An article in the Christian Post today is doing that thing that fundamentalists all do, all the time, annoying non-Christian writers like me and deeply offending the great majority of Christendom who aren’t unreconstructed bigots. They’re asking “Can Christians avoid being called haters for being against gay marriage?” Uh…well first of all, not all Christians are against marriage equality. Indeed, lots of them are all for it! Straight Christians, too! ”Are we haters for simply being pro-family?” Uh…well, if you only support families that fit your widdle daffynition of what constitutes a family, then yeah, you sort of are acting from a place of hate. It may be cloaked in nice Christian words, but…
Let’s just look at the article.
Peter Sprigg, senior fellow for policy studies with the Family Research Council, believes that Christians need to make it clear that they are motivated by love.
Thanks for your input, hate group leader who has called for gays to be exported from the United States. The idea that any human alive would be taking direction on “love” from a person such as Peter Sprigg would be offensive if it weren’t so ludicrous.
“I think that’s kind of the major challenge that we face,” he commented to The Christian Post. “We in the pro-family movement … those of us who are Christians, we know in our hearts that we are motivated by love, not hate. The definition of love is not that you let people do whatever they want.”
Ah, so this kind of illuminates one of the silly things that fundamentalist Christians believe about themselves. These people who haven’t contributed a major scientific or artistic breakthrough in Western society in quite awhile nonetheless feel that they are The Arbiters [the loving, disciplinary parents, if you will], for the entire rest of society, even though their own record on the principles they espouse is no better than the rest of the population, and is often worse. They simply believe they are better. The word for this is “supremacist,” and “love” is nowhere in the definition.
“The essence of love,” he added, “is to desire the best for someone, and to act to bring that about. And I would argue that’s what we think we’re doing.”
Here is another silly thing that fundamentalist Christians believe about themselves. Starting from a place where they actually believe they have the right answers [they who believe that the earth is 6,000 years old and under whose tutelage we never would have had antibiotics], they feel they have the right to act to control other people’s lives in order to “bring about the best” in the rest of society. The problem is that Peter Sprigg is not an expert on any damn thing! The actual experts — scientists, the medical profession, the mental health community — uniformly state that homosexuality is a natural part of the human condition, is not a disorder, and should be treated just as heterosexuality is. Therefore, taking the statements of actual experts, repealing DOMA and bringing about full equality for gays and lesbians is simply doing what is verifiably the best thing for our community. Peter’s opinion on the subject is irrelevant, as the fact that he has some thoughts about what’s written in an old book have absolutely no bearing on the issue at hand. I have some thoughts about that book, too, but I certainly wouldn’t use them to deny anyone their constitutional rights.
They talked to another bigot for the article, an “ex-gay” one:
But what worries Greg Quinlan, president of the Pro-Family Network, is that many Christians aren’t standing in opposition to gay marriage for the sake of getting along with those on the other side of the debate.
“I am intolerant,” he said, “but I don’t hate. Yes, there is a difference … We have to turn the definitions around.”
Good luck.
“Christians have to understand how to tell the truth in love, but it isn’t love until you tell the truth. Now, we have to not be concerned about what other people think of us. We have to stop trying to be nicer than Jesus.”
You aren’t nicer than Jesus, Greg. You and your kind lie about, malign and spread hate against an entire minority population in this country in service of your conception of a deity. At least when Jesus was in a mood he acted with a shred of integrity.
“When somebody calls us a hater … we need to be all the louder, all the more persistent and consistent with our message,” he said.
When you’re correctly called a hateful bigot, hate louder, he seems to be saying!
Well then, that was fun. Until next time one of these fools says something stupid…
“Until next time one of these fools says something stupid…”
That should be in about 30 minutes from now.
Just enough time to grab a snackie or maybe a cocktail…
It doesn’t matter how much sugar you poor over it and how stridently you insist that it’s really chocolate; a pile of s**t is still a pile of s**t.
Thanks for your input, hate group leader who has called for gays to be exported from the United States.
And there you are. Also, that “We in the pro-family movement” claptrap. As opposed to what? We in the anti-family movement? I feel the love.
