Truth Wins Out readers run the gamut of religious belief and lack thereof. We know that, and we welcome that. But this piece of television right here, from Fox Business channel, may be the single most insane thing I have ever seen in the American news media. Really. The host brought David Silverman on, ostensibly to ask how atheists would prepare for Hurricane Irene.* Within seconds, the hosts decided to attack Silverman for being an atheist in the first place. This is truly epic. Watch it, and then I want to draw an obvious parallel.
Okay! Does this remind y’all of how some in the media have treated LGBT issues? Stubbornly clinging to stereotype while [insert gay spokesperson here] tries their damnedest to wade through the onslaught of BS in order to make a single salient point? Yeah. If it hadn’t been for the Fox Business logo so clearly emblazoned on the screen, I would have sworn this was from The Onion.
[h/t PZ]
*Simple answer: the usual buying of candles and nonperishable food items, all while sharpening our horns and talons and checking out which neighbors look the weakest, so we know where to start when the going gets rough.
Wow, they didn’t even pretend they were going to talk about the hurricane, they just jumped right into the smug bullying.
It always amazes me how evangelicals can believe themselves to be an oppressed minority one minute and the voice of common sense the next. Seriously, folks, pick one. Either you’re the majority in a faithful society, or you’re the minority in a secular one. It can’t be both, because MATH WORKS.
LOL, wait, I forgot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QBv2CFTSWU
Bullying? What bullying? Sorry, this time you’ve lost me. True, they asked him a question about his spiritual life, but from that moment on it was the ATHEIST who went on the attack using abusive terms like “imaginary man in the sky” and the same s**t that those of us who still have faith have to take from the atheist crowd on a regular basis.
As far as the parallel between this scenario and that of a gay spokesperson in place of the atheist, sure, I can see it. But what too many people DON’T see is that there are a LOT of LGBT persons of faith in the world and we DO NOT APPRECIATE IT WHEN WE GET ABUSE FROM BOTH SIDES OF THE COIN.
Oh Gez. Where to start. First of all doubt is actually important to faith. If Christians just go around ignoring questions like Why doesn’t God stop hurricanes? Then they’re just not being honest. Also, who else hates the rebuttal “but that’s your opinion”? OF COURSE what one says is their opinion. When in a debate, they state it as fact to be persuasive. Last, for now, the Fox lady left Muslims out of her “Roar! Religion is awesome!” rant.
@Scott It’d be cool if he didn’t use “Man in the Sky” and, yeah, it hurts my feelings sometimes. I thought the Buddhist prayer joke was really douchey, but I tend to be more critical of Christians since I am one and I don’t like them giving me a bad name.
Whoa, Scott! Take it down a notch. I understand your frustration, but shouting (i.e. writing in all caps) will not stop the hostility. Please remember that the “atheist crowd” you refer to in your post is just a small, vocal minority who have nothing better to do with their time than trash others’ faiths in the blogosphere. Most atheists outside of the internet usually tend to respect faith and those that profess a religious belief. Conversely, most religious people respect atheists and their right to (not) believe as they chose and do not harangue them at every chance they get. Once again, it’s just a small, vocal minority of believers that write posts trashing others who disagree with them. It is the anonymity of the internet that allows people of all religious persuasions to say stuff in such a manner that they would never say to someone’s face.
Obviously, the religios people commenting above do not experience what us non-believers have to go through on an hourly basis in this country. This constant barrage of the religious pushing and legislating their religious views is even worst now that the Republican party is going the way of the Southern Baptists. If the religious would stop attacking me for being gay or an atheist then maybe I would have a little respect for them even if I do not agree with their views.
Also, it is fine for religious people to say that not all religious people are like that. But IF religious people exist that are not like that then why do they stand by with their mouths shut while watching the bashing going on. Are there no religious people that will stand up to these people?
Same goes with the Republicans that say not all republicans agree with scum like Bachmann or Perry. But where are the ones that are standing up to them?
All I hear are crickets…
I hate posting something then finding the typos after. Please do not correct me. I know they are there.
“Conversely, most religious people respect atheists and their right to (not) believe as they chose and do not harangue them at every chance they get.”
