by Wayne Besen
Earlier today, anti-gay activist Michael Brown and I squared off on the latest episode of the David Pakman Show.
Usually, I try to restrain myself, but sometimes it is important to tell it like it is. In my view, Michael Brown is a phony who tries to sound reasonable and sugarcoat his hate when speaking with mainstream media. But, the inflammatory rhetoric he uses when addressing his flock seems designed to incite a reaction. His anti-gay and transphobic language is disgraceful and shows his true colors.
The fact is, Michael Brown is truth-challenged. Well, that’s too nice. He’s a liar. For one thing, take a look at this picture (below) of his fundie “Red Shirts” marching towards Charlotte Pride. He partnered with legendary anti-gay activist Lou Engle for this event, yet still claims he “loves” homosexuals. Brown has a hell of a way of showing it.
In June 2010, TWO infiltrated an Engle revival and recorded him:
“It’s the rod of God,” bellowed Engle from the stage. “I am looking for the secret of heaven that can penetrate the homosexual agenda with the love of Jesus and the truth!”
Engle’s preaching was decidedly political and his sermon repeatedly used violent, anti-gay imagery designed to rile up the crowd of 200 intense followers.
“If we’re struggling with a homosexual, same-sex desire, LET THE BIBLE KILL YOU, rather than make it easier for you, and say well, there must be a better scriptural answer to this…Brothers and sisters, let the Bible kill you rather than you twist the scriptures!”
During our show, Brown defended Engle claiming that I distorted his role in Uganda. Here is footage of Engle in Uganda stirring up anti-gay sentiment:
Back to Charlotte Pride — Would you feel comfortable or safe surrounded by this rabble that had just been roused by Brown and Engle? I sure wouldn’t
When challenged today about his anti-gay statements on the David Pakman show, Brown repeatedly claimed that they were taken out of context. Read his comments, on his website, that he made about the LGBT community for yourself. You will find that what I quoted during the show was both accurate and in context:
STATEMENT TO THE MEDIA, JULY 25, 2009
GOD HAS A BETTER WAY RALLY, CHARLOTTE, NORTH CAROLINA
DR. MICHAEL BROWN, DIRECTOR, THE COALITION OF CONSCIENCE
www.coalitionofconscience.org; www.godhasabetterway.com
We are here today to reach out and resist – to reach out to the gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender community with compassion, as neighbors and friends and fellow-workers, and to declare God’s great love for GLBT people. And we are here to resist the gay activist agenda and to send a message to the nation.
As followers of Jesus, we first confess our own sins – our lack of ardent love for homosexual men and women, our lack of compassion for their struggles, our adding to their sense of rejection through insensitive words and deeds. We acknowledge the fact that homophobia is alive and well in some churches, and we renounce and repudiate that hateful and destructive attitude.
Our love also compels us to speak the truth, and we do not believe that all sexual orientations should be celebrated. We do not celebrate the fact that some people believe they are women trapped in men’s bodies; we do not celebrate the fact that two men or two women cannot reproduce their own unique offspring and that same-sex families guarantee that a child will never have either a mother or a father; we do not celebrate the fact that some people choose to surgically mutilate their God-given organs and must take hormones for the rest of their lives just to be at peace with themselves; we do not celebrate the sexual confusion that exists in many young people today, to the point that they can only identify themselves “as genderqueer”; we do not celebrate the pain and brokenness that exists in the lives of many of those attending Pride Charlotte today – completely apart from societal rejection – and we proclaim to our GLBT friends that God has a better way, that there is a place of wholeness and transformation to be found in Jesus. And we are here for the long-term to help them on that journey.
And because of our sense of justice and rightness, we take strong exception to the gay activist agenda. We watch its trajectory, we see where it has gone and where it is going, and we say, “It stops here in Charlotte.”
Since gay pride events have been rallying points for GLBT activism, we take our stand here today and declare:
We don’t believe that elementary school children should be taught to find their “inner-trannie” (meaning their inner transgender identity) as advocated in GLSEN’s training materials
We don’t believe that it is in the best interest of our society to seek to eradicate gender or to multiply it exponentially.
We completely reject the Los Angeles Unified School District Reference Guide when it states that Gender identity “refers to one’s understanding, interests, outlook, and feelings about whether one is female or male, or both, or neither, regardless of one’s biological sex.”
We don’t believe it is good or right for four-year-old children to have their preschool teachers read them books like One Dad, Two Dads, or to be lined up by sneaker color rather than gender so they don’t feel “boxed in.”
We don’t believe in “Queering Elementary Education,” to use the title of a well-known book.
We believe it is outrageous when an African American woman is fired from her university position of vice-president of human resources because she writes an editorial objecting to the concept that sexual orientation is equivalent to skin color.
We believe it is outrageous for the media to cover up the gay identity of a sexual predator who repeatedly raped his adopted, five-year-old African American son and offered him for sex through the internet – for fear of making homosexual couples look bad.