Oh yeah, every time I hear this garbage from these haters, I feel the “love”,too. Unbelievable. Nothing gets on my nerves more than their “pro-family” crap. Yeah, we only have families of our own…they’re just not the kind of family these nimrods have in mind.
I posated this last night atthe CP, but apparently, it was either too long or too strong, because it ain’t there now.
so, all you Super Good Christians out there, here’s your chance to respond. I’d welcome it.
Pastor Michael Sechler: I must be stupid.
Here you are complaining of all of this bad behavior by HETEROSEXUALS, and you are upset because two men or two women WANT to make the commitment to each other that you deem so important that not making and keeping it is causing the decline of our culture?
I have gay coupled friends that have been together for longer than all seven of Newt Gingrich’s and Rush Limbaugh’s marriages combined. I know of at least one couple where you could throw in Liz Taylor’s 8 marriages in addition, and they have still been together longer. I saw many men– myself included– care for their dying partners and boyfriends 30 years ago as they were dying, while their families and churches abandoned them, just like Jesus would have, I’m sure. Straight people abandon their families and children for no other reason than convenience, as you so rightly observe. A fatal disease would hardly keep them around, would it?
And we’re the problem?
And you tell us you love us? Do you love us when you blame us for the state of heterosexual marriage and family, conflating our lives and our right to live our lives after the fashion that nature has made us, with the child abuse, child molestation, and partner abuse of the HETERO world? Do you love us when you call our lives abominations, dangerous, filthy, disease, perverted and sick, on the basis of what you prefer to believe, rather than the facts? Exactly how much to you love us when you oppose everything we try to do to live our lives peacefully and happily, with the same fulfillment you would expect for yourself? Exactly how much do you love us when you join political campaigns that attempt to demonize us, lying, propagandizing, fear mongering, calling us a threat to marriage, family, children, freedom, faith, liberty, and the whole of Western civilization, such as it is? Do you truly love us when you seek to disadvantage us legally in every way that you can, to make our lives as difficult and unpleasant as possible, to impose your religious beliefs upon people hwo most vehemently do not sdhare them?
I can just feel the love there, although I must confess I would probably prefer being hated, it being a tad more honest.
And then you have THIS little gem. “We also need to be willing to take the hit of “being judgmental” by continuing to proclaim the truth in love. Often, people mistake the judgment of God as us judging them.” Gay people are moral and social children that must be seen to by the all-knowing, all beneficent Church. We’re too immature, too wrapped in the coils of lust and sin to know anything about our lives, our sexuality, our faith, our loves, or our families. Very frankly, I have never met, talked to, or debated any faith based opponent of my right live my life as I see fit, without the burden of your animus-disguised-as-love, who knew the first thing about human sexuality in general or gay people in particular. And as for knowing what the bible says about homosexuality?
You want to tell me you love me, wonderful, but that’s not what you are doing. You are in fact judging, as much as you would like to pretend that you are not. As a gay man, I have yet to hear anyone proclaiming the truth in love about gay people without making being gay the extra special-icky sin that it is. Are you really god’s Best Buddy, that he keeps you informed of all of his thoughts? I don’t think so.
I don’t think I am mistaking the judgment of God for you judging other people. I’m not that stupid, and besides…I don’t hear God talking, I only hear YOU talking. I’m almost certain that Jesus was speaking to you in a number of places. So I’ll proclaim the truth in love to YOU—something about not being concerned with the sins of others until you yourself have achieved a bit of perfection.
“Judge not lest ye be judged.” That doesn’t mean that you rub your hands with glee while God is judging people exactly as you would.
“Look not for the speck in your bothers eye” because you have one big ol’ log in your own, starting with the belief that you really aren’t judging anybody, your just spreading “the truth in love”.
“Let him among you…” Well, everyone might be a sinner, but not everyone is throwing stones.
Exactly what part of what The Lord had to say does not apply to a bible-believing Christian such as yourself?
