Truth Wins Out has created a petition to demand that Apple remove its bigoted Exodus International iPhone app:
Tags: anti-gay, Apple, Bigotry, ex-gay, Exodus International, iphone, John BeckerExodus International, the notorious “ex-gay” organization, has just released an iPhone app that, according to its website, is “designed to be a useful resource for men, women, parents, students, and ministry leaders.” The Exodus website further boasts that its app received a 4+ rating from Apple, meaning that it contains “no objectionable content.”
No objectionable content? We beg to differ. Exodus’ message is hateful and bigoted. They claim to offer “freedom from homosexuality through the power of Jesus Christ” and use scare tactics, misinformation, stereotypes and distortions of LGBT life to recruit clients. They endorse the use of so-called “reparative therapy” to “change” the sexual orientation of their clients, despite the fact that this form of “therapy” has been rejected by every major professional medical organization including the American Psychological Association, the American Medical Association, and the American Counseling Association. But reparative therapy isn’t just bad medicine — it’s also very damaging to the self-esteem and mental health of its victims.
This new iPhone app is the latest move in Exodus’ dangerous new strategy of targeting youth. In light of the recent wave of LGBT youth suicides, this tactic is particularly galling as it creates, legitimizes, and fuels the ostracism of LGBT youth by their families. According to a study published in the Journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics, LGBT teens who experienced negative feedback from their family were 8 times more likely to have attempted suicide, 6 times as vulnerable to severe depression, and 3 times more likely to use drugs (Caitlin Ryan, San Francisco State University, June 2009).
Apple doesn’t allow racist or anti-Semitic apps in its app store, yet it gives the green light to an app targeting vulnerable LGBT youth with the message that their sexual orientation is a “sin that will make your heart sick” and a “counterfeit.” This is a double standard that has the potential for devastating consequences.
Apple needs to be told, loud and clear, that this is unacceptable. Stand with Truth Wins Out — demand that the iTunes store stop supporting homophobia and remove the Exodus app.
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I’m curious if Apple would offer an app that sells a phony cure for cancer. The only possible reason for the Exodus app is to groom possible victims for future cash harvesting. Exodus is a snake oil business and needs customers. Why would Apple facilitate such a scam that exploits vulnerable people just like fake cancer cures.
Comment by Kevin — March 9, 2011 @ 4:30 pm
[...] Sign the Petition Demanding that Apple Remove Exodus’s Bigoted iPhone App. Take Action [...]
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Apple needs to seriously reconsider. This “group’ offers pseudo-therapy that is neither recognized or supported by any legitimate psychological, psychiatric, or medical organization or association. It is as Kevin said, “Snake Oil”.
Comment by Gianni — March 10, 2011 @ 12:19 pm
Racist and anti-Semetic apps are rightfully not allowed. As a gay customer of Apple I am DEEPLY offended that they would not only allow this app but give it a great rating. Remove it or lose a customer. I will be Facebookinf and Tweeting about this.
Comment by Derric Dalton — March 10, 2011 @ 1:03 pm
Folks do two things while also signing this petition. Email the big dog at sjobs@apple.com. Then go to the iTunes and give the app a bad rating. Let’s get the networks going!!!
Comment by Misswildthing — March 11, 2011 @ 6:53 pm
As probably one of the few people who have downloaded and seen the app, I gotta, say there is nothing objectionable in the content of this application.
I don’t agree with their message, but this is same stuff that that you’d see on their website and in brochures. Would you try to make a petition banning those?
I don’t know about you, but I’m not comfortable being the app police. This is censorship plain and simple and I think we should focus on more worthwhile things.
Comment by TolliverM — March 13, 2011 @ 9:57 am
How is our world supposed to grow and create more humanity when hate and lies is what our country gravitates too. For a company so large to support something so awful, is not only discrimination but it is demoralizing for homosexuals everywhere. Can we not get past the blinders of hate?
Comment by Tracy m — March 13, 2011 @ 9:57 am
I would also like to point out that the group “Wipeout Homophobia on Facebook” just banned me from their group for sharing this opinion with them!
Free speech at work!
Comment by TolliverM — March 13, 2011 @ 10:00 am
They banned me as well. I pointed out my support of free speech as long as it doesn’t infringe on the rights of others. I’m severely disappointed in them.
Comment by Nathan B — March 13, 2011 @ 11:58 am
Nobody i know is advocating shutting down their website. I support their right to have the site; just as i support the right for White Pride sites to exist.
However, if Apple is going to ban white supremacist and anti-semitic apps, they should do the same for anti-gay apps. Our humanity is not up for debate – there are not “two sides” to that issue.
Comment by Emily K — March 13, 2011 @ 1:17 pm
I think it is extremely ironic that those who don’t have an honest idea what Exodus is or *really* stands for can still scream and moan about tolerance and freedom and the right to have choices.
Gay activism screaming tolerance out of one side of its mouth and screaming kill the christians and their ideals at the same time is the utmost in hipocricy.
