This is a must-read post. It’s a long one, but trust me, it’s worth it. Blogger, playwright, and composer Wayne Self weighed in on the Chick-fil-A controversy late last month and his post went viral, generating over a million views. It also generated a lot of letters from conservative, anti-LGBT Christians complaining that they felt silenced, marginalized, and persecuted by society for holding anti-equality religious beliefs. Self’s brilliant response expands on Aesop’s fable of the lion and the mouse and uses it to explain how hollow these claims really are:
The way I see it, in terms of power in this country, conservative Christians are the Lion; we LGBT folks are the Mouse.
I know you may not feel this way, but remember:
- It’s not illegal to be a conservative Christian in any state, never was, and never will be, thanks to the Constitution. Until a Supreme Court ruling 2003, gay sex was actually illegal in many states.
- Conservative Christians enjoy the full equality and protection of the law, including marriage and employment protections. You can’t be fired for being a Christian. I can be fired for being gay. Here’s a breakdown of the legal struggles that LGBT people face in every state.
- Conservative Christians may get “bashed” in the media. LGBT people get actually, literally bashed, sometimes to death. It’s an epidemic and it’s on the rise. Here are some hate crime statistics for you to peruse.
- Conservative Christians form a powerful, organized, well-funded voting bloc that has helped to keep marriage equality and other equal rights provisions off the table for LGBT people in many states.
As a person who identifies as both gay and Christian, I do understand that Christians can sometimes face social sanction. I will recognize that being a Christian isn’t always easy and that it hurts when municipalities level consequences at people who speak their minds. I certainly understand.
Did you know that Tennessee introduced a bill making it illegal even say the word “gay” in public schools? Yes. I understand.
But it’s important for you to recognize that there is a vast difference between facing ridicule or even occasional civic rejection, and facing systematic social and political inequality. There is a vast difference between being told you’re superstitious or old-fashioned and being told you’re an abomination that doesn’t deserve to live. There’s a vast difference between being told you’re acting hateful and being told God hates you.
I’ve been gay and Christian all my life. Trust me: Christian is easier. It’s not even close.
I’m the Mouse.
You’re the Lion.
Then Self moves on to the issue of heterosupremacy and cuts right to the reason for all the hysterical, anti-gay shrieking from the Religious Right:
Supremacy turns to hate when the feeling of innate superiority is openly challenged.
That outraged feeling you have of being oppressed or silenced just because pop culture doesn’t like you, and Rahm Emmanuel threatened to keep Chick-Fil-A out of Chicago? That’s the feeling a supremacist gets when her cultural superiority is being eroded.
Supremacy is why you and Bristol Palin have more outrage at your own inconvenience than at the legitimate oppression of others.
Supremacy is what causes you to believe that whatever status or privilege you enjoy is the will of God, so that the very act of fighting you politically is an ungodly act.
Supremacy is what allows you to think it only natural that your mere belief should be favored over my clear argument, or that your firmly-held opinion should be favored over my impassioned plea.
For me, the best part of Self’s post is when he calls attention to an often-overlooked injustice that’s built into the LGBT rights debate: “To you, even entertaining the idea of my equality is a gesture for which I should be grateful. To me, it’s an indignity that I even have to ask.”
Brilliant!
-It is not illegal to be gay.
-I believe that police do not ask sexual orientation before protecting people
-There are no “Gays only” court rooms. I can sue or be sued by someone who is gay just as easily as someone who is not.
-To fire someone because they are gay is not legal, and grounds for a huge lawsuit.
-kids with a speech impediment get bashed, poor kids get bashed, blacks get bashed, immigrant workers get bashed, people who talk with accents get bashed, poor people get bashed, rich people get bashed, people who bash get bashed.
-Some people find the word gay offensive, mostly gays. I believe this is liability protection on the schools part.
-Rahm Emmanual is a politician making decisions to help his career, there are almost zero politicians that make decisions for the good of the people they actually represent, they have their career and votes to tend to after all.
-I do not recognize an oppression, gays can vote, own property, receive education where they wish, start a business, run for office, teach, practice law, and move freely from state to state.
MRNDA, much of what you said is materially false.