I’ll leave you with this thought. There are plenty of Christians, and plenty of Christian denominations, which no longer buy the myths about gay people and god that you people or so happy to repeat, all in the name of proclaiming the truth in love. I’m not a homosexual, an abomination, a problem, or any particular kind of sinner, and if I am, you have your own sins to keep you busy. I’m certainly not a threat to you, your family, your children, or your faith, unless the whole of Christianity boils down to “get the homos by proclaiming the truth in love.”
I won’t tell you if I am a Christian. But I will tell YOU, pastor, that YOU do not know my relationship with God. You do not represent God, and until I hear it from god himself, you do not speak for God. No one has given YOU any authority to judge others. The problem here is simple: you have chosen judgment over God, no matter if you would prefer to call it “proclaiming the truth in love”, or admitting it for what it so clearly is. God gives us a choice: self-righteousness or Him. When you make the wrong choice, choosing moralizing judgmentalism as so many of you have done, I can only suggest that you repent and find your lord before it’s too late.
Thanks Evan and Ben. You’ve articulated it all so well. This captures the essence of this ongoing ridiculous argument put forth by right-wing fundamantalists.
Please God, zip their lips!
I tried to post this at Christian Post, but apparently you need a facebook account and I don’t have one:
“Peter Sprigg said “The definition of love is not that you let people do whatever they want.”…”The essence of love,” he added, “is to desire the best for someone, and to act to bring that about. ”
No, those are the definitionso of control and paternalism. Christians like Peter Sprigg have bastardized the meaning of love. Love means feeling affection for somone, getting pleasure out of being around them, feeling happy because your’re with them. People like Peter don’t love gays, they seek to dominate them to force them to live according to what they think is appropriate.
“Sprigg also emphasized that he wants to see homosexuals spared from any harm, particularly emphasizing physical harm from health concerns like the AIDS epidemic.”.
This is an example of hate, not love. Peter is making the false implication that all gay people are at risk for AIDS, dishonestly claiming there are no monogamous gays. There is no risk of STDs in a monogamous same sex relationship. If christians want to see gays spared from harm they’d be encouraging gays to enter monogamous marriages.
Another painful dishonesty in the christian anti-gay movement is the dishonest use of the labels “pro-family” and “pro-marriage”. Christians like Sprigg label their lobbying against the equal rights for gays as “pro-family” when in reality those efforts are solely anti-gay and have nothing to do with being pro-family. Its an effort to disguise a wrong as an act of positivity. Similarly when christians like Peter call their efforts to deny gays the right to marry “pro-marriage”, its dishonest – their actions are solely anti-marriage, trying to prevent people from marrying. We LGBTS truly are pro-family and pro-marriage, we wish this was true of you as well. If christians were soley pro-family and pro-marriage we’d have no conflict at all, but like the bastardization of the word love you’ve bastardized those terms as well as what you really are referring to when you use those terms is anti-gay actions.”
If someone who has a facebook account was willing to post my above comment to christian post I’d really appreciate it.
Priya…one of your best. Not only clear, but psssionate and calm. I’ll try to post it for you.
Thanks Ben. I try to tone it down a bit when I’m posting on an anti-gay christian blog.
It’s done, but it may not stay up. I reposted mine as well.
Isn’t it amazing how Christians doing all this condemnation in LOVE feels so much like animosity and hatred? I have never been able to figure out in all my years how to insult, condemn, put-down, demoralize, denigrate, and blame people for every worldly problem and do it from LOVE. It takes an especially screwed up and twisted form of thinking and rationalization to manage this. AND do it all without the object of all this derision feeling like s**t afterwards and only wanting to thank you for the demonstration of your love for them – in the name of Jesus, of course. AND love now means that the recipient of all this should do and be what you want because God speaks through you and you are his enforcer and God is LOVE so how could you possibly not be right in treating these gay people like they are scum?
I am one of the stupid ones. It truly does elude me.
Thanks a lot, Ben.