As someone who has been gay-labeled and identified, I KNOW what I’m talking about.
You’re making a bunch of asses out of yourselves. For Pete’s sake, grow up and grow some real balls.
Comment by Trent T — March 13, 2011 @ 11:17 pm
Trent, we have a far better idea of what Exodus really stands for than you do. Whatever “someone who has been gay-labeled and identified” means it sounds like delusional b.s.
Many of us on this site have been through the “ex-gay” industry. Many of us have been through the Exodus dissappointment mill so don’t delude yourself in thinking you know something about this dishonest group that we don’t.
We have grown up and we take responsibility for our own actions and we know who we are and we’re happy being true to that. I hope someday you can say the same.
Comment by Daniel — March 13, 2011 @ 11:28 pm
So offensive
Comment by Lloyd — March 14, 2011 @ 1:01 am
Uh, Trent?
You just made a giant a*s of yourself. You may not be aware, but you’re on the website of the foremost organization in existence which has been monitoring these groups over the years. Indeed, the founder of this organization began to make national news when he caught the “ex-gay” poster boy John Paulk trolling for male a*s in a gay bar in Washington DC.
So when you say things like this:
“I think it is extremely ironic that those who don’t have an honest idea what Exodus is or *really* stands for can still scream and moan about tolerance and freedom and the right to have choices.”
You reveal yourself as an unrepentant moron. Moreover:
“Gay activism screaming tolerance out of one side of its mouth and screaming kill the christians and their ideals at the same time is the utmost in hipocricy.”
God, they’ve taught you how to be a victim quite well. Though I imagine you were probably already susceptible to their message because you have some kind of jejune sob story about how awful your life was when you were honest about your sexuality, that they were then able to manipulate you into (weak as you were and still are) blaming all your whiny problems on your sexuality. No one has ever said “kill the Christians,” at least not on this website. There is a big difference between calmly and humorously pointing out that FUNDAMENTALIST Christians (always so laughable how extremist fundamentalists want to paint all Christians with the same broad brush, as if they’re all insane wingnuts) who support “ex-gay” businesses are A. Liars and B. Fools and doing something so unreasonable as saying “kill the Christians.” Indeed, I believe that what bothers wingnuts the most is that we so often calmly and humorously point out the obvious stupidity and dishonestly of our ideological opponents. When they/you attempt the use the same tactic on us, unfortunately, you have no reality with which to back up your statements, so you just end up looking even dumber. It’s a terrible cycle, but you, too, can change and embrace the light of verifiable reality.
And when you describe yourself as one who “has been gay labeled and identified,” I would only suggest that your verbosity annoys me, and that you just simply refer to yourself as what you are: GAY.
Comment by Evan Hurst — March 14, 2011 @ 3:03 am
It’s a free app. Downloading it into your iTunes gives you the ability to give it a rating and a comment in the iTunes store. Have fun.
Comment by Little Bear — March 14, 2011 @ 1:34 pm
I certainly do NOT support fraudulent “ex-gay” “therapy.” However, where is OUR pro-equality App. to put on Apple’s iPhone? No one is born homophobic and in fact, homophobia is a sin like lying, stealing and murder. It would be just as useful to create an App. to help those suffering from homophobia walk away from it. One only has to watch the movie, “Tears For Bobby” to see that even the most vicious homophobe can leave homophobia if she/he really tries. We can also channel the power of Jesus to help those trapped in homophobia find a way out of it. You can have Apps. removed; you can also fight “faith” with Faith.
Comment by Michael — March 17, 2011 @ 7:18 pm
The Gay History Project and HRC offer apps, but you’re right Michael, there should be a variety of apps to help gay youths and young adults, and gay people from religious backgrounds.
Unfortunately, apps require $$$$ or donated technical skill to create, and not many organizations have the resources.
Comment by Michael Airhart — March 17, 2011 @ 10:54 pm
Hate speech should never ever be confused with free speech, hate speech kills – FACT! It is also illegal in most of the free world, with a penalty of up to 7 years here in the UK. If the app is available internationally it has to conform to international law. Oh and BTW why would anyone join a group called wipe out homophobia on facebook if they don’t want to wipe out homophobia??????
Comment by Kevin — March 18, 2011 @ 1:13 pm
Has anyone seen the app or are you all just prejudging it?
If there is one thing I hate it is people prejudging something… :)
Comment by JDR — March 18, 2011 @ 6:36 pm
JDR, it’s Exodus–is it really a mystery as to what it will be about? It’s not really prejudging if you’re basing it on actual experience with the group.
Comment by Daniel — March 18, 2011 @ 7:01 pm
“not really prejudging if you’re basing it on actual experience with the group”
So prejudging something or someone based on your view of the group they associate with and not on consideration of that person or item…
How is that not prejudice?
Comment by JDR — March 18, 2011 @ 7:17 pm
JDR, it’s not “prejudging” it’s “judging”.
