By James Voss
My experience at Teen Challenge began in Aug of 2007. At the age of twenty-four, I found myself facing the county prosecutor on a charge of driving under the influence of alcohol after leaving a gay bar near Troy, Michigan. This was my first time getting a ticket for anything.
I had spent most of the past three years dealing with the pressure of coming out to my friends and family while attending a private four-year bible college. North Central University is a self-proclaimed “Christ-centered Pentecostal school with a commitment to academic excellence that prepares students to fulfill biblical models of leadership and ministry throughout the world .”
I left for North Central University right after high school to become a youth pastor. The one obstacle of graduation was my sexual orientation. According to the university, homosexuals suffer a life controlling disorder that can be overcome through self-discipline, prayer, and by living a life centered in Christ and obeying the N.C.U Way. At a certain point I decided that I needed to love myself enough, and admit that I was gay and leave NCU.
At this point I admit that I had little direction in my life and started looking for what gay community I could find at the bar. As I began to come out to my family I found myself in total isolation and the support system that comes with it. You see, my family shared the same world view on homosexuality that North Central University and the Assembly of God did as whole.
My family chose to accept the official teachings of the church that include such anti-gay opinions:
“In the face of a militant homosexual movement that is pressing for legal and social acceptance of homosexuality, the church must keep its focus. First, homosexuals are sinners like everyone and need God’s grace, love, and forgiveness. Second, homosexuals can through the miracle of the new birth be set free from the power of sin and live changed moral lives. The church must reach out to all sinners with the love of Christ, no matter what the sin. And we must never let the declining moral climate of our nation pressure us into condoning what God condemns. ”
Coming out was a hard process when your family and culture is against you, so as I left the gay bar in 2007, I had very little in the way of family or friends to rescue me from the prison cell I found myself in. I sat in jail for ten days unable to reach anyone in my family to post bail.
As it ended up, I was able to obtain a lawyer and all terms of my probation would be met if I completed a court assigned program at Western Michigan Teen Challenge.
Teen Challenge by its own definition is an Assemblies of God USA evangelical Christian recovery program and a network of Christian social and evangelizing work centers. It is a 12-18 month program that serves drug addicts, alcoholics gang members, prostitutes, and people dealing with the life controlling problem of same sex attraction and addiction. Think of the program as a sanctification quick stop to redeem one in the eyes of the Assembly of God Church. I was told that once I spoke in tongues that god would work in my life and remove the gay feelings.
In the four months I lived at the teen challenge center in Muskegon Michigan, all personal decisions were left to the director of the center who was guided by a stern handbook that consisted of 111 individual rules and guidelines. A majority of these rules were designed to put program participants in submission to the program’s leaders who supposedly were anointed by God and spoke with the power and authority of the Holy Spirit. The physical evidence of their holiness the ability to speak in speak in tongues.
In the program, we were not ever allowed to look at females directly. Men and women had to sit on separate sides of the chapel and if a woman was singing or giving a testimony she did so behind an office cubical wall so that only her eyes were visible.
People that entered the center with psychological problems were often not allowed to take medications prescribed by doctors since there was a ban on any medication that had any affect on the brain. If you took medications you were told you weren’t showing enough faith and that Jesus could heal you.
Daily life consisted of chapel, bible classes, work duty, and two hours of praying on your knees. You physically had to kneel or you got in to trouble. Students were not allowed to talk about addiction or in my case homosexuality. Instead, you were only to think and talk about God and the scriptures that they had you memorize and meditate on.
One of the stated program goals was to reprogram or recondition the mind, because as they taught, human nature was evil and your mind was naturally wrong. We were all born sinners, they claimed. So, for a gay man to bring up that he was born gay was stating the obvious, because the program directors believed that we are all born into sin. “All man has fallen short of the Glory of God”, they preached, while they taught that all Christians are at war with their own flesh and blood. (I have included a link to the daily schedule so you can get an ideal of how regimented it was.)
By looking at the curriculum we can get a quick glance at what was covered in the three daily bible classes. In the first 14 weeks I was exposed to classes on attitude, growing through failure, temptation, anger and personal rights. We were told that we signed all our personal rights over to God and the pastors at the center when we entered the program.?Learning at the center was mostly done through rote memorization. Workbooks for classes had places where critical thinking could potentially take place, but students were expected to just memorize the correct answer and fill it in.
While living at the center, all conversations are monitored for ungodliness, all mail is read, and phone conversations are limited to five minutes every two weeks. No mail or phone conversations are allowed in the first four weeks that a student is attending the program. This is done largely because by the fourth week in the program, students are broken down enough that they no longer think for themselves and respond in a programmed way. Parents probably do perceive a change in their child, but is it real or simply a programmed, conditioned reaction to subverting and suppressing all individuality and critical thinking skills?
Program leaders believe the “gay problem”, as they call it, is a sin because “homosexual acts are unnatural because of their high correlation with major illnesses and terminal disease.”
In viewing Romans 1:27 we must ask what is the “due penalty” mentioned “for their perversion”, they preach. They go on to say that, “Though AIDS is not necessarily a direct judgment from God, as innocents are sometimes the victims of the sin of others, it remains a disastrous overarching consequence of sin through the fall of man.” (See Genesis 3).
They also preach:
“Contrary to the claims by homosexual public relations campaigns that claim gays and lesbians are normal, healthy, average people, the opposite is true. Former homosexuals describe a disgusting lifestyle of perversion and sexual obsession. In a study of the median age of death for heterosexuals and homosexuals, less than 2 per cent of homosexuals survived to age 65 while married and single heterosexual men and women living past 65 ranged from 57 to 80 percent.
Clearly on every front whether it is moral, spiritual, physical, or psychological, the practice of homosexuality has proven itself devoid of any individual good or social benefit. Furthermore, the historical record shows homosexuality as detrimental to the well-being of the individual participant, the extended family, and society at large.”
Is it healthy to teach a gay person and churchgoers that homosexuals are a detriment to the society at large? Is breaking a person down the best way to offer genuine help?
From my experience with Teen Challenge, I would have to say no.
In an environment where you are taught that all your personal rights belong to God and program leaders speak with the voice of god, gay students are given little choice but to believe and think how they are taught. At Teen Challenge, people do “change” because they are heavily conditioned how to respond.?Some of these adjustments were positive. For example, having every minute of the day programmed does bring order to one’s life. However, the overall program is quite harmful to those who participate, particularly LGBT people.
The LGBT Community needs to watch out for programs like Teen Challenge and remember that it a massive organization with over 223 centers in North America with the capacity to sleep over 7,536 people, according to its website.
Programs like this negatively impact a high number of gay youth. I can state from firsthand experience that Teen Challenge did some long-term damage to my self esteem.







It’s interesting their admission that “former homosexuals” led lives of icky, yucky, and quelle horreur.
That’s probably why they never ask ACTUAL homosexuals what their lives are like.
“Clearly on every front whether it is moral, spiritual, physical, or psychological, the practice of homosexuality has proven itself devoid of any individual good or social benefit. Furthermore, the historical record shows homosexuality as detrimental to the well-being of the individual participant, the extended family, and society at large.”
