Some people decide, for a variety of reasons, that they are morally opposed to expressing their own personal same-sex orientation. However, they refrain from the lie that anyone can “change” their sexual orientation.
In fact, some of these people acknowledge that no significant change of sexual orientation occurs in most (if any) so-called ex-gays.
Depending upon the context, a lifetime of celibacy may be depressing, self-defeating, a bit selfish, or even unloving. Do we at Truth Wins Out strongly encourage it? Not especially. But what people choose to do (or not do) with themselves is their business.
However, when celibate gay people present the public with celibacy as an honest alternative to the fraudulent healings of the ex-gay movement, some politically correct ex-gays are bound to retaliate.
Lately, at least one politically correct ex-gay activist — we are told — has given the Canadian ex-gay group New Directions a piece of his mind. Ex-gay opposition to honest talk about celibacy goes something like this:
Everyone is on a journey towards heterosexuality, but some people only go a little way down that road.
What rubbish. This antithesis of sexual honesty, frequently peddled by the leadership of Exodus International, honors the sex-idol of “heterosexuality” — the heterosexual sex act and the heterosexual label — and not God.
“A journey toward heterosexuality” is the catch phrase of ex-gay activists who promote years of wandering on circular roads to nowhere. Despite the claim to be a former homosexual, no professional ex-gay has demonstrated significant attraction to the opposite gender. Their sexual orientation has not been changed — not by God, not by James Dobson, and not by magic-wand therapies that obsess over fictitious “possessive mothers,” “distant fathers,” non-existent abusive relatives, fake exorcisms, or ex-gay doctor-patient “cuddle” sessions.
So let’s scrap the “journey” hogwash. I think it would be more honest of these professional ex-gays if they simply told celibate gay men:
You are inferior to us, and exiled to the back of the church, unless you prove your sexual prowess through weekly public profession of orgasms with people of the opposite sex.
Celibate Christian College Jay is not impressed that an ex-gay activist would denigrate celibacy while idolizing “hope” in an end-goal of sex:
I got a little mad when I first read that, but then it saddened me. It saddened me to know that there are people who would sell out Christ for something as fleeting as human sexuality.
Jay may be saddened, but he cannot be very surprised.
Exodus International is led by a president who publicly belittles celibacy. Exodus does not promote ostensibly Christian values such as truth, fellowship, or love; Exodus demands something else: Sexual dishonesty, alienation from people who are sexually honest, and various stunts to blackmail God into effecting inspecific “change.”
Of the two ex-gay factions — the celibates, and those like Chambers who idolize the sexual expression of “masculinity” — which one is more likely to enjoy huge donations, public recognition, and applause from a right-wing church and right-wing culture that idolize expressions of male authority?
Is either faction capable of promoting individual freedom, charity, modesty, and respect for religious and sexual minorities — or do both factions’ obsessions with self-denial, sex, and political access pre-empt compassion, generosity, and affirmation toward others?
Tags: celibacy, ex-gay, heterosexualityRelated posts
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I was under the impression that celibacy, even within marriage, is admired and revered by the Christian Church.
Comment by Emily K — August 5, 2008 @ 11:09 pm
“Exodus International is led by a president who publicly belittles celibacy.”
But isn’t that Randy Thomas’s schtick? Something along the lines of “I’m celibate, therefore, I’m heterosexual”?
Of course I don’t believe he is, with him living practically nextdoor to the infamous Parliament House in Orlando.
Comment by Scott — August 6, 2008 @ 10:36 am
Celibacy seems to have fallen upon hard times — I don’t know of any conservative evangelicals that have ever shown much respect for it. Among Catholics, there has been great pressure since the mid-20th century to make celibacy optional for priests.
The antigay Catholic group Courage International promotes chastity, but the organization has become distracted by its leadership’s antigay polemics, misleading language, sexual dishonesty, and affirmation of ex-gay therapy.
Comment by Michael Airhart — August 6, 2008 @ 10:36 am
Mike - you ask, “Is either faction capable of promoting individual freedom, charity, modesty, and respect for religious and sexual minorities — or do both factions’ obsessions with self-denial, sex, and political access pre-empt compassion, generosity, and affirmation toward others?”
It is our intent, despite any disagreements on sexual ethics or any other point of dispute, to treat all people with the love and respect that is consistent with the good news of Jesus Christ. In Him we meet a God who loves so lavishly that he offers humanity free will rather than create an army of robots to love him.
While offering support and encouragement for those same-gender attracted people choosing to live a single life that is consistent with their faith and values, we also seek to be accepting of those who choose to live their lives differently. (Note: I am not saying that people choose to experience same-gender attraction - I am simply referring to the choices people make about the expression of that same-gender attraction.) It is possible to be accepting and respectful of people without sharing the same values or perspectives. Where the rubber hits the road, in real relationships not just the debate of rhetoric, I personally seek to embody the generousity and compassion of which you speak regardless of the agreements or disagreements I might have with that person. To me, that is simply showing up in people’s lives and being “Jesus with skin on”. We see in the ministry of Jesus a persistent draw to hang out with exactly those people who made the legalistic religious leaders of his day very nervous … I hope to do the same in my own friendships and relationships.
Comment by wendy — August 6, 2008 @ 12:36 pm
Wendy:
Would you go to a gay friend’s wedding and bring presents? Or would you snub the gay wedding?
Comment by Wayne Besen — August 6, 2008 @ 3:12 pm
Wayne,
I would go to a close friend’s gay wedding and yup, I’d bring a gift. I know that all of my close friends know what I believe about sexual ethics and would not assume my beliefs had changed but that my attendance was a sign of my love and friendship. I’m sure I would get some serious flack for this decision - but at the end of the day, I believe loving people is what God asks of me.