Comment by Daniel — March 18, 2011 @ 7:46 pm
Sorry, my mistake…
If there is another thing I hate it is people judging others…
Comment by JDR — March 18, 2011 @ 7:49 pm
[...] objectionable content? We beg to differ,” wrote TruthWinsOut.com. “Exodus’ message is hateful and [...]
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The cancerous growth of the gay opportunists needs to be stopped now. Homosexuality is not only wrong, but it is not Biblical and very much not natural to biological science. Society had it all right a few years ago when gays were considered freaks of nature. Political rightists and the A.C.L.U. have people afraid to object to this abnormal way of life. Hopefully, that will change. Maybe, we can find an island to segregate those gays to. Then, maybe they will be willing to listen to someone who is trying to help them get out of that damnation of a life style.
Comment by John Potensky — March 19, 2011 @ 12:48 pm
I do not understand what the problem is…..do all gay people think that everyone that is gay is happy?????It is just an app for those people that are unhappy with their lifestyle and want to see if they can change. It will be only be these people that will have the app…it isn’t going to be mandatory to have and the mass media will not have it unless they download it. At some point in life, everyone is dissatisfied with their life style ( including heterosexuals) and look for way to change that part of their life that they do not like. This category might be only a small number….but I think all gays should support anyone who is looking ….and not shut down something that they themselves do not want. Please do not be sooo narrow minded and shut down a road that someone else might want travel.
Comment by Cheryl — March 19, 2011 @ 12:58 pm
Honey, it’s homohatred that isn’t natural.
According to Jesus himself– remember the guy who said mind your own business repeatedly– it’s not biblical.
Freaks, segregate, island… I know jesus would want you to love one another.
Since I am an amewrican citizen, a tax payer, a law abiding, productive, contributing member of society, well thought of by friends, colleagues, family, and neighbors…
perhaps you might explain what YOUR problem is?
It doesn’t really matter, of course. It’s nothing that education, compassion, logic, and a love of your fellow humans won’t cure.
Comment by Ben in Oakland — March 19, 2011 @ 1:11 pm
And Cheryl– we say what we say because we do want people to be happy.
The queen of exgaynia herself says that he has never changed, that he is as big a queer as ever he was. the research of Jones and Yarhouse, heavily biased towards the ex-gay position, confirms this. It doesn’t work.
Educate yourself before you preseume to speak on a subject you know nothing about.
Comment by Ben in Oakland — March 19, 2011 @ 1:14 pm
And john?
” Political rightists and the A.C.L.U. have people afraid to object to this abnormal way of life. Hopefully, that will change. ”
God, if that were only true. We wouldn’t have to watch the right wing drag our ocuntry into the swamp, using gay people as their boat of choice.
Obviously, you are fearless, becauase here we are
Comment by Ben in Oakland — March 19, 2011 @ 1:17 pm
Comment by Ben in Oakland
First nowhere did Jesus say mind your own business. The rest of your satire I guess you would call it is unreadable. Please try again with English so I can understand what you are saying. Second the APP if you actually checked it out is for those unhappy with their life. Nothing wrong with that is there?
Comment by dave — March 19, 2011 @ 1:25 pm
OMG! potensky and cheryl are the epitome of STUPID, it’s not even ignorance. First of all john, ‘the rightists’ are the conservatives and are generally homophobic a******s like you; people on the ‘left’ are the intelligent, educated ones who support equality. Second, homosexuality most certainly IS natural, the animal kingdom has quite a bit of it, including same-gendered pair bonding, and besides not much of what humans do these days IS natural.
Cheryl-being lgbt is NOT!!!!!!!!!!! a lifetstyle, please come out of the 80s. And gays who are ‘unhappy’ with who they ARE, need to learn self-acceptance and stop internalizing society’s ignorance and disapproval (which is rapidly improving). You obviously didn’t read much on this topic, as Exodus and groups like them are perpetrating a FRAUD, destroying people’s lives and stealing their money.
Comment by Gary (NJ) — March 19, 2011 @ 1:35 pm
Judge not lest ye be judged.
Look not for the speck in your bother’s eye…
Let he among you who is without sin…
Do unto others as…
Sounds like mind your own business to me, but then, I’m a liberal translator of the bible.
“Second the APP if you actually checked it out is for those unhappy with their life. Nothing wrong with that is there?”
nothing at all, if it weren’t a total fraud. Let me repeat:
“The queen of exgaynia herself says that he has never changed, that he is as big a queer as ever he was. the research of Jones and Yarhouse, heavily biased towards the ex-gay position, confirms this.”
That queen is alan chambers, who makes a very nice living selling snake oil to frightened people, a snake oil he admits DOES NOT WORK ON HIM.
Comment by Ben in Oakland — March 19, 2011 @ 1:41 pm
Ben, I understood you just fine. You can add ‘dave’ to the stupid gay-hater list.
Comment by Gary (NJ) — March 19, 2011 @ 1:43 pm
Seems to me all of you, whatever side you are on, are whining about nothing. First of all, Freedom of Speech is real big here in the US. As attested to by all people whatever your gripe is.