And since all of this is a flat out lie– it’s homophobia that gave us George bush, gay bashing, and the politics of fear– you can safely assume the rest of it is a lie as well.
Good for you, James. You got away.
I have a question. Was James given a choice of court assigned programs to complete and he chose this Assemblies of God one due to his religious background or did the court unilaterally assign him to it. Because if that court or that particular judge is forcing people willy-nilly to submit to religious indoctrination I have a hard time seeing how something like the ACLU hasn’t already stepped in a tried to put a stop to it.
Thank you for telling your story. I feel awful for kids caught up in anti-gay religous doctrines. And, of course, when they’re trapped in any kind of live-in or “recovery” program the damage can be so much worse. Here’s hoping you can eventually root out all the self-hatred such a program lays out, like minefields, in your subconscious.
I’m with Bruce. How the bleeping hell was this cultic nightmare given sanction from what is supposed to be a non-sectarian legal system?
Dear James,
God Bless! Thanks for telling YOUR story! I am so glad that you made it. As for your self esteem…Remember you ARE created in the image of love (God)itself! It is sad that so many religonists do not “get” it. Truely God is faithful. I’m glad you are ok.
Keep telling your story, God speed. Love in Jesus!
Charles
I have to agree with Bruce and Brian, court ordered religious indoctrination — and Teen Challenge is bold indoctrination — should not be tolerated. Even at it’s best, faith of any sort is not something one can or should force upon another. Doing so with the power of the state is against everything this country stands for.
I wish you the best, James.
Brian’s question: “How the bleeping hell was this cultic nightmare given sanction from what is supposed to be a non-sectarian legal system?”
Answer: Religion enjoys special rights in the United States. If secular organizations engaged in many of the activities that are common under the protective umbrella of religion, they would be prosecuted for crimes. The most important lesson that an ambitious young scam artist can ever learn is that religion is his best friend.
[...] My Nightmare Experience at Teen Challenge. Read more [...]
I am glad that you got out of that alive. I am a gay christian, & also a youth group leader at our church. My church family knows my sexual orientation, & the members don’t have a problem with it. Remember we are created in god’s image & the most important thing in the bible is to LOVE ONE ANOTHER! Judge not lest ye be judged. God will be the judge of me some day, not men here on earth. Good luck buddy!
David Dove, what church do you belong to? I know there are churches that are welcoming to gay people–there are also churches that accept gay people as long as they’re celibate or are trying to change. I think the latter type of church can actually be more damaging to a gay person’s psyche than the rabidly anti-gay churches.
“We’re all sinners.”
Un hunh, right.
No other ‘sinners’, not only don’t have to disclose what those sins are. But they don’t have to give up or be denied their civil rights and freedoms on condition of what they are.
And no religious bodies are doing such things or making that a requirement against anyone else whose actions they consider sins.
Religious belief is 100% a choice and no religion is ENFORCEABLE against the civil freedoms and rights of other citizens.
Especially those who don’t choose religion at all or a specific one.
So, to rationalize gay lives as deserving of this selective exclusion from the Constitution and it’s code for ALL citizens, is b******t to the highest of hypocrisy and tyranny.
And to their faces, it’s not hard to point this out.
But once any of them start on this crap, there are plenty of examples to prove that the least interest they have is really sticking to the Christian directive of treating another they way they’d want to be treated.
Interesting how many of them really HATE living by that directive and don’t.
James,
There are ways to look at the “Gay thang” from an affirming Spirit-filled perspective and not have to discard you orienation at the expense of your faith:
Check out Sis. Evelyn Schave at http://www.godandgays.org
She was an evangelist for the Church of God Cleveland (a lot like the AG), but now ministers (for the last 20 years) pretty much exclusively in the Gay community, and God told her to preach an affirming, Christ-centered message to them. She is absolutely wonderful and I recommend her ministry to you with all that I know.
There is also glory tabernacle christian center in long beach, CA, which is pastored by two former AG missionaries who came out and have been partnered for more than 20 years: Sandra Turnbull and Janet Robertson. (www.glorytabernacle.com)
God bless.
Peace!
HRG.
I found this interesting because it evoked memories of my “outside” association with Teen Challenge many years ago. I met a man my age at work and, almost immediately fell in lust with him. He was the most desirable man I had ever seen. At the time (the early 70′s), I was in my early twenties and just beginning to try to figure how to be myself in a world condemning me. Having seen this man at work, I almost immediately decided to get to know him. The opportunity presented itself and we became friends. He told me he had been through the Teen Challenge program and was now renting a room from a nice woman associated with the program. I did attend a couple of their prayer services, but like most things religious it didn’t make sense to me.
What I didn’t realize was what a user this street-wise guy was. He came from NY and was a real people user. I fell madly in love with him; he could charm an angry elephant! When I think back, it all seems so silly. I did everything for him – rides to NY, let him borrow my car, even brought him to live with me and my parents under the guise of renting a room from them just to be near him.
Well, he read me like a book and knew I was gay. Yes, he let me into his bed and used me for his pleasure while all the time telling me what a sinner I was; not him – ME. I was so madly in love with him, I didn’t care what he said. My youth made me so foolish.
Teen Challenge did nothing for this guy. He came out the same way he went in except he found a lot more gullible people willing to submit to his charm.
Gianni: Sad to read your story and realized you were used so callously.
Been through the system, not Teen Challenge, but an ex-gay “program,” and I can honestly say it didn’t do anything for me except mess with my head. Twelve years and Twelve Steps later, I finally accepted myself the way I am and moved on from there. The discord the so-called “Christian” fundamentalist churches spew out from their pulpits about gays is TRULY appalling! While speaking [railing?] against the gay community, the disharmonious take in the message that the gay and lesbian community/gays and lesbians in general are second-class citizen and worthy only of their contempt needs to be outlawed, quite frankly. If that is “Christian love,” I want none of their love, nor for that matter, THEIR agenda!!!
Sadly, the longer this goes on, the masses continue to be alienated from “the church” the fundies speak of, and want nothing to do with them, yet they [the fundies] don’t seem to have a clue they are turning most people “off” to God, not “on.” As it was in Jesus’ day, it is our generation, and those before it, that will be answering to The Higher Power. I’d love to hear what most of them will have as an answer when He says “Go away, for I never knew you/you never knew me.”
Hiding their heads in the sand, are they? Seems to me they are so heavenly minded they are no earthly good…..
[...] experience being ‘rehabilitated’ by the Christian Right,” taken from “My Nightmare Experience at Teen Challenge,” which was posted on the “Truth Wins Out” blog. (And is that right? Should it [...]
Wow. Glad to see that James got out. What a sick bunch of people. This is why I am pretty much Pagan these days. God and Goddess love me just as I am, with no need to change.
Wow, I read so much about this and still the ‘good’ people of the church condem the “Gay Lifestyle.”
This is my Gay lifeStyle:
I wake-up, brush my teeth, have breakfast, and go to work, I pay my taxes, I pay my bills, I go to the gocery store, I fix dinner and watch TV.
So, I have to ask: What is a ‘Church’ Person’s LifeStyle?
