Explosive news out of Australia: in an interview with LGBT journalists Serena Ryan and Pete Dillon, a senior Salvation Army official said that non-celibate LGBT people should be put to death.
The official, Major Andrew Craibe, is the Salvation Army’s Territorial Media Relations Director for the Southern Territory in Victoria. Australian pop star Darren Hayes, the openly gay former lead singer of Savage Garden, recently called for a boycott of the Salvation Army because of the church’s anti-gay beliefs (just as Bilerico founder Bil Browning did here in the States). Hayes’s comments caused quite the firestorm, so Major Craibe appeared on Ryan and Dillon’s radio show, Salt and Pepper, to discuss the Salvation Army’s official position on homosexuality and whether it’s evolved over time.
Below is the interview with Salvation Army Major Andrew Craibe in full:
Ryan told Craibe that she prepared for the interview by reading all 170 pages of Salvation Story: Salvationist Handbook of Doctrine, a manual published by the group’s international headquarters in London and available online. She asked him if that text was still being used to coach Salvation Army soldiers and people preparing to enter church membership. When Craibe replied in the affirmative, Ryan proceeded to point out several chapters that she found particularly troubling, including a section called “The problem of evil” (page 28) which cites Romans 1:18-32, the section of the Bible containing an infamous and violent condemnation of homosexuality:
For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error. . .
They know God’s decree, that those who practise such things deserve to die—yet they not only do them but even applaud others who practise them.
Ryan expressed incredulity that the official Salvation Army handbook cites a scriptural passage which calls for the execution of LGBT people, and asked Craibe how he would respond to a hypothetical LGBT person receiving guidance from the Salvation Army who discovers the homophobic citation (around the 7:00 mark).
RYAN: . . . that says, according to the Salvation Army, that [they] deserve death. How do you respond to that, as part of your doctrine?
CRAIBE: Well, that’s a part of our belief system.
RYAN (cutting in): So we should die.
CRAIBE: You know, we have an alignment to the Scriptures, but that’s our belief.
RYAN: Wow. So we should die.
They then discussed the handbook’s section on sin (pages 61-63), which cites the same passage from Romans.
RYAN: It’s going into Romans again . . . I accept that you’re out there wanting to help people . . . I don’t accept that this sexuality that is part of my DNA is a choice. I also don’t accept the support of any religion in a financial sense, and this is what the gay community is up in arms about: that you’re proposing in your religious doctrine and the way that you train — this is part of your training of your soldiers — that because we’re gay, that — we must die. If you go to Romans, book 1, 18-32, it’s all there, mate. I mean, how can you stand by that? How is that Christian?
CRAIBE: Well, well, because that is part of our Christian doctrine –
RYAN (interrupting): But how is that Christian? Shouldn’t it be about love?
CRAIBE: — that’s our understanding of that. Well, the love that we would show is about that: consideration for all human beings to come to know salvation –
RYAN: Or die. . .
CRAIBE: Well, yes.
Later on, Ryan pressed Craibe again on his statement that LGBT people deserve death, asking at 10:23:
RYAN: Honestly, Andrew, tell me — as a human being, how can you qualify that?
CRAIBE: Well, I qualify by way of, that’s where my belief system is structured, you know? It’s what it comes to, that salvation story, and that we can be redeemed from that. That’s my belief.
Check out the interview in full; it’s pretty unbelievable. Some other highlights: Ryan and Dillon (left) asking Craibe to explain just how the Salvation Army polices its members to ensure they aren’t “practicing” homosexuality and questioning him about allegations that the group refused assistance to a person in need who wouldn’t agree to participate in an “ex-gay” program; Major Craibe claiming that homosexuality is a choice that, like consuming alcohol, needs to be “resisted” (Ryan and Dillon shoot that one down right away); his defense that the Salvation Army’s anti-gay statements only apply to its members – as though that somehow absolves the group of any responsibility for its bigoted views — and Craibe asserting that people disturbed by the radical homophobia of the Salvation Army should still contribute financially to the group.
Though confronting bigots is an unrewarding and tiresome process, it must be done if we are to remain civilised, responsible folk. ‘Major’ Craibe’s willful stupidity, coupled with certainty he knows his God’s schemata for the world and human behaviour constitute real threats to real people in the real world.