I think that the main problem with the ‘love the sinner’ nonsense is that not only does the word ‘love’ have no real meaning for people like Sprigg & Minnery & Daly & Dobson, but that their REAL problem is Fear. They are authoritarians who hugely fear change of any kind. They see the world changing around them and are so petrified that they respond the way most people react to feeling fear – they hate. They have to pick on someone to hate but because they know they are not biblically allowed to hate, they simply call it love. You will find that most xtians live in cliche-mode so whatever question you ask, they already have a prepared response memorized by years of fundy indoctrination. I s’pose they would claim they are not terrified of gays, but that would not be true.
It’s unfortunate that what people understand bigotry to mean is something overt that requires open name calling and physical assault. They don’t seem to understand DEGREES of it. That there are aspects of bigotry that don’t register on their scale of public reactions. There are people who themselves don’t FEEL a hostility or fear of the target of that bigotry. Or because they never physically attacked a person of that class, then they aren’t bigots.
But their lack of sensitivity to the point of ALLOWING others to be that way, still causes devastation to that target. Giving credence to the adage of what happens with evil when good people do nothing. Or don’t THINK anything THAT bad is going on. And don’t WANT to.
There is the sort of bigotry in a person that makes them refuse to LISTEN to your experience, let alone your pain from it. They don’t want to think your feelings are valid. Rather, they will TELL YOU that you’re the one responsible for what happened to you or that you’re carrying a chip on your shoulder.
In other words, the bigotry is in your HEAD, and not in society.
Uglier, just as hurtful and harmful than the overt and obvious bigotry going, is the covert, secretive and those that DENY bigotry they can’t see doesn’t exist, that is even worse.
So if you take a moral position, you are a hater…then the writer of this piece is a hater since they take a moral position…
No JeremiahA – if you take a morally corrupt position you’re a hater…… sheesh!
Here something I wrote to Jeremiah some time ago on Huffpost:
Jeremiah is, unfortunately, anti-gay, and thus not open to reason or fact. I’m also pretty sure that he is ex-gay, which amounts to the same thing.
You’re not even making sense any more, not that you ever did.
Same sex marriage eviscerates marriage of its normative content? What does that even mean? you must be referring to the norm that says only heterosexuals and their are entitled to be treated like human beings.
and this howler: Federal and state income taxes will be increased to make up for the new special benefits for same sex couples and to pay for the social costs resulting from the increase in illegitimacy.
the benefits are special when gay people get them, not special when straights do. And the increase in illegitimacy? Remember Adam and Steve? they’re not the ones producing the little b******s bro. That’s YOUR people.
” A loving and compassionate society never intentionally creates motherless or fatherless homes.
That’s why there is no hetero illegitimacy, no hetero divorce, no hetero abandonment, no war, nor forced marriage for reproducing but not married heteros.
The rest of it is just as stupid.
Jeremiah, you really need to come clean about this. Tell us all why you are so antigay that you don’t even need to make the slightest bit of sense?
Regan said “There is the sort of bigotry in a person that makes them refuse to LISTEN to your experience, let alone your pain from it. They don’t want to think your feelings are valid. Rather, they will TELL YOU that you’re the one responsible for what happened to you or that you’re carrying a chip on your shoulder.
In other words, the bigotry is in your HEAD, and not in society.”.
Very insightful Regan. I’ve experienced this a lot but never really thought about it from that angle before. Thanks.
Jeremiah said “So if you take a moral position, you are a hater…then the writer of this piece is a hater since they take a moral position…”.
Wrong. None of us ever said taking a moral position makes one a hater. Its taking a position that harms others that makes you a hater. As Paul said you are taking an immoral position, not a moral one. The writer of this piece hasn’t advocated harming anyone and so is not a hater.
Jeremiah said “Same sex marriage eviscerates marriage of its normative content”.
If that’s true than why hasn’t that happened in Canada. Why is there no effect on opposite sex marriages in Canada?
Jeremiah said “Federal and state income taxes will be increased to make up for the new special benefits for same sex couples”.
Same sex couples pay the same taxes (actually higher taxes) that opposite sex couples do and so deserve the same benefits opposite sex couples get.
Jeremiah said “” A loving and compassionate society never intentionally creates motherless or fatherless homes.”.
