“Corrective Rape” at schools in the Western Cape is a growing concern, say non-governmental organizations, some of who have noted an “alarming” level of cases.
Earlier this year, the report by the Human Rights Commission on school violence mentioned the growing crime, where heterosexual male pupils rape lesbian pupils, believing that this will make them heterosexual.
A recent study by the Triangle Project and the University of South Africa found that schools were still “unsafe places for many lesbian, gay, bi-sexual and transgendered (LGBT) learners”.
“The level of cases coming to the fore is alarming … It’s like (heterosexual boys think) if you want to be lesbian, this is your punishment.”
He said in some communities, boys thought if girls ignored their come-ons, they could force themselves on them.
“Heterosexual boys also perceive lesbian women as being competition, so they think: ‘I need to change you’,” he said.
Of course, these extreme cases do not represent the so-called “ex-gay” movement in general. Certainly, Exodus and even NARTH, I beleive, would oppose such torture. However, the notion that GLBT people must be “changed” no matter what the psychological or physical toll is in step with the West’s ‘ex-gay’ movement. The very existence of these organizations creates a sour climate where GLBT lives are demeaned and homosexual relationships are viewed as inferior. In such a hostile environment, some people will take desperate measures (exorcisms) or partake in dangerous experiments (shock therapy) to fix the “problem.”
The lesson the world must learn - from North America to South Africa - is that GLBT people should be left alone to live in peace, exactly as they were created. It is time to end the sickening abuse in all of its injurious forms that occur in the name of “corrective” or “ex-gay” therapy.
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Did you mean to link rape and the ex-gay movement in your title?
Does this mean that your hatred of my religion links you to persecution of Evangelicals around the world?
Comment by Warren Throckmorton — May 7, 2008 @ 10:41 am
[…] ‘Corrective Rape’ of Lesbians In South African Schools Shows Sickness of ‘Ex-Gay’ Movement […]
Pingback by Wayne Besen links rape and ex-gays — Warren Throckmorton — May 7, 2008 @ 11:30 am
I agree that associating the corrective rape of South African boys to Exodus Internat’l’s industry is at best, a bit of a stretch. Exodus uses psychological and political tactics to dupe people into thinking they need therapy; rape is a crime that is forced upon someone unwillingly. One could argue that the environment encouraged by Exodus is what allows rapes like that to happen. But IMHO, you can’t say “exodus caused this rape to happen” because negative attitudes towards GLBTQ’s are what is going to make crimes like that occur. Exodus and ex-gay therapy do not condone rape to bring about change. I fear attempting to draw this connection only makes you seem extreme in your own views.
Comment by Emily K — May 7, 2008 @ 12:05 pm
The link is too tenuous and the rhetoric too extreme to take this post seriously.
Comment by Scott — May 7, 2008 @ 12:46 pm
I don’t think the connection with “corrective” rape and the ex-gay movement is a stretch at all. As long as society believes gays are sinners, they will be attacked and murdered. As long as the idea is propagated that gays can be “fixed,” attempts to cure homosexuality, however bizarre or extreme, will continue to be held up or imposed upon GLBT individuals. That is why billboards advocating “change” for homosexuality are so dangerous.
Comment by howller — May 7, 2008 @ 12:54 pm
Wayne,
I am sad to say that you have become the Paul Cameron and Fred Phelps of the left.
Comment by Alan Chambers — May 7, 2008 @ 1:06 pm
Alan,
Unless you are willing to go on the record and condemn the antics of Dr. Ken Hutcherson as of late, I don’t think you have any room to be chastising anyone.
Ken is a featured Exodus speaker.
Comment by Scott — May 7, 2008 @ 4:15 pm
Wayne said:
Of course, these extreme cases do not represent the so-called “ex-gay” movement in general. Certainly, Exodus and even NARTH, I beleive, would oppose such torture. However, the notion that GLBT people must be “changed” no matter what the psychological or physical toll is in step with the West’s ‘ex-gay’ movement.
None of the U.S. ex-gay organizations has condemned this abuse, nor the abuses in recent years in Jamaica — nor the advocacy of violence by Ken Hutcherson’s “Watchmen on the Walls.” Has everyone forgotten whose conferences invite Hutcherson as featured speaker?