We believe it is outrageous for the mayor of San Francisco to welcome warmly a public fair featuring nude, sado-masochistic displays, and to do so in the name of “diversity.” And what does it say of our country today when our president, in the White House, could say “We are very proud of you” to a man who leads an organization devoted to making harder core pornography more readily available and who says that bestiality is fine as long as the animal doesn’t mind?
We don’t believe in fining a Christian photographer in New Mexico for politely declining to shoot a lesbian commitment ceremony, or punishing an Anglican bishop in England for choosing not to hire an openly gay youth worker, or for putting a lifetime ban on Christian leaders in Canada, forbidding them from expressing the biblical teaching on homosexual practice and threatening them with imprisonment.
We don’t believe in laws that could jail the owner of a Christian bookstore for choosing not to hire a cross-dresser as a receptionist.
We don’t believe in a Hate Crimes bill that is so flawed that even the ACLU is concerned that it could restrict freedom of speech.
We don’t believe it is right for major Charlotte-based companies like Bank of America and Wachovia and Duke Energy to pour tens of thousands of dollars into a radical organization like the Human Rights Campaign, an organization that has stated that supporters of male-female marriage are “right wing extremists” and that mandates that businesses must have special bathroom accommodations for employees undergoing sex-change surgery.
We are saddened by the fact that some of those who came out of the closet forty years now are now trying to put conservative Christians in the closet.
We don’t believe in tampering with the foundations of human society – male-female marriage and family – and creating a new institution previously unknown in human history.
We utterly reject the new theologies that advocate “Queering Christ” and writing “Queer Commentaries” on the Bible, and we say to Charlotte and the nation, “By God’s grace, it stops here.”
So, we say “Enough is enough” to the destructive goals of gay activism, and we say to the GLBT community, “Jesus loves you and God has a better way!”
Yeah, right Brown. You love us. It sure is reflected in your language choices.
He is liar. I was foolish enough to think that we would have an honest discussion when he asked me on his show. Instead, I was blindsided by his surprise guest who were two so-called ex-gays.
http://www.lineoffireradio.com/2012/07/18/dr-brown-dialogues-with-a-pro-gay-minister-and-then-talks-about-the-life-changing-power-of-the-gospel/
Brown has done a splendid job of driving LGBT people away from any interest in Christianity. He tells us that God hates our guts and then wonders why his message doesn’t resonate. Here’s a clue you worthless piece of s**t, you don’t win any converts by threatening them.
What a pathetic excuse for an evangelist and complete dumbass.
My apologies for appearing fidgety and looking away from the camera too much. It was only my second Skype interview and it showed in terms of presentation.
Next time I will be a bit more still. ;)
Good job Wayne.
He’s a bully plain and simple. His version of Christianity would make Jesus ill.
My partner and I went to chicago pride this year. We left feeling uphoric being around so many other people like ourselves which rarely happens in life. If it had been invaded by red shirted bullies spewing hell and damnation I’m sure our feelings would be quite different.
It’s difficult to have an argument with a liar. You did as well as you could, Wayne.
By the way, of what is Michael Brown a doctor? Is that some made up title like some ministers like to give themselves?
John, he holds a PhD in Near Eastern Languages and Literature from New York University. That degree has nothing to do with Theology, Psychology, Sociology, Law, or anything else that would might him expertise in anything he’s dealing with.
He’s a total charlatan, as are so many of his fellow gay-haters.
Make that “would or might give him expertise”
Comment by PJB863 Brown has done a splendid job of driving LGBT people away from any interest in Christianity. He tells us that God hates our guts and then wonders why his message doesn’t resonate. Here’s a clue you worthless piece of s**t, you don’t win any converts by threatening them.
What a pathetic excuse for an evangelist and complete dumbass.
when and where did Dr Brown ever say God hates your guts?
“Here’s a clue you worthless piece of s**t, you don’t win any converts by threatening them.
What a pathetic excuse for an evangelist and complete dumbass.” ——–is the love and tolerance that you want? and what threats?
Check out Brown’s Academic C.V.:
http://askdrbrown.org/about-dr-brown/academic-c-v
Considering his education, positions held, and publications, why is he now obsessed with homosexuality? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
For people such as Brown, Christian “love” is a Trojan Horse.
JP are you trying to defend this complete waste of oxygen or is Thursday troll night here on TWO?
These people only show up where they know gay people will be showing up en masse.
I have to spend a lot of time on crime statistical information, and violence in general in our nation is bad enough.
But violence against females, especially where rape and domestic violence are concerned, is epidemic.
I don’t see the Red Shirts volunteering to patrol neighborhoods, or to intervene to reduce violence against women.
They aren’t crusading to change the laws in states where a grown man can marry a minor girl.
Some of those laws have been on state’s books since the 1800′s.
No. They are always appearing where gay people are. Gay people, who aren’t anti social, nor suffering pathological issues that endanger anyone.
I consider Christians like Brown, pussies without a clue.
They aren’t confronting those anti social things that need it, too scared I’d have to guess.