A loving and compassionate society never insists children stay in orphanages rather than going with two loving and compassionate same sex parents, yet this is exactly what you bigots insist upon.
If someone calls them self a christian and then speaks contrary to the word of God, then they are not a true believer, they are a hypocrite. If you believe in nothing but yourself and your desires then you are a lost and empty soul. We have free will while we live…to choose to either please ourselves or our Creator. There are consequences for all our actions, that is the only truth that wins out.
http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0228_Born_Homosexual.html
Qrius
“We have free will while we live”. Ok, since God is omniscient – He knows all, past, present, and future – then He already knows if I’m going to heaven or hell, right?
Since He already knows this, there is nothing I can do to change my destiny. So there is no free will…just the illusion of free will.
If I can change my destiny, this means that God is not omniscient, that He does not already know whether I’m going to heaven or hell.
So, which is it, Qrius? Free will, or non-omniscience? Don’t take up your argument with me, though; God gave me this magnificent brain in His omnipotence, and knew how I was going to use it via His omniscience. If God didn’t want me to ask these questions – and He knew I would ask them – He should not have given me the brain that He did.
I have lots more questions like this that neither the Bible nor Christianity can answer. The inability/refusal to answer to such questions is why I left Christianity in the first place. I’ve even been told by Christians that I shouldn’t ask such questions…
Oh please, Queenustuno, even you don’t really follow what you assume is the Word of God. If there are any ‘lost souls’ here, look in the mirror. ps..your judgementalism is the first cardinal rule that you broke; one of many I’m sure.
Oh, Qriustuno, do you really still believe that stuff in 2011? Seriously? Science has given us a mountain of discoveries, and adds new ones every day, but all religion has given us is the endless repetition of the same old ancient myths. There is a fascinating world of reality out there to be explored, and you’ve got your head buried in ancient mythology. It’s time to let go and move on.
@PhillipJ: God sees and knows all but He gives us His Word (just as any good parent would), hoping we will love Him enough to be obedient. Free will is not a myth. He knows the end result of each path you will ever take…He wants you to take the right one because YOU have chosen to do His will. As long as you have breath in your body, you have the opportunity to choose which path you follow at ANY given moment…that is such a great gift and opportunity!…The devil is strong but we are stronger in God through Yeshua our Salvation. No man can give you answers to fill the void we all feel without God. He knows when we yearn for more than what we have in this life…He waits for our call and when our soul cries out to him, He draws near to us. I hope you will open your mind and your heart and let Him in. You know we all have that chance right up the moment we take our last breath.
@Gary: I did look in the mirror and what I saw was real bad…I was a lost soul who sought refuge in everything else but the Almighty…(my carnal desires were front & center!) I made a conscious decision to turn my life around, ask for forgiveness and fill the void by following God’s ways, not my own. I cried out to Him and He’s been guiding me through His word. So I struggle with doing what is right on a daily basis (means looking in the mirror more frequently and trying to correct my ways) but I see the rewards of being obedient and I give thanks to Him daily because I believe He loves me enough to forgive me.
God loves us all but he hates our sins…If God’s word says that homosexuality is a sin..then it is a sin. Man and woman were obviously created to compliment and be companions to each other. Just because you have the desires does not mean you have to follow through on that…you will agree that two of the same sex are not constructed to compliment each other physically in a sexual manner. That’s just a fact. It takes love, discipline and humility to see the difference between right and wrong and choose to do that which is right. Not every temptation or desire is right and we either choose to have the self-will to do what is right, or we don’t. :(
@Richard R: Seriously, in 2011, I still do believe! lol
I have stepped out from under the umbrella of “religion” because I have seen how man has made a fine mess of God’s Word with the numerous variations of what each religious sect believes. There is one God, one Bible which is the best moral guide that I know of and I base my belief on that and only that.
Science is facinating and discovering about the world and ourselves is a great thing (a God given ability by the way ;-D)..but am I going to dismiss Him as nonexistent because of new and “improved” scientific findings? NOOOO!!! He is more real than any discoveries we can ever make with our mere mortal minds.