If you don’t like what someone says or does you have the right to look the other way or; do what all of you are doing…WHINING. Get a Life…
Comment by Thomas — March 19, 2011 @ 1:56 pm
Whatever happened to free speech? There are two sides to this argument and just because you do not agree with the other side doesn’t mean that they should be censored.
Comment by Frank — March 19, 2011 @ 2:18 pm
Nothing happened to free speech. no one is being censored, they are being disagreed with.
As for two sides? Strictly speaking, yes. There are two sides to the KKK vs. black people, but one of them is illegitimate.
Believe it or not, i have no problem with people who believe homosexuality to be a sin. That is strictly a matter of opinion.
where i have a problem is when someone tells me that becauase of his opinion– and for no other reason based in reality– my life should be made as difficult and unpleasant as possible, and that my very irght to exist is open for debate.
that what John means when he talks about islands.
Comment by Ben in Oakland — March 19, 2011 @ 2:25 pm
Aren’t gays even MORE hateful and bigoted to one another? As a gay man who has never found acceptance by other gays, because I never “fit in” to THEIR image, I say look at and improve yourselves FIRST before bitching and moaning about everyone else.
How two-faced and contradictory can you be??
Comment by Cocktalia — March 19, 2011 @ 3:14 pm
After signing the petition,
I added a link to it on my web page.
Hope it meets with your approval.
neo
Comment by NEO — March 19, 2011 @ 3:14 pm
CT– you’re hanging around the wrong gay people.
Comment by Ben in Oakland — March 19, 2011 @ 3:37 pm
Cocktalia — perhaps you were just unpleasant, so people had the good sense to stay away from you. Don’t blame the entire LGBT community from having the common sense to pick high quality friends. Maybe you should take personal responsibility, look in the mirror and and try to figure out why you so repelled people.
Comment by Wayne Besen — March 19, 2011 @ 3:45 pm
[...] are demanding that it be removed. “No objectionable content? We beg to differ,” wrote TruthWinsOut.com. “Exodus’ message is hateful and bigoted.” Change.org has launched an online [...]
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Pingback by APPLE UNDER FIRE FOR APPROVING ‘GAY CURE’,SAIFOOL TO HELP GAY INDIVIDUALS BECOME HETEROSEXUAL-GAY MARRIAGE « the naked truth politics from the heart — March 19, 2011 @ 4:02 pm
why is not OK to disagree with an opinion any more. If you dont apporve of something why does it have to be anti? I dont care the taste of cheese, am I anti-cheese, a cheese HATER? There is so much talk of acceptance but at the same time no acceptance for people with different views on the part of the people crying for acceptance.
Comment by mestreno45 — March 19, 2011 @ 4:07 pm
“Second the APP if you actually checked it out is for those unhappy with their life. Nothing wrong with that is there?” – dave
Third, premium rate psychic and astrological telephone help lines, if you actually check them out, are for those who want to know their future. Nothing wrong with that, is there?
“Nothing happened to free speech. no one is being censored, they are being disagreed with.” – Ben in Oakland
Very important point, the difference between censorship and disagreement. Yet it is one that many in the “ex-gay” movement don’t seem to have grasped yet.
Comment by William — March 19, 2011 @ 4:17 pm
First of all lets every one stop and take a deep breath. This web site is established so people that are hurting will have a place to turn too and receive the word of GOD. Jesus does not want us to judge but he does want us to share his word with every one. One day we will all face our GOD and we hope that our names are in the book of life. It is only a crazy person that would not want to at least talk to christians and to attend a church service. Remember its your life and GOD loves you and does not want any one to go to hell. That is why he sent his son so that all of us would know the truth so please I ask that you at least read the bible yourself, and open your mind. My daughter is Gay but I still love her and I pray for her and the women she is with.
Comment by James — March 19, 2011 @ 4:19 pm
This program is stupid but I respect their right to want to produce it. Oh, but this is an app store. Brings new meaning to proprietary software there needs a new word for this — Apple.
I’m going to go jailbreak my device to use software Apple didn’t accept into their app store.
Comment by Sageru — March 19, 2011 @ 4:22 pm
“My daughter is Gay but I still love her and I pray for her and the women she is with.”
Why “but” and “still”? Why not “My daughter is gay and I love her”?
Comment by William — March 19, 2011 @ 4:23 pm
Jeez, look at all the a******s in here.
Trent: “As someone who has been gay-labeled and identified, I KNOW what I’m talking about.”
Yes, Trent, because someone called you gay, you totally know the plight of gay people and what they have to go through every day from bigots like… well, like you. And if you’re a legitimately gay person who’s been lassoed by these ex-gay idiots, then you need to run while you still can. Also lawl, “kill the Christians”? Yes, being against religiously-motivated bigotry means we want to kill them, yup, that’s totally what it means.
JDR: “If there is another thing I hate it is people judging others…”
Then stop judging us and shush. The grown-ups are talking.
Dave: “Second the APP if you actually checked it out is for those unhappy with their life.”