Thanks for all your support, I just hope that others will be have to go through the same pain I did.
Seems like he committed a crime and went to summer camp. How shocking. Jail life is very controlled. Thats just how these programs are. He should be lucky he only went to a place where his ideas were hurt. Also nobody hurt his body. We have to respect the programs right to free speech even if we disagree with it. Our acceptance of all speech is what sets us apart from the extremists.
Rusty–what summer camp did you go to?
Whatever his crime the government shouldn’t be sentencing people to go to places like this. I don’t have to “respect” anti-gay programs–and they certainly shouldn’t be supported by law enforcement. His “crime” was DUI–not homosexuality.
…and this is different from Islam and Bin Laden how???
God is Truth and His word is true whether anyone agrees with Him or not. Teen Challenge should continue to be true to their calling and continue blessing the lives of thousands of people each year, the vast majority of which are thankful for their helpful intervention in the downward slide of lives formerly controlled by their own undisciplined choices.
I agree with the quotation you cited from the Teen Challenge handbook. They are right. You are wrong. You failed to take the first step toward recovery by admitting this truth, and blamed your own failure on the messenger that told you the truth.
We are all born into sin. You were too. You are included in the word “all.” Your stubbornness in holding on to your sin does not serve the purpose of freeing you from it.
Jeff, your problem is what you call sin is not in anyway a wrongdoing. Gayness harms no one and brings people together to love and support each other.
Your claiming your imaginary sky-buddy represents truth won’t make it true. You’re going to die and that will be the end of you, no heaven, no hell, just the end of you and a life wasted trying to please bronze age bigots.
Priya,
I have no imaginary sky buddy, although I understand that’s the pejorative currently in vogue among non-thinking atheists and agnostics. Perhaps if you stated your own position without caricaturing mine, or at the very least if you attacked mine with even a modicum of intelligence you would get further.
I’m not holding my breath until that happens, as I’ve noticed most agnostics/atheists are not really interested in truth. To borrow from Al Gore, it’s too damn inconvenient.
Wayne,
Generally we put ourselves through whatever pain we go through as a consequence for choosing our sin over God. You’ve made it very clear that, in your current rebellious state, you are certain that God’s Word, and his messengers of truth are responsible for your pain. I suggest you take a hard look within and realize that you will never find permanent peace, real rest for your soul, and lasting contentment outside of His will for you.
Jeff, you are making a fool of yourself, and sounding like findamentalist trash, neither of which will endear you to anyone in here.
Go online, find the works of theologians such as Duba, Actienmier, Rogers, et. al. each of which is a pastor and professor of theology (or recently retired from teaching at Princeton Seminary, in Dr. Dubas case). These, and other men and women like them, have blown so many holes in your anti gay theology that whole denominations, from the Lutherans to the Presbyterians to the Episcopalians now welcome GLBT people as God made us (gay) as members and clergy. In short, just as we slowly moved past the church supporting slavery and the second class status of women, and got in line with the truth and love of God on those issues, many Christians (the best educated, most historic ones that have served God for centuries as it happens…not fundy fly by nights whose pastors fly about in jets and speak in tongues, etc.) have now grown past the poor theology and homophobia you exhibit.
with kindness, I tell you to;
1) get a real thelogical education. Note I said a REAL education in Christian theology.
2) grow a set of manners. Do you REALIZE how arrogant, stupid and foolish you are to tell people you do not even know that they are not happy and content? Newsflash…most of the glbt people I know are. Once they get past the crap fundamentalist Christianity/Judiasm/Islam has thrown at them.
3) Once you have done this, gotten educated, and hopefully raised your theological standards, you may come here, and politely offer us the apology you so deeply owe us. It will be accepted with good grace.
Good luck Jeff.
Goodbye
Gene,
A “real” theological education is not one which seeks to find loopholes that allow me the liberty of disobeying God with fewer pangs of conscience. I am well-read in the current crop of so-called theologians who do so. Despite that fact I choose to believe God and his Word as truth, but also a more rational, considerate and humane position.
If someone’s house is on fire I am not more loving to them by shielding them from that fact. The more loving position is to confront what (NOT who) God hates and agree with God (homologeo Gr.) that it is sin.
I assume you have no problem with the first step in a twelve step program, but by your logic I could just as easily overcome other addictions without first taking the step of admitting I have them.
Manners are not to be valued over truth. I wrote nothing intentionally mean-spirited, but by your criteria it’s impossible to be “Emily Post,” without losing truth in the process.
You have confused agreement with your very narrow, nuanced, and ultimately uneducated view of the world with sophistication and correctness. Unfortunately (actually thankfully) the blog title is correct and truth not only wins, but trumps such sophistry in the final analysis.
It appears that what most posters here need is someone loving enough to continue to uphold the banner of truth, particularly on a blog so aptly named. I assume at some point, usually when arguments have failed, I will have my posts banned, as sometimes those who claim to uphold it (truth) are the weakest at defending their adulterated versions of it.
Until then (and after) I refuse to accept your p**s-poor definition of “manners,” as it is too closely aligned with those pastors, and “theologians” in Germany who went along (to get along) with Adolph Hitler, rather than truly stand for truth.
Today, in my life, in the battle between Gene and God – God wins!
My particular sin battles do not involve same-sex attraction (and action), but they are no less sinful. I am not pointing fingers at GLBT as if somehow they are more sinful than I am. What I am writing is that we all do better to acknowledge the fact of the sinfulness of our passions to the degree God informs us that they are so.
Again Jeff, you are embarassing yourself.
You compare the finest and most loving of Christian theologians with those who supported Hitler and the Nazis….a sure sign of someone who knows he is losing an arguement.
You take an inferior and disproven position on what is sin. We know better (having better theologians, and better churches than yours) and are, and will remain, unimpressed with your theology, which is now on a par with the Christian theoogy used here in the south that quoted the Bible to support slavery, no women in the pulpit, etc.
Sorry Jeff…but, you seem to think this is a theological debate that is still going on, much like a racist in Alabama who thinks he needs to explain to unthinking people why some racism is good, etc. Its a perfect analogy. The debate is over. Bishop Robinson and the Episcopal Church ended it, the great theologians of the Presbyterian seminaries, some of whom I have known personally, and are men and women who have dedicated their life to scholarship and Gods service, ended it. The Lutherans ended it. And yes Jeff, God ended it, and we are right, and you are wrong. You are only right about one thing…God wins. And, that happening, so does we who will live in a more loving and progressive and world who welcomes us as who God made us to be. Gay.
We are right. You are wrong. We have better credentials, Biblical knowledge, and grace on our side, and all importantly, God. Gay people are no more or less sinful than you are Jeff. But, the mere face we are Gay does not play into it in of itself.
You have nothing to offer us on this topic Jeff. Truth has won. I know you meant well, and did not mean to insult and offend (yes…you did…but I know that was not the intent). The Christians here are unswerving on this, have heard all your sides opinions (which is all they are) and seen them countered by the theology (backed up by the finest Biblical exegesis) of the Church that shows the truth; we are gay, as we were made by God, and that in of itself is not sinful.