Comment by wendy — August 6, 2008 @ 8:39 pm
[…] Wendy Gritter of New Direction for her comment yesterday at Truth Wins Out yesterday, in which Gritter said: I would go to a close friend’s gay wedding and yup, I’d bring a gift. I know that all of my […]
Pingback by Truth Wins Out - Meanness Exemplified: P.C. Ex-Gay Retaliation against Kind Gestures — August 7, 2008 @ 12:23 pm
Thanks for your answer Wendy. I wish you would replace Alan Chambers as head of Exodus. :)
Comment by Wayne Besen — August 7, 2008 @ 3:08 pm
Wayne
I am a Christian that has been tring very hard to understand gay people and from what I know so far by searching scriptures and praying; that God gave them up to a debased mind because they didnt repent.Like all sin God gives us the option to repent.
If gays were a part of his plan then why would he want them to repent?
For those that turn to God putting the cart before the horse will have to work a lot harder to get where their going.They have to want to love and want a personal relationship with God.
God does not give us an option and then not give us a way out.
I am not tring to be mean or crass in anything Im saying.The debased mind they are given up to is why they are hard to reach but its up to them to be free from it.
I find that the gay spirit is one of the hardest to understand.It has the loudest voice with anger and hate, only to mention a few.
I want to love them as God loves them.I want to reach them but it seems like a snare for me because they want to attack anything that is truth.
They have to make a choice just like anyone else that is cought up in sin.They gave into the temptation of sin,they can also undo it but not without putting God first.
I could see Jesus showing up at a gay wedding and have a gift but it wouldnt be wrapped in paper.It would be the gift of truth and he would be treated as a gay basher for it,nor would it be considered an act of love.
Roy
Comment by Roy — August 13, 2008 @ 8:12 am
Roy, your message is off-topic and unsubstantiated — comments must be related to the topic and any claims (both factual claims and Biblical claims) must be substantiated.
Your message is also hypocritical — you have provided no truth. You have only provided a smug claim that you know the Bible when obviously you do not. According to your own standards, you are sinning — and you are impenitent.
There is no “gay spirit,” and you cannot claim to offer truth when you offer no facts.
Comment by Michael Airhart — August 13, 2008 @ 9:19 am
Roy, gay people ARE indeed angry, but you simply shrug off this phenomenon as some inherent personality flaw instead of exploring why that is indeed the case.
I suggest you read the excellent THE VELVET RAGE by Dr. Alan Downs.
That is, if you truly care about understanding gay people (in this case, gay men), and not clinging to your current misinformation.
Comment by Peter — August 13, 2008 @ 3:48 pm
Some politically active gay people are angry, most are simply demanding equality and respect.
But perhaps people should become a bit angrier, considering the self-righteous ignorance of people who presume to speak for God and Christianity.
Comment by Michael Airhart — August 13, 2008 @ 4:44 pm
Excuse me that my comment is in the wrong section or off topic.I read something somewhere on this site and obviously posted it in the wrong place.None the less I will respond to the feed back that I got.
Romans:1:18-32,a debased mind.
The word “seek” or “seeking” is mentioned 57 times in the bible.Do you want every verse?
I dont just know God by the bible,I know him by how he has worked in my life and others that I know.
Anyone that puts anything before God, meaning themselves can be in for a lot of trials and tribulations.
And how am I sinning?I intend no offense nor am I judging anyone.Where did you see hypocrit in anything I said?It seems that you are off on your judgement.
What seems obvious is that you know nothing about the bible or God or you would know about sin and spirits and so on but I already know that you have been offended by truth by someone that knows God on a personal level but not as well as I want to.
Do you think that the bible says nothing about spirits?
What is Satan? he is spirit.What did Jesus send us?”The Holy Spirit”
I dont claim to come close to having all of the answers
but I know right from wrong and temptations and that we all struggle with them of some sort.All sin is sin and can be overcome.Gay people need to just shut up and start seeking God and get over it.This is truth regardless of what you think.They have no right to be angry at anyone but themselves.Its all just one big pity party their having.
Well once again I have fell into a snare by commenting on this site.
Have a good day
Roy
Comment by Roy — August 13, 2008 @ 7:28 pm
Guys, don’t pay attention to this Roy nutball. He’s worse than a kid with ADHD, and is looking for nothing more than attention. Joe Brummer recently dedicated a couple posts about this guy, and I wouldn’t waste another second on him:
http://joebrummer.com/WordPress/?p=1025
http://joebrummer.com/WordPress/?p=1026
Comment by Scott — August 14, 2008 @ 5:26 am
Roy,
I truly feel sorry for you and people like you. You are so hateful towards gay people and the more I read posts from someone like you that claims to be a Christian, I am even more surprised that I still have any faith at all in Jesus Christ. It’s no wonder so many people have left Christianity. Especially the conservative evangelical/fundamentalist variety. Its all about doom and gloom. Nothing positive. Everything is wrong. Nothing is right. Evil spirits rather than personal responsibility. But thank God I have risen above all that garbage you guys peddle. Your brand of Christianity is about control of others and you demand that your biblical worldview be followed regardless. If not, you will claim to those that don’t follow your beliefs that they are the enemy of Christ because you cannot stand the fact that you can be wrong. This is self-righteous arrogance. Typical of your brand of Christianity and one that I cannot stomach.
One of the greatest things about God is he knows our hearts. Not man. God. And it does not matter what the fundamentalists/evangelicals, conservative, Christians say about me. God knows my heart and that is all that matters!
God Bless!
-Ken
Comment by Ken — August 15, 2008 @ 5:17 am
Ken
Hey,go for it.At least you believe in Jesus and havent gave up on him.
One of the best things someone said to me when I was lost but still seeking God and cought up in self pity and it was me me me all the time, he said “Roy shut up and get over it”.That seemed harsh at first but it was said in love and for my own good.It set me in a new direction and I still thank this friend and good Christian for saying that to me.I could have got offended and learned nothing from it.
Its not hateful that I have in my heart as you think for gays.The sin definitly is gross and vulger but so is a lot of other sins.It not for me to change what God says about it.He made us in His image so its natural for me to find it offensive and repulsive to say the least.
Truth is truth even if it hurts or offends but it will set you free.
Roy
Comment by Roy — August 15, 2008 @ 8:37 am
Oh and by the way Ken,have you ever heard from God?Can you hear Him?Was everything Jesus said non-offensive?