To justify their absolutism and propensity for viciousness, fascists of the Craibe variety invariably base their opinions on texts they consider authoritative, unchanging and unchallengeable, rather than on observation of natural phenomena and reason. Instead of living in a morally complex, dangerous world, Craibe chooses to operate in the safe environs of an illusory one run by fiat of a vapourous, antique god.
In the real world, human sexual behaviour serves many ends and includes a multitude of relationships and emotions: friendship facilitates coöperation, love furthers social cohesion, screwing may serve to propagate the species. All these undertakings can be a source of pleasure, creativity and personal enhancement for the participants, whateveer the assortment of genders involved.
They become destructive only when they involve coercion or contrive to serve an unethical ulterior purpose. “Sin’ is beside the point, and te relationship involves no third party in heaven.
RainbowPhoenix if your attitude wasn’t so laughable I’d cry.
First of all with all my posts I’d like you to actually quote anywhere that I have displayed “apologism toward bigots” and where I have criticised “anyone who isn’t sufficiantly deferential to the people attacking us”….do you understand the difference between criticism and stating opinion?
Also while your at it, can you quote from my posts where I have “repeatedly brought up the bigots’ religious beliefs and portrayed it as the only reason we’re criticising them”, I think you will find that a bit of a challenge.
Oh, here is another one, where have I said anything about being “”nice” enough in how they handle being beaten? Oh, I didn’t? Wonder that.
There is “no dialogue to shut down”? That’s part of the problem, you don’t encourage any dialogue you rant and rave elevating your stress levels, those against you do the same thing and everyone walks away more angry than when they started and further away from any resolution.
“So now I’m being “subversive””…..ah maybe you should re-read my post and you will note I was talking about those attacking us. Your approach just pushes them away and they will attack from a hidden position rather than out in the open.
Now where did I “criticize people for fighting in any way that’s not sufficiantly “civil” to the people trying to destroy us.”? Again I truly believe that your own anger taints your ability to understand a differing of opinion in how to fight the same fight.
And lastly could you explain how my ” “tact” involves asking our abusers “nicely” to stop beating us”? I gather you have no respect for the actions of visionaries and leaders like Ghandi, Nelson Mandella and Martin Luther King…all who chose non-violent approaches and achieve so much.
Maybe you could really take time to read this and understand before you just bludgeon me with your tirade.
I read and understand just fine Ben.
You have displayed nothing but apologism for the bigots based on their claim that their hatred comes from their “religious beliefs”. You have also repeatedly attacked me and others for daring to express anger.
“Religion is not going away”. That was your response when we called out a bigot for his hatred. The only purpose for such a comment in that context is to portray the bigots as victims of religious persecution and perpetuation of the myth that not letting them attack us somehow violates their religious freedom.
You have done nothing but criticize others for daring to express anger for being attacked unprovoked.
There is no dialogue to be encouraged. They want us dead. That is the only resolution they will accept. Why should we assist them in our own destruction?
Your were clearly talking about me being “subversive” by not “dialoguing” with people who want to kill me.
You have done nothing but criticize me and others for our supposed lack of “civility” and for daring to express anger.
That is a blatent and deliberite misrepresentation of my argument. Non-violent resistance does not entail asking nicely for what we deserve by virtue of being alive as you are suggesting.
Maybe you should start listening to what the bigots actually say and the damage it causes before you criticize others for being angry and throwing out platitudes about “civility”.
Well RainbowPhoenix, you have proven my point. There is no basis in your posts about how I have positioned myself. Ive always stated that to argue and fight for our rights is what should be done, what I have also stated is that use your anger correctly and you will achieve more.
Your clearly a gay extremist who is angry at everyone who has a different opinion to your own. That’s going to make life a constant battle for you.
I don’t know your background, your experiences or even what you have achieved to date. But I do know that when the legislators meet around the table to recognise and protect our rights there won’t be any yelling or abusive extremists invited to the discussions.
But I’ll be be sure to recommend you for the next pep rally where I need to stir up a mob.