As per the athiests here, well…all you do there is offend, drive them farther from ever even considering the faith, which I have found many of them have an exquisite knowledge of….some of the fundamentalists who come here openly express shock at how well they know the Bible and theology, for many were raised in the Church, or are Jewish, but many of them….to be honest…and this will hurt, have left the church because of people who think like you Jeff. Think about that. And the “Well, is not my fault if the truth hurts” arguement wont fly. As I explained, better denominations and better Christians have already debunked your arguements, and the athiests…well, they dont care, and just find people like you so annoying that it makes them go and dedicate a few more hours volunteer time at the local GLBT youth center, etc.
Your time here is your own to waste. I was raised in a conservative congregation, and am an ordained elder Jeff. You wont be convincing me…or anyone else. You have insulted and offended (un-intentionally I know) us, which you need to realize.
We are due that apology, which I hope in time to see from you. It would be the humble, polite, and Christian thing to do.
And again, for your own sake, go and find a high quality congregation, and get a REAL thelogical education and relationship with God. From the Lutherans to the Episcopalians to the United Church of Christ to the Presbyterians there are many, many options available to you, whatever your background (be it Calvinist or not, high or low church, etc.)
Good luck to you Jeff.
I wish you well.
But, once again, dont presume to lecture us on that we already know, and which we have learned but the best and finest. You just look silly when you do
Jeff said “I’ve noticed most agnostics/atheists are not really interested in truth. To borrow from Al Gore, it’s too damn inconvenient.”.
LOL, that’s hilarious Jeff – quite a case of projection. If the truth is that your god exists show me the evidence
Jeff said “I suggest you take a hard look within and realize that you will never find permanent peace, real rest for your soul, and lasting contentment outside of His will for you.”.
Such delusions may help you feel superior but they don’t reflect reality in any way. Since I married my husband I’ve known a contentment I’ve never felt before, I’m extremely happy, almost to the point of euphoria, I often literally jump for joy. Meanwhile you pathetically troll gay blogs trying to pump yourself up at the expense of others. You’re a loser Jeff and probably always will be.
Jeff said “If someone’s house is on fire I am not more loving to them by shielding them from that fact.”.
The problem is that you’re only imagining their house is on fire – it isn’t and to have you break the door down, smash the windows and soak the interior with water is only needless destruction. Go play with your imaginary sky-buddy and leave us alone to live in peace, contentment and happiness.
Jeff said “My particular sin battles do not involve same-sex attraction (and action), but they are no less sinful. I am not pointing fingers at GLBT as if somehow they are more sinful than I am.”.
Few statements an anti-gay christian makes illustrate their idiocy better than that. Like the fool you are you think you’re being generous and concilliatory by saying gayness isn’t any worse a sin but in fact you are spouting a grotesque insult and are too stupid to know it. The problem with your idea of sin is that frequently such “sin” is not in any way a wrongdoing. Gayness harms no one and brings people together to love and support each other. For you to equate that with your various wrongdoings is proposterous and disgusting. You are an evil person Jeff.
Gene,
I’m in no way embarrassed. I have merely stated the truth. Theologians are not better who spout dogma we can resonate and agree with unless the doctrine they espouse is also true. In fact you do not have better credentials on your side of this argument, but, even if you did God’s Word is not decided by a 2/3 majority vote.
I personally have a 140+ IQ, two graduate degrees, and a lifetime of post-graduate theological education, but whether I did or not would not add one shred of veracity to my claim. God’s Word is clear on the subject. The only way to support an opposing theological view is to obfuscate that word in various ways. Period.
Yes, you in all likelihood were born gay. That is immaterial. If you understand anything about Calvinism at all you understand that, theologically speaking, we are all born with a proclivity to various sinful behaviors.
There appears to be very strong evidence of a genetic disposition to alcoholism too, but that doesn’t mean alcoholics cannot develop mastery over it, and some degree of deliverance from it.
Priya Lynn,
I spend a great deal of my time defending the Christian faith to atheists and agnostics. I have seen literally hundreds of them confess faith in Christ, often after years of denying He ever lived (an unsustainable position, historically) but this is not the forum for that and I will not abuse it.
I don’t know you well enough to declare (metaphorically) that your house is on fire, but I do know God’s word on homosexual behavior (not essence, or being) is clear.
If you don’t believe there is a God, then you might as well also ignore any counsel He purportedly gives on the subject.
Your pet issue doesn’t appear to be God anyway, as you would have a bone to pick with Gene too if that was the case.
As for “trolling gay blogs” I most assuredly did not. Someone sent me the link. I read the initial article that started this thread. I disagreed and noticed there was a place to offer my opinion.
I love every gay person I personally know and feel no compulsion to pigeonhole them or stereotype them as a group. Neither do I believe that lying to someone is a good strategy for friendship development.
With respect, there is an exact and parallel equation between the sin I was born into, and the sin of homosexuality whether that seems evil to you or not. It’s a theological discussion you may not fully appreciate, since you appear to consider yourself an atheist.
Jeff said “I’m in no way embarrassed. I have merely stated the truth. Theologians are not better who spout dogma we can resonate and agree with unless the doctrine they espouse is also true. In fact you do not have better credentials on your side of this argument, but, even if you did God’s Word is not decided by a 2/3 majority vote.”.
None of that dogma is true Jeff and it was decided by primitive bronze age goatherders pretending to speak for a god.
Jeff said “There appears to be very strong evidence of a genetic disposition to alcoholism too, but that doesn’t mean alcoholics cannot develop mastery over it, and some degree of deliverance from it.”.
Not a valid analogy. Alcoholism hurts people, gayness does not. There’s a reason to fight alcoholism, there’s no reason to fight that which brings people together to love and support each other. What you’re doing is destructive and evil.
Jeff said “I spend a great deal of my time defending the Christian faith to atheists and agnostics. I have seen literally hundreds of them confess faith in Christ, often after years of denying He ever lived.”.”
Wow. I can’t believe you’re so stupid as to think any atheist is going to believe your hilarious boasts – you’ve done nothing of the sort.
Jeff said “I do know God’s word on homosexual behavior (not essence, or being) is clear.”.
You know no such thing. You’ve been lead to believe the bigotries of bronze age goat herders are the word of a god – they are not. You are in denial of reality.
Jeff said “If you don’t believe there is a God, then you might as well also ignore any counsel He purportedly gives on the subject.”.
Nonsense. I have an obligation to tell the truth to people you might deceive with your destructive lies. No way will I sit idly by and have you attempt to crush people’s spirit with lies.
Jeff said “I love every gay person I personally know and feel no compulsion to pigeonhole them or stereotype them as a group. Neither do I believe that lying to someone is a good strategy for friendship development.”.
You don’t know what love is Jeff, christians like you have bastardized the meaning of the word. What you call love is really an desire to control others. You’d claim to love murderes and rapists. To love someone is to be delighted at being around them, to get pleasure from who they are as people. No christian claiming to love murderers actually feels that way about them, no christian claiming to love every person actually feels that way about people they barely know. No, what you mean by “love” is “I seek to control you and force you to live acording to my whims because it gives me trivial pleasure to not have the knowledge that someone somewhere is doing something I don’t approve of. No Jeff, you cheapen the word and use it indiscriminately, what I feel for my husband is most certainly not what you feel for any gay person.