As we recently pointed out, Exodus Global Alliance affirms criminalization and imprisonment of gays as a method of coercion to change.
And recently a lesbian was denied prenatal care by a supposedly pro-life Christian doctor who apparently failed to connect his discrimination with social-conservative pressures upon women to have abortions. Here again, pressure to change trumped even the most basic respect for human life.
I would like very much for ex-gay activists and their allies to spend more time condemning antigay violence and less time defending violent felony hate crimes as a form of protected free speech.
Comment by Michael Airhart — May 7, 2008 @ 4:18 pm
Wayne, don’t listen to these kooks, quacks and utter wastes of flesh, like Alan Chambers, Stay-Puft (Randy), and Throck.
So what if you’re considered a “Fred Phelps” type? It’s a dirty job, but somebody’s gotta do it - and in my opinion, you’re the only gay activist who actually exposes these nuts for who they really are: charlatans and cultists.
Exodus International, NARTH and all others are nothing more than a faggoty children of the corn cult, looking to swindle confused and vulnerable gay people. Everyone knows these swishy nuts still fucks around with men!
And it’s not like we don’t have our own quack “ex-gay therapists” right here in the USA who rapes their clients as part of their “conversion therapy”. Wasn’t one of them right here in TX sent to prison for 10 years this past fall, for doing just that?
Keep up the good work, Wayne.
Comment by Scott — May 7, 2008 @ 4:51 pm
And if you don’t mind, Wayne - I’d like to pass along my YouTube comedy series, which shows how ridiculous these “ex-gays” come across:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=9BC0FB6D5A2FB1CC
Comment by Scott — May 7, 2008 @ 4:57 pm
Here’s what I said about Warren Throckmorton’s objections on his blog:
I will briefly address some key points made above.
1. I wish it did, but the Bible unfortunately does NOT uniformly condemn rape and polygamy. The Old Testament has a number of heroic polygamists and rape is justified in the context of war and collecting the spoils of war. The mixed messages of the Bible and Quran sadly continue to be exploited by social conservatives to excuse violence against women in various parts of the world.
2. Exodus affirms the consideration of intent when authorities excuse misdemeanor acts of public disruption and mayhem committed by Repent America. And Exodus tolerates the consideration of intent in hate-crime laws that punish felony violence based on victims’ race and gender. But the moment that someone suggests that felony hate crimes also be punishable based on victims’ sexual orientation, and suddenly Exodus becomes livid at the thought.
3. Exodus Global Alliance affirms criminalization and imprisonment of gay people in Barbados and presumably elsewhere around the world. Links available at TWO. Criminalization and imprisonment are viewed as Christ-like tools of state sexual coercion.
4. I appreciate Warren’s statement against Sally Kern, but he seems to be the only exgay-related activist to have done so. Exodus’ own Stephen Black proudly affirmed Kern’s hate and incitements to violence. Most other ex-gay activists have been silent or have parroted AFA, FRC and FOTF.
5. Ditto what others have said about Ken Hutcherson and Watchmen on the Walls.
6. Exodus and the Exodus Global Alliance have refused to condemn well-publicized antigay mob violence in Jamaica, and they have refused to even acknowledge, much less condemn, the killings of gay youths this year in the United States.
My point: Among ex-gay activists, there is a spectrum of silence, tolerance and affirmation of violence. Chambers in particular has refused to condemn countless acts of violence and has opposed all public-school programs that take explicit steps to stop antigay violence.
Violence is very much a tool used by proponents of sexual conversion around the world — and in the United States. Murder and rape are an extreme — but they are happening in the United States, too, and Exodus has persistently turned a deaf ear to calls for protest against such violence.
Comment by Mike Airhart — May 7, 2008 @ 6:03 pm
I should have added mention of Exodus’ endorsement of the Day Of Truth which OPPOSES antibullying programs in schools.
Comment by Mike Airhart — May 7, 2008 @ 6:14 pm
According to Box Turtle Bulletin, Peter LaBarbera — longtime antigay activist, pro-exgay advocate — is now joining with KKK leader David Duke and the racist Rev. Ted Pike in defense of antigay violence.
We know from misdirected e-mails that LaBarbera corresponds with Throckmorton from time to time. Where is Throckmorton’s outrage?
