters are on science channels, and f*****g homeopathy gets space in university laboratories, and why government agencies and public schools are still getting fleeced by little plastic boxes with a whole lot of nothing in them. And why whole countries are afraid of witches who might kill them with magic curses.
It likely means they can’t find a mechanism to explain it. Not surprising.
“When people who actually focus their careers on brain physiology are saying that there’s no evidence for ESP”
William: The cat’s out of the bag and it’ll be hard to put it back in, now. :)
But yeah, faith healers… If there’s one good thing Randi did for the world, it was putting a particularly horrible faith healer out of business.
For a little while, anyway. Damn, people don’t learn.
I agree with William. Let’s just agree to disagree on this one.
Bob, I just did a quick google search and looked at this remote viewing program. There’s a reason it was abandoned–it didn’t work. The positive results of early tests couldn’t be repeated and the supposed successes turned out to be hype. I know it’s fun to believe in the supernatural but there are times you just have to grow up. If they are ever able to present repeatable positive results for tests of ESP I’ll change my mind. So far, that hasn’t happened.
There are plenty of explanations, and all of them involve people mistaking pure chance and mundane phenomena that have little to do with universal oneness for ESP.
But really, if turning the brain inside out and backwards doesn’t reveal any actual mechanisms to explain ESP, though, how can it be simple physics? Physics requires physical things acting on other physical things.
Things that are measurable.
Daniel. Not true at all. You are bying into the post public spin of the skeptics and debunkers. Many former military people involved dispute what you just claimed.
The final review was a set up written by skeptics hostile to the program with a determined outcome. It was designed to kill the program and has been reoundly refuted by the people who really were in the know. Believe it of not I don’t really care.
If you are interested please do more that a quick google search.
Makyui it is simply not that simple. Time will tell. Let’s move on please.
Bob, you’ve bought into magical thinking. I will look up more information but in science skepticism is extremely important. The great thing about science is that tests have to be repeatable. Theories have to be proven. You don’t just accept the claims of the theories supporters–they have to prove it. And, people who believe in the supernatural believe it despite the fact that it can’t be proven–just like faith, so the idea that some of the people involved in this incredibly wasteful program still believe it isn’t surprising.
Daniel, No, it’s not magical thinking or even supernatural. I used to be extremely skeptical of ESP also. You yourself are mislead by thinking we are discussing the supernatural. I don’t expect to convince you here but I hope you take a step back if you are interested. Modern physics is suggesting new possibilities in mind/consciousness/physics subtle connections.
Bob, until those possiblities are realities and actually provable and repeatable they will remain supernatural.
Fine Daniel. I know that’s how the game is played. Claim it’s not science so you can’t get funding to test it then complain there is no data to support it. I call that circular skepticism.
Back to the topic-when I was in college, on more than one occasion I’ve heard arguments and disagreements between students and professors (as adults), which we all were; and no one got sued.
My 2 cents on ESP, I think it’s valid because I’ve seen it work with other people, whom I know and trust, much more than the eternal ‘it’s just a coincidence’ could account for. And a number of years ago, Princeton University did experiments that showed the human mind has at least some telekinetic abilities. The book about it is called Margins of Reality by Robert Jahn who is with the engineering department. And yes I did read it.
Okay, I’ll let you live with your delusions. And of course, if it couldn’t be proven in experiments that MUST mean that it was sabotaged–it couldn’t possibly mean that it just doesn’t work.
Paranormal “research” has plenty of funding, particularly from private institutions who actually have an interest in looking at woo; everyone’s going gaga over the alternative stuff, right now, because they want to see magic in the universe. Except the people who’ve recognized that it’s been studied inside and out for decades, and nothing substantial ever crops up.
Hell, there are scientific studies on the power of prayer, right now. I wonder when people will start demanding we research the divining power of reading entrails.