Jeff said “With respect, there is an exact and parallel equation between the sin I was born into, and the sin of homosexuality whether that seems evil to you or not.”.
Jeff making unsupported assertions won’t make them true. Your religion is absurd – no one inherits the sin of an ancient ancestor, yet that is the basis of your religion. I am not responsible for the wrongdoings of an ancient relative, yet that is the basis for your crazy religion. Punishing an innocent person doesn’t absolve another of a wrongdoing yet that is the basis of your religion. Your religion is nonsensical, childish, illogical, and stupid and for you to claim there is a parallel between gayness and any wrongdoing is absurd and baseless. You have never and you will never convince any atheist of your delusions by simply asserting insanity is truth.
I asked you once already Jeff, show me the evidence or shut the f**k up.
Jeff said, “I personally have a 140+ IQ, two graduate degrees, and a lifetime of post-graduate theological education . . .”
Being highly intelligent doesn’t necessarily mean you are not insane – or not gullible, or not superstitious, or not willfully ignorant.
Based upon your posts here, it seems safe to say that your “lifetime of post-graduate theological” “knowledge” came from indoctrination, not education. It is clear that the concepts of evidence, reasoning, and facts are irrelevant trivialities in your narrow world. It is sad that a highly intelligent person would reject the vast collection of human knowledge in favor of ancient superstitious beliefs.
I could accumulate a lifetime of knowledge about astrology, but so what? It’s still b******t.
Since the last two posters completely missed the point I will restate it: I have in no way here attempted to make a case for theism. That case can be made. It is strong. It has been strong enough that, with the empowerment of the Holy Spirit, I have seen hundreds of former atheists receive Christ in my thirty-five years of public ministry.
Your protestations notwithstanding I will not hijack the direction of this thread to make point by point rebuttals proving (or strengthening) the case for God’s existence.
The points I have been making go to the heart of appropriate responses for the people who already believe that He exist.
For example: to a subset of readers on this blog the alcoholism analogy is appropriate, because they would like to be free from this sin but have been convinced to justify it by errant theologians who twist the clear meaning of Scripture. Whether you see the harm in their behavior or not is not germane, because they do see it, and they are looking for someone to shoot straight with them about it.
If one person sees the truth and responds to it then this brief writing exercise has not been in vain.
I went to college (undergrad) with Dennis Jernigan, a well-known former homosexual. By his own testimony he is grateful for loving but firm responses from segments of the body of Christ that stood for the truth of the fact that deliverance was/is available.
He has been free for almost thirty years.
Priya,
When I wrote, “If you don’t believe there is a God, then you might as well also ignore any counsel He purportedly gives on the subject.” it was in no way to ask you to stop talking, but to inform you that you are not the intended audience for my responses. You of course may comment as much as the editor here sees fit. I love reading your responses.
I was only telling you that I have intentionally not couched my words for the consumption of non-believers. What I stated was empirically obvious. If I don’t believe there is a God, or gods, I am under no obligation to discern or obey His (their) will.
You seem to look for fights even when people are agreeing with you. That’s one reason I get such a kick out of your responses.
Finally, this format doesn’t lend itself all that well to anything much more than assertions. You are making plenty of them, as am I. An assertion is not only something that cannot be substantiated, but (more importantly) something that is stated without substantiation.
I am (academically) assuming a knowledge base for those my comments are aimed at reaching. Whether or not you have that knowledge is debatable, but again, not really germane. You may even know more than I do and simply come to another conclusion for a variety of reasons, some of which may be more social than intellectual. Again, that doesn’t matter, at least not to critically answer my charges.
To be meaningfully engaged they have to be addressed (as Gene has) in the way and manner that I have made them. The world view prism cannot be so foreign to the points as to create a secondary debate, at least not if you are trying to involve me in it.
That’s a choice I get to make. I make (win and lose) those arguments in the appropriate forums.
You, of course, are free to discuss anything you please, but as I run a few blogs of my own I know I am always happiest when posts stay “on topic” for the thread.
Priya,
Just one more thing: You happen to be wrong about the occupations of those who wrote most of Scripture, but laying that aside it is apparent you have a major prejudice against “bronze age goat herders,” as if such people are somehow unable to hear and speak for God.
Which part renders them incapable? Is it the fact that they care for herds of animals, or the period of time in which they lived that galls you the most? Is it the specific combination? Is there a pertinent historically verifiable reason that God would not reveal Himself to someone who herds goats? Is God limited to only certain ages and epochs of time? What is it you have against bronze age goat herders?
You appear to just be spouting anti-God dogma, but surely you wouldn’t do that.
I doubt you’d be so cock sure of yourself if goat herders had lobbyists or PACs. Or perhaps you’d think differently if you actually knew any goat herders. What if, God forbid, your own brother became a goat herder? Then I bet you’d sing a different tune.
You’re probably too literal to understand the subtext of anything I’ve just written, but just in case you aren’t I think it’s important to state that I am personally offended by your comments, because some of my very best friends are goat herders.
Jeff, as a punishment for your insulting tone and use of the word “free”, thus inferring that being Gay is some form of inslavement, a 250.00 donation has been made to my local Gay and Lesbian Youth Center in your honor.
I told you the athiests here would eat you alive (which they have).
The Christians (and Jews) in here will do the same. As I pointed out, and your just proclaiming otherwise does not change, we have the best theologians, the best denominations, and are on the right side with God. Of course, to those who do not believe in God, none of this matters…and I understand why, since you insult them (“free”. Do you ENJOY being insulting?
Have you no shame?
Whoever the man you mention is, he is just a bi guy like me…he is just…I assume, faithful to one woman, just as I am faithful to one man. Neither of us are straight)
Now, I will present you a chance to redeem yourself, since you embarassed yourself earlier?
1) are you so dense you honestly think the religious position on GLBT issues is so clear that WHOLE DENOMINATIONS, most of whose theologians and Bible teachers are heterosexual, just decided to open up a can of worms? Are you truly so close minded and affected by conservative theology that this thought has not occured to you, and that you call all of their scholarship and dedication to the Church? Do you REALLY think the theological understandings of the best and brightest, stated in a very Gay unfriendly environment of several decades ago, was done…for fun…? For profit? For kidcks and giggles? They made superb cases for it…and whole denominations, looking at the scholarship, have made the often painful move to do what is right…NOT what was popular in mens eyes, but what was right. Don’t you see it would have been easier to hide behind conservative theology, even if they did not believe it, like cowardly Baptists?
Your very statement made everyone on this page roll their eyes…for it showed just how very little you know.
I expect a concise, sensible and respectable answer from you to the above question.
2) what is your religious backgroud? Are you a member of a first class denomination, or some lesser fundamentalist sect?
3) God is on our side here. Never forget that. Just saying otherwise does not make it so. And, as I pointed out, churches that are better than yours (I assume, you may be from the far right of a respectable church, and holding a divergent opinion, but, I am assuming a lowly fundamentalist background)
Learn some manners, and you may learn a lot.