Comment by Michael Airhart — May 7, 2008 @ 7:30 pm
I hardly think it a stretch to draw parallels between those who seek to “cure” homosexuals through emotional violence and torture and those who seek to do so by means of physical violence and torture. What about the “researchers” who deliver electrical shocks to the genitalia of gay men while showing them pictures of gay sex? Is that really so very different from raping lesbians in the attempt to effect a “cure?”
What about “exorcists” who violently bind, beat, humiliate and sometimes even kill their victims, excuse me, “clients” in order to “rid” them of their “gay-demon?”
Sure, these are all extremes. Does that mean they are not a part of “Ex-gay Therapy” at large?
Rape of lesbians is by no means a new phenomenon. One of the first things I remember hearing as a young lesbian first coming out is the comment, “All she needs is a good f—.” There are so very many misguided and foolish ideas about what homosexuality is, where it originates, and whether or how it can be changed.
I’d say that if “Ex-gay Therapists” object to being associated with rapists, exorcists, torturers, murderers and the plethora of others who have victimized gays and lesbians throughout the millenia, then they’d better start condemning the *victimizers* long and loudly, rather than wasting their breath on Wayne and others like him who simply point up fallacies of their position. When I hear more condemnation against Wayne for his position piece than I hear against the hideous men commiting these shameful crimes against women, it tends to raise doubt in my mind about the sincerity of Throckmorton, Chambers and the other respondents.
Comment by Lorian — May 7, 2008 @ 8:36 pm
Personally, I think this is too far of a stretch. While I understand that this is but an extreme example of how far efforts can go to “cure” homosexuality in a society that fears and loathes it, ex-gay ministries are right to draw a distinction. An excuse for aggressive sexual assualt it quite different from a voluntary religion-based program, no matter how ineffective or ill conceived.
Comment by Timothy Kincaid — May 7, 2008 @ 9:15 pm
I can only laugh this concerted effort to attack my well-reasoned position on the tie between what happens in South Africa and the local ex-gay fraud. Exodus and their ilk, also don’t like to take responsibility for hate crimes and school bullying – yet they oppose hate crime legislation and oppose the Day of Silence. Sorry, but your actions have created a climate where such violence can and does occur. How about earning your conservative credentials by practicing personal responsibility?
I know this must be difficult to hear. But, the indirect actions and violent words by America’s ex-gay organizations give license to those who wish to justify assaults and intimidation against homosexuals. Exodus likes to disingenuously claim it loves gay people. Yet, Exodus has never met an anti-gay law it has not campaigned for (including sodomy laws) and has done everything possible to empower bullies in public schools. Your record is shameless and you are responsible for much pain, violence and suffering.
Indeed, the primary job of Randy Thomas and Alan Chambers is to get up in the morning and make life as difficult as possible for GLBT people. You call us “sexually broken” and “perverse.” Alan Chambers brazenly scares gay men by falsely stating that once they go bald they will never find love. Could one get more lowball and immoral than to peddle such lies?
Undoubtedly, this patently dishonest and sleazy hate rhetoric makes some people feel shitty about their lives. Those affected may contemplate suicide, drink themselves into stupors or numb the pain with drugs. Others, lacking self-worth, kill themselves with unsafe sex.
Like a sick joke, once Chambers and Warren “I’ll cure you with Prozac” Throckmorton demolishes these poor individuals, they turn around and cynically offer to help them. What a load of garbage and utter hypocrisy. The entire so-called ex-gay industry stinks to the core and needs to be shut down. It is not a movement, but a slick marketing campaign rife with consumer fraud and it is literally killing people.
I know the truth stings – but I’ll be more polite when you stop decimating vulnerable people – particularly gay youth. There are those of us who are not going to allow you to push around gay people – and that is what really upsets you. The days of you demeaning our lives for political gain without avid resistance have ended - forever. Deal with it and move on.
I find it interesting that Chambers took his typical cheap shot (that’s the only way he fights) by comparing me to Fred Phelps. This is a man who protests funerals and says horrible things about homosexuals. Much like, say, Alan Chambers. Here are a few of Chambers’ “loving” quotes:
“I believe the gay community is a good group of people but with groups like NAMBLA [a pedophile group] riding on their coattails.”