First, it is illegal to be gay in many countries, and the Family Research Council lobbies to make it illegal in the United States.
From there, your falsehoods become more blatant. Substantiate your assertions, or face possible deletion for trolling.
As a matter of policy, antigay assertions must be factually documented. This is not a forum for reckless accusation.
The quote above: “To you, even entertaining the idea of my equality is a gesture for which I should be grateful…..” MRNDA, you didn’t absorb a damned thing from this article, but you obviously firmly believe the above quote.
So seeing that being gay is perfectly OK with the world, you wouldn’t mind if you were gay, would you? It is just like being straight, right? Especially in the eyes of the law. Read the Constitution sometime. It clearly states several times the words: equal, equally, etc. Nowhere does it give your personal religious beliefs dominance over me as a citizen equal to you. Yet, I am not your equal under the law. Until I can get married legally and have it recognized by the government, I will NOT BE YOUR EQUAL!
You point out all the things that gay people can do and have same as you, but you forget that it isn’t long ago that none of those things were sure nor a reality for us. To this day gay people get refused services by dedicated, loving people like yourself. It was only through the fight for justice and equal treatment that those “rights” you toss out were “GRANTED” to us. Yes, “GRANTED” by the courts, not by fair minded and loving people like yourself. We had to and still have to fight for every inch of equal treatment that you generously toss into our faces in your screed.
Look into your heart, sir. Would you mind being gay in today’s world? After all, we are, all of us, treated so equally, right?
@ mrnda
You make multiple factual errors in your post.
1. It was in fact illegal until the SCOTUS decision (2003)in a number of states to have gay sex, even in the privacy of your own home. The case in 2003 and the case prior that the 2003 decision overturned were both based on illegal police invasions of private homes and the subsequent arrest of men for engaging in gay sex.
To say that its legal to be gay but not to have gay sex and not see that as a false dichotomy is as ludicrous as saying that you can be a dairy farmer but not milk the cows.
Even today, discrimination against gay people is legal in 31 states – not just marriage discrimination, I’m talking about housing discrimination, job discrimination, the whole lot. The federal government does not discriminate in hiring or job placement (http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/fs-orientation_parent_marital_political.html) – but the employment non discrimination act (EDNA) has never passed, although it is introduced by the Democrats faithfully. It seemed poised to pass last year, but failed yet again. The GOP simply won’t let it through. So state law is still king on the issue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment_Non-Discrimination_Act) Is being gay REALLY legal then? When if you say you are gay you might lose your job and your house in more than half the country? I would say not. Without equality under the law, which we do not have in many places, we are not legal in fact, only as a rhetorical exercise, like the one you make here.
As for owning property — in the liberal Northeastern state where we live, when we moved to our own (owned) home in 2000 — in 2000!!!! we had to purchase in the county NEXT to the county where we wanted to live because it was still legal in that county, in 2000!!! for a bank to automatically foreclose on the home of any person “found to be homosexual or to engage in homosexual conduct.” 2000, in a liberal state. It was 2004, as the state moved toward full equality, that the Democrats finally mustered the votes, in that neighboring county (where I work, btw) to break the filibuster in the county legislature and actually repeal the law.
In many major cities, like them or not, gay ghettos exist (remember ghettos were NOT places of poverty originally, they were places where large numbers of a given minority congregated, both because they were permitted to and for mutual protection — as in the Jewish ghettos in Europe, or areas like the West Village and the Castro here — and the Gold Coast and a set area in most major cities actually, where gay people have historically gathered.) There is discussion that the gay ghettos in the major cities of more liberal states are now dispersing. Why? Because we really can be integrated now, and we don’t need them. Don’t look for them to disappear soon in cities where prejudice is still the rule of law statewide however.
Yes there is bullying about almost anything, and you seem to suggest that because of that, bullying LGBTQ kids is ok. Let me say the opposite sir or madam. NO BULLYING IS EVER OK. FOR WHATEVER REASON. Don’t bully gay kids, injured kids, ethnic kids; don’t bully on race, color, sex, sexual orientation, height, weight, or even religion. Don’t bully. Love one another. It makes for a far better world.
