Yeah, so this happened in Pennsylvania:
A 28-year-old Upper Darby man has been charged with murder after telling police that he stoned a 70-year-old man to death when the man made homosexual advances toward him, authorities say.
John Joe Thomas, 28, of Sunshine Road in Upper Darby, spent almost every day with 70-year-old Murray Seidman at Seidman’s Lansdowne home, police say. Days before Seidman’s body was found on Jan. 12, Thomas allegedly beat Seidman to death with a sock full of rocks.
Thomas told authorities that he read in the Old Testament that homosexuals should be stoned to death. When Seidman allegedly made homosexual advances toward him over a period of time, Thomas said he received a message in his prayers that he must end Seidman’s life, according to court documents.
Lovely. It’s always funny when we argue with Religious Right figures who claim to take the Bible literally, and consider it inerrant, because they will bark some Leviticus at you, but they know they can’t get away with what their Bible really says, in 21st century civilized society. So, obviously what happened in Pennsylvania is completely sick and disgusting, but I just want everybody to remember that the deranged killer wasn’t actually mistaken about what the Bible said.
[h/t Joe]
I … eh … what!
I’m speechless. I cannot process this.
TRiG.
It is, of course, possible he’s making the “God wanted me to do it” claim in an effort to establish an insanity defense.
Actually, Evan, while Leviticus does say that men who lie with men shall be “put to death,” I know of no translation that prescribes stoning, or any particular method for that matter. All the versions I checked simply say “put to death.” So this idiot did not even follow to the letter the Book he claims is inerrant.
Having exhausted the semantic issue, he is still a pig who should never see the light of day again; at the age of twenty-eight, if this man was constantly making advances towards him, why did he continue to spend time with him?
As Alvin McEwen says, lies in the name of God are still lies.
But here’s the problem: Grace supersedes the Law. This stoning which was a part of the Law was done away with by Jesus’ death on the cross. I should not have to tell that to anyone claiming to be a “Christian” such as this murderer.
The false prophets at the anti-gay advocacy groups and “churches” seeking to take away the civil rights and then eradicate gay people from America are responsible for this outrage. They are the ones who convince people like this murderer that gay people are unworthy of rights, love, jobs, children and that we are the enem–when they are the ones leading our country (and this murderer) to hell.
The victim made no sexual advances to the defendant. The defendant had befriended the victim, and the victim subsequently made the defendant the sole executor and beneficiary of his will and estate. The defendant murdered the victim, and then tried to make out to police that somebody else had killed the victim and that he was overcome with grief and horror. The defendant killed the victim to get at the victim’s assets quicker.http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/118248574.html?cmpid=15585797
The defendant’s attempted alibi, that the victim made sexual advances at him, is a transparent and a load of hogwash.
I’ve read too many cases in the media and in print about this so called “gay panic” defense. It seems to be a common thing when a gay man or lesbian is beaten to death that this will be the first line of defense to come up. In fact, this line of defense makes it look like the offender was trying to protect himself against the big bad gay man.
Judging from reading the article:
“Thomas told authorities that he read in the Old Testament that homosexuals should be stoned to death. When Seidman allegedly made homosexual advances toward him over a period of time, Thomas said he received a message in his prayers that he must end Seidman’s life, according to court documents.”
What I see here is the offender(Joe John Thomas)is setting up the first line of defense: “…Seidman ALLEGEDLY made homosexual advances toward me over a PERIOD OF TIME.” Both Thomas and the news media set it up to look like this ALLEGEDLY took place. Now, we aren’t really SURE if it took place or not,we only have Thomas’ word on it. Remember, dead men tell no tales. He could use that as an excuse to justify his actions.
Another thing that bothers me about this story:
“John Joe Thomas, 28, of Sunshine Road in Upper Darby, spent almost EVERY DAY with 70-year-old Murray Seidman at Seidman’s Lansdowne home.”
Question: If Thomas had a problem with Mr.Seidman’s sexual orientation then why would he even GO to his house let alone associate himself with him for so many years? Was it one of those type of relations where “I’m okay with you being gay, just don’t try anything with me” type of deal or was it more than just that? Not saying that Thoma is justified in what he did, but it seems to me that he had no problem being AROUND this 70-year old man until this alleged incident took place.
Thirdly, there is this:
“A 28-year-old Upper Darby man has been charged with murder after telling police that he stoned a 70-year-old man to death”
“Thomas told authorities that he read in the Old Testament that homosexuals should be stoned to death… Thomas said he received a message in his prayers that he must end Seidman’s life, according to court documents.”