I have an IQ of 130. Ya’ got me by ten. Woo. I hold two degres, with one being a graduate degree, and one of them is a degree Church history with a focus on theological and historical developments in Byzantium and their effect in historical and chruch development in eastern Europe and Kievan Russ. I sometimes lecture on Calvinist theology. I am ordained an elder…and you?
I would not have brought it up..and, being right, did not need to, but, if we are in a ‘pi$$*&#’ contest, guess what, I outrank you.
The athiests think you an idiot. The religious see you as holding easily disproven and bigoted theology on a par with those who quote the Bible to support slavery and the second class treatement of women.
Our opinions will not be changing. If you wish to continue reading here, please, do so…you may learn something. But you are here in a purely learning situation.
You have nothing to teach we have not already disproven, or seen disproven by far, far better physicians, theologians, ministers and scholars than you.
I await your response, which I expect to be better mannered than previous posts. Note, if some of us have been sharp with you, remember, you have been spreading a discredited message used to oppress and marginalize…even damage due to the mental anguish of disproven quakcery and psuedo religion/psuedo science of the ex gay industry, and contain no terms that insult whole groups and classes of people. If insulting terms are included, it will just be yet more proof of the hollowness of your arguments.
Jeff, please provide some compelling evidence of your religion’s validity. You might have a smidgen of credibility if you could demonstrate that the adoption of your religion came as a result of exhaustive comprehensive unbiased research into all of the world’s religions. Although the research would take many years, I don’t know how else anyone could legitimately conclude that a particular religion is the correct one. One outcome of the research could be to reject them all, and then invent a new one (lots of people have done that).
Otherwise, I assume that you simply adopted the religion of your parents, a prevalent religion in your geographic location, or maybe you just picked one that felt compatible with your personality. And, if so, your arguments come merely from indoctrination bolstered by the contents of a holy book. But all religions involve indoctrination and holy books, so why should I accept yours and reject the others?
You need to understand that if you had been born in Saudi Arabia, it is overwhelmingly likely that you would now be worshiping Allah, and extolling the Magic Truth of the Quran instead of the Magic Truth of the Bible. Or, if you had been born in Utah, it is overwhelmingly likely that you would now be extolling the “truth” of Joe Smith’s gold-plates tale. Or, if you had been born in India, it’s quite likely you would be Hindu.
So let’s see the evidence that your religion is the correct one.
Gene,
As I have indicated, I have intentionally not used an appeal to authority other than Scripture, and the Lord, however, my education is equal to yours (2 degrees – one with an emphasis in Comparative Religion Th.M). I am also ordained and pastored for 24 years before entering a full-time lecturing and evangelistic ministry. I travel throughout the world preaching/teaching/debating many of the finest minds and authorities, as well as lecturing on various campuses.
As to your question; Yes I have no shame, but then I’ve written nothing to be ashamed of. Again, this is no p#%$^ing contest, at least in my book, but you are using poor proof for your position. In a debate over truth, the person with the most theologians, and the biggest churches does not win. However, that being said, the largest and fastest growing churches throughout the world are those that hold to the conservative, traditional view of this issue. On that basis, by your criteria, your argument fails.
You are right that I have much to learn. I am on a lifelong quest to do so. As to your question I find the arguments made by gay affirming theologians to be lacking in merit. I do not find them intellectually compelling, historically accurate, or theologically sound.
Specifically: I commend to you a debate which may be viewed on Youtube between Michael L. Brown and Harry Knox. Brown’s position in this debate expresses my take on the subject matter quite well, which is something I’m not inclined to waste this blog owner’s band width doing here.
Viewing that may confirm for you that you are wrong about the science of ex-gay ministries as well.
I also have to disagree with you about atheists here on your blog. I’m sure they are as bright as anywhere else, but they can’t very well win an argument with me that I constrain myself not to enter.
Please point out to me in what instance I have displayed a lack of civility as I am perplexed by your charge that I have had poor manners.
I have not (and would not) insulted any person or group. I cannot help what someone else may misconstrue and interpret as an insult. If that’s the case then Jesus Himself must be liable for such an indictment, as many are offended by much that He espouses.
Twins reunited.
Jeff, your tone and lack of due humility have resulted in another donation, in your honor, being made to the Gay and Lesbian Youth Center, and to a local seminary group.
Let me explain to you why you just lost all credability.
One, you made a self confession of being a mere evangelical, thus losing all academic credentials. NO real intellectual, real theologian or thinking person would mention Brown as a reference. Is like saying “I am a map maker….listen to me, and if not me, then listen to the president of the flat earth society”.
Notice I did NOT say biggest. Only evangelicals, who are obcessed with numbers, are obcessed with having the most people in the pews. When I correctly pointed out the best churches, I pointed out that doing the right thing is not always popular. I said BEST churches, and named them. YOU countered with “But the fastest growing don’t agree with you”. Yeah. Like Mormons, and pentacostal “church’s” and the Benny Hinn crowd. You mistake size with good theology.
I said best. Not exhibiting a cancerous level of growth (often with no fruit to show for it) You never mentioned your denomination. Something to hide?
Where have you been incivil? To be blunt, are you just stupid?
I put one example of it in quotes in a previous post. Your whole mistaken idea, being that Gay people need the fundamentalist trash version of Christianity (not an insult…just an honest assessment of your branch of Christianity) to “Free” us from being as God made us is INCREDIBLEY RUDE AND INSULTING. Many of us here have SURVIVED, and I choose that term on purpose, “Ex Gay” treatment.
It NEVER works
Cannot work
And HURTS people.
I regularly have a man cry on my shoulder whos fundy whack job “holiness tabernackle Baptest praise and worship center” “Church” parades him as a “successful ex gay, cleansed by the spirit!”. He comes to me to talk, because I have promised not to “turn him in” and offer, hard as it is to do so, no condemnation, when his guilt over living this lie is JUST TO PAINFUL.
I know a SCORE of people like him Jeff.
We ALL here know a score of people like him Jeff.
We get to clean up the messes that religious rights “Ex Gay” obcession leads to, over, and over, and over.
We see happy gay and lesbian families living honest and Godly lives in churches that welcome, ordain, and love us….and, then we get to see the emotional and personal messes (the same people we see being proclaimed as stories of how people like us can be made “free”…the insult of it!) “ex gay” groups cause.
We get to see people like you, who are like computer viruses in our lives. Certainly you have seen a scam where a pop up comes up warning “YOu have a virus” and you open it, and in doing so, actually GET the computer virus…which the people who gave it to you will then, if you pay them, remove for you. Well, guess what Jeff…THATs you.
There is a pastor…on Marthas Vinyard if memory serves :) who holds your ideas, but is (for now) allowed to remain in my denomination. His group (small, discredited..seen as an embarassment even by most of the few in the denomination who support it..I admit it has been far more helpful than hurtful to my cause) does just what you are trying to do now. Convince us we are sick because he is seen as such an a*s), so that your version of Christianity can cure us.
We have seen the “cure”…and the total failure rate…and the lives destroyed by “ex gay” groups and the religious sects that back them.
And you have the gall to ask how you have insulted.