This hasn’t been my experience. I really rarely ever talk about being an atheist but the few times I do I have rarely ever had religious people be respectful. Almost invariably they tell me things on a range from “you must be very sad” (I’m not) to “You’re going to Hell” (or words to that effect). I will say that there are some strong atheists who can get pretty strident–but I don’t think religious people even realize how strident they often are because they do it claiming that they “love” the person they are condemning. I think if atheists are reactionary it’s because of our usual treatment.
Really kind of an odd segment. What was the point of having Silverman on anyway, just to mock him? All he really needed to say, and perhaps was going to say is that we prepare as anyone else should, just minus the prayers. The “discussion” really kind of degenerated from the get go, and it’s kind of close as to who started it IMO. Though watching crazy Fox lady go all babble was kind of fun….
I’m confused. I believe in God and I can’t think of anything atheists do to prepare for natural disasters that I don’t.
Rainbow, maybe Fox Business thinks you should pray rather than buy batteries and water.
Rainbowphoenix said “11.I’m confused. I believe in God and I can’t think of anything atheists do to prepare for natural disasters that I don’t.”.
I think the question was intended to be “What do atheists use as an alternative to prayer when a natural disaster is imminent?”.
The answer is we hope for the best just like religionists do, but we don’t expect supernatural intervention to bring it about.
As a ‘religionist’, most of my friends are either agnostics or ‘spiritual but not religious’. Everyone does their own thing, no one criticizes nor condemns anyone else and we all get along just fine. I also don’t expect supernatural intervention to keep my property from being damaged while my neighbors get trashed just because I said a prayer. People who hold this ‘version’ of God are, as one of our Priests said, ‘like 6th graders who just graduated from a really bad Confirmation class.’
So, for everyone on the site, both religious and non-religious–Dona Nobis Pacem. :)
As a spiritual non-Judeo-Christian theist, I can say pretty plainly that my gods just want me to use my brain to prepare for the worst and be strong during crises to survive and protect my loved ones. By showing my resolve, I honor my gods, for crises are but a test of character like any other.
Speaking for myself, of course.
Daniel – I am sorry that believers can and do impose their worldviews on you. That is ignorant, inexcusable, and unacceptable. I am fortunate to say that in every instance that I’ve had face to face discussions with atheists or non-believers about faith, I have received nothing but respect for my beliefs from them. I return that respect for their beliefs/non-beliefs and do not proselytize. More often than not we walk away with a deeper understanding of our opposing beliefs and a deeper appreciation for our own. That is what an open society is supposed to generate. Not what you’ve experienced and definitely not this garbage from Fox. Good luck the next time you encounter pigheaded believers. I hope you remain strong and maybe even force them to examine their own.
I have to say, this video was NOT what I was expecting, based upon the intro.
Silverman DID initiate the active bullying (I say “active”, because this entire spectacle was one of bullying the audience—like any thinking person should ever watch “FOX Business” in the first place! }-X). It was no different from a religious fundamentalist coming on to say “Have you accepted Jesus as your Savior? If not, you’re going to hell!”
I quit at 1:47. At that point, Mr FOX was clearly going from dissing Silverman (who frankly deserved it), to going off on ALL atheists (which is just as wrong as Steve @ #7 going off on ALL believers. What do I have to do? Kick Pat Robertson’s teeth in, before you’ll believe he doesn’t speak for me, and IN DEED I oppose @ssholes like him at every turn? I’m working too hard trying to SURVIVE as a Queer Christian, to have to prove myself to you Steve, plz&ty!)
Sign me, Sick of Fundies: Theist OR A-Theist!
I can understand perhaps why Silverman reacted the way he did. When a cat is cornered, it will start hissing and spitting. He probably got there, realised that this was a thinly veiled ambush, and panicked.
All these religio’s posting above get ever-so-offended when someone attacks belief, but the organised abuse against non-believers in the US is staggering. I remember when Obama included ‘non-believers’ in his inauguration speech, and Bill O’Reilly called this offensive! Vast swathes of the US public find atheists abhorrent, and we are one of the most villified groups in America right now.
For Christians (and other religio’s) to complain about being attacked when their assaults are much more numerous and vicious is the height of hypocracy.