“But as a property owner of Orlando, I wouldn’t rent to someone who is gay any more than I would rent to a person who is a practicing witch.”
“One of the many evils this world has to offer is the sin of homosexuality. Satan, the enemy is using people to further his agenda to destroy the Kingdom of God and as many souls as he can.”
So, Chambers ties GLBT people to child molesters who are in bed with Satan and then has the nerve to compare me to Phelps? He says these horrible things that dehumanize and then whines when he is linked to what happens in South Africa and elsewhere? Alan, it is time you grow up and own the swath of destruction that you have left in the lives of many people across the globe. (It’s called Exodus International, after all)
Likewise, Chambers’ bizarre comparison of me to the disgraced researcher Paul Cameron has backfired. I have been in the advocacy business for nearly twenty years. In two decades, I have cited dozens of researchers and written two books. Not once has a researcher chided me for distorting his or her research.
However, Chambers makes his living by shilling for Focus on the Family’s James Dobson. Last week, Gary Remafedi, M.D., M.P.H., a professor of pediatrics at the University of Minnesota, asked Focus on the Family’s leader James Dobson to stop misrepresenting his findings from his key 1992 study. This is at least the seventh acclaimed researcher in two years to accuse Dobson (Chamber’s effective boss) of twisting their work.
Clearly, if one is to be compared to the serial research distorting Cameron, it is Dobson, not me. Yet, Chambers has never criticized King James, nor has he pledged not to take Focus on the Family’s filthy money. Once again, his flimsy argument falls apart and it is clearly Chambers and his intimate associates whose records resemble Paul Cameron’s.
Finally, it is obvious that Throckmorton is bitter because his APA quack forum was cancelled. How amusing that he portrays me as radical, when his entire career has been dedicated to gay bashing. (Remember the movie, “I Do Exist”) Most notably, his denial of the harm caused by ex-gay therapy is disgraceful and unethical. Until he admits that his line of work is deadly and damaging, he will continue to be dismissed as an unserious religious partisan with a right wing agenda. How people don’t see through his charade is bewildering.
His accusation that I hate his religion is a paranoid delusion. To tell you the truth, I have no idea what his denomination actually is. I really don’t care what deity he prays to. However, I am concerned about the damage he is doing to GLBT people in the name of this deity.
For example, Mr. Throckmorton’s new therapy model “Shame Induced Trauma” (SIT) is absurd. As a result of his biases, he continues to steer gay people into lonely lives of celibacy or doomed marriages because he is too arrogant and intellectually bankrupt to flat out admit that his religion is dead wrong on the issue of homosexuality. Time and again, Throckmorton has chosen dogmatic religion over demonstrated reason, faith over facts and sectarian loyalty over logic. This is why he has not a shard of respect in the established scientific community and is not taken seriously by anyone who matters. (The opinions of the Warren’s lost blog sycophants and Peter LaBarbera notwithstanding)
The bottom line is that the words of Alan Chambers, Randy Thomas and Warren Throckmorton damage people at home – and as a result of the Internet - reverberate across the globe. To try to spin this and portray me as extreme for pointing out this obvious fact is not going to work. If you want this fight – let’s have it. We can compare your work, words and record to mine any day of the week. I welcome this challenge.
Each morning, I wake to help people, while you guys wake up to shatter marriages and ruin lives. This is why I am considered mainstream, while you three are viewed as extreme.
Comment by Wayne Besen — May 7, 2008 @ 10:35 pm
This is not just an anti-gay/lesbian issue, but an issue of failing humanity. What happened to the basic tenent of all faiths which simply states, “DO NO HARM!”
When did we give up our humanity in order to perpetuate the hatred of limited groups in the name of God, Allah, or whatever in order to justify torture, rape, maiming, and killing of others because they were different?
By failing to live by the basic design of God - love each other, do no harm and grow spiritually - most of these folks are going to be in for a large surprise when St. Peter isn’t there to greet them at the Holy Gates.
Look to your own houses and ensure that they are in order before you start trying to “fix” someone elses. If done correctly, that should take you this entire lifetime.