And why are they unhappy with their life? Perhaps because they’re pressured by bigots into thinking that they’re broken and diseased. Yanno, like what this app does.
Thomas:“First of all, Freedom of Speech is real big here in the US.”
And the Apple app store isn’t the US. It has terms of service that people are supposed to agree to and follow when they submit apps to the store. One of them is–OOPS–no bigotry allowed.
mestreno45:“I dont care the taste of cheese, am I anti-cheese, a cheese HATER?”
Are you seriously going to compare LGBT human beings to cheese?
Really?
Are you seriously going to compare the constant guilt, harassment, suspension of human rights, violence, and bigotry aimed at LGBT people with disliking the taste of food?
Do you really want to go that route?
Comment by Makyui — March 19, 2011 @ 4:33 pm
James:“One day we will all face our GOD and we hope that our names are in the book of life.”
Objective, verifiable evidence that any of this is true, please.
Comment by Makyui — March 19, 2011 @ 4:36 pm
I’m not gay myself but I never understood why people have the urge to “convince” gay people that what they are doing is wrong.
For me those people (those that try to convince gay people) are of weak minds. They feel vulnerable and as such they need to proof themselves every day that their way is the right way to go. As such they can’t tolerate if anyone has a different way of living.
What I also ask myself every day:
if God is all mighty and all knowing, who are we to tell what he’s thinking? How can we know? How can we interpret his will and project it on our lives?
In my opinion this would be a great insult to god, as he would take care of people who make him angry himself. In addition he gave us (given that he exists) the opportunity to be different, to have various opinions.
Aren’t we insulting god by telling HIM how HE wants us?
I never got a real answer for that other than “read the bible”. I guess nobody has a real answer to that, without revealing to himself that he might just end up acting against God’s will.
So all the gay hating is essentially spitting on God’s work, as people try to correct what God created. Good way to make him angry (given that he exists), in my humble opinion.
Ps:
Sorry for my English, it’s not my native language. However, I hope that you get my point anyways.
Comment by Fire — March 19, 2011 @ 5:27 pm
This is not a “hateful” and “bigoted” app but is there to help those who want help and who wish to abstain from homosexual activity. If you had a relationship with Jesus, you would be aware of His power in helping THOSE WHO WANT HELP in overcoming these desires. It’s there for the asking. God bless!
Comment by Bridget — March 19, 2011 @ 5:29 pm
The Homos and the liberals just hate the Truth. As far as I am concered they are nothing more than a Pigs. They all should find an Island and then they could do what ever that they want.
Comment by James Bond — March 19, 2011 @ 5:41 pm
“Remember its your life and GOD loves you and does not want any one to go to hell.”
But he does. He’s the one responsible for creating hell, for failing to get the message out to the 2/3 of the world who, after 2000 years, still don’t buy the very un-compelling Christian story, for sending people there, and making so many Christians so a*s-hatterrific that who would want to spend 20 muinutes with them, much less eternity.
Comment by Ben in Oakland — March 19, 2011 @ 6:20 pm
Bridget:
You must not be aware of what Exodus does. The group is anti-freedom and this app is part of the problem. Exodus coerces youth against their will to attend scientifically bankrupt programs. These poor kids have no choice.
Plus, Exodus does not work. It is consumer fraud that bilks desperate and vulnerable people. It takes their money and provides no service.
Comment by Wayne Besen — March 19, 2011 @ 6:21 pm
James Bond – your Truth is as fictitious as your name. And Exodus is as much a fraud as you are.
Comment by Wayne Besen — March 19, 2011 @ 6:22 pm
Bridget: “This is not a “hateful” and “bigoted” app but is there to help those who want help and who wish to abstain from homosexual activity.”
It is nothing of the sort. If they want to abstain from homosexual activity, all they have to do is say no. It worked for Nancy Reagan.
Comment by Ben in Oakland — March 19, 2011 @ 6:23 pm
I would like to ask A Scenario i guess about God,
The Bible teaches God Loves everybody ( right ), I thought so.. Now God knows everything and everybody and there thoughts? Why does he allow little children to be abused by people, I bet that any Gay man or woman would fight to the death to save child from a pedophile, why does God allow this to happen, I know this for a fact if my son or daughter was a pedophile I would have trouble turning them or WORSE! Why doesn’t this group find a bigger problem to go after????????
Comment by Dingo Bobb — March 19, 2011 @ 6:38 pm
I meant to type I would NOT have trouble turning them in…………sorryyyyyyy I can type 168 words a day
Comment by Dingo Bobb — March 19, 2011 @ 6:43 pm
God wants us to be happy, and if being with someone of the same gender makes you happy, whose place is it to say that it’s wrong? It’s certainly not Exodus, who’s bastardizing relgion for profit. Or those religious fanatics who think they’re holier than us. Can’t you zealots just leave well enough alone? Go troll sex-offenders, pedophiles, zoophiles, etc…. people who actually do harm to other people.