If he has this “divine” connection to the Lord Almighty,why would he tell Thomas to take the life of an innocent man? I have read, somewhere in the Bible, that even SATAN can sound like God. Maybe that is who he was talking to. I highly doubt that,though. I think what we are dealing with is a man who is either highly schizophrenic and not able to tell reality from fantasy or we are dealing with someone who is crazy…LIKE A FOX. He knew he did wrong so to cover his tracks, he devises this “the devil made me do it” defense or in this case “the Lord told me to do it.” I think God gets tired of having to be the blame for everyone else’s stupidity.
My take on this whole article is this: He knew the guy was gay, befriended the guy to lull him into a false sense of security and then, when Mr.Seidman was most vulnerable, Thomas took the rocks and smashed him repeatedly over the head until he died.
Hopefully Mr.Thomas will get a very heavy sentence for his crime.
I wish I were more surprised that this happened. I’ve seen these anti-gay religious wing-nuts getting more and more radical. This is really sad and really scary.
Scott Amundsen, was it really neccessary to draw such a disctinction–the Bible calls for death but not by stoning? Is that really such a major point. I think that it calls for death at all is reason enough it shouldn’t be taken as any kind of moral authority.
Johnny Joe is crazy like a fox. He deserves the death penalty himself for premeditated murder.
I’m no Christian, but there is a NEW testament as well as the old one. There is this funny little quote spoken by a Jewish carpenter that goes, “…he that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone…”
Well, it seems we found our sinless wonder, Mr John Joe Thomas! Let’s see if he can walk on water!
Actually, Michael (at 4), Jesus said that he didn’t come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it, and that not one letter should be changed of it. He also said that people who chose to pick and choose the old laws “for the sake of [their] tradition” were hypocrites. Common claims that he somehow revoked the old laws (including the Ten Commandments?) are apologetics and urban legend.
That being said, this is the s**t that should be expected when we live in a society where people are encouraged to push biblical literalism and the bible as the ultimate god-given moral guide, and any criticism of one’s beliefs is looked down upon. Whether legitimately crazy or simply lying about it, if the bible is the ultimate word of God and if his method of communication with God is exactly the same as every other Christian’s (supposedly valid) method of communication with God, then there’s nothing* saying that God didn’t tell him to do it. He and all the shitstains who quote Lev 18:22 aren’t very far from the people who do get away with stoning people to death because their religious law is allowed to trump human f*****g decency.
*Except the obvious option that the bible isn’t the ultimate word of God and that God doesn’t talk to people, of course.
Actually, Makyui, there has been some debate about that, going alllll the way back to when the three synoptics were first written. Saying it’s an urban myth is not quite correct. If you will check a copy of the New Testament, you’ll see that in the writing of Paul (authentic Paul, not those writing under his name), that a very good argument can be made for the old laws being void. Hence that whole ‘to circumcise or not to circumcise’ thing.
In the synoptic gospels, whether all the old laws (including circumcision) were to be followed or not varied.
In other words, you can argue it either way because the New Testament contradicts itself. Frequently, even. :)
Haha, Rae, it sure does. :)
Ohhh that Paul… It’s funny how many Christians place the words of Paul over the words of their christ. Especially since Paul never actually met Jesus, except through weird fever dreams or what the hell.
I am a devout Christian (meaning I believe in Jesus Christ) How horrible that people grow up without the Holy Spirit and proper teaching of what the message is in the Bible and not what the “print” says in writing…..
A very sad situation and example of present day dark age religion….
Please read Jesus words of love and forgiveness and KNOW that no where does Jesus condemn anyone! Love and salvation and MERCY and being one in God is Jesus message. Please hear and be comforted!
No thanks, Charles. I’m perfectly comforted without worrying about not being able to please a vengeful magic sky man.
Maybe you should read your own bible first before asking other people to do so, plzthx.
So as a Lesbian do I have the right to beat the crap out of all the straight men who won’t stop making advances at me, even AFTER I tell them I am gay.
Even the Jews in Jesus’ time thought stoning was an extreme punishment, and the Talmud laid out so many strict requirements to carry it out that it hardly ever happened. And then if the punishment WAS carried out, it wasn’t an ad hoc mob throwing stones at the offeder a la “woman caught in adultery” and all that b******t made up to demonize Jews.
SO the people who followed the “Old Testmanet” originally didn’t even agree with this crazy guy.
We have the gist of Jesus’ teachings and sayings, but when the Bible or people say, ‘Jesus said…..’, the simple answer is, we don’t know for sure exactly what He did and didn’t say. The first gospel (Mark, not Matthew) was written in about 60AD (CE). Christ didn’t have a stenographer following Him around recording everything word for word. *And* the western language translations we have are less than stellar (that goes for both testaments). I belong to an inclusive, progressive Episcopal church and we have no problem with questioning things and incorporating the findings of modern scholarship.