It smacks of Do As I Say, Not As I Do.
I don’t see the problem with Mr. Silverman. As he said, “You asked.”
I don’t see why he should have to pretend to respect beliefs he thinks are crap. Expressing disrespect for a person’s espoused positions is not necessarily expressing disrespect for that person.
I hear so many people start a reply with “I respect your opinion”, but to me, that’s a load of crap. All you need to do is respect me as a person. You don’t have to respect everything I say or do.
I think the great majority of the time, atheists just keep their mouths shut or make vague consersational noises when they hear someone put forward religious or spiritual beliefs. The religious and the spiritual, on the other hand, are typically not as laissez faire when they hear somone express an atheist opinion, but often pick away at the atheist’s thinking, trying to find fault or argue a contrary position, usual during a friendly-seeming conversation.
As an atheist I think David when in a little strong and put people on the defensive with the you are being delusional. But ultimately I think he brought up some of the big sticking points I have with the view of a loving god. Thinks like if he is all powerful couldn’t he stop the hurricane. It buys into the whole narrative that people claim to worship a loving god. One of damn a majority of people to a fiery suffering for transgressions. Of course you are supposed to have free will but he already knows what you are going to do so you really don’t have free will. It’s enough to make one’s head spin.
As for how atheists are treated I have always said it was easier for me to come out gay than atheist. I think my family was more stressed by that. And when I have told acquaintences they look like you have two heads. I too have gotten a few of those I’ll pray for you etc.
‘No, I don’t have a spiritual life, and neither do you’ (I’m paraphrasing). As soon as he said this, it was nothing but a turkey-shoot.
Hmm. I think if a Christian was on that show and starting saying ‘I think you are a flawed spiritual being and you are going to Hell if you don’t adhere strictly to this ancient book and repent of pretty much all the fun you’ve ever had in your life’, he would be so roundly attacked by the panel.
Again, rampant hypocracy.
* – “he would NOT be so roundly attacked by the panel” – *
Sorry ’bout that.
I’ll shout if I feel like it. And as for the atheists being a “small, vocal minority,” well, that could also be said of the type of Christians who are usually on the other side of this argument, but I see far too many people using the word “Christians” as if we all behave the same way and do the same things. Which is IDIOTIC because SOME OF US ARE GAY!
Scott, it seems to me that it’s up to those Christians, gay and otherwise to make that point yourselves–and not just to the gay people who use the shorthand and don’t always say “anti-gay Christians”. So many of my Christian friends get outraged just like you but they always go after the gay (or liberal) person who said it and never the anti-gay Chritians who are giving you the bad name.
Nick, quite honestly I try to avoid religious discussions because usually when you “discuss” with religious people they usually go to scriptures and I just don’t see the point of arguing the Bible because I think it’s, in a large part, ridiculous and indefensible. But, when you’re talking to a believer they don’t recognize that it is not and should not be the basis of our legal system.
I have some more liberal or unaffiliated “spiritual” friends and I have had some good discussions with them–but there’s always the danger that they will use the “God says” argument. On the other hand I have several more spiritual friends who, if they ever spoke to these more literalist spiritual people would also probably be told they’re going to Hell.
The thing is, I think that in the United States at this point in time atheists have no power and almost no standing in general society. I think even the majority of gay people have some sort of religious beliefs and as soon as you mention you’re not a believer they will take sides with even anti-gay Christians against atheists. I hope I’m wrong about that but I also think that it is to a large extent up to these pro-gay Christians to change this perception.
Daniel said “it seems to me that it’s up to those Christians, gay and otherwise to make that point yourselves–and not just to the gay people who use the shorthand and don’t always say “anti-gay Christians”.”.
I used to use that shorthand, saying “christians” when I was referring to christians who oppose gays. I now make it a point to always say “anti-gay christians” to acknowledge and emphasize that many christians are on our side. If we lump all christians in with the badly behaved ones we’re going to alienate allies and that’s a bad idea.
Daniel said “I think even the majority of gay people have some sort of religious beliefs”.
According to surveys I’ve read 70% of American gays are christians.