Ben, you said none of those things until after you were called out on your apologism and insistance on being nice to the people who want to destroy us. You clearly have no argument since you have not even attempted to actually adress any of my points and are instead trying to write me for daring to express anger at the things our community faces on a daily basis. You clearly have no desire for dialouge. You just want a soapbox so you can rant about how we need to be “civil” and take offense at anyone who dares to do anything other than beg for what we should have by virtue of being alive. As long as you insist on apologizing for the bigots and demanding that we be “civil” with them no matter what they do to us you are part of the problem. Your apologism makes the bigots think they can deny us our rights while hiding behind their religion. Your apologism makes the bigots think they’re justified in abusing the younger members of our community to death. Your apologism makes the bigots think they can throw their gay children out on the street because their religion says they should. Your apologism makes them think they can revive the Nazi’s plans for us. Your lack of anger over those things suggests that there is something seriously wrong with you. If you’re really on our side that is.
At 17:35, “His (the Salvation Army officer) position did’nt change”…..So are we, who disagree with allowing homosexuals/lesbians to marry, to change our position to suit you?…
“For the Word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written,
“ I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And the cleverness of the clever I will set aside.” First book of Corinthians, Chapter 1 verse 18&19..“
“All flesh is like grass,
And all its glory like the flower of grass.
The grass withers,
And the flower falls off,
But the word of the Lord endures forever.” First book of Peter Ch 1: v24-25…..”The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance”. Second book of Peter Ch3 : v 9. Worth considering…… Regards,
Me and my house mate stayed at a salvation army hostel in the uk and we had nothing but abuse off loads of the staff. The one person we thought would be homophobic like the rest of the staff was not like that the chaplin a man of god himself didnt care if we where gay or not. Its not the handbook that needs changing its the way that they teach the people that work within the salvation army more to the point the staff not to be like the rest of the world.
[...] response to our recent article about an Australian Salvation Army official who asserted that homosexuals deserve to die, some [...]
Serena, it was hypocritical for you to say that your radio program is not one sided or gives a fair go, that’s untrue. That’s bigoted. Homosexuality is not genetic, it is not a matter of DNA only-you know that’s a misrepresentation! It is a combination of environment and genes. A single person who is Christian agrees to Christian practices must be celibate, likewise homosexual people must be celibate if they want to subscribe to Christianity. The single and the homosexual are on an even Parr. So lets not pretend that Christians are evil for saying homosexuals must be celibate, so must singles! So that’s not homophobia, as you accuse. Happy to talk more.
Quinton it is a lie that you place single people and gays on even ground. You don’t threaten single people with death if they stop being single. Condemning us to a life of loneliness or death if we reject the former is the height of bigotry.
Almost all of the protest revolves around homosexality being a right based on gnetics. However the scientific evidence doesn’t seem to support this.
LGBTQ Policy Journal at the Harvard Kennedy School: 2011 Edition
“I Was Born this Way”: Is Sexuality Innate, and Should It Matter?
by Joseph Osmundson
Joseph Osmundson is currently a graduate student in biophysics at the Rockefeller University in New York City where he studies protein structure and function. He has also taught students at the middle school, high school, and college levels and is currently an Adjunct Professor of Biology at The New School where he is teaching a course examining the use of imaging in biology.
The biological understanding of sexuality is important in policy and law. This article reviews the evidence that sexuality is biologically based and finds it inconclusive. It then examines the ramifications of a case where a well-studied gene is associated with gender nonconformity and lesbianism, which are treated as part of the pathology of the disorder. The article assesses the legal importance of the immutability of sexuality and considers examples where courts have conferred or denied lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender rights based upon scientific data. Lastly, the article argues that, given the evidence presented, rights for minorities should not rely on biological definitions.
So when did you choose your sexuality Glenn?
Glenn:
You obviously like to cherry pick science to fit your beliefs. Actually, science does find that sexual orientation is biologically based.
http://nymag.com/news/features/33520/
While more studies need to be conducted, to prematurely come to the false conclusion you have smells of an agenda.
Furthermore, it is fundies that claim the importance of genetics, not the LGBT community. In a truly free country it would not matter, now would it?
When we say that we believe that we were “born this way” it is not a political statement, but simply statement of our experience, that is, coincidentally, supported by science. And the more studies that come out, the more support we will have.
Sorry to burst your bubble.