Your post is mostly specious. If you are serious about thinking about issues rather than being a political hack, please seriously consider what I’ve written. Perhaps you should rethink some of your positions. If you are actually fighting because you are a bigot and this is a forum, so be it – go for it.
Regards,
Reyn
Mrnda said “-To fire someone because they are gay is not legal, and grounds for a huge lawsuit.”.
False. In most states an employer can legally fire a person just for being gay.
Mrnda said “-I do not recognize an oppression, gays can vote, own property, receive education where they wish, start a business, run for office, teach, practice law, and move freely from state to state.”.
You’re implying that because gays have some of the same rights as everyone else that they therefore have ALL of the rights of everyone else – that is a fallacy. Just because gays have a right to vote and start a business does not justify denying them the right to marry, adopt, or not be fired from their job or evicted from their home just for being gay.
@Mike I am not talking about other countries, just this one.
———————–
ET AL- I realize it is not legal in a majority of states to get married, however to say civil rights do not exist for gays is a lie. In the 30s and 40s blacks did not have civil rights this nowhere near the same issue.
Laws change, society changes, what happened a decade ago is not what I am talking about. With an eye on the past I prefer to remain in the today.
I fully understand that one day it will be legal for gays to get married and will be recognized federally, I make no opposition to this movement. I am not anti-gay, however I do not agree with it. I do not protest against it, I do not donate money against it; I do not even look down on it. But I believe there is a design for humans, a purpose for marriage, and I will vote against it. I am in no way angry and am open to consider any facts, I go to lengths to learn about views and positions opposite to my own. There are enough things to filter people by without needing to use sexual orientation as one of them, it is base and has nothing to do with a person’s character or way they live. I treat every person I meet fairly and make my assessment of them based on how they live their lives, not on religious, sexual, racial, or ethnic orientation.
As for outdated laws, there are still states where a husband can still beat his wife, where it is illegal for a married couple to have sex in any other position than missionary. It was not too long ago that laws existed ordering the murder of Mormon people, where is the outcry for this?
The constitution does not speak against slavery; I guess it must be okay to have slaves then?
“I” did not toss out rights, “I” cannot grant rights, “I” do not discriminate against people at a base level. I do not envy anyone who is gay, I cannot imagine how difficult it is, the emotional challenges that come with it, the hardship and shame society places with it… There is no way I would want to be gay. This is, as far as my understanding, not a choice a person makes but is how they are born.
I am not trolling or bigoted; I just have an opposing view but am open to learning. Delete me if you like, or enlighten me with relevant current facts to our society. Real oppression exists outside of our countries borders, not everything in our borders is fair but oppression is not the wholly accurate
mrnda, nice trying to backpedal. No one here denied there was a gay civil rights movement. They just said that we don’t have equal rights–and we don’t. The best example of this right now is DOMA, which means that even in states where gay marriage is legal the couples still don’t have equal rights because the Federal Govt CAN’T not won’t recognize the marriage.
Also, the constitution does speak against slavery–have you read the 13th Amendment?
mrnda, why would you vote against us having legally recognized relationships if you don’t look down on us?
Mrnda said ” I realize it is not legal in a majority of states to get married, however to say civil rights do not exist for gays is a lie.”.
Once again, you’re trying to suggest that because gays have some of the same civil rights as everyone else they therefore aren’t deprived of any civil rights – that IS a lie. No one on our side is saying gays don’t have any civil rights so we are not lying, you are.
@Daniel, no pack pedal just not emotionally charged as others on this page, and amendments are not original to the constitution. The references to equality are organic to the constitution as it was written, do to its not speaking about slavery it was amended. If the government can prevent they can allow. I am unfamiliar with DOMA and will have to research it.
@Pria, except the option to marry all other civil rights are afforded to gays.
@Rainbow, just because I do not share your position on the issue does not mean i look down on you. I do not agree with assault weapons being in homes, I do not look down on those who have them. I do not agree with alot of things, i do not look down on those who have opposing views to my own.
You are expressing much more than a disagreement mrnda. You have stated that you would do something that would directly harm us if presented with the oppurtunity to do so. Why would you do that if you only “disagree” with us? How can you disagree with someone’s right to be protected by the law in the same way others are?