Its only those that oppose truth that pull away from God.
I can understand leaving the church as so many are teaching the wrong thing and is a dead church ran by man and not God.
A good church is constantly growing and learning and nothing can stop a good church where God is present.
Check out http://www.dsheriff.org.I think you will be surprised.
Roy
Comment by Roy — August 15, 2008 @ 9:20 am
“Its not hateful that I have in my heart as you think for gays.The sin definitly is gross and vulger but so is a lot of other sins.It not for me to change what God says about it.He made us in His image so its natural for me to find it offensive and repulsive to say the least.”
This is coming from a self-professed drug dealer - somebody who’s likely got tons of kids hooked on who knows what chemicals, and have totally ruined their lives.
And instead of focusing on his own sinning, and trying to fan out the flames he started, he’s more worried about men who get it on with men, and trolling gay blogs.
There’s something seriously wrong with so-called “christians” - especially this one.
Comment by Scott — August 15, 2008 @ 12:53 pm
Roy,
One of the many problems I have with conservative Christianity is the fact that they view the world in black and white. The world is simply not so. History has shown the world not to be flat or the center of the universe. But those that claimed to be Christian demanded through Scripture that it was so. Now you have the Catholic Church apologizing for their mistake about Galileo four hundred years later! Talk about slow!
Simply, I find no freedom in your belief system. Only bondage. Despair. Pain. Suffering. Anger. If Christ came to free us why is man trying to bind us again? Christianity is a faith of peace and love. I do not find that in your belief system. Why do fundamentalist/evangelical Christians demand that we worship the bible rather than being guided by the Holy Spirit which Jesus said himself would come upon the Apostles after his ascension into heaven. The Bible itself clearly states in Acts 1, the Holy Spirit is to our guider in all things long before the Bible was even compiled. Why have they raised themselves an idol? Sure the Bible is a good source of understanding the history of our Creator but it is not a be all and end all of God and his revelation to us. Nor is it a rule book. God is greater than that. I firmly believe God is still revealing himself to us. Most of your ilk do not believe that because they are fearful that it may contradict everything they ever known from the Bible or what they have been taught. There own faith will be shattered. That is where Hope comes in for me. I hope in the things I cannot see or understand. Faith in him that will do what needs to be done rather than running to Scripture for answers to everything rather than letting God do what needs to be done. How can someone have any faith whatsoever if everything they need to know is written down in a book? Where is the trust in God? We must have Faith in him and in the things we cannot understand or see. I have found true freedom by letting God do what he needs to do. I rely on him solely and he will reveal to me through the Holy Spirit what I need to know. I have been blessed more so for this. I no longer feel quilt or shame as I once did. Christianity is not about fear, shame, guilt, hate, or bondage. Its about freedom and love of God and one’s neighbor above all things. That is why I find so much wrong with the Religious Right and conservative Christianity. There is no freedom. Only bondage. I could never bow to such false beliefs.
Yes, Roy, God has spoken to me. Really spoken to me. As if I were to talk to someone on the phone. I was in his presence. I couldn’t look up at him he wouldn’t allow that. But I was before him. And this was before I believed in him, understood Christ, or the Church. It took years before I became as Christian. I even left Christianity because of the way gays were treated. But I returned. I never lost my faith. Its just God and me now. I don’t listen to the dictates of man. And my faith in God is much better for it.
God Bless
-Ken
Comment by Ken — August 15, 2008 @ 3:49 pm
Ken
Some how we got off track with each other because I agree with your above statement about being led by the Holy Spirit.In fact I couldnt have put it better.
Im not very good with words and I cant express what Im tring to say all the time.
I was at a point in my life when I was so tired of depending on man to teach me,then as I was reading what Jesus said about sending the Holy Spirit to guide and teach us in all things.I said to God,”You promised this and I dont ask for it,I expect to recieve it”
It was then that things became so clear but I still have a long way to go.I have been a Christian for 10 years but the first few years was in and out.I have been very blessed.
Im not sure what you mean by my belief system.I do get angry but its very short lived.I dont have despair or live in doom and gloom.
So what is it that you and I disagree with?My church doesnt down or mistreat any one.
Its people like Scott and his comments shown above that pushes me to anger but look at all of his comments as they show up here and there.I know without doubt that God does not want me to be insnared by him.
He describes himself in all of his comments.
Have a blessed day Ken
Roy
Comment by Roy — August 16, 2008 @ 7:39 am
Scott
Just how miserable are you?
Somehow Im thankful for your comments to me.You encourage me to persevere and be humble and forgiving.Isnt it cool how God can use something bad to keep someone else in line?
I think Ill pray for you Scott.
Good Day
Roy
Comment by Roy — August 16, 2008 @ 7:49 am
Ken
I failed to say that I was inspired by your words about the Holy Spirit.I hope to hear from you again.
Yes I use to be a marijuana grower and dealer 10 years ago but kids were not my clients,they were Lawyers and Judges and their friends and Im not ashamed of it,but that was then and this is now.I know all too well what being lost is.
I have my reasons for wanting to understand gays and it has nothing to do with wanting to attack them even though I say things from time to time that is hateful.
I am attacked quite often, but each time I learn something.
Roy
Comment by Roy — August 16, 2008 @ 8:19 am
There is a such thing as black and white. It is called moral absolutes. Christian conservatives have a mission. That mission is to spread the true gospel of Jesus Christ. The TRUTH(Jesus)sets us free. Are there some constraints to being a follower of Jesus…YES! But the Lord tells us that “He will never give us more than we can take” and that “His yoke is easy and His burden is light”. He also tells us at least 10x in the bible that “If we love HIM we will obey His commands”. If He tells us that homosexuality is a sin (at least 6x in scripture)then he will give us the power to escape from any kind of sexual immorality that we get ourselves involved in.
Please try reading my book which is available on amazon.com. It is called “And Such Were Some of You: One Man’s Walk Out of the Gay Lifestyle” It details this hard but wonderful journey that anyone who struggles with unwanted sexual attractions can go on. I hope that it answers your questions on sexuality…In God’s Love, Anthony Falzarano
Comment by Anthony Falzarano — August 16, 2008 @ 9:48 am
Roy,
Good! You NEED to humble yourself, and get off your high moral pedestal. When you stop blaming gay people for all of your evildoings in life is when people might offer you a little respect. Until then, you’re garbage.