Priya, I agree that we shouldn’t lump all Christians into the same anti-gay group–but I also believe the Christians who are not anti-gay need to speak up more and not just to other liberal gays and Chrsitians. After prop 8 I had so many Mormon friends and relatives tell me “I disagree with what the church did” but they told me and not the other people in their church. Hell of a lot of good that did.
I understand where you’re coming from Daniel. For me I see it a little differently. I feel such christians owe it to LGBTs to not be anti-gay, but I don’t feel they owe it to us to take up the fight alongside us. If they do that’s a bonus and deeply appreciated, but I don’t expect it or really hold it against them if they don’t go out of their way to help.
Mainstream Christians should help in the fight against religious extremism. The damage done by fundie fanatics in the name of Christianity affects them too.
Priya, I disagree. If they want credit for “supporting” me they should be a little more forthcoming about their support to people who actually might benefit from hearing of their support. While it’s fine to have family members pull me aside and whisper that they’re behind me my thanks will be limited if they don’t also have my back when my bigot sister goes off about how evil gays are all going to Hell and gay marriage is causing hurricanes. If they want to take me to task for not saying “anti-gay Christians” all the time they need to do a little more to differentiate themselves–that goes for gay Christians too. It seems like they shame non religious gays more than they do bigoted Christians. If I’m wrong then they should show me by their actions rather than just telling me.
Wayne, as someone who comes from a very religious family I agree with you completely.
Daniel,
I have the same issue. My family is for the most part all Catholic and i hear the same thing from them. It pisses me off because they continue to give money to the Catholic church a portion of it being used against me and they refuse to speak up in their parishes. So indirectly they are contributing to their church fighting to keep me as a second class citizen.
Daniel, don’t let your disappointment in someone who isn’t against you turn them into someone who is.
I hear ya,Steve, Nick, and others. I am Pagan and I either get “Oh then you don’t believe in a God” or just plain old fundie ranting and raving about my faith. It is the fundies who are ignorant and don’t want to learn anything that might mess with their world view.
My spouse lately talked to an MCC minister and he was very accepting and all. So, no it isn’t all Christians.
Priya, thank you for putting the entire weight on me.
Not my intention Daniel. I sympathize with how you feel, I just think one’s anger needs to be measured.
Priya, I have not “turned against” any of these people. I don’t upbraid them for not doing more–but I do suggest that they might and in almost every case they are terrified to do so because the other Christians will turn on them and they know I will not. So don’t preach to me about tolerance of other people’s beliefs. I will continue to suggest that they do a little more–I don’t do it stridently but believe me, I get tired of hearing Christians tell me that they are closet supporters.
Daniel, I never said anything about you “turning against” these people or told you to tolerate beliefs you don’t agree with. I don’t know anything about how you treat such people, I’m just asking you to give it some thought as to how your anger might affect closet supporters because what you’ve expressed here hasn’t been very measured.
@Scott
I am a person of faith – I have been for decades although the particular faith has varied. I have sat on interfaith boards, represented the religious community as a whole on non-profit boards, been a member of a vestry, been the primary moving force for an interfaith vigil, and more.
I have NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER with atheists however, I have found that they tend to be more moral, in many ways, than many believers. I have also had atheists attend events I was involved in running, and even give some of the readings.
In short, I just don’t see what bugged you. I have no axes to grind and no problem with my own faith — therefore the faith or lack thereof of others cannot upset or harm me in any way.
Kind thoughts,
Reyn
“In religion and politics people’s beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.”
Autobiography of Mark Twain by Samuel Clemens
Wow, is this normal for America? Mainstream TV presenters acting as though they think not praying or believing in an afterlife is so weird and abhorrent? And verbally abusing their guests?
They really need to spend some time in the rest of the world. On British television, I think the positions would be reversed – anyone suggsting we ‘pray’ to avoid dying in a natural disaster would be considered a little bit kooky – but they wouldn’t be verbally abused like the guest on that TV show was
And let’s not forget, he was a guest, someone who was invited on that show to give an opinion. Whatever happened to respect? (BTW, I have to admit I gave up watching when the female presenter started shouting, so I may have missed something important – but it’s my right to switch off)