It is also patently false that we have every other civil right besides marriage. We still have no federal employment protections. Our children face an epidemic of bullying and homelessness.
What exactly do you need to research regarding DOMA? How much more do you need than an explicit ban on any legal protections for our families on the federal level?
@mrnda
So much of what you have to say is unfortunately misinformed and some of the “emotionally charged” comments have addressed this. You are privileged to be straight so we will understand that your comments are not so “emotionally charged.” I will only address one issue, where you seem to need the most education. You say to Pria, “except the option to marry all other civil rights are afforded to gays.” You are sadly misinformed. Surely you are aware that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 which established that this country would no longer sanction discrimination against certain groups of people (most notably racial, ethnic, and religious minorities and women)failed to include sexual orientation and gender identity under its protection. Therefore, the protection of civil rights for LGBT people is left in the hands of the states, 29 of which do not afford said protection for LGB people and 34 do not for trans people. In other words, despite the fact that we are citizens and supposedly granted equal protection of the law under the 14th Amendment, we like all those other minorities before 1964 are in reality not afforded our civil rights. This is not hard to grasp, especially if one grasped it in the case of those other minorities and one truly lacks animus against us as a minority.
mrnda, no, there was a backpedal. And the reason the people on this website get involved is because these things effect us personally. If your rights were being denied you might get “emotionally charged” too.
mrnda, you don’t know about DOMA but you have the nerve to come here and preach at us? You seem to be really ignorant of what you’re commenting on. Why don’t you do the research BEFORE you make uninformed comments?
Hello mrnda, thank you for your contributions to this discussion. There is one thing you’ve stated that has particularly gotten under my skin a bit.
“I believe there is a design for humans”
Evolutionary processes always come along with variance. No human is alike. No human’s purpose is the same. When you say that procreation is the pure design of human existence, you are either saying that those who do not procreate are going against nature or that they are not really even human. That’s at least how I read your statement.
Consider a bee hive. How many contributing parties are involved in the procreative process? Is it also possible that not all of us have been “designed” to be heterosexual? Do we not contribute as humans if we are not heterosexual? We, as humans, are far more complex than our genitalia.
Allow us to contribute in the ways we were designed.
Mrnda-re your “back-pedalling” comment: Thank you SO much for your “compassion and love” for we gays. What B.S.! Your comments are phony as a three dollar bill. OF COURSE you hate gays! Who are you kidding? Your only compassion is for your own selfish, incorrect, stupid beliefs.
@MRNDA “-To fire someone because they are gay is not legal, and grounds for a huge lawsuit.”
‘No, that’s a myth. In 29 states (except for certain big cities that have sexual orientation included in their anti-discrimination ordinance), it is legal to fire, or refuse to hire, someone because they are gay, and here’s nothing they can do about it. There are 34 states that offer no protection for transgenders.
The main exceptions are the few employees who are unionized and have clauses in their collective agreements that prohibit dismissal without cause or due to sexual orientation. Even there, there is no protection against discrimination in hiring.
@MRNDA” -I do not recognize an oppression, gays can vote, own property, receive education where they wish, start a business, run for office, teach, practice law, and move freely from state to state.”
The fact that you do not recognize the oppression doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Gays are discriminated against in hiring, promotion and employment benefits, in schools and in hospitals. Their marriages and domestic partnerships are legally ignored; as a result, they pay extra taxes yet get fewer benefits, and in some cases their children are only allowed to have one live-in legally recognized parent.
LGB youths are bullied, prevented from meeting their peers, and kept ignorant of their history and safe-sex information. Some are forced to undergo damaging treatments and kicked out of their homes.
@MRNDA “I realize it is not legal in a majority of states to get married, however to say civil rights do not exist for gays is a lie. In the 30s and 40s blacks did not have civil rights this nowhere near the same issue.”
Actually,in some ways, the oppression of LGBs in the USA, especially the South, is worse than what Blacks have faced since the 30s and 40s. Blacks were never condemned by their own churches, forced to take harmful treatments to change themselves into whites, nor kicked out of their parents’ home for being Black. Ask a straight African-American boy whether he would prefer to be a white gay boy. The answer will be no homo; he’d rather be Black than gay. That says something about who is being oppressed now. Of course, some LGBs are African-American and are doubly disadvantaged.