God is not a myth and I wish you would not let go of Him because He sure does not want to let go of you. :)
Sorry Q, but as long as you follow a text believing it is the word of some deity, you ARE under a religion.
Oh Qristuno. You make me sad.
You can believe whatever ridiculous thing you want–but when you prevent me from having equal rights on the basis of what this god you worship we have a problem.
You can worship whatever you want, you can preach whatever you want but don’t try to turn it into a law.
Sorry, Q, that is a logical contradiction. We cannot have free will if God already knows the outcome of the decision of that free will; that is an illusion of having free will. We only have free will if we can change the outcome.
By the way, Q, God deliberately creates intersexed children (or He lets it happen, or He has no control, but the last two possibilities are too frightening for Christians to contemplate). There are babies born with male sex chromosomes and (external) female genitalia (no internal female organs at all). Which sex are they, Q, male or female? (Look up Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome). More importantly, who should they be allowed to marry when they grow up? Depending on how you classify them, it will be a same-sex marriage no matter who they marry!
Most of them self-identify as female, but a few identify as male. You can argue about homosexuality being a choice, but THESE PEOPLE HAD NO CHOICE IN THE MATTER as to their DNA not matching their body, and in some cases, their gender-identity.
I’m not going to tell an AIS person “well, gee, because God created you this way, you can never be in a romantic relationship with anyone else. Because you have components of both genders, it would be a same sex-relationship, and we just can’t have that!” If this is how your God is, you can keep Him.
Fortunately, I believe in God/a higher power, but you have a very limited view of who God is. My God would never create an AIS person like this and say “gee, you’ve gotta be alone the rest of your life and it’s because of the way I created you.”
So, what happens if I do accept your advice, Q, and follow God as you see Him? Do – POOF- all AIS people cease to exist, or am I not permitted to think about them anymore, to ask such questions? God gave me this magnificent brain, knowing how I would use it, and He expects me to use it. (See my previous post above, rather than rehash all this again :-) )
I have plenty more questions where these came from…so I’ll ask once more, “are AIS people male or female”?
Q said “He wants you to take the right one because YOU have chosen to do His will.”.
No he doesn’t. He wants exactly what happens to each and every person. As an omniscient being he knew when he created each person exactly what they would do throughout their lives. If he wanted them to behave differently he wouldn’t have created them the way he did.
Qriustuno,
“There is one God, one Bible which is the best moral guide that I know of and I base my belief on that and only that.”
Your “one” Bible is an illusion. Beyond the fact that the Bible is the word of a bunch of understandably ancient superstitious men with overactive imaginations, today’s Bible(s) is/are the result of compounded flawed translations that are largely devoid of their original context.
BUT, a real god could have and should have assured the preservation of all the original manuscripts in defiance of the natural decay process, assured that the manuscripts were not lost, and found a way to circumvent the issues of culture, context, language, and translation. Those things are not too much to expect from a god who condemns people to eternal suffering if they don’t believe in his existence.
“Science is facinating and discovering about the world and ourselves is a great thing (a God given ability by the way ;-D).”
Well, I’m pleased that you feel science is “a great thing,” but why did God wait so long to give humans scientific ability? Why did He allow humans to suffer horrific pain for many thousands of years before giving them the ability to discover the most basic medical methods to reduce it? And why couldn’t we have had air-travel and the internet hundreds of years ago?
Religion has actually retarded human progress, and continues to do so. When people believe that a god is responsible for everything, they are unlikely to be motivated to seek natural explanations and new discoveries that could improve human existence. And it’s actually worse than that because they often seek to actively prevent scientific progress. That’s why intensely religious people so seldom contribute anything useful to science, technology, or the arts. Their only “contributions” are the promotion of ancient myths, meddling in other people’s lives, and high birth rates.
“We in the pro-family movement … those of us who are Christians, we know in our hearts that we are motivated by love, not hate.”
Yes, just as the Nazis were simply a “pro-Germany” movement, motivated in their hearts by doing the best thing for Germany, not hating the Jews. Gaaah!