This is no different from the murder of Kato- Ugandan. Its absurd, and when i see people with bibles i tend to run further away from them– who knows- what they might have just read in Leviticus and may be planning to do.(stoning)
> This stoning which was a part of the Law was done away with by Jesus’ death on the cross.
No, that’s just how modern Christians attempt to justify cherry picking the Bible.
Jesus said, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law”
Of course, the apologists have have an excuse for THAT, too. Any modern Christian is forced to either be a (1) hypocrite, or (2) subscribe to an intricate web of often contradictory rationalizations. The rational solution — admitting that the Bible is bronze age fictions — is not available to them.
“[W]hen the Bible or people say, ‘Jesus said…..’, the simple answer is, we don’t know for sure exactly what He did and didn’t say. The first gospel (Mark, not Matthew) was written in about 60AD (CE). Christ didn’t have a stenographer following Him around recording everything word for word.”
Yes, absolutely.
I hope that this person is prosecuted to the fullest extent. I suspect the “gay panic” defense is bogus. He had time to think about it and still murdered this man. This in my book is premeditated and should result in spending the rest of his life behind bars.
The Gay (or Trans) Panic defense is always bogus. If a person is so freaked out by a gay or trans person that their first reaction is to murder them, then they’re definitely a danger to themselves and to society and need to be put away until they’re not a danger anymore. It shouldn’t be considered a justifiable response for even a second, and the fact that people have successfully used it is outrageous.
You’re right, this was premeditated. He had time to pray, to get a “response”, and then to gather up rocks to load his sock. The time for f*****g panic is long over.
“Please read Jesus words of love and forgiveness and KNOW that no where does Jesus condemn anyone!”
ENOUGH DAMMIT! Charles and all the other believers, would you all, right now, stop assuming many of us haven’t spent a lifetime reading and re-reading the bible, the Apocrypha, dissertations scholarly & populist, and praying and thinking and meditating, probably for many more years than you, Charles, even have been alive (you have the fervor of the youthful zealot). And if you grant that we thoughtful seekers of some sort of truth are indeed out here, please be aware that many, if not most of us, finally have come to the blessed conclusion that – listen carefully now – There. Is. No. God.
The sanctimony of believers is breathtaking.
Now let’s get to the simple, main point.
A man is dead.
He died in pain and probably great fear.
A man is dead.
Murdered.
And all the Christians can do is rush to the defence of their belief system. Actually, your belief system makes plenty of accommodation for murderous types who need to justify their hate, in fact the US is brim-full with mad followers of 2000-year-old blood cults (the three monotheistic desert religions) who think murdering us Queers is just fine and dandy. Why would you want to be part of any religion that apologizes for murderers and wife-beaters?
Makyui said “Actually, Michael (at 4), Jesus said that he didn’t come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it, and that not one letter should be changed of it. He also said that people who chose to pick and choose the old laws “for the sake of [their] tradition” were hypocrites. Common claims that he somehow revoked the old laws (including the Ten Commandments?) are apologetics and urban legend.”.
Exactly Makyui. And if they really believe the new testament means the law has been abolished, which laws? Where is the list of laws that have been abolished and the list of which laws have not? If the law calling for gays to be killed is abolished, what about the law against murder? On what grounds can you say one law is abolished and another isn’t? On no grounds, christians decide which laws are abolished and in effect by deciding which ones they like and which ones they don’t/
Rae said ” If you will check a copy of the New Testament, you’ll see that in the writing of Paul (authentic Paul, not those writing under his name), that a very good argument can be made for the old laws being void.”
LOL, no it can’t. Given that Jesus said the law was in full effect for all time and that Paul wasn’t a god what Paul said is irrelevant. Jesus statements obviously take precedence.
Charles said “Please read Jesus words of love and forgiveness and KNOW that no where does Jesus condemn anyone!”.
Jesus eternally tortures people for the thought crime of believing in the wrong religion – condemnation doesn’t get any stronger than that.
Amen to Godfrey and Pria Lynn.
Another Amen to Godfrey and Priya Lynn.
If I remember my World Religion class (note this is coming from one class from a dude who went to seminary but based on my understanding) when Jesus said he fulfilled the law he was meaning that if you followed his teachings you’d be ok with God since the law was being “fulfilled” much like the pharisees and Sadducee had their fulfillment of the law.
Again, could be wrong but that’s what I remember. Either way, I don’t think Jesus would have been cool with this s**t.