@MRNDA”I do not envy anyone who is gay, I cannot imagine how difficult it is, the emotional challenges that come with it, the hardship and shame society places with it… There is no way I would want to be gay. This is, as far as my understanding, not a choice a person makes but is how they are born.”
Good. We agree on this.
@MRNDA”Real oppression exists outside of our countries borders, not everything in our borders is fair but oppression is not the wholly accurate.”
Yes, the situation for LGBs is worse in most of the rest of world. However, even in sub-Saharan African dictatorships, I wouldn’t be surprised if their straight residents would prefer to stay as they are than become gay Americans if that was possible.
Unfortunately, the lead that the USA once had respecting human rights and democracy has dissipated. Western Europe is now ahead of the US. Even South America is starting to get ahead.
@ Priya/Edward – where are you bared from voting, going to school, running for office, purchasing a firearm, entering the military, teaching, or free speech? I do not see a reduction of civil rights save the option to marry in every state of the union. I do not see straight only signs, i do not see gay drinking fountains, gay restrooms, gay playgrounds, gay seating only etc. To say there are no civil rights due to the , as of yet, unavailable option to marry is a gross exaggeration.
@ Daniel- I do realize people on this website are personally affected by the issues here, where better for me to get an understanding of an opposing view than from those who hold it so dear. I am not angered by any comments on this blog, I realize it is a very personal for the people here and i am not trying to offend. I may have been mistaken in assuming that things could be discussed as adults, not directed to you Daniel. I respect people until they give me a reason not to, and this has nothing to do with sexual orientation, race, religion, occupation etc. I do thank you for your comment it seems to have been posted with sincerity.
@Becky (the real one) I do not know anything about DOMA because i have never had a reason to look it up, i am sure people here have made a comment about the military without having studied the UCMJ or actually served.
@ Michael – I agree with your statements that every one contributes; a person’s abilities, gifts, and added support has nothing to do with sexual orientation. I do not take the position that gays have no place in society and have nothing to contribute, that is on a person to person basis. I did not say that procreation is the pure design of human existence, there are plenty of people who are not gay who either cannot or will not have children.
@Jerry – i said nothing about compassion about “we gays” if i hated gays why would i open my self to this straight bashing session, thanks for calling me stupid NOW I understand every point made here, your contribution is much appreciated. You have performed admirably and spoken eloquently on the groups behalf, when next I have an open minded discussion with someone who has a different position than my own I shall (if you do not mind) pull this pearl of wisdom out of my back pocket and enlighten them with the irrefutable and earth shattering position of telling them they have “stupid beliefs”, brilliance in action.
@Rainbow- I have never done anything to directly harm “us”. As stated before I realize that it will eventually be legal for gays to get married. (also is it offensive to use the word “gays” it seems as if it would be but I am not sure so if there is a better term please let me know- sincerely) and this does not anger me. A vote is what a person prefers, what they would choose. My preference and choice are different than your own that is all. As i stated i do not feel passionately enough to stand and protest, partake in groups who hand out fliers, attend speeches, or give money to any efforts to stop gay marriage, it is inevitable that this will come to pass and takes nothing away from my marriage or my family. I feel conviction in my beliefs but am open minded enough to try and attain an understanding about the opposite view. Personally in your shoes i would be offended by the president who uses personal issues such as gay marriage to garner votes during his re-election campaign, be not pawns.
To All- Try to remove yourself from the issues at hand (not being sarcastic). If you were to create a new world and could go shopping for the things to be in that world would you, knowing all the struggles anxiety and anguish that goes with it, pull homosexuality off of the shelf and put it in your basket?
mrnda you are lying through your teeth now.
Marriage comes with over a thousand legal benefits, benefits we are unilaterally denied. Gay youth have been driven out of their schools and homes. It is only recently that we removed the ban on military service. We have been denied housing and employment.
You have made no attempt to discuss this as an adult and you have not given us the slightest bit of respect. You just insult us and lie about us.