Angie M. Tarighi
CEO & Founder
Women’s Self-Defense Institute
http://www.self-defense-mind-body-spirit.com
Comment by Angie M. Tarighi — May 7, 2008 @ 10:58 pm
Dear Wayne,
I think the link can be made, though I think it might be a bit of an overstatement - and I doubt any ex-gay organization in the states would condone rape. But South Africa has a long history of abusing gays and lesbians . . . from what I understand, the GLBT community has almost as hard a time there as here, maybe harder (I think I read somewhere that the South African government used to use extremely cruel aversion therapy techniques on its glbt citizens).
I don’t mean to disrespect Dr. Throckmorton, but the evangelical attitude towards rape has always been problematic. At Grove City (where I attended and where Dr. Throckmorton teaches), I once got in a conversation with one of the dear students there. He told me the proper punishment for rapists was to rape the rapists with government-employed rapists (Yea, I know, nuts). Also at Grove City, I couldn’t sit through a Movie scene that portrayed pornographic pictures of rape because it was too intense for me. My teacher (female) made fun of me for leaving, saying I ridiculously overreacted to a scene of “mild abuse”. She later mentioned my leaving class during that scene as one reason why she thought I should be kicked out of school. She also justified Lewis Caroll’s pedaristic pictures, saying they were taken in total innocence.
I have personally encountered evangelical pastors who cover up rape. In fact, when my dad and I reported a rape to a local pastor, he did nothing about it. My bible teacher in high school told me that “Raped women don’t have the right to fight back. They should turn the other cheek.” The whole male class, except for me, agreed with him.
I’m not saying any of this is represenative of Dr. Throckmorton or of evangelicals in general (though it may be represenative of places like Grove City). But biblical feminists have long held that the church has a serious problem addressing rape, acknowledging it. Indeed, the church tends to cover it up. To not admit this merely exacerbates the gender inequity that already plagues evangelicalism.
Comment by John Weaver — May 8, 2008 @ 2:54 am
Alan Chambers said…
“Wayne,
I am sad to say that you have become the Paul Cameron and Fred Phelps of the left.”
–
Not that I agree with your assessment Alan, but as president of Exodus International, you already approve of the sale of “My Genes Made Me Do It.” A book with five separate references to Paul Cameron.
So why would you criticize someone for being like Paul Cameron, when it is clear that you already approve of Paul Cameron?
Comment by Emproph — May 8, 2008 @ 3:53 am
While no one can be blamed for these specific rapes other than the teenage boys in South Africa who engaged in these crimes, one cannot neglect the anti-gay climate that exodus projects with its false and demeaning “change is possible” claims.
If more subtle approaches don’t work, why not rape these lesbian bitches to turn them toward heterosexual ways? As long as exodus refuses to accept lesbian and gay people as they are, we can expect this and other types of violence against lesbians and gays to continue.
Comment by Bill Ware — May 8, 2008 @ 8:55 am
Sincerely but sarcastically speaking,
To be fair though, it is important to make the distinction between physical rape and psychological / spiritual rape…
Comment by Emproph — May 8, 2008 @ 9:57 am
I’m not going to agree that Exodus condones rape of lesbians to change their orientation. Even the most vocal mainstream evangelical Christians who zealously try to convert Jews (thus eradicating Judaism theologically) won’t deny the Holocaust. And two humans of the same sex who want to marry each other don’t condone marriage between a man and his dog. There is a line.
Comment by Emily K — May 8, 2008 @ 5:49 pm
Emily:
I think we can all agree that Exodus does not condone rape. However, my point is that when they go to Africa to convince people that homosexuals can and should change, it creates a climate that diminishes the lives of GLBT people. Once we are dehumanized, it makes it easier for evil people to justify their discrimination or even violence.
Is Exodus responsible for the attacks? Clearly not. Do they make Africans disrespect gay people and their relationships? I beleive they do.
Once people are seen as inferior or broken, it is only a matter of time before troubled individuals come up with twisted ways to “fix” them. Exodus poisons the well for GLBT people worldwide. They need to take responsibility for their hateful actions.
I’m simply stating what most GLBT people believe. The whole business of me directly tying Exodus to these rapes is false. It is an ugly smear campaign to twist my words - which Throckmorton and Chambers have a lot of practice at doing. Unfortunately- like usual - the facts don’t fit their phony accusations.
Now that Throckmorton is bitter about his little quack panel getting nixed, I expect more below the belt cheap shots in the future.