Same goes for Anthony trying to sell his fictional life-story book. Fortunately, I haven’t met many gay people as fucked up as Mr. Falzarano; nor do they have 400 notches in their bedposts, like he does. If anything, that book will teach readers not to be as filthy as he is.
Comment by Scott — August 16, 2008 @ 11:41 am
Scott
Its funny how good people get you so upset.Im beginning to find some humor in the things you say.In fact it reminds me of just how blessed and happy I am and that Im not like you.Im about truth and good things and tring to see the good in people of which you know nothing about.
Get a life man and quit hating so much.
Have you ever looked at yourself rather than just looking at others and their faults?Whats wrong with you?
I dont claim to be perfect or even near or expect anyone to agree with me about my beliefs.Im not tring to change anyone or belittle anyone.Is it just because I claim to be a Christian that you despise me?Why cant you be rational and say whats really wrong without all the anger.
AS for Anthony,Im not sure yet but it seems that he is at least tring to do something that he feels is good and right in his heart.Whats wrong with wanting to help people?Why does it make you mad for someone to say they are free from homosexuality and then say bad things about them?
Is there anything anyone can do for you Scott?
Roy
Comment by Roy — August 16, 2008 @ 2:27 pm
“Im beginning to find some humor in the things you say.”
Again, GOOD! If I didn’t inject humour into my writing, it wouldn’t be me.
As for hating, I don’t hate anyone. But clearly when you start obsessing about men boinking men, you really do go on a hateful rant, and then come back apologizing.
Lord knows you act the same way to your wife and allegedly gay stepson; except with them, I’m sure it involves physical contact. I don’t know who they are, but for their sake, they better get out before you kill them both, and convince yourself it’s OK because you’re “saved”.
As for Anthony, he doesn’t want to help anyone but himself - to their wallets, that is. And from experience, I can honestly say this “christian ex-gay” business is a fraud - and will hopefully someday be illegal.
“Have you ever looked at yourself rather than just looking at others and their faults?”
I accept everything I’ve done wrong. What pisses me off is when somebody sleeps with 400 people, and tries to profit off his sluttery by claiming all gay people have slept with 400 as well.
How about this deal - I take fault for whatever I’ve done - and Anthony can take fault for whatever he’s done. Unfortunately “ex-gays” don’t see it that way; not a single “ex-gay” has taken responsibility for their own evildoings.
“Is there anything anyone can do for you Scott?”
Thanks for asking - I could go for some Starbucks right now. Get me that white chocolate mocha whatever the fuck it’s called.
Comment by Scott — August 16, 2008 @ 3:04 pm
“Its funny how good people get you so upset”
Don’t even try to put the “good people” label on yourself:
http://joebrummer.com/WordPress/?p=1025
http://joebrummer.com/WordPress/?p=1026
Comment by Scott — August 16, 2008 @ 3:08 pm
Anthony, Anthony, Anthony, there is no black and white. Everything is grey. But I don’t expect a fundamentalist to believe it because they are wrapped up in bible literalism worship that they cannot see beyond the ink and paper. God is greater than written Scripture. His Word is Jesus himself in the flesh. Even Scripture admits this. But I digress…
Conservative Christianity is obsessed with homosexuality because it does not want its own sins revealed. Divorce, lying, cheating, abuse, excess wealth just to name a few. These sins are rarely mentioned in conservative churches because it makes there congregations nervous because it hits too close to home for them. But instead they hammer away at gays because its beneficial financially for them and safer to preach about. How many church people are going to give money to a minster if he preaches against divorce every Sunday? Lying? Or having excess wealth that hinders a person’s salvation? None. Not one. And they know it. Hypocrisy is so rampant in these conservative churches they cannot admit to themselves these are problems they need to face themselves. They don’t want to. Instead lets attack gays so we can financially be wealthy and have something great to preach on Sundays. Let’s keep the focus on gays all we can to feel better about ourselves since our sins are not as great as that homosexual sitting cowering in the corner. Its no wonder people have left conservative fundamentalist/evangelical churches by the droves and now admit it was a poison to their very lives. Some are even now atheists! I have been to Ex-Christian websites and I am saddened that they have been abused by these very churches and people that were to be helpers in bringing the Good News of Salvation! Shame on them! Shame! Shame!
Anthony, there is nothing on God’s green Earth that would make me read your book. Nothing you can say that would make me change my mind about anything dealing with gays. Peace has come to me. And all my faith has been put into an invisible God that I trust to help me through the thick and thin. And I am blessed more for it! Amen!
God Bless!
-Ken
Comment by Ken — August 16, 2008 @ 4:23 pm
Roy,
You and I disagree on gays. Plain and simple. As a gay man being guided by the Holy Spirit (over written Scripture) I found that listening to God rather than going to the Bible to find all the answers in life to be the most fulfilling thing I have ever felt in my life. I see people differently. I have more compassion for them. I have felt the Holy Spirit come upon me several times in my life as I desire to do his will of loving him and others which he commands us to do above all else written in Scripture. If you lead your life by the guidance of the Holy Spirit alone you find he is alive and speaking to your soul.
I cannot be a Bible literalist. It is wrong. And I truly believe if more people listen to the Holy Spirit speaking to them they can find that freedom I have. No guilt. No shame. Only wanting to love others and to see others as wonderful human beings rather than evil sinners, abominations, etc… I can’t allow that type of thinking to control my life. God is a positive influence. Not a negative one. There is no love in such words as abomination. Only contempt, dispair, and shame. There is no freedom. Only suffering. Christ DID NOT come to free us and then have man place us back into the bondage of shame and guilt!
I am sorry but I see nothing in the brands of most conservative Christianity that is happy or appealing.
God Bless!