So you admit you are trying to argue something without doing any research. I’m not sure how complicated a unilateral ban on legal relationship recognition is but that’s beside the point.
So your claim about there being a design for humans is a complete non-sequitor.
There is no “straight-bashing” here. Only retaliation against your verbal gay-bashing and willful ignorance. You are not having an open-minded discussion. You are attempting to insult us and belittle our experiences.
If a vote is what a person prefers than that means your preference is that gay people be harmed and denied the protections of the law. That is bald-faced bigotry no matter how you try to dress it up. That “preference” is born only from hatred for a group of people. You think because you’re not screaming your hatred from street corners that makes it better? It doesn’t. Your conviction is that we should be discriminated against and you have expressed no desire to see our side your the damage your convictions have caused.
The only struggles and anquish we experience is because of people like you. You are the reason the law does not protect us. You are the reason so many of our youth are killing themselves to escape your abuse. You are the reason people feel entitled to attack and murder us. You are the problem. Not being gay.
You are not the victim mrnda. You are the aggressor. You came here and started attacking us, insulting us, and lying about us with no provocation. You admitted that you would take actions that would directly harm us if given the oppurtunity. You admitted that you do not think the law should protect us as it does you. We have the right to defend ourselves and exercising that right violates none of yours. You are a bigot and a bully with an over-developed entitlement complex and we see no need to give you special treatment.
Mrnda said “@ Priya/Edward – where are you bared from voting, going to school, running for office, purchasing a firearm, entering the military, teaching, or free speech? I do not see a reduction of civil rights save the option to marry in every state of the union.”.
As others have pointed out to you and you’ve dishonestly chosen to ignore, despite your assurances the opposite was true, in most states gays and lesbians don’t have the right to not be fired from their jobs or evicted from their homes for being married, gays and lesbian often don’t have the right to adopt, or to see their loved one in the hospital when they are sick.
We never said we didn’t have those other rights, the issue is the rights we DON’T have, not the ones we do. You keep bringing up other rights as though that means we aren’t denied any rights or if we are that it doesn’t matter – that is pure unadulterated B.S. THAT WE HAVE SOME RIGHTS IN NO WAY JUSTIFIES DENYING US OTHER RIGHTS.
Mrnda said “@Rainbow- I have never done anything to directly harm “us”. As stated before I realize that it will eventually be legal for gays to get married. (also is it offensive to use the word “gays” it seems as if it would be but I am not sure so if there is a better term please let me know- sincerely) and this does not anger me. A vote is what a person prefers, what they would choose. My preference and choice are different than your own that is all.”.
No, that most certainly is NOT “all”! Our preferences and choices are different from yours as well, but we don’t choose to seek to deny you the rights we have – you seek to harm us and oppress us, there is a night and day difference between your preference and ours.
You vote to deprive gays of rights and to oppress them, you spread the idea that gays deserve less rights and you help create the environment in which people choose to oppress gays – you ARE directly harming gays.
Mrnda said “If you were to create a new world and could go shopping for the things to be in that world would you, knowing all the struggles anxiety and anguish that goes with it, pull homosexuality off of the shelf and put it in your basket?”.
Of course we would, are you crazy?! If we were creating a new world and shopping for things to be in it we most certainly WOULDN’T select the inequality and bigotry people like you bring to it and without that there would be NO struggles anxiety or anguish to go with gayness.
Mrnda said “@Rainbow- I have never done anything to directly harm “us”. As stated before I realize that it will eventually be legal for gays to get married. (also is it offensive to use the word “gays” it seems as if it would be but I am not sure so if there is a better term please let me know- sincerely) and this does not anger me. A vote is what a person prefers, what they would choose. My preference and choice are different than your own that is all.”.
Mrnda said “If you were to create a new world and could go shopping for the things to be in that world would you, knowing all the struggles anxiety and anguish that goes with it, pull homosexuality off of the shelf and put it in your basket?”.
Oops, I missed the final paragraph:
Mrnda said ““If you were to create a new world and could go shopping for the things to be in that world would you, knowing all the struggles anxiety and anguish that goes with it, pull homosexuality off of the shelf and put it in your basket?”.”.