Comment by Wayne Besen — May 8, 2008 @ 6:02 pm
If they can’t win a reasoned debate, the gay movement just makes stuff up. The reason is that the gay movement and also feminism believes that truth is constructed. There is no real truth but that which we construct or make up. Dialog becomes useless as does connecting “one’s own truth” with reality.
Keep up these posts Wayne. You’re truth may or may not win, but it sure is amusing.
Comment by Tim Horton — May 8, 2008 @ 11:27 pm
Actually, Tim, it is the fundamentalists that often construct truth. They pick and choose Bible verses that fit their prejudices and then fashion God in their own bigoted image.
The gay movement, on the other hand, uses reason, science, facts and logic. That is why we are winning and on the right side of history. Time to throw in the towel, your side has already lost. My job, really,is just mopping up the confetti at the victory party.
Comment by Wayne Besen — May 9, 2008 @ 12:46 am
Ok, Wayne, I will agree with you on the point that Exodus “poisons the well.” I don’t know that much about their international movement, especially in underdeveloped nations (although SA is quite developed), so I don’t know what their tactics are over there. That is, I can’t say for certainty that I know they put up billboards, take out newspaper ads, and lobby the way they do here.
Comment by Emily K — May 9, 2008 @ 9:52 am
Hi Wayne. Just wanted to mention that a rapist, regardless of environment or influence, is going to find whatever excuse he or she can to legitimize the crime. It does not follow, logically, that the excuse then spoken is in any way true. A rapist has already proven himself devoid of any moral sense by raping someone, what’s a little lie then?
A rapist violates another human being for his own evil gratification… not to “help” the other person. He may think he’s helping, which proves that not only is he devoid of moral sense, he’s incapable of accepting his lack of humanity and has to lie to himself.
This kind of behavior is especially true of the evil predators that lurk about in Africa. And I’m not saying that Africa is an evil place, its a beautiful place with a majority of amazingly sweet and hospitable people… but the evil men we hear about in the news and see in the movies, they blame their evil on western ideals all the time!
Have you heard of the Lord’s Resistance Army? They blame their enslavement of children, their torture and wicked desecration of the minds of children, on God. They teach the children to kill in the name of God, for God. They teach the young boys to rape the young girls, saying that it glorifies God.
The fact that murderers and brutes abuse the name of God in order to abuse children doesn’t say anything about God, it shows these men to be evil. Do you understand my point?
You don’t like the ex-gay movement, I get that. But these rapes have nothing to do with ex-gay or gay or really anything American or not. The people perpetrating the crimes are wicked and want to violate someone, so they do. If they didn’t use some kind of conversion story as a lie, they’d use some political or racial or religious story.
I don’t think you are being quite logical, though I have no doubt all the pieces fit in your own mind. I would caution you, warn you that your own prejudices are blinding you, but I doubt you would listen to me. I am a Christian after all.
Comment by Sean B — May 9, 2008 @ 10:50 am
I hope the people at Exodus International do not condone rape as a method of changing someone’s sexual orientation. However, they do seem to believe it works!
I have a read a number of accounts from people in the “ex-gay” movement who say they became gay as a result of rape or sexual abuse. I hope we would all condem any coersive non-consensual acts. Rape is a terrible crime whether hetrosexual or homosexual. However, some of these people also believe it can change your sexual orientation.
How big of a step is it to say “I was raped and it made me gay” to say “I’ll rape her to make her straight.” After all, you’re doing her a favour, right?
While ever respected leaders are teaching that sexuality can be changed with the right method, others will decide that it’s their job to try.
I am a Christian and I do believe God can do anything. He could make a balck person white, if he chose to answer their prayer. How many black people must have prayed that, in the midst of the worst discrimination or when forbidden to marry the one they loved, or receive the education they deserved? The fault was not with someone’s skin colour, the fault was with society. Likewise many GLBT Christians long to change and go through all sorts of therapy to fit in with their society. I believe it is the church and society who have the sin that needs repenting of and I pray that God will make that change - I believe he is beginning to answer that prayer.
Sexual orientation - though sometimes fluid - can not be made to change! Thank God the Church and society can!