I got twenty bucks on him being attracted to men!!
the debate is still open as there is little scientific evidence that gay people are born gay. Narcissistic people are not born narcissists it is a behavioural problem but we dont condemn them for it
im not saying I agree with the SA, I dont, but we need open controlled debate not this hysterical outpouring of indignation. As a hetrosexual I support gay marriages but saying boycott donating to the Salvation Army is simply stupid. The salvation army help everyone with out judgement
What he said is not everyone’s point of view in the Salvation Army.
I also want to say. You guys are saying that he should not be judging you
and not judge the LGBT community, but u are judging him.
Lead by example.
I do not condone whet he said but I think ALL people need to look in
the mirror before passing ANY judgement on ANYONE.
One last thing I want to leave you with an example.
You have a child who steals $50 out of your wallet to get pot and do
underage drinking. U find out. Most of us as parents would punish our
child for doing something wrong, but does that mean we don’t love them
because we punish them? NO. We still love our child that’s why we do punish
them.
Just a thought.
Thanks
Dee14
I feel it is ok to judge someone who called for our DEATH!
Also, in reference to your little tale at the end there…
Are you saying that LGBT people are inherantly bad and deserve to be punished, because god loves us?!?!
Honey, I think you may have stumbled onto the wrong blog…
Dee14 what a passive-aggressive, monstrous post. I hope you are not breeding and that last bit was about hypothetical offspring.
We will judge all these savages! It’s payback time after millennia of superstition and ignorance and abuse.
Dee, when you think your “child” should be punished with death that is not love.
Steve, there is little scientific evidence that people are born strraight, ewither. Not a hetero gene in sight.
Dee, I’m confused. You’re comparing someone being gay with a child stealing? Seems like a really fishy comparison.
Steve said “The salvation army help everyone with out judgement.”.
That’s not true. They have been known to insist that gay couples end their relationship before they would give them help.
What the Salvos say is right that the Bible is truth but they do help anyone without judgement.They have strict standards for their own Salvation Army Officers no alcohol,no smoking,no drugs,no gossiping either and no sexual perversions above marriage to one man and one woman. They do not condemn non believers in the Bible. This man spoke out of his flesh.
Cobber it is a bald-faced lie that the SA helps anyone without judgement. A five second internet search will reveal what they do to gay people seeking their help and how much of the money they get through donations is spent on stopping any laws that protect LGBT people. But I suspect you’re not interested in any of that since it will make the SA look like the bigoted organization it is.
Cobber said “They do not condemn non believers in the Bible.”.
Not true:
2 Chronicles 15:10-13
So they gathered themselves together at Jerusalem in the third month, in the fifteenth year of the reign of Asa.
11 And they offered unto the Lord the same time, of the spoil which they had brought, seven hundred oxen and seven thousand sheep.
12 And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul;
13 That whosoever would not seek the Lord God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.
Deuternomy– i forget the exact passage. `13 something or something 13.
Slay all the unbelievers in your midst. Sow their fields with salt. (If I recall). Change all the passwords on their accounts to strings of random numbers. (All right. I made that one up.)
This poor man was truly hung out to dry, he was obviously unprepared and unburied for the interview, and it was grossly biased and unfair.
No one is suggesting the execution of gay men or women, or anyone else for that matter, and the Salvation Army stands against all forms of discrimination across the whole world.
As to being under the judgement of God, and the eventual sentence of death for sin, well that applies to all people, not particularly to the gay community, it is a sentence tha God will freely and graciously forgive, if we ask him. Can you be gay and Christian? Frankly, I don’t know, and have enough trouble keeping myself on the straight (sic) and narrow without wanting to make such judgements on others.
Homosexuality might be considered sinful, but homphobia is also sinful, and in my humble view, worse.
Perhaps army officers need to be better prepared for such encounters
Peter Birch
Auto-spelling strikes again, I meant unprepared, not unburied.
listen to encouragement… and not death New International Version (©1984)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3eqkYSt2Rk
from now on Says the Lord,, who ever curses you will be cursed and who ever blesses you will be blessed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3eqkYSt2Rk
[...] discriminate against hiring gays. Most recently, an Australian Salvation Army Major said that gays “deserve to die” for their [...]