Yes, its too easy to forget that, I do try to remember to make a distinction.

Reyn said “A single brush is too big to paint with, and that is almost always true in politics. Nuance is required for success.”.

I agree.

Thank you for your response. I understand your position, but I also understand that many gay people are people of faith and many, many, many straight people who support gay rights are people of faith. I understand that there are many denominations in Christianity that support gay rights; that the largest branch of Judaism is foresquare behind gay rights and that many non-Christian faiths (Unitarianism, Wicca, etc.) support gay rights.

A single brush is too big to paint with, and that is almost always true in politics. Nuance is required for success.

Kind thoughts,

Reyn

PS If for some reason you question my truthfulness, please visit my site, which I think links from my name. I’ve been at this a long time, and by simply providing information in a totally vanilla site have over the years helped (at least from emails I’ve gotten) several dozen people leave fundevanglicalism, which from the perspective of human rights, is the problem.

Thank you. EXACTLY my point. EXACTLY my point!!!!! Now please, go back, try to read my post again with an eye to understanding my point. It will make it easier for everyone.. I do NOT think a discussion of whether or not religion is ever appropriate is itself appropriate to a gay rights blog. You evidently do. I think the ONLY thing that most gay people pursue is equality – and I know that statistically, according to a Barna group study from 2009, about 60% of gay people consider faith “very important” in their lives ( http://www.usnews.com/news/religion/articles/2009/07/02/activists-work-to-show-gays-are-not-anti-religious ) so I find it unlikely that most of us agree with everyone becoming militant atheists. You have a right to be an atheist, but that doesn’t change the fact that others have the same right to be people of faith – whatever faith they want.

Oddly, I’m not trying, nor have I ever tried, to convert anyone (either in my days as a Christian or now) — you are. That speaks for itself. However, you have still hit EXACTLY my point. No one gives a goat’s a**, or a rat’s penis what I believe. I’ve news — no one gives a Satyr’s hairpiece or a Harpy’s eyelash about your views either. Not on this topic. Religion is a personal thing, always. It is a choice and should be respected as such.

Which does not change the idea that we (LGBTQ people) need to recognize and honor those who support us. I’m not sure why that idea is difficult for you, or for anyone. Ideological litmus tests are always disastrous for the groups applying them. 56% of RC members support gay marriage. That’s very straight forward — so what is wrong with celebrating that and respecting those people? Why would anyone want to drive those people away? Why would you, frankly? What does respect cost? Not much. What does rigidity and lack of civility do to further the cause of gay rights? As far as I can tell nothing.

So again, why?

Paul, I took away one of the tiredest of arguments by forestalling the “well you don’t believe in invisible pink unicorns do you?” Or its vaguely related appeal “You don’t believe in Zeus do you?” or its modern version “You aren’t a (fill in the name of another deity or whatever believed in by another religion) believer are you?” So often followed up by the incredibly silly “Well I just believe in one less god than you do” nonsense. I stated right up front — that — no, there isn’t anything you could come up with that I don’t accept at some level, and you believe in a LOT less things than I do. I do understand that was probably rather disconcerting — but while no one may care, it was germane to the discussion, as it forestalls, or should have forestalled, I thought, a useless exchange.

Apparently we simply look at the world from very different places. I believe and you do not — I support gay rights as a stand alone (and have argued for them since I was 14 years old, along with taking actions of all sorts including protests, condom distributions, and even, yes, interfaith vigils for gay youth), you believe in them, apparently, although perhaps I’m wrong, as part of a bundle of things. That’s your right but also mine.

I do not claim that atheism conflates with religion (as some people do) btw – but I must say, the tendency to insist that everyone else should agree does seem to be shared in common.

Regards,

Reyn

As religon is regularly brought up on gay rights blogs as an excuse for oppressing gays its reasonable to counter that religion is untrue. If no one every brought up religious condemnation of gays we’d never bring up atheism.

Ah – so your post wasn’t really in support of gay rights, it was in support of atheism — I didn’t understand that until the “uncritical support” quote here in this latter post.

That’s your business, I don’t care that you are an atheist, I have no right to care that you are an atheist — likewise you have no right to care that I am a theist. You have no right to care that others believe, and they have no right to care that you don’t. That sir is the basis of religious freedom, regardless of what those on the Right say.

We all support organizations and belief systems with which we do not fully agree. That is a simple fact. I am a Leftist, but I support the 2nd Amendment (yes, I am using the phrase to indicate that I support the right to bear arms — yes, guns are used to do terrible things – yes we need stronger controls – but I still support the 2nd amendment – and yet, I’m solidly to the Left.) Does that mean that I should either give up my support for gun rights, OR leave the Left? Not going to happen, in either case. We all practice some level of cognitive dissonance, and that’s really ok as long as we don’t harm anyone.

I don’t like the RC position on gays any better than you do. Neither do many of my straight RC friends. But the war is being won by winning people over, not by brittle protestations and nasty attacks on those whose cognitive dissonance, which I truly do believe is demonstrably universal in humanity, at some level supports us without stripping them of other things that make their experience of life better in their opinion.

I frankly think an argument about atheism belongs ELSEWHERE than a gay rights blog — but since you have brought it up in what I thought was a conversation about civility and not reducing ourselves to the level of those on the other side, let me say that while I agree with many of your political statements (regarding population, gay rights, reproductive freedom, etc) — and while in fact some of it tangentially relates to parts of my professional research (Futurism and energy) — I am FAR more irrational than you think sir. I did not go from Protestantism to Catholicism, or to Islam, or to in fact any of the Unitarian’s traditional rainbow of faiths. I went all the way out.

Before you ask, yes I believe in invisible unicorns and the fey and all the gods and goddesses that you could conjure up — I’m a polytheist by choice (not a henotheist) and while I primarily salute the goddess and her consort, I recognize all the primitive deities and pantheons that are part of earth based faith – and any others that got missed.

And as I said before, that is no more your business than your atheism is mine. Nor does it, nor can it change my take on the issue of being glad for the support we get, not critical of those who support us.

Regards,

Reyn

Paul and apparently you do not understand that the world is much bigger than us and our issues. Faith is a powerful thing and it is more difficult than you can imagine apparently to differ from your faith, say nothing about “punishing it” for a position that you agonized to reach.

I do not condemn Catholics for not being stronger, and I am honored and deeply appreciative that they are as strong as they are. 56% is a clear win. That 56% of American Catholics support gay marriage and equality IN DEFIANCE of their church hierarchies is a remarkable thing and something that everyone of us should be thankful for — rather than whining that we want more.

Regards,

Reyn

PS In the spirit of full disclosure, I was ordained in the Protestant movement many years ago, I do not make my living in any way that is connected to the church, I went on to graduate and post graduate work in an unrelated field, in which I work.

What’s with all that garbage about stealing babies and crap? Does rightful criticism of a bigoted and oppressive organization normally make you go apoplectic and incoherent?

The Catholic church preaches bigotry and promotes inequality. You may believe differently than they do but you help support the ideals they preach by your presence in their pews, your name on their membership rolls and the money you put in their coffers. If you actually want to change things tell your church to move into the 21st century or you’ll dump them. Otherwise they have no motivation to do anything.