Comment by Iain from England — May 9, 2008 @ 10:56 am
[…] and other discredited zealots have desperately latched onto a well-reasoned post that I wrote on this blog. The ex-gay industry has tried - and failed - to smear me by falsely claiming that I tied rapes in […]
Pingback by Truth Wins Out - Bitter Throckmorton Continues ‘Sour Grapes Media Tour’ By Trashing TWO in Fringe Right Wing Media — May 9, 2008 @ 11:13 am
Sean B. says, “I doubt you would listen to me. I am a Christian after all.”
This is a typical right wing smear. I listen to Christians every day. I just won’t put up with gay bashing or attacks on science in the name of right wing religion. Sean, please get your facts straight. It is your own biases I would be concerned about.
Comment by Wayne Besen — May 9, 2008 @ 12:12 pm
Timothy Kinkaid writes:
“An excuse for aggressive sexual assualt it quite different from a voluntary religion-based program, no matter how ineffective or ill conceived.”
Perhaps this is true, however, I don’t believe that this is the point that Wayne made. Wayne’s point is that the anti-gay industry (which is often nurtured in the US by the religious right) creates a climate where anti-gay bigotry can thrive. A climate of anti-gay bigotry is only a short step from anti-gay violence.
Frankly, I am tired of apologists for religion on both the left and the right. Religion is never a sufficient basis for any psychological or medical treatment.
If religion cannot even substantiate the efficiacy of intercessionarly prayer, then how in the world are we to take it seriously as a basis for any treatment?
Comment by Martin — May 9, 2008 @ 1:09 pm
I actually am frightened somewhat by folks who use the climate argument, since with this belief they must at some point target core beliefs which arise from religion. To shut down the sharing of these beliefs, they must destroy these communities. Do you really think Roman Catholics are going to change their doctrine of sexuality?
Abuse of Christian communities is already happening in Canada where Christians are unable to say that homosexual practices are not good for the persons or society. We also see this phenomenon happening to a greater extent in the UK. While some would say, “right on” to getting rid of religion, I anticipate a backlash whereby religious folks eventually will really align themselves with fascist groups, in order to freely practice their religion. I am thinking of what happened in Franco’s Spain, where the Church aligned itself in order to stop the murder of priests and nuns by socialists.
The solution is a very liberal respect for freedom of speech, even if it is offensive speech. Answer this supposed wrong speech with your own speech, rather than resorting to spurious “climate” arguments.
Hey, were Christians, we’re here. Get over it. Same for y’all.
Comment by Tim Horton — May 9, 2008 @ 1:38 pm
To The Not-So-Reverend & Not-At-All-Revered Worn Throckmorton: What’s the difference between a religion and a superstition???
Religion is the one YOU believe. And so, anyone who disagrees with you hates your “religion??” What hogwash.
WHY DON’T YOU SHUT UP AND MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS. You have no right before ANY god to assume that you’ve been “inspired” to challenge or to change how people live. That voice of “God” in your head…well, you’re half right. It’s a voice in your head, but NOWHERE ELSE.
It’s doubtful that Evangelicals are being persecuted around the world, but if there is “persecution,” it’s only in places where the locals have seen the results of the First Evangelicals–the Jesuits with their “message of God’s love,” accompanied by the Conquistadors with the weapons to back that message with “God’s Wrath.”
Your hatred of gays is more than likely a thinly disguised fear of your own desires. Seems to be common among many Evangelicals these days. Do we need to cite names??? Do you hang out in men’s rooms??
Comment by Moe — May 9, 2008 @ 3:17 pm
Exodus and its global alliance set the climate by refusing to acknowledge antigay violence and by attempting to silence antiviolence advocates — in the United States through harassment of the Day of Silence, and abroad through criminalization and imprisonment of gay people.
Free speech is a great idea when the playing field is level. But speech is restricted in schools — where the emphasis should be on learning, not endless debates and proselytization — and in Caribbean and African nations, speech is often a privilege limited to undemocratic and antigay authorities.
Comment by Michael Airhart — May 9, 2008 @ 3:19 pm
Tim Horton writes:
“To shut down the sharing of these beliefs, they must destroy these communities. Do you really think Roman Catholics are going to change their doctrine of sexuality?”