Of course we would, are you crazy?! If we were creating a world and going shopping for things to be in that world, we WOULDN’T pick the bigotry and denial of equality that results in struggles, anxiety and anguish. YOU and yours are responsible for those struggles anxiety, and anquish, don’t try to pretend your oppression comes from inside gay people themselves.
mrnda, how condescending. You come on here, voice support for limiting our civil rights and then when we respond you claim we are not responding “as adults”.
Also, that you seem to know nothing about laws that effect our lives and yet you seem to think you are entitled to criticize us for fighting against those laws just once again shows that same condescension.
Finally, you keep listing rights that we do have to somehow say that we’re not entitled to the same rights that you have is, once again, condescding. The fact that you keep doing this over and over tells me that you’re not actually reading this to understand where we’re coming from. Yes, we can vote–but that does not make us equal citizens in the eyes of the law. You keep spouting this over and over and haven’t read any of the many responses that tell you what the actual facts are. When someone brings up an actual way in which we do not have equal rights you say “I’m not aware of that” and then make the same arguments that were just refuted.
I don’t think you are acting in an “adult” way. I don’t think you are acting as a sociologist studying the issue in a nonjudgemental way. You’re here to spout your beliefs without ever examining them and then condescending to the people who get frustrated and angy at your wilfull condescension.
You are right, we get angry about these things. If they effected you I would be willing to bet that you wouldn’t be so blaise about them.
mrnda, there’s this thing called “Google”, I bet if you typed DOMA into it you could come up with lots of information. It would be good if you would do some research before you come here and preach at us.
mrnda, also, “respecting me for my comment because it was posted with sincerity”–again, condescending. Especially since I don’t think you’ve actually done any research even after any of this was called to your attention.
mrnda, and again NO ONE SAID WE DON’T HAVE CIVIL RIGHTS that you keep repeating this, once again, says to me that you’re not acting honestly here.
And “straight bashing”, I didn’t realize that you were representing all straight people. There has been no “straight bashing” here.
Also, you are aware that “gay bashing” means that gay people are actually, physically beaten. Once again, you seem to have no sense of proportion because of your entitled position. You seem to think we all owe you some sort of fealty because you are a heterosexual.
I suspect mrnda will now go back to his fello anti-gays and talk about all the gay people “bashing” him.
Finally mrnda, why should we remove ourselves from the issues? These things affect us, that they have no effect on you doesn’t make you better at dealing with them. And though you are pretending that you are above all this it’s just not true. You are just deluding yourself by pretending that you’re neutral on this. I suspect Becky’s right. You’ll now try to use this to show how you were put upon by angry gay people. You’re just dishonest.
mrnda, do you think if we “removed ourselves from the issue” we would come to the conclusion we don’t deserve equal rights?
And how exactly do you propose we “remove ourselves” from an issue that has such a profound effect on our lives? Would you have told slaves to “remove themselves” from the issue of slavery so that they could see the benefits of that evil? Would you have told African Americans to “remove themselves” from the issue of civil rights? How about telling the Jews to “remove themselves” from the issue of genocide during WWII?
What a stupid comment.
And for that matter would you tell Christians or people of other faiths to “remove themselves” from issues of religious freedom. You’re incredibly dishonest.
People of the blog I have to go on travel, i will be checking in on this over the next few days however i will not be posting today.
-I am not anti-gay, and I do not have any anti-gay friends. Someone please give me a list of credible websites to research, not stories of what happend to my buddy or which ever. I do not know anything about the laws that are against gays having rights. I have not verbally bashed any one, i have not called any names or touted about my opinion of gay people or my whole position of marriage. I am wanting to understand the issues wholy if this is the wrong group to learn from then we will see.
-To relate todays issues with gay rights to the aggresive destruction and persecution of Jews or African Americans is absurd. there is no hanging of gays, whiping of gays, papers of ownership placed on gays, or selling of gays. Gay people are not being herded up, their belongings forcible taken away, restricted from practicing law, teaching, practicing medicine, placed into cattle cars and either worked to death or plainly executed.