-Ken
Comment by Ken — August 16, 2008 @ 4:50 pm
“Its no wonder people have left conservative fundamentalist/evangelical churches by the droves and now admit it was a poison to their very lives. Some are even now atheists!”
***RAISES HAND***
Bingo, Ken!!! But in addition to that (at least for me, personally), I hated being around them because they also gossiped about each others clothes, talked shit about the overweight people during potluck dinners (”I’ll bet so-and-so will be first in line”), and the list goes on - and this is just the goings-on inside the church. It wasn’t cute or endearing; it was fucked up.
Comment by Scott — August 16, 2008 @ 5:00 pm
Ken
Nothing you have described above is found in http://www.dsheriff.org
I go to this church and like any good church,it has its faults as in people working at issues in their lives but you will never hear Duane Sheriff downing anyone as a person for their sin.
Im not judging you even now that I know your gay and say your Christian.Im not even going to comment on that.I will say though that without the bible with Gods words though written by man but inspired by God are true and fact.You said yourself that you hear from God.Is he telling you that what he said in the bible and to Jesus and the apostles is not true anymore?
Does he say that being gay is not sin anymore?
The Bible has survived all this time and is still a number 1 seller.It is the greatest book of love and compassion and wisdom.It has answers to anything you have to ask.God has many ways to speak to us.Sometimes he will speak to you in the scriptures.
Im sorry Ken but we cant abandon what God says about same sex.If your hearing a voice say its ok,well your listening to the wrong voice.
Keep tring and hang in there.At least your not cussing me or callimg me names.That alone gets my respect for you.
Bless you
Roy
Comment by Roy — August 16, 2008 @ 7:12 pm
Scott
Please dont bring my family into this and say things about me that you know nothing about.Why do you insist on ranting and raving on me for everything I say?It is my guess that you have no one to say anything good about you.I also think that you are envious of me because you see something good in me and you dont know how to be good,only bad, and are you jealous Scott?
You think Im crazy now well youll think it even more now because I think God is tring to work in your life by communicating with me.Why else are you on me so bad?
Sure its a wild guess but you sure do hang on to me for more than just putting me down.
I know you have a good come back for me now.
Im still praying for your sins and salvation.
I found out a long time ago that the worst best thing to do to an enemy, not that your an enemy but is to pray for a working in their life for their sins and salvation.Look out Scott,I have my bag of chicken bones out.
Roy
Comment by Roy — August 16, 2008 @ 7:30 pm
LOL don’t flatter yourself.
If I were envious of you, I’d be on a “christian” website, or a website about heterosexuality. I don’t waste my time with either one.
As for “hanging on to you”, you’re the one hijacking websites I’ve been reading/posting on for over a year. I don’t know where the hell you came from, but you worked your way from Joe Brummer’s blog, to a blog I read more often than his (TWO).
With this evidence, I’d say you were the one following me.
As for the rest of your bucktoothed backwoods reverse psychology you’re trying to play with me, don’t insult my intellect. I’m not the one who believes in fairy tales.
Comment by Scott — August 16, 2008 @ 9:40 pm
And Roy, while I’m at it - about the “envious” thing: you’re the one trolling gay blogs and websites; you’re the one obsessing about your stepson’s alleged homosexuality; you’re the one who knows a great deal about homosex and fetishes.
Stop trying to push the “envious” thing on me and other gay people, when it’s obvious the only envious one is the person hanging out on gay websites, and chewing everyone out for doing the things he’s obsessed over.
What you’re doing would be like if I were to hang outside of Hooters, and be chewing out all those (mostly married) straight men for drooling over the servers.
Comment by Scott — August 16, 2008 @ 10:00 pm
Now I get it. I was trying to figure out where all the information about Roy was coming from, since the only link he posted was for a website that was not his own.
Thanks for the heads up, Scott, about his previous behavior. I am always very skeptical when someone who claims not to be gay becomes obsessed with gay political issues, or worse yet, particular sexual acts.
Comment by John — August 16, 2008 @ 10:09 pm
Now I know why God warns us to avoid people like you.
Ive acomplished all I need to know about most gay people.All of you have the same characterist qualitys that come from the twisted debased mind that God gave you up to.Even my stepson after reading all your comments says he doesnt want to turn out to be like you.In fact it scared him.
Thank you for showing him the consiquences of this vulger and unnatural sin.You have served my purpose.
Roy
Comment by Roy — August 17, 2008 @ 8:25 am
Roy, I think you are misunderstanding me. I never once said that we are to throw away the Bible which you are referring that I am. There are many translations of the Bible out there. Which bible must we hold up as God’s literal Word? Some say King James. Others say NIV. Which bible? I believe the Scriptures as written 2,000 or more years ago are True. However, over the centuries these Bibles were translated over and over again by imperfect human hands and mind. Not God’s finger. Humans make mistakes. I cannot allow myself to take a printed Bible and say that I literally believe this book is inerrant. Perfect in every way. I cannot. Remember, only God is perfect.
For example, what happened to Judas Iscariot after he betrayed Jesus? Acts says his body burst open and his intestines spilled out while Matthew says he hung himself. Which is it? Another example, how many Angels were there when the women went to anoint Jesus’ body at the tomb? Matthew and Mark say one. John and Luke both say two. Again, which is it? Which Apostle is correct? They cannot all be correct if the Bible is suppose to be inerrant. You see the contradictions I have shown you? If the Bible was perfect in every way then there would be No Contradictions! It would be perfect! But it is not! I cannot allow myself to believe in inerrancy when it comes to the bible. Simply, literalism is a Lie.
Yes, I do not believe being gay is a sin. I cannot because the bible passages I have read claiming that it refers to gay people have been mistranslated by men. The early church had no bible btw. What they relied on was tradition (word of mouth), prayer, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit in all matters. The first four hundred years of Christianity did not even have a bible. After the bible was compiled, only clergy had them, or the rich if you paid a monk to hand translate one for you. Only after the Protestant Reformation occurred did they mass produce bibles and let people translate the bible for themselves.
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant - not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. ~ 2 Corinthians 3:6
We are to live by the Spirit and not by the letter which many Christians have done and are still doing. Especially Fundamentalist/Evangelical Christians.