Comment by Joshua Targosh — March 19, 2011 @ 7:44 pm
Fire, you’re English looked fine. :) And you’re right, the people who go out picking on LGBT people like Exodus does are scared people. They’re afraid of bogey men inside them and around them, so they go after the “threats” (i.e. people who are different) in an attempt to feel better about themselves.
Bridget: “but is there to help those who want help and who wish to abstain from homosexual activity.”
You don’t seem to get it. It’s people like Exodus who guilt gay people into wanting to change in the first place. If it weren’t for people (like you) saying that they’re broken and need fixed, they wouldn’t be lured into predatory pseudoscientific fraud groups like Exodus.
What a brilliant scam. Convince people that they’re horribly diseased, and then tell them that the only cure is to give you their time and money. Especially their money.
Comment by Makyui — March 19, 2011 @ 8:34 pm
This is ridiculous. The last I knew this was a free society. If you do not like the app don’t buy it. Gay Americans are largely accepted. There will always be those with their bigoted opinions. The app doesn’t bother me a bit.
Comment by robert — March 19, 2011 @ 10:57 pm
http://www.change.org/petitions/truth-wins-out-stop-with-the-reverse-suppression-from-gays-4
Comment by Apple Repair Store New Orleans — March 19, 2011 @ 11:25 pm
[...] to remove the app from the app store by change.org, who’s already gotten 33,690 signatures. Truth Wins Out, a gay rights organisation has joined the fight to remove the [...]
Pingback by Apple Approves ‘Gay Cure’ App From Religious Zealots, Outrage Ensues | DRS | Derangedshaman.com — March 20, 2011 @ 1:42 am
When I read this I was furious. I am an iPhone App developer and have developed and app call Flirt with Me – Spanish. The app enables a user to pick a woman’s body part and key words to make a flirty phrase. All sexual body parts are non-selectable. Apple has continually rejected the app due to objectionable content. One of the examples given is you can make a phrase like, “I want to rub your beautiful thighs”. I argued with Apple asking what is the definition of objectionable. I said they have a Koran app. I said surely any Sarah Palin follower would find that objectionable, yet that is ok. They said that that was an incongruent argument. I love Apple products but Apple has become ridiculous in its Big Brother mentality. The Apple “Deciders” are insane.
Comment by Robert — March 20, 2011 @ 10:53 am
I find the content of the app to be offensive BUT I DO NOT want it removed. I want to know if we could get an app with the opposite message passed. I am an app developer; if you have ideas and want to help … email me at chester.t.scrapps@gmail.com
Comment by Khris Hoven — March 20, 2011 @ 4:26 pm
Khris:
Why are you singling out Exodus for special treatment? The group clearly violates Apple’s policies. Apple rejects thousands of apps that are much less offensive.It is not as if we are asking Apple to do something extraordinary. We are simply asking them to follow their own policies.
Comment by Wayne Besen — March 20, 2011 @ 4:55 pm
Not trying to single out Exodus. I am on your side, Wayne. At this moment, however, I must tell you: a search for “Cure Gay” has 1 result… an app for finding a cure for AIDS. I am hoping that the problem has cured itself. :)
Comment by Khris Hoven — March 20, 2011 @ 8:26 pm
In all my years on this planet, I have had the pleasure of supporting and learning about dozens of worthwhile non-profit organizations; however, the gay and lesbian community is so rooted in hatred that is actually scares me. I have never seen so much hatred and actual discrimination for those who oppose this lifestyle. I, for one, having an open and intelligent mind would welcome such ideals to determine their merit as there is always the possibilty that such hatred is based on actual fear of the truth? It is worth investigating so that the actual truth can be told. I would welcome the truth and not live in a lie. Otherwise, life is simply not worth living as it is compared to truly living in a closet.
Comment by Fulano De Tal — March 20, 2011 @ 10:08 pm
“[T]he gay and lesbian community is so rooted in hatred that is actually scares me.”
Aww, you poor baby. :c The big bad gays are upset that people like you are trodding rough-shod over them and so they’re saying mean things like, “Stop being hateful and treat us with respect.” That must be so hard on you. :C
“I have never seen so much hatred and actual discrimination for those who oppose this lifestyle.”
LOL “actual discrimination”. You wouldn’t know actual discrimination if it beat you over the head with a baseball bat.
“I, for one, having an open and intelligent mind…”
LOL
“there is always the possibilty that such hatred is based on actual fear of the truth?”
No, the “hatred” (why do anti-gay people always see disagreement, criticism, and righteous outrage over LIES and OPPRESSION as hatred and “reverse discrimination”?) is pretty much because you refuse to treat us like human beings. I’m sure that you, having an “open and intelligent mind” can understand that. Right?
Wait, nevermind, you think being LGBT is a “lifestyle” so it’s pretty clear that you’ve already made up your mind about what the “truth” is.
“It is worth investigating so that the actual truth can be told.”
Good idea. Next, we’ll give the KKK and neo-nazis equal billing so that the “actual truth can be told” about racial minorities, right?