TRUTH WINS OUT…HOMOSEXUALITY IS IMMORAL
All these idiots can take a long walk off a short pier. I was sick so my husband and I didn’t get to go to our local Pride, but we went last year and it was so nice to be amongst people just like us. Police presence made sure there were no incidents, and we felt safe to walk around holding hands and kiss now and then. Something we do not feel able to do in any other venue.
People like Lou Engle and Michael Brown are a fair part of the reason I am not longer Christian.
Great job Wayne.
“Love” huh? I don’t think it means what you think it means, Brown…
Steve,
It’s Homosexuality is normal, you misspelled that.
Prove it, Steve. With real evidence, nothing supernatural or superstitious.
Opposition to same gendered relationships comes in only two flavors. Religious (“Gawd said it, I believe it, that settles it”) and the Yuck factor (“ewwww! How could two wo(men) do that with each other!!!!”). I concur with Dave the Wave, Steve: demonstrate your religious beliefs are true with real, verifiable evidence. No personal anecdotes, no feelings or emotional experiences, just replicable answers to prayer or corroborated historical fact. And if Yuck factor is your underlying objection about same gender relationships, then you simply don’t have to have one! Pretty neat, huh?
I’ll be waiting for your evidence of the truth of your religion by the way, Steve. If your God is true, there should be lots of easy to see proof out there. Share on!
Wayne, I think you did very well. :)
The best I can tell, Wayne B and Michael B (well, there is one point of unity–the first letter of their last names) both believe the other, by definition, demonizes both the positions they respectively hold and their personhood.
Both also believe this demonization is not warranted.
This produced a conversation that amounted to: “Are too. Am not.”
I take both at their word that they forsake and condemn violence
Melinda, why are so obsessed with everything having two equal sides?
Melinda:
What are you talking about? How about a bit of research? And the fact you took Brown at his word just means you have not fine any research. Hiding behind a wall of ignorance is not helpful to anyone. It simply makes you wrong in your assessment and lets Brown off the hook for his statements and misdeeds.
” lets Brown off the hook for his statements and misdeeds.” W Besen
No. It says, “Thank you Mr Brown for rejecting violence.” That’s all.
It does nothing to preclude vociferous disagreement on any other point–and does nothing to preclude raising contradictions.
Letting each other off the hook as being the personification of evil frees the conversation to actually explore the issues and examine good and evil. Not letting each off the hook ends up with both parties chanting “Liar. Liar. Pants on Fire.”
“Melinda, why are so obsessed with everything having two equal sides?” rp
I’m not. I acknowledge you think I am.
Two observations (this is not a direct response–just related comments): The Golden Rule is a kind of equivalence standard. Hence, our criticisms of others easily gives rise to a natural response of, “How does the standard you are raising apply to your own behavior?”
Another common experience I think most of us have is that what we oppose often has a reflection in our own life. Sometimes we oppose the very thing that is already in us; sometimes our focused opposition shapes us in a way we become like that which we oppose.
But these are ways about thinking about issues. There are comparisons and contrasts. To identify a relationship, a similarity, a compariston, a parallel–is not to assert that two things are the same thing or the equal thing.
Melinda, why shouldn’t “Liar. Liar. Pants on Fire” be chanted if the person is a liar?
Do you think whitewashing and sugarcoating what a person says is somehow helpful to conversations?
If someone like Brown is really interested in dialogue, he would admit that he mixes militaristic language with the demonizing of a minority. Once he apologizes for this unchristian behavior we can move on to potential reconciliation. But pretending that such nasty rhetoric was not utilized to harm our families is dishonest and only let’s Brown off the hook.
It seems that you are adverse to confrontation and prefer niceties at the expense of honesty.
Mr. Besen,
I’ve been following Dr. Brown for years, have heard hundreds of his messages as well as read many of his books. I’m 100% sure that he absolutely opposes violence against any group and constantly talks about our “battle” being spiritual. Please consider that you might be completely misinterpreting Dr. Brown’s message as I believe you are. I’m hopeful by your desire to “move on to potential reconciliation”, however, you must first give Dr. Brown the benefit of the doubt. I’m confident that if you do, you will find that despite your differences, Dr. Brown does, indeed, love and respect all people.
Matt if Michael Brown loved and respected all people he wouldn’t be trying to oppress gays and deny them the same rights he has. Brown is a hater and he uses militaristic rhetoric to inflame passions against gays and then disingenuously denies he’s done so.
Matt, how much is Brown paying you to post that BS?
Matt, how is any of this taken out of context. And why, with his history, including his involvement with the murderous policies in Uganda should he be given the benefit of the doubt?
And how about you Matt? How do you show gay people respect and love? Do you support gay marriage? Do you support gays being able to adopt? Do you condemn the actions of the religous people who would help a woman kidnap a child to keep her away from a lesbian parent? Where do you stand on these issues and how do think we should reconcile these differences?
Mr Besen,
Here is a link to Dr. Brown’s show today talking about the debate:
http://www.lineoffireradio.com/2012/09/05/dr-browns-debate-with-gay-activist-wayne-besen-and-a-call-to-prayer/