The Holy Spirit is still working in our time. He has made us realize as flawed humans that we were wrong about slavery, women, and now showing us that we are wrong about gay people. The bible supports slavery. We do not now. The bible supports that the woman is to submit to the man and be silent in church. Now most churches do not believe that anymore unless you come from a fundamentalist/conservative church. And now with gays being condemned, hated, killed, and bullied all because of who they are by those very same Christians. Not all Christians are killing gay people but some of them do claim that Scripture allows them to be killed because God commands it. Some Christians are coming around and realizing their mistake and apologizing for it. I only hope one day , like women and slavery, gays can be welcomed in all churches just as they are.
34.Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35.One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
36.”Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37.Jesus replied: ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[2] 38.This is the first and greatest commandment. 39.And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[3] 40.All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” (commandment of love) (Matthew 22:34-40)
Your last comment above Roy is not worth commenting on. All I can say is that you have fallen into the false lie of legalism, perfectionism, and bibliolatry (worship of the bible). I pray that the REAL truth one day will set you free.
God Bless
-Ken
Comment by Ken — August 17, 2008 @ 1:42 pm
“Even my stepson after reading all your comments says he doesnt want to turn out to be like you.In fact it scared him.
Thank you for showing him the consiquences of this vulger and unnatural sin.You have served my purpose.”
He said the same exact thing on Joe Brummer’s blog, too:
http://joebrummer.com/WordPress/?p=1025
http://joebrummer.com/WordPress/?p=1026
What a psycho! LOL
Comment by Scott — August 17, 2008 @ 1:48 pm
Roy, you have projected your own sins onto others. That, sadly, is the purpose that gay Christians and other gay people serve for you. You use them to avoid facing your own sins.
You are unrepentant; I hope your stepson grows up to be more humble and penitent than you have been.
I wish you peace and prayers.
Comment by Michael Airhart — August 17, 2008 @ 1:54 pm
Speaking of that stepson, it’s about time we call child protective services on Roy. If there really is a kid involved, I’m worried that Roy’s obsession over homosex is a prelude to something worse happening - especially when the boy is allegedly gay, and Roy is obsessed over this as well.
Comment by Scott — August 17, 2008 @ 1:55 pm
Wayne, and Michael - just for the record, Roy requested Joe Brummer to remove his email address (like the coward he is), after sending Joe several scathing emails. He did remove it from his blog post, but here it is, if necessary in the future:
roydmartin@cableone.net
Comment by Scott — August 17, 2008 @ 1:59 pm
Returning to the topic at hand:
Both Roy and Anthony totally sidestepped the issue of celibacy — as if they considered it a sin not to perform heterosexually.
Comment by Michael Airhart — August 17, 2008 @ 4:49 pm
[Comment deleted by Mike A. at 10:55 p.m.]
If Mr. Falzarano wishes to continue commenting here, he must do the following:
1. Keep his comments on-topic.
2. Maintain intellectual honesty. He may not repeatedly sidestep topics by accusing his critics of being possessed by demons.
3. Refrain from citing the selective anecdotes of a hate site as reputable evidence against gay people in general.
4. Refrain from distortion of federal statistics; factual claims must be linked to sources and quoted verbatim without distortion of context.
5. Refrain from strawman arguments about the values and statements of others, especially other commenters.
6. Refrain from equating his own selfishness and sexual irresponsibility with a “gay lifestyle.” We don’t tolerate hypocritical blanket statements about ethnic minorities; I see no reason to tolerate Falzarano’s sexual indecency and bigotry indefinitely.
If Mr. Falzarano wishes to violate basic standards for civil and factual discussion, he may do so on one of his own web sites.
This site exists for exposure and critical analysis of ex-gay consumer fraud. Ex-gay activists are invited to comment in good faith; they may not use the comments section to repeatedly rehash unsubstantiated hostilities, irrationalities, and outright fraud. Mr. Falzarano may not comment further on this page unless his comment relates specifically to gay celibacy and ex-gay disrespect for celibacy.
Comment by Anthony Falzarano — August 17, 2008 @ 5:29 pm
I can’t personally think of anyone that I know who has slept wtih more than 400 people. I also don’t socialize with any sex workers.
While I guess it is a good thing if Mr. Falzarano isn’t going around adding to his 400 plus sexual contacts anymore, it is a shame that he has just gone from excessive sexual activity to excessive religious harping on others who didn’t share his previous problems and don’t share his current interests.
I am still waiting for that at least one person who has truely converted from gay to straight. I doubt it will happen in my lifetime (or anyone else’s).
In the meantime, I have a great deal more respect for gay people who for religious reasons choose celibacy. At least they aren’t hurting others by dragging them into the ex-gay madness. It also seems so much more honest than the ex-gay’s who spend all their time lying about their orientation while spelling “truth” in all capital letters.
Comment by John — August 17, 2008 @ 9:16 pm
THE GAY TALK-SPEAK NAZI HAS STRUCK AGAIN!!!!!!
WHAT’S THE MATTER MR AIRHART WAS THERE TOO MUCH HONESTY ABOUT WHAT REAL KIND OF SICK THINGS GO ON IN THE GAY UNDERWORLD THAT YOU DON’T WANT YOUR BLOGGERS TO HEAR. LET THEM LOOK AT PETER LABARBERA’S WEBSITE AND SEE THE FOLSOM STREET FAIR PICTURES! LET THEM LOOK AT THE NEW CENTER FOR DISEASE CONTROL DATA ON AIDS THAT REPORTS “OF ALL NEW AIDS CASES 62% ARE HOMOSEXUAL INFECTION. WAKE UP MR AIRHART THE EXGAYS HAVE ARRIVED!
Comment by Anthony Falzarano — August 18, 2008 @ 8:01 pm
By the way the pictures of the Folsom Street Fair in San Francisco are posted on americansfortruth.org You say that this kind of stuff is no longer going on in the gay lifestyle Mr Airhart. Look for yourself…YOU ARE EITHER LYING OR YOU ARE NIEVE!!!!!!