Comment by Makyui — March 20, 2011 @ 10:26 pm
[...] af appen har strakst affødt en række protester i det amerikanske, ikke mindst fra homoseksuelles interesseorganisationer. Apple har endnu ikke ladet høre fra [...]
Pingback by » NetNews: Etiske Microsoft og homofobiske Apple - Tech tjek - teknologi til folket — March 21, 2011 @ 4:31 am
Apple please don’t allow these people to use the App Store to spread their hateful message. How can you claim to reject apps that are mean-spirited but allow this group to say that there is something wrong with me in their app and I need to be cured?
Comment by Russell — March 21, 2011 @ 12:21 pm
How is this app homophobic? It is their opinion that their app can help people. It is your opinion that it cannot. Where is the hatred here? It seems as though anytime someone doesn’t agree with your stance, they are labeled homophobic and some hateful words are sent their way. While I’m not particularly fond of the treatment used in the app, it’s certainly not hateful. If someone is going to choose to be gay or choose to be ex-gay, that is their choice. If they need to resort to treatment such as this, deep down they probably want to stay gay.
Comment by hmm — March 21, 2011 @ 12:32 pm
hmm
who I suspect is posting under several names…
1) NO ONE ever choose to be gay. OR NOT to be. Saying what you did just makes you sound ignorant.
2) would you support an app for say, “teen suicide”?..if that is “what they want”?
would you support an app that is pro Anorexia? Some people are you know. But, becuase both sides are harmful, they are not supported.
3) the message of “you need to be ‘cured’” that is implicit in the very existance of such an app is hateful in that unthinking people will hear of it and say “gee…if they can be ‘cured’(sic) then they don’t need any legal protections or legal status for their families…they just need to be ‘repaired’.
It’s b******t, and it is unacceptable.
Comment by Gene — March 21, 2011 @ 12:38 pm
Nope, first time visitor, first message posted.
1) Until someone proves otherwise, it’s the truth. I know many don’t like it, as it kills any argument for gay rights, but what can you do? You managed to prove my point in your first sentence. Someone doesn’t agree with you and you throw hate their way. How do you believe people come to be gay? Some mysterious gene? How they were brought up? Given that neither of these has been proven, how is your explanation any more valid than mine?
2) So you are comparing teen suicide and anorexia with being gay? It was my assumption that being gay is something good and ok. Yet you compare it with two things that aren’t either good nor ok. Not wanting to be gay is not similar to wanting to commit suicide or wanting to be anorexic.
3) Ah, I see you haven’t even downloaded the app. I suggest you do so before judgeing. The message is far from “you need to be cured”. The message is “if you don’t want to be gay, we may be able to help”.
Comment by hmm — March 21, 2011 @ 12:51 pm
[...] Today, everyone has their knickers in a twist over yet another controversial app that Apple allowed into App Store. According to the Register, an application that helps customers discover “freedom from homosexuality” can be purchased from Apple’s iTunes-based store. Activist organization Truth Wins Out has a petition asking Apple to remove the app. [...]
Pingback by Apple approves "gay cure" app | eWallstreeter — March 21, 2011 @ 12:59 pm
[...] Today, everyone has their knickers in a twist over yet another controversial app that Apple allowed into App Store. According to the Register, an application that helps customers discover “freedom from homosexuality” can be purchased from Apple’s iTunes-based store. Activist organization Truth Wins Out has a petition asking Apple to remove the app. [...]
Pingback by Apple approves "gay cure" app | Next Apple Stuff — March 21, 2011 @ 1:53 pm
[...] Truth Wins Out – Sign the Petition Demanding that Apple Remove Exodus’s Bigoted iPhone App [...]
Pingback by Daily 03/21/2011 | LINKING ONLINE TO OFFLINE | birgerh.de — March 21, 2011 @ 3:36 pm
Extremist religious bigotry cannot be accepted under the false pretense of free speech.
When it comes down to it, this application clearly classifies homosexuality as a sickness and therefore I regard it as racist and against EU constitution.
Bigottismo religioso estremista non può essere accolto sotto il falso pretesto della libertà di parola.
Alla fine, questa applicazione classifica chiaramente l’omosessualita come una malattia e quindi io lo considero razzista e contro la costituzione europea.
Comment by stefan labuschagne — March 21, 2011 @ 5:04 pm
[...] Today, everyone has their knickers in a twist over yet another controversial app that Apple allowed into App Store. According to the Register, an application that helps customers discover “freedom from homosexuality” can be purchased from Apple’s iTunes-based store. Activist organization Truth Wins Out has a petition asking Apple to remove the app. [...]
Pingback by Apple approves “gay cure” app « mtrocky — March 21, 2011 @ 5:46 pm
Ben, I have many friends that are gay… and to your surprise…some have became heterosexual because they tried something different. I am not a hater…I am someone that feels that all people that are gay… some are not always gay forever…I have friends to prove that. So I think it is you that is a hater and narrow minded..sorry Ben. You need to open your eyes to the bigger picture that everyone is NOT the same. Sorry again for letting people change if they want to. I am not narrow minded, you are. Studies only prove what you want them too….believe me…I am a teacher and see the educational system do this over and over…whatever they want to support at the time, they find a study to prove it.