You mention you have been to conditioned to accept the superior thoelogy and reasoning of the better churches (the mainlines as a rule) and quote an open and unappologic bigot like Brown, and you wonder why we are insulted. (and why you are given no credability)
And, you seem to think that people have the right to insult, using Jesus as a cover. As I have explained, those of us who are religious have seen better theology than yours, and the true Church. Dont worry. As society changes, your group will change over time to, just as the conservative churches of centuries ago that supported slavery with scripture have all made mea culpas. But, you see this shift in attitudes among young evangelicals happening (and the corresponging lack of attention on this topic from the pulpit, and change in attitude even among the rank and file evangelical community and young pastors) so, you know this. If even your own are seeing the light, and better, older, and more established churches are seeing the light, in time, if not you, then your grandkids will.
And you presume to teach us anything.
And you wonder why there are so many athiests here.
The more I look at the churches that support “ex gay” ministry, the more I am amazed there are not more athiests.
Grow up Jeff. And wherever those degrees came from, raise your standards, find a path in ministry that helps, not hurts people, and realize that wat you have to sell…no one here wants. The religious have better, and you have so poisoned the well with the athiests that they are not interested.
Oh, and in closing, I will point out how you have lost to the Athiests here. Lots of young people with little or no religious life read this site.
Guess who, from reading your statements, and theirs, comes across as most convincing? You, or the athiests…as you said yourself, you did not see the need to list your theological arguements here, thus “saving bandwith”. but the athiests, who are people who have lived with this issue (being gay themselves) 24-7, countered you assumptions with sharp questions and points.
Overall, a very poor showing on your part Jeff. Very poor indeed.
Oh GAWD, it’s a Calvinist. Run away, quickly, for they are the most obnoxious of Evangelicals, having been trained to believe not only that they are the smartest of all people, but also the smartest AMONG wingnut evangelicals. It’s very cute in small doses, because they truly do co-opt the language of education and intelligence, but they use it to support ideas and beliefs so stupid they’re almost unbelievable, and more than that, their inherent message is flat-out evil. “God chose, FOR NO REASON AT ALL OTHER THAN ‘GRACE,’ to draw certain folks to him and be his elect, while predestining others of his own creation to eternal damnation through no fault of their own! We don’t know why he picked us, and why so many of us are white and upper middle class, but that’s just how it is! When we’re in heaven, you’ll be sorry, blah blah blah blah blah…”
Seriously, y’all. I used to attend a Calvinist church. Dumbest, most smug people on the planet.
Oh, and my IQ is 144, not that that’s necessarily a measure of anything, but Jeffers felt the need to show us how big his was, so, ya know, I’m bigger.
Gene,
I am not obsessed with those numbers. I was responding to your obsession since you went on repeatedly about having the “best churches and the best theologians.” By your criteria, and using the churches you cite we can be assured that Christianity will not survive into the next century.
Evan,
Again, not my obsession. Merely responding to others who seem obsessed with such nonsense. I have repeatedly written that truth trumps all of that. If my IQ was 80 I would still be representing the clear truth of Scripture. In both cases I was responding to the conversation where it was taken by others.
To illustrate: “Jeff, you have no standing because you’re not able to add 2 + 2 in base 10 mathematics.”
“Well actually I don’t see how that matters, but the answer is 4″
“Look everyone, Jeff is an idiot because he thinks proving he can add 2 + 2 adds meaningfully to this discussion.”
Such tactics, I am sure, are beneath most of the readers of this blog.
Gene,
It is you who have zero credibility. I cannot lose a battle I have not even enjoined. The atheist perspective is one I routinely engage in other forums, with a lifetime of ministry success in that area. I have been confining my comments to respond to the actual article which started this thread, and particularly to those Gay Christians who began their own responses to it.
As for my denomination it is straight non-denominational (even trans-denominational) historic Christianity. You might call it a “Bible” church. Does that label help you? Does it make it easier for you to dismiss what the Bible clearly teaches?
These retorts are seriously lacking in any substantive arguments. Take Michael Brown for example: You smear him as a bigot without so much as a smattering of proof.
If I tell you the carpet is green it does not indicate that I am prejudice against other colors of carpet. No matter how badly you want the color to be brown, or blue, or purple, it is still green. Yours is a classic case of blaming the messenger.
For people who believe the Scriptures, you are asking them to choose you over God. I choose you to love, respect, work with, worship with and honor, but not as my fount of knowledge of right and wrong. As Paul wrote I have “become your enemy for telling you the truth.”
Gene,
Just a little FYI. People are either ‘on,” or “off” when it comes to accepting the Lordship of Christ. Nothing I write here can condemn atheists to a worse fate than they are already bound for. Will they now go to hell number two?
That sounds callous, but if a steady diet of gay Christians telling them that the Bible is so unclear as to be elastically translated to suddenly not mean what it was universally accepted to have meant for centuries isn’t turning them from any hope of a future relationship I don’t know what would.
The whole tenor of this blog before my recent spat has been sufficient to reinforce their bias.
Evan,
I don’t happen to be a five point Calvinist, but was again responding to charges. The point I alluded to “Total Depravity” is hardly unique to Calvinism.
I frankly am disappointed with the infantile level of discourse and unveiled vitriol that has dripped from the keyboards of this group of “scholars.” It amounts to “tell us who you hang with so we can dismiss you out of hand, because they’re probably on a list of those we hate. there are soooo many.”
That’s no better than lumping all gays into a group characterized by those who march every year in San Fransisco. It’s a “guilt by association” fallacy that keeps people from examining the merits of anything they disagree with.
Gene,
I certainly want a ministry path that helps people, but I find your definition of how that’s done wholly lacking in Biblical foundation.
By that definition I could affirm any number of sins, of course including my own, as more helpful to emotional health than the affirming of deliverance.
Again, in the battle of which authority to place my faith in I’m going to go with the Lord God, with no apologies.
I have many gay friends, some of whom take similar positions to those represented here. I also have ex-gay friends. Their path to freedom started with at least the acknowledgment that they were in bondage. I have no stones to throw at anyone. I too am a sinner. I have not attacked, but I refuse to defend anyone’s behavior (beginning with my own) that God abhors.
As for my intended audience; there may be hundreds of readers who never chime in, but see clearly which side of this argument is being carried by a reasonable person. The more you respond unreasonably the more my case is actually buttressed. Please continue. If nothing else you continue to demonstrate how little real theological rigor you apply to your own position. In the process you’ve all been a big help to me in forwarding my own.
Jeff,
“As for my intended audience; there may be hundreds of readers who never chime in, but see clearly which side of this argument is being carried by a reasonable person.”
Like a broken clock, unwittingly, you are occasionally correct.
Richard,
That would be twice a day. That’s got to beat the average, at least on this page.
For all the hyper-sensitive that’s just a joke.
Jeff, to claim Brown is not a bigot puts you in the zero credability zone. Zub zero.
You admit that you are a “non denominational”…more zero credability.
As per those churches not surviving int othe nxt century, you mean like, the Southern Baptists and Salvation Army, which are homophobes AND declining in numbers, like almost every church in the western world?