Comment by Anthony Falzarano — August 18, 2008 @ 8:07 pm
Gays who decide to be celibate for religious reasons would not be able to contract HIV (or any other STD) through sexual contact, since they aren’t sexually active. So shouting about HIV seems completely off topic.
While I can see why Falzarano and LaBarbera might want to drool over salacious pics from the Folsom Street Fair, I doubt it would have much appeal to gays who choose celibacy for religious reasons. So again, it seems unrelated at best to the topic at hand.
Comment by John — August 18, 2008 @ 9:44 pm
“By the way the pictures of the Folsom Street Fair in San Francisco are posted on americansfortruth.org You say that this kind of stuff is no longer going on in the gay lifestyle Mr Airhart. Look for yourself…YOU ARE EITHER LYING OR YOU ARE NIEVE!!!!!!”
It does go on Mr. Falzarano. But sexual-fetishes are not unique homosexual sexuality, which is what you are implying. And this is unfair.
“LET THEM LOOK AT THE NEW CENTER FOR DISEASE CONTROL DATA ON AIDS THAT REPORTS “OF ALL NEW AIDS CASES 62% ARE HOMOSEXUAL INFECTION.”
Except that HIV/AIDS contraction is NOT the result of same sex attraction — which is what you imply. True, unprotected anal receptive sex with someone who is HIV+ significantly increases the risk of contracting the disease. And this needs to be dealt with better than it has been. But it is wholly unfair to equate this kind of “subculture” behavior to the supposed pursuit of the “sin” of same-sex attraction (relationships) itself. Which is what it seems to be that you’re doing.
There is a difference between sexual addiction and sexual attraction.
Comment by Emproph — August 19, 2008 @ 4:20 am
“YOU ARE EITHER LYING OR YOU ARE NIEVE!!!!!!”
No, Anthony, YOU’RE the liar.
Any person who knows how to use Google can read for themselves that the FSF is open to anyone, and is attended by both hetero/homosexual folks.
I can’t believe you’re citing Peter LaBarbera - a gay pornographer! Oh, and let’s not forget those video titles he posted pictures of, which was discovered to be heterosexual fetish titles.
And we all know you’re not “NIEVE” - but you are going to hell for bearing false witness like it’s going out of style. If you REALLY believe in God (and I don’t believe you do), you should be aware that you’ll be so caught up when you meet your maker, that you’ll have absolutely no chance in heaven - same goes for your buddy, Peter.
And besides your ranting about homosex - nobody will ever take you guys seriously until we actually see one of you raising hell about swingers clubs, of which there are many. It’s no big secret that lots of “conservative christians” are wife swappers and cuckolds, yet “christians” have no problems with that.
Comment by Scott — August 19, 2008 @ 11:45 am
Anthony said: “When I quote 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 that practicing homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God”
I laughed at this. And the reason why I do is the Bible NEVER, EVER, made a distinction between, “practice” and orientation. But some bibles are now (have been for sometime) being printed with the word “practice” in front of the word homosexuality (the word itself didn’t exist until the late 1800’s) admitting that there is an innate orientation but the practice of it is a sin. Why? So the conservative Christian church won’t seem as bigoted and condemning to not only those in their churches that struggle against their orientation constantly but to society as a whole. Oh, as long as they are celibate and struggling and giving into other Christian’s bigoted demands they are inheritors of the Kingdom of God.
What a load of crap! Paul made no distinction if you take his words to mean that homosexuals will not inherent the Kingdom of God! We are only beginning to understand about sexual orientation. Paul had no understanding 2,000 years ago! Its no wonder why the conservative Christian church is confused about gays. I am so glad I am not part of that institution! Now I understand why Anthony is so confused and others that think like him.
God Bless!
-Ken
Comment by Ken — August 19, 2008 @ 12:33 pm
I also have to say this goes for the Roman Catholic church and other denominations that make a distinction between “practice” and orientation. While its a step in a positive direction to final acceptance of gay people as full sexual beings, what bible publishers have done is taken liberties at adding to the Bible and in effect given Paul the knowledge between gay “practice” and gay orientation and now refer that Paul all along was speaking of “practice”. Wrong! This is a grave error on their part and one that should be corrected.
Comment by Ken — August 19, 2008 @ 12:42 pm
I’ve temporarily prohibited further comments from Anthony Falzarano due to his repeated violations of the previously stated guidelines for civil discourse.
He is welcome to return after he acknowledges the guidelines and demonstrates an ability and willingness to honor them.
Comment by Michael Airhart — August 19, 2008 @ 12:52 pm
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 says neither the greedy nor slanderers nor swindlers shall inherit the kingdom of Heaven.
In other words, it seems to be describing hucksters like Anthony Falzarano.
It’s a good thing I’m not a fundamentalist. Unlike the Bible, I don’t damn Falzarano to hell.
Addendum: Before claiming to know CDC statistics regarding HIV/AIDS, Falzarano should actually take some time to read them.
Comment by Michael Airhart — August 19, 2008 @ 2:18 pm
Michael Airhart…Now I remember one of the reasons I decided to leave the gay lifestyle behind…because of miserable QUEENS like you. What’s wrong Michael someone finally has been able to confound your gay agenda and lies with TRUTH, so now you want to kick me out of your sandbox (blog)? Grow-up! Many ex-gays such as Chambers and myself have tried to reason with you. As the bible says; “it’s like throwing our pearls before swine”! you have been enlightened with the TRUTH. If you reject it and continue to spread your lies about the normalcy” of the gay lifestyle…You will be accountable some day!
Comment by Anthony Falzarano — August 19, 2008 @ 7:28 pm
Ken’s comment here became stuck in a spam filter. I have released the comment, and I encourage Roy to read it.
I remain eager for ex-gay persons, or individuals sympathetic to ex-gays, to defend or explain the opposition of Exodus and Focus to gay celibacy.
Comment by Michael Airhart — August 19, 2008 @ 10:24 pm
“I decided to leave the gay lifestyle behind”
If that’s true, then why is “the gay lifestyle” your only source of income? Why can’t Anthony Falzarano hold gainful employment, unless it involves talking about man-on-man sex?