Nonsense. No one is trying to shut down anyone’s community. Using this logic, one would not have challenged religiously motivated racism on the basis that it might trample someone’s interpretation of scripture. And yes - don’t bother telling me that many of the people who battled racism also found inspiration in religion - I know that. It in no way excuses the racists who used the bible as a tool of oppression.
Comment by Martin — May 9, 2008 @ 3:51 pm
Tim Horton says…
“I actually am frightened somewhat by folks who use the climate argument, since with this belief they must at some point target core beliefs which arise from religion.”
But we’re only talking about those “core beliefs” that foster a climate of violence. Why would you have a problem with this?
–
“To shut down the sharing of these beliefs, they must destroy these communities. ”
Again, we’re only talking about those communities who willingly foster hatred and violence. Again still, why would you have a problem with this?
–
Do you really think Roman Catholics are going to change their doctrine of sexuality?
It’s not about “changing” any doctrine of sexuality, the issue is about exposing those who hypocritically and unfairly depict the human-sexuality of some people, as innately harmful and/or malicious.
–
“Abuse of Christian communities is already happening in Canada where Christians are unable to say that homosexual practices are not good for the persons or society.”
And do you consider pro-gay Christians to be actual Christians?
How about gay Christians?
If not, why do you feel you are in a position to speak for them?
–
“We also see this phenomenon happening to a greater extent in the UK. While some would say, “right on” to getting rid of religion, I anticipate a backlash whereby religious folks eventually will really align themselves with fascist groups, in order to freely practice their religion.”
As well they should, fascist groups are their home. But you’re not speaking about religious folk per se, you’re speaking about a supremacism that is being claimed as religion, which isn’t fair — as any criminal can claim their behavior to be religious — or the practice of their harmful behavior to be their religion.
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“The solution is a very liberal respect for freedom of speech, even if it is offensive speech. Answer this supposed wrong speech with your own speech, rather than resorting to “climate” arguments.”
Well if climate change is so spurious, Tim, what could possibly be easier for you to refute?
Next time Christians like you say that your “deeply held moral beliefs” are based on the genocide of Leviticus 20:13, just take that extra step to let people know that the advocacy of murder in the name of God has no effect, climate-wise, or what-so-ever.
Cinchy.
–
“Hey, were Christians, we’re here. Get over it. Same for y’all.”
NOT THE SAME AT ALL. You speak for supremacists who claim to hold the Golden Rule as the standard.
Atheists who actually practice the Golden Rule are more Christian in nature than Christians who advocate genocide in the name of the Golden Rule.
Comment by Emproph — May 10, 2008 @ 11:23 am
And let’s not forget Tim Horton’s home page: http://www.lifesite.ca/
Comment by Emproph — May 10, 2008 @ 11:48 am
Wayne, I continue to thank God that you have the courage and strength to speak the truth forcefully and without apology. Your initial article was well written and fair. You verbalized the caution of assuming Exodus would condone the atrocity of rape. I agree wholeheartedly with everything you are saying.
It is the climate of intolerance that Exodus fosters which may allow unstable people to justify their immoral actions. When there is still ambiguity about the value of an entire class of people, it leaves room in the conscience for otherwise unspeakable acts of violence.
When people in perceived positions of moral authority allow for discrimination and less than equal status for LGBT people, there is frequently, a blind and unquestioned acceptance by the flock. In their very well written and highly acclaimed book “Mistakes Were Made, But Not by Me” Carol Tavris and Elliot Arnson articulately document how and why this phenomenon occurs.
If at any moment, the perceived moral guides of our time called for radical actions (quarantining or registering GLBT people for example), there is a very high probability multitudes of otherwise decent human beings would follow blindly. If people we defer to (the President, the Pope, James Dobson) tell us to be alarmed and to take action, most of us will.
Christian theologian and prolific author C.S. Lewis was sounding this alarm decades ago. I will end my two cents worth with the following quote:
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”
- C. S. Lewis (1898-1963)
Alan Chambers, James Dobson, and Walter Throckmorton: “Please stop trying to love me and help me. I would prefer your honest hatred to your obsessive love, it’s killing me.” Jeffry Ford, MA, LP http://www.exexgay.com
Comment by Jeffry Ford, MA, LMFT, LP — May 11, 2008 @ 2:13 pm
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