If we are talking about ESP, the discussion isn’t complete until we remember the Rev. Peter Popoff who was exposed by James Randi many years ago. Well, Popoff is back and he’s living higher than ever:
http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2010/09/televangelist-scammer-peter-popoff-is.html
Yup, ol’ Petey was the faith healer I mentioned earlier. Proof that people don’t learn, and fostering gullibility isn’t harmless.
Okay, I’m delurking to weigh in on the ESP thing.
I think there is still so much to learn about the brain, and how and why it works, that I can’t completely discount the idea of ESP, be it rudimentary telepathy or empathic abilities, “remote viewing”, or precognition. We don’t know enough, yet, about the brain, or how it interacts with the (large-scale) universe — there /may/ be something there that we just can’t isolate and quantify. Yet.
And since variations in “power” would obviously vary from person to person, even from experience to experience, this would add to the difficulty of isolating and defining exactly what is going on.
From personal experience, I’ve had a few precognitive dreams, things I just passed off as “eh, weird dream” until a few weeks later I’m in the exact scenario I dreamed about.
When my beloved cat died at the ripe old age of 18, I dreamed of her the morning of her death, before I knew she had passed. I believe she wanted to say goodbye.
Of course, I can’t /prove/ any of this, but I don’t need to justify the workings of my brain to anyone. I just accept that sometimes, weird s**t happens.
Short version: I’m perfectly happy to hold a position of “I’m not sure” on this topic.
Now, on to the asshat that sued. This kid needs to grow the hell up, and recognize that not only is Christianity NOT THE ONLY RELIGION IN EXISTENCE, Christians no longer hold the reins of power, and haven’t for a long time now. He’s just upset because his “supremacy” has been shown for a lie.
Gary said “Princeton University did experiments that showed the human mind has at least some telekinetic abilities.”.
BS they did. If that’s true then why didn’t they collect the $1,000,000 that James Randi is offering anyone who can prove supernatural powers exist?
Daniel, I’m not deluded because I am not dogmatically certain it is real- I just find the subject compelling and interesting. That’s all. It’s no big deal.
Reynolds said “I don’t think there is much serious question that some forms of ESP exist…As for scientific evidence of ESP — start with the Duke University studies (Dr. Rhine if memory serves) and go forward from those.”.
Oh please, some charlatan in the 30′s claiming he found proof of ESP is a long, long, long ways from actually proving ESP exists. If there was no serious question that some forms of ESP exist virtually every scientist and scientific journal would acknowledge it yet in fact all of them utterly reject the idea that there is any evidence for ESP.
Priya, they did do the experiments and even Sagan was intrigued but not necessarily convinced by the results.
The Randi prize was simply not relevant to the Princeton researcher’s agenda or research.
The way I define the term ESP is such that it is a natural phenomonon which is not at odds with either a religious or non religious world view. It just is.
But when you use the term supernatural do you assume some form of spiritual? I separate the supposed supernatural phenomenon which I am not interested in from ESP which I am. I think if it is real it is built into the fabric of the universe and our minds and consciousness. I don’t claim this is proven fact yet but that is the direction my thoughts go as to the ultimate physical reality of the universe. It is not related to my religious views.
Bob said “The Randi prize was simply not relevant to the Princeton researcher’s agenda or research.”.
LOL, yes of course. Few people would willingly grab $1,000,000 sitting there for the taking – that’s believable.
Bob said ” I don’t claim this is proven fact yet but that is the direction my thoughts go as to the ultimate physical reality of the universe. It is not related to my religious views.”.
But it is related to your religious beliefs in that both beliefs are based on the foundation of an unscientific look at the universe.
Priya, the ESP question is testable and I only say the data is incomplete so far but I find it compelling so my interest in ESP is not unscientific.
My faith my be unscientific in the sense that science is an invented process which only deals with measurable things by definition. But unscientific does not necessarily mean untrue.
Priya, even awarding a one million dollar prize would not prove anything really. It would only prove James Randi was convinced.
There is also the legitimate scientific possibility that a weak but measurable effect exists but nobody knows yet how to control it and pass the rigorous protocol Randi proposes.