And you got it all backwards when you refer to the “swine”, and “miserable queens”. That would be guys like yourself and Chambers - on the outside, looking in. Falzarano can’t even go a single day without thinking or talking about homosex - and he’s the happy one?
Comment by Scott — August 22, 2008 @ 6:48 am
Mr. Falzarano and others in the anti-gay movement are obsessed with the extreme behavior of some gay men and foolishly think it’s reasonable to broadbrush all gay men with the foibles of a few. They add to this the illogical notion that their personal experience in the so-called ‘lifestyle’ is what every gay man experiences or should experience. Using these false premises they proceed to draw some grim picture that they use to freak out (and sometimes titillate) straights and scare the hell (literally) out of gays. When called on this snow job they then proceed to lash out in a manner that is beyond juvenile and renders irrelevant any points they might have. The kicker of course is they remain convinced that they should be taken seriously and are operating in a reasonable and loving manner.
Comment by PW — August 27, 2008 @ 12:57 am
PW:
And that’s one of the reasons why the “ex-gays” will never be accepted by gay people - they believe all gay people had the same personal experiences, have the same addictions, have the same number of sex partners, etc. And they won’t accept “you’re wrong about that” for an answer.
I’m sorry to inform Mr. Falzarano that most gay people I’ve ever associated with hasn’t even slept with 1/4 of the number of men he’s slept with. 400 men? How many men is that a day? Did he have a neon “OPEN 24 HOURS” sign in his bedroom window?
The good thing is America is growing tired of gaping sluts like Anthony Falzarano pointing their fingers at everyone else but themselves. People are going to get sick and disgusted of skanky tramps with a bible in hand, trying to force their own nasty pasts down everyone else’s throats, and trying to brainwash everyone else into believing they’re guilty of the same things.
Comment by Scott — August 27, 2008 @ 7:22 pm
Oh Scott, Someday your vitrolic remarks will come back and bite you when ex-gays will have a hate-crime bill written for them. If an ever-straight posted similar remarks that you have said about me on the internet you would probably be screaming hate crime…hate crime. What’s the matter are you feeling guilty about all the lies that you have told about the gay community??? Your “tales of deceit” will crumble under the honesty of the ex gay movement???
THe ex-gay movement is the monkey wrench in the finely-tuned motor of the “gay political Rolls Royce”. The Church and the government are finally listening to the testimonies of the tens of thousands of ex-gays that are telling them what really goes on in the gay world.
For every soul that you “trick” into the gay lifestyle I promise you that you will give an account to God for someday. The ex-gay movement is here to say. People like you and Wayne Besen and Airheart might be winning some of the battles but God will win the WAR when HE comes back to judge the lambs and the wolves…What side will you be on Scott…THe Right or the LEFT????
Comment by Anthony Falzarano — August 28, 2008 @ 12:49 pm
You’re really not worth the time, but I’ll humour you:
“If an ever-straight posted similar remarks that you have said about me on the internet you would probably be screaming hate crime…hate crime.”
Uh, no - I would say “so nothing’s new today, compared to yesterday, last week, last month, and last year”.
“What’s the matter are you feeling guilty about all the lies that you have told about the gay community???”
Unlike you, I don’t have to resort to fiction.
If anyone should be feeling guilty about being a liar, you should look in the mirror.
“THe ex-gay movement is the monkey wrench in the finely-tuned motor of the “gay political Rolls Royce”.”
No, the “ex-gay movement” is just a desperate monkey on the back of the gay community - their only means of income, beings most are too unstable to be around normal people.
“tens of thousands of ex-gays”
Where?
“For every soul that you “trick” into the gay lifestyle”
I don’t know what “lifestyle” you’re talking about - since I haven’t been to a gay bar in about 2 years, haven’t been to a pride parade since the late 90’s, and have no use for the “gay strip” in town.
But if you mean if I can trick people into becoming music addicts and collectors like myself, I’d be doing the gay community a favor - beings most people associated with that above-mentioned “gay strip” has lousy taste in music to begin with. Fuck Kylie!
“I promise you that you will give an account to God for someday”
Impossible - I don’t believe in fairy tales.
“the WAR when HE comes back to judge the lambs and the wolves…What side will you be on Scott…THe Right or the LEFT????”
Well, beings I don’t prey on innocent and mentally confused and vulnerable people, like yourself and the rest of the wolves, I suppose I’d be with the lambs.
Anything else?
Comment by Scott — August 28, 2008 @ 4:37 pm
Mr. Falzarano, I don’t doubt that you and others have benefited from leaving some very destructive habits and behavior patterns. I don’t doubt that you have developed strong aversions to many of the things you’ve done. I don’t doubt that you sincerely believe you’ve made the right choices and that your choices are God-inspired and directed. But none of this, and I repeat none of this, gives you the right and privilege to declare war against gays and lesbians. And that is the point that Mr. Airhart and Mr. Besen are constantly pointing out. This not about denying you the right to your choices and experience, this is about standing up and saying to you that we will not stand idly by and let you stereotype and scapegoat us. We will not be silent while you fan the fires of discrimination. And we will resist to the end your goal of depriving us of our rights as human beings.
Comment by PW — August 28, 2008 @ 10:17 pm
Back to the original subject, I would add that another factor plays into the disdain some ex-gays show for those who are celibate but honest about their sexual orientation: that factor is the disdain (albeit passive disdain) that conservative churches have for singles in general. Unlike Catholicism which has a tradition of revering celibacy for the sake of faith and thus in a more general way respects single people, Evangelical Christianity views (or seems to view) celibacy as merely a stage of life, a stepping stone to the ‘higher calling’ of marriage. The state of being single either by choice or by circumstance is not honored. No special support is offered to those who give up their sexuality for the sake of faith. So it’s not surprising that ex-gays (who after all are seeking the acceptance of conservative churches) have adopted the same bias and bought into the nonsense that licensed and practicing heterosexuals are spiritually superior to everyone else.
Comment by PW — August 29, 2008 @ 5:41 pm