Okay, here’s where both you and this man are dead wrong. The verses in Leviticus say nothing about people making homosexual advances on you. What they do say is that those living in open adultery – homosexuality included – were to be stoned to death. But that was before the fulfilment of the law in Jesus Christ. He paid the ultimate price for that sin – he died so they don’t have to anymore. Rather, He now offers them release from the bondage of that sin. Death was only required before Christ died the death for all of us. Now, instead of death, He offers forgiveness and life, if only they repent and trust in Him.
Yeah, the never-changing consistent God developed moral character somewhere around 4 BC. Or something.
*yawn*
Also, Jesus never claimed to abolish or revoke Old Testament Law. Rather, He claimed to fulfil it – that is completely different. For one, abolish means to do away with, to prove unecessary. Christ did neither. What He did was to fulfil the law, which means he satisfied the penalty of the Law for everyone under the law – a.k.a. every person that ever lived or ever will live. What this means is that Christ gave Himself as the proverbial “whipping boy”, taking the punishment we deserve under the law on Himself, so we would not have to bear it ourselves. All we need do is acknowledge this sacrifice in our stead and give up the sin to Him – knowing that He has paid the penalty for us, we forsake our sins, and in doing so place them on Him, so that the sacrifice He made will satisfy the demands of the Law in our stead. Until we do this, though, we are still under the Law and fall under the penalty of it – we still need to pay the price for our crimes, until we turn to Him and let the price He paid cover it all for us.
@Evan Hurst: The “never-changing consistent God” is the definition of “moral.” To separate the two is to deny that morality exists. To deny that morality exists is to say that all we are is puddles on the earth. Puddles that can never harm, offend, or otherwise discrimante against all the other puddles that make up the wide sea of reality.
And the fact that the average kindergartener exhibits more grace than the Old Testament God factors into your thinking in no way?
JR, your god didn’t die. He came back in three days and then got to spend the rest of eternity in “paradise”. He didn’t pay a price (spending eternity in Heaven is a “price”?), and he didn’t change anything.
And even if he did, it’s deplorable that it took thousands of years of killing gays before your god said, “Oh hey, nevermind that stuff.”
“Also, Jesus never claimed to abolish or revoke Old Testament Law. Rather, He claimed to fulfil it – that is completely different.”
That’s exactly what I was trying to say. People claim that the Mosaic laws don’t apply anymore because of Jesus, but Jesus made no such claim, and said that it’s hypocritical to believe otherwise. What makes you think I’m agreeing with you?
“The “never-changing consistent God” is the definition of “moral.””
So the god who dictated that if a man beats a slave to within an inch of his life, but doesn’t kill the slave, he doesn’t have to pay restitution to the slave’s owner, and who dictated that family members who tried to lure people away from godliness should be killed without hesitation, is the definition of “moral”?
No, actually, you’re the one who’s saying that morality doesn’t exist, because if all morality comes from your god, then all that’s moral is completely arbitrary, chosen only by the whims of a god who seems to have changed his mind when Jesus came around, or so apologists like to say.
It’s funny that, if morality comes from an unchanging god who rules over all, that religious Christian people can simultaneously believe that being gay is a sin and not a sin, and both point to their god as the source.
“What makes you think I’m agreeing with you?”
Jeez, I mangled that. What I meant to say was, “What makes you think that supports your assertion?”
It also clearly says an eye for an eye…. Anyone in favor of the death penalty? I’m from Texas…..and love the lord with all my heart, however sin is a terrible poison with only one antidote…Salvation.
“I’m from Texas.”
I’m sorry. :c
ISIAIh 41 BRING forth your IDOLS did they PREACH to you see they can’t speak they can’t DO ANYTHING all they do is cause confusion. spalms 115 and spalms 135 thier IDOLS are FALSE cant speak can’t hear cant smell and those that make them shall become like them. Jeremiah 10 they nail their IDOL down like a scarecrow it can’t move can’…t speak can’t move must be carried these are nothing but the WORK of CON men.john 10 jesus christ sais his sheep hear his voice and another voice thy will not follow and if another person tries to preach to them they WILL FLEE from him. jeremiah 5 the priests bear rule on their own authority what will you do when your judged my word is not inside them. Now here is the kicker john 5 son of man voice goes back in time mathew 16 jesus christ claims to be the son of man.1 cor2 mind of CHRIST preached internally and john 16 sais the spirit of truth comes in the future. Ezekiel 13 lying prophets of ISRAEL my word is not inside them saying god sais god sais god sais wrote hoping mankind would CONFIRM their WORDS. all of this is EASILY verifiable.