Comment by Cheryl — March 21, 2011 @ 5:56 pm
Yeah, these friends of yours that totally exist totally changed completely, forever, and now think opposite-sex people are totally awesome, instead of just the one specimen that they happened to find that can get their engine going with a little coaxing.
Being a teacher doesn’t give you special insight into the scientific world. Sorry, it doesn’t. If you really believe that studies “only” prove what you want them to, then I hope you’re still going to the doctor whenever you get sick or hurt, instead of just turning to the first bit of quackery you can find that promises to do the job. Their research is based on the same scientific principles that these studies you reject are based on.
Independent studies, done by multiple groups, have shown that ex-gay therapy doesn’t work, and those that do claim to be cured eventually “relapse”, or leave, or just outright hurt or kill themselves. You say that “everyone is not the same”, and yet no matter how hard anyone tries, they can never get any evidence that significant change is actually going on at all.
You don’t seem to think that legitimate, mainstream medical groups are knowledgeable enough to say that this stuff is b******t. Or am I mistaken? I hope I’m mistaken.
Comment by Makyui — March 21, 2011 @ 6:11 pm
hmm: Until someone proves otherwise, it’s the truth.
No, idiot, that’s not how it works. It’s only “the truth” after it’s been demonstrated to be true.
Or maybe you can prove otherwise that there aren’t invisible dumbshit pixies floating around in your head and making you think dirty thoughts about your grandmother?
Comment by Makyui — March 21, 2011 @ 6:20 pm
Life is not about keeping people from being insulted. Everyone can be insulted about anything… but of course the tolerance “train” only goes one way. Either you accept homosexuality as normal or you’re a bigot and we can’t tolerate you. That’s all too convenient – only tolerate those who accept your view. What next? Christianity offends you because it says we are born in sin? Might as well get hurt over anyone who disagrees with you while we’re at it. Toughen up, we should only attack organizations that are physically going to attack homosexuals by taking their job away or their right to be left alone.
This organization is only operating under their belief system and offering services that intends to help. It is up to the homosexual to participate or not. You can think that their views are false and promote it as such but it is not intended to HARM anyone. If anything, they’re supposed to be loving toward homosexuals. This is hardly comparable to racism or anti-semitic apps as there’s no attempt to enslave, persecute or murder anyone.
Comment by Gil S. — March 21, 2011 @ 6:47 pm
Gil S, I think this Ap does cause harm. If you took the time to read more on this site you might find out exactly how Exodus causes harm. I don’t expect that you will because you’re a fundamentalist Christian apologist and you are already anti-gay so I don’t really care about your opinion anyway. But the idea that Exodus is loving toward homosexuals is just laughable and that you would say such a stupid thing just makes you laughable.
Comment by Daniel — March 21, 2011 @ 7:08 pm
Gil, this isn’t about being insulted. This is about being lied about and being guilted into doing harm to oneself. And yes, there is harm involved, whether Exodus intended it or not. Intention isn’t f*****g magic; it doesn’t make the harm go away. They’re fully aware of what they’re doing, since they continue to lie and misconstrue even the words of scientists who turn around and tell them to stop, and they aren’t the slightest bit remorseful when people kill themselves because they’re so ashamed of “letting God down” and feeling miserable. Yanno, because Exodus told them that they’re disgusting.
You think that racist apps are only racist if they attempt to “enslave, persecute, or murder”? You don’t think spreading lies and hatred about minorities is enough, or that it doesn’t contribute to persecution and murder? You know, like what Exodus is doing? You don’t think telling people that they’re disgusting and need to be “saved” from a made up, invisible disease is harmful and hateful?
Oh wait, nevermind, you don’t seem to have any problem with what Exodus is doing.
And for the record, Gil, I do think Christianity is offensive when it tells people that everyone is sinful. It’s degrading and disgusting and guilts people into pouring their resources into a corporation so that they can be “saved” from… oh hey, another invisible disease that was made up!
Grow up.
Comment by Makyui — March 21, 2011 @ 7:25 pm
My company recently made a funny iphone app featering some naked breasts. Not porn, very innocent, very funny, but it was refused by Apple. And now a gay-hating app gets a great rating. I will NEVER buy ANYTHING from Apple.
Comment by Will — March 21, 2011 @ 7:56 pm
@ Daniel
You’re right, I have not read the articles here as I did not notice but contrary to your bigoted and fallacious response, I am actually rather open to reading the content on here. The problem I have is how often people like you will spread a lot of hate about anyone who takes a position that is contrary to yours. Derogatory hate speech (e.g, “fundamental christian apologist”) does nothing to engage my argument. I may be wrong about Exodus International and I have no problem reading such evidence. After all, it would not be the first time that some so-called Christian organization does something abhorrent.
@