Lastly, Jeff, if you really believe what you wrote about my lack of rigor, when you wont even express your theology here, and just disregard the men and women, and whole denominations that have better theology, AS WELL as ignoring our personal stories, and the staggering damage that the “ex gay” industry has caused so many people, then I feel good, because it means we have already won.
There is a reason we have reached a tipping point in the culture, in the church, and in society as a whole, and indeed passed it.
Its people who say the things you say, ignore what they do not like, insult the audience they are speaking to, and honestly do not realize how they sound to the overall culture.
Keep yakking. As Even so brilliantly pointed out, you are showing your true colors…and not impressing people the way you think.
You have no stones to throw you say? Yet state you consider us in “bondage” when I have explained to you that better Christians than you have shown this not to be the case. Are you so stupid you dont realize that this was throwing a stone?
The only “bondage” any gay person is in relatiing to their gayness is the self loathing and hatred that people like you put them in. You owe them, and us, and yes God, an apology for that, and any Gay person who would have you as a friend is a fool indeed, with no sense of self worth or dignity.
And lastly, you do not know any “ex gay” people Jeff. I patiently explained that to you. You know some bi people who are filled with religiou fera, or fear of being abandonded by their families who are in relationships with people of the opposite sex now, putting a great face on it like the guy I told you about, but crying one someones shoulder as he does mine. We have seen this over, and over, and over.
Get an mainline, first class theological education Jeff. Till then, like the minister I told you about in Mass., also a Jeff as it happens, just keep yakking your nonsense, and wondering why fewer and fewer people are holding your view.
Gene,
Regardless of whatever response this final comment draws I will bow out and let this discussion continue absent my viewpoint. I have handily dispatched you with reason and theology and I have no motivation to continue to the point of any further humiliation for you.
Only in the vocabulary of Gay Theology (and nowhere else) is “freedom” a synonym for “bondage.” Real freedom is available through Christ.
There is no substantive reason for you to discount and dismiss the personal experiences of hundreds of ex-gays other than your stubborn refusal to validate anything that threatens your own misguided and narrow conclusions.
I am sorry, for you, that this fact offends you, but it is merely factual. Your judgmental spirit smacks of the worst kind of fundamentalism – short on fun, and not too damn mental. Thank you for defining, pigeon-holing and labeling my gay friends. They’ll not be surprised with your bigoted, narrow minded view of them.
That they should endure this from one of their own is, however, most unfortunate.
You may very well be right about the direction of our culture towards the re-categorization of this issue, but, as I’ve indicated, truth is not decided by a majority vote.
All types of hetero-sexual sin are still sin regardless of the fact that they are in response to natural urges, and such sin seems to be embraced by large and growing segments of society, at least throughout western civilization. I am not obsessed with sexual sin (categorically), but it is the topic at hand.
Finally, as this is my last post, I plead with those who are here just “kicking the tires.” There is deliverance in Christ, even if I was the only one proclaiming it, or even if I am someday convinced otherwise. His word will always be true. You can find rest in Him.
To the owner of this blog: Thanks for letting me air an alternate view. You are most gracious. Very often views like mine are censored, particularly when they draw such obvious rancor from the regular contributors.
Most of you missed a good opportunity to engage in a rational defense of your positions. That is a shame.
Jeff…you miss the whole point.
You were not rational…and we saw that.
And you refused to listen to the lives of men and women who have lived through the “ex gay” nightmare…so you had no credability.
And there are many Christians here, such as myself, who have extended the offer, and seen it accepted, from denominations who see us as who we are, and accept us as God made us to be.
Lastly, you insulted us, and me personally. I tell you of the pain of seeing the “success stories” of “ex gay therapy” crying on my shoulders before they go back to their fundamentalist (and yes, in this case Calvinist) congregations. I tell you of the pain we have seen over and over and over when “ex gay” “Healing” fails….and you have the unmitigated GALL to say;
“There is no substantive reason for you to discount and dismiss the personal experiences of hundreds of “ex gays” (sic) other than you stuborn refusal to validate anything that threatens your own misguided and narrow conclusions”.
The….audacity. The cruelty…it amazes me.
Majortiy does not make right…being right, makes right.
Lastly, yeah, if you have people in your life who can be friends with you, even as they know what you think of them, their souls, and that they are damaged and slaves in need of freedom, then they are sad, sad people with way, way to low of standards of whom they are friends with. Polite acquaintances…sure. Friends? Nah.
They are nor more rational than you.
Thanks for the examples by the way. I had breakfast with three hetero college students who have been reading here. You have been more help than you know.
Oh, and one more point. People who are not racists do not NEED to engage in a “rational debate” with the KKK.
Peopel who are not anti semites do not need to engage in a “rational debate” debate with anti semites.
People who are not homophobic (be they straight or gay) do not need to engage in “rational debate” with the likes of you. It is a morally settled issue.
You lost.
Goodbye
Jeff:
I woke up with my partner this morning and our two amazing pets. We looked out the window into the beautiful countryside of Vermont. He went to work and then I went to a wonderful neighborhood breakfast spot. I spoke to my father for a few minutes about last night’s Miami Heat victory over the Celtics and Osama bin Laden’s demise!
Now, I am working to expose self-righteous jerks like yourself as the bigots they truly are.
Jeff — what “pain” are you referring to in my life? Things are quite amazing. Though you cause me no pain, you are a pain in the a*s and an ignoramus. I find it pathetic and tragic that you are projecting your own emptiness, insecurity, and dissatisfaction onto me.
My life is wonderful — yet you are spending your time on my website on weekends instead of being with your own family. Is there an absence of love in your household that makes you prefer spending enormous amounts of time spouting BS on this site instead of enjoying your friends and family? It is quite clear which one of us has found true peace — and which one is empty and searching for answers that will never be found in the false and unsatisfying world of fundamentalism.
Jeff, please understand that I love my life. You have nothing to offer me. I find your theology cheap, shallow and empty — much like you. If I was forced to trade places with a pompous a*s like yourself I would strongly consider suicide.
Fortunately, I will never be faced with such a dreadful choice (or life/death sentence).
I strongly suggest that you move along and try to find a weak-minded activist somewhere else that you can convert. You are failing miserably with your efforts here and flat out humiliating yourself.
Do you not realize this? Are you really that dense? You should leave while you still have a shard of dignity.
Jeff,
“Real freedom is available through Christ.”
No. Real freedom (from the bondage and shackles of superstitious religious indoctrination) is available through education where you could learn to utilize reason, evaluate evidence, and discern genuine facts.
Oh, and by the way, I don’t believe for a moment that you’ve “seen hundreds of former atheists receive Christ in [your] thirty-five years of public ministry.” I’ve been around long enough to know how Christians like you play fast and loose with the atheist-label – because you are so eager to boast about all the atheists you have converted. The only problem is that they were not really atheists. They were just irreligious people who just never gave much thought to the issue. I doubt that you have ever converted one atheist who had seriously investigated the question of god’s existence.
But let’s put all this disagreement aside, and focus on our vast area of common ground: Of the thousands of gods that humans have worshiped, you reject all of them, except one. I only reject one more of them than you do.