-Yet another pearl from the real Becky.
mrdna Do we need to teach you how to do the Google? You know, we have lives as well.
And again, the deflection. I didn’t compare gay rights to the persecution of other groups–I asked if you’d tell those groups to “remove themselves” from the issue. Again, you’re dishonest.
mrdna, are you under the impression that anyone here is actually taking you seriously?
Why don’t you answer Becky’s question? Would you tell all those other groups to “remove themselves” from the issue of their human and-or civil rights?
Wow, the level of aggressive ignorance is mind blowing.
We were herded up and put in the camps with the Jews
No hanging or whipping of gays? Tell that to Judy Shepard.
Not have our belongings forceably taken away? Tell that to the grieving gay husband who’s dead partner’s family contest the will because he’s not “family.” Or who loses half to estate tax because the law doesn’t recognize him as “family”
Or refused admittance to his partners hospital bed in his final moments.
I could go on and on, any of us could, but why bother.
You say you choose to vote against our rights, yet you also claim to not be anti-gay.
Let me give you a little tip-
Agree to disagree only applies to discussions with an even playing field. When both side’s opinions have no direct effect on the other. You cannot agree to disagree on discrimination when one side’s views involve infringing on the others life. That makes one side the oppressor. It really is that simple.
By choosing to vote to restrict our rights, you remove all hope of agree to disagree.
If you had said, “I don’t agree with gay marriage but I respect YOUR right to it” that would be agreeing to disagree.
The MOMENT you do anything that directly affects me/us, all hope of intellectual discussion is over.
Well said Doug. Though I don’t know what it would take to get through to this guy.
mrnda, “A vote is what a person prefers, what they would choose. My preference and choice are different than your own that is all.”
This statement is not accurate. The marriage amendment ballot measure is not a personal opinion poll. The question is not “Do you agree with homosexuality.” The question is “Should the government deny couples living as a married unit the rights and responsibilities of civil marriage.”
It is not about your personal opinions on the issue, it is about how you feel the government should discriminate. Yes, the government SHOULD discriminate. Incest, polygamy and pedophelia should not be considered acceptable for the reasons that they are harmful to individuals and therefore to society. Consensual, adult same-sex relationships are not harmful to the individual. In fact, loving, committed relationships are as beneficial for homosexuals as they are for heterosexuals. Marriage should be promoted, encouraged and respected, not arbitrarily restricted.
@mrnda
My God, you’re sad. You’ve never really responded to the fact that LGBT are not free from discrimination in housing and employment in 29 states (34 for trans). That freedom from such discrimination is, wait for it, a civil right and the very core of the Civil Rights Act.
How dare you, with all your privilege, come on here and try to engage in an Oppression Olympics with the one minority that is not protected by the 1964 Civil Rights Act. What discrimination have you suffered, pissant? Your insulting comparison of “today’s gay rights issues” with the past “destruction” of blacks and Jews (perpetrated by bigots like yourself, btw) misses one very important point: blacks and Jews do not suffer that level of destruction today either. And since you are the one who chose to go there, hundreds of years before any African was so inhumanly loaded as cargo on a slaveboat, gay people were being burnt at stakes in the Inqusition. Don’t try your usual evasion that you’re only talking about America either, because the destruction of Jews, which you introduced, happened in Nazi Germany (which also engaged in the extermination of gays).
How dare you so blithely ignore and dismiss, the current reality of LGBT people who comprise the group most likely to be victims of hate crimes in America and the hostile environment which has led an inordinate amount of gay youth to commit suicide. You don’t get to speak for blacks, Jews or any other minority that has suffered bigotry until you learn that it is dismissive attitudes such as yours that allowed that bigotry to flourish. Go learn how to be a decent human being and resist the urge to try lecture (however moronically) people about their own oppresssion, of which you apparently know nothing.
Mrnda said “I am not anti-gay…”.
You said you’d vote against gays having the right to marry, you are by definition anti-gay. How do you expect anyone to take you seriously when you lie so easily?
MRNDA – Here’s a site to help you with your research into the issue of DOMA.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=DOMA
I also recommend the following links for some basics on heteronormative supremacy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supremacism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heteronormativity