This is one of those stories that, if you simply look at the bones of it, without any context, might seem as if, indeed, Christians are being discriminated against simply for their beliefs. Of course, that’s not quite the case:
Gay rights laws are eroding Christianity and stifling free speech, Church of England bishops warned yesterday.
Senior clerics, including former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey, spoke out ahead of a High Court ‘clash of rights’ hearing over whether Christians are fit to foster or adopt children.
The test case starting today involves a couple who say they have been barred from fostering because they refuse to give up their religious belief that homosexuality is unacceptable.
Here is the thing, though. This has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the couple is Christian. It has to do with the fact that they are using their Christianity as a smokescreen for their homophobia. Many, many Christians are not homophobes, and their ability to foster children is not at issue.
Look how dramatically the bishops and religious leaders are framing this:
Supporters hope their legal challenge will set a precedent for the rights of Christians to foster children without compromising their faith.
But senior bishops fear that if the ruling goes against them, it could have devastating consequences for those with religious beliefs.
Either way, they believe the case will determine whether Christians can continue to express their beliefs in this country.
Oh, my god. Tiniest violin in the world, I am playing.
Let me explain this in very simple terms: When you are a foster parent, you are charged with protecting and caring for children. In the real world, it is understood that among minor children, there will be some who are gay. It is a dangerous thing to put a gay child, unknowingly, in the home of homophobes who will bully them with anti-gay religious bigotry. It is not a safe environment for those children, and since we cannot know with 100% certainty which kids in the system are and are not gay, it’s best to put the needs of all children first, and keep them out of homes where they will be spiritually abused.
Or in the words of a prominent UK gay rights leader:
However Ben Summerskill, chief executive of gay rights charity Stonewall, said: ‘Too often in fostering cases nowadays it’s forgotten that it is the interests of a child, and not the prejudices of a parent, that matter.
‘Many Christian parents of gay children will be shocked at Mr and Mrs Johns’s views, which are more redolent of the 19th century than the 21st.’
Exactly. This has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity. I wouldn’t place a child for foster care with radicalized Muslims either. The fact that this couple is going to court over this, that their homophobia is so intense that it’s in the public square, should be a red flag to anyone considering releasing a child into their care.
Conservative Christianity is eroding itself by it’s refusal to at least move into the 20th century when it comes to sex, let alone the 21st century. We thought Rowan Williams (Archbishop of Canterbury) was going to be a friend, but he’s stabbed us in the back repeatedly and those old farts in the UK and the ‘southern cone’ (primarily Africa) have consistently treated gay clergy in North America and America’s presiding bishop, Katharine Jefferts Schori like s**t! The US and Canada should just break away from that ‘Communion’ and tell them to p**s-off, as the Brits say.
Evan writes “This has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the couple is Christian. It has to do with the fact that they are using their Christianity as a smokescreen for their homophobia.”
Evan, BS. It has everything to do with their Christianity.
They truly believe Scripture teaches that God does not approve of homosexuality.
Riiiiight, yes, Bob, BUT what they’re doing is that fundamentalist mind trick where they try to pretend that just because the couple ascribes to an extremist version of Christianity, that all Christians are somehow “under attack,” which is simply not the case.
Evan, you really think believing the ones personal belief that gay sex is not God’s will is an “extremist version of Christianity”? It’s been implicit in Christianity for two thousand years.
Yes, it’s an extremist position, in the year 2010, in a Western nation with the benefit of the Enlightenment and two centuries of scientific advances.
Their beliefs are of no importance. What is of importance as foster parents is how they interact with and treat foster children. From their behavior in this case, I find it highly unlikely that they will treat a gay foster child or a foster child with gay relatives with the kindness and respect that this child so desperately needs in their time of crisis. Their actions in this case make clear their unfitness to foster.
Evan, there are no doubt thousands of simple, sincere Christian couples currently taking care of foster children in the U.K. and the US. Do you think these children should be removed?
If you are saying that these parents and all others like them might “spiritually abuse” children who might potentially be gay then why wouldn’t you say that?
I really think you underestimate and belittle the implications.
If parents are unfit as foster parents they are unfit as adoptive parents. If you set a legal precidence that people of simple, traditional Christian faith are unfit to foster or adopt children ultimatley, that might be seen as a legal basis to discriminate against Christian parents in many ways. There could be an intrusion by the state into homes of people of faith to determine if such a home is an appropriate environment to raise a child.
Bob, you missed my point, entirely.
What I was saying is that this case, try as these bishops might make it, is NOT about their freaking religion. It’s about their homophobia, and they’re using their religious extremism as an excuse.
I have no desire to remove foster children from nice, normal Christian families.
Evan, even nice, normal Christian families who sincerly believe homosexuality is wrong?
BTW, what’s your comment on the difference between tolerence and approval? Many Christians agree that LGBT people should have equal legal rights in our society but still believe it is morally wrong.
“Evan, even nice, normal Christian families who sincerly believe miscegenation is wrong?”
“Evan, even nice, normal Christian families who sincerly believe masturbation is wrong?”
“Evan, even nice, normal Christian families who sincerly believe heliocentrism is wrong?”
“Evan, even nice, normal Christian families who sincerly believe evolution is wrong?”
“Evan, even nice, normal Christian families who sincerly believe not being a Christian is wrong?”
“Evan, even nice, normal Christian families who sincerly believe women’s suffrage is wrong?”
“Evan, even nice, normal Christian families who sincerly believe trans people are wrong?”
“Evan, even nice, normal Christian families who sincerly believe vaccination is wrong?”
If a family is going to tell their kids that being gay is immoral and will doom them to Hell, I have to wonder how “nice” and “normal” they are.
First off, this is flat out ridiculous, and ought to be tossed out of the courtroom on principle.
Secondly, I get the feeling this couple would refuse to hand over a child, should it be adopted by a gay couple. Wacky religious beliefs should be a valid reason to deny a foster-care certification or an adoption.
“Wacky religious beliefs should be a valid reason to deny a foster-care certification or an adoption”
In a heavy handed totalitarian state, yes. In a free society, no. Otherwise you have to just say that basically no activly religious believers of any type can do it. No Mormons, Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Druids, Wicca, SDA’s, Evangelicals, JA’s ect…
Oh, and certainly no militant committed atheists.
Oh come on, Bob, don’t pull that moronic “atheism is a religion” trope, it’s beneath you.
Yes, all religious beliefs are wacky, but some are a harmless sort of wacky and some actually do damage to children, like withholding education and medical care and telling them that if they don’t obey arbitrary b******t rules that may or may not involve things that are intrinsic parts of who they are, then God doesn’t love them and they’re going to burn forever in a pit of misery and fire.
If people were openly saying that brown people were disgusting and sinful because the bible says so, no one in their right mind would want to hand over children to them, so why is it different for homophobia?
Probably because homophobia isn’t quite as looked down upon as racism is, though that won’t be the case for long.
Bob said “Evan, there are no doubt thousands of simple, sincere Christian couples currently taking care of foster children in the U.K. and the US. Do you think these children should be removed?”.
Come back down to earth Bob. No one is saying children should be removed from couples just because they are christians. Children should be removed from couples who will harm foster children’s mental health by telling them an omnipotent god detests them and will eternally torture them for a harmless normal characteristic, whether they’re christian or not.
Since no Christian parent would tell their child that God detests them.
I meant, no Christian parent would tell their child that God detests them.
Right Bob. They’d just tell their children that their god detests gayness and if the child assumes that that means god detests their gay selves that’s the child’s fault for misinterpreting.
And of course we’ll just hide from the fact that many christians do tell their gay children that their god detests them because no christian has ever done anything wrong in the entire history of the planet.
And of course Bob doesn’t want to address the part about his omnipotent god eternally torturing gays because doing so doesn’t mean his god detests gays, he obviously loves them.
Priya, was that your experience?
Many times Bob. And if you read the stories of gays you hear about that occurring over and over and over.
I’m sorry you were treated that way with such insensitivity. I feel that the Christian Church unfairly singles LBGT people for special condemnation which I don’t believe is the will of God.
Having said that I do believe in Redemption however and that all people need the Savior.
What do they need to be saved from Bob? Your “savior”‘s threat to eternally torture them, that’s what. Your god “saves” people in the same way the mafia provides “protection” for money. In the same way that its not protection when you promiss not to attack someone its not saving people when its your own threats you’re “saving” them from.
Intellectually, I think you know quite well but unless you come under a sense of conviction of your personal need of forgivness and the holiness of God you will never understand. Unless you come to understand that there is a real God who is not the Mafia writ large, my words won’t help much.
Yes Bob I know exactly what your “savior” is supposed to “save” people from – himself. You know it too, but you’re too dishonest to admit the obvious – your imaginary god’s offer of “salvation” is no different than the mafia’s offer of “protection”.
Just as if you punch your neighbour in the nose I can’t forgive you for that, your Jesus can’t forgive you for a wrong committed to someone else. A third person can never forgive your wrongdoing, only the person you’ve wronged can.
Priya, every Christian knows on day one that God is saving his people from the His own wrath by his own mercy. He is the judge that sentences you, then takes off his robes and takes your punishment himself.
ROFL. I was wrong. Bob isn’t the troll I thought (different Bob). He’s a Poe. He has to be.
Nonsense Bob. Your god sends people to hell for eternal torture. He does not go there himself and take the punishment for anyone.
Your god is all-knowing so he knew when he created everyone exactly how they’d turn out. For him to punish people for behaving exactly as he knew the characteristics he gave them would lead them to be is not merciful, its evil. If your god didn’t want people to behave in certain ways he wouldn’t have made them that way in the first place. For an all powerful and all knowing god the world and the people in it are exactly as he knew they’d be when he created them and thus exactly how he wanted them to be when he created them.
What you’re saying makes no more sense then for me to claim I’m angry because I washed the dishes exactly as I intended to do.
I’d stay and argue with you Bob but I’m not interested in banging my head against the wall trying to sort out that mind-f**k you’ve got going on with yourself.
Why then, if you are so -not- interested in trying to “sort out that mind-f**k” as you so crudely put it, do you bother to launch broad attacks on the fundamentals of Christianity?
Bob, I am a bisexual woman who comes from a christian family. I have a christian background and diverse religions and represented in my family. We have christians of all kinds, mormons, jehovah witnesses and atheist. When the news reached them all, that I was with a woman, the only ones who reacted negatively are the fundamentalist baptists. They refused to set foot in my home and told me I was going to hell…..but that Jesus loved me anyway. The mormons came to my house, EVEN FOR AN EASTER DINNER!
This whole issue is about whether this couple are fit to receive children in their home and give them the support they need to become whoever they are bound to become, and that involves eventualy being gay (10% of the population). It has nothing to do with their faith. People from all walks of life have prejudices against homosexuals, people from other races, etc…. and these people are not allowed to foster children.
By the way, I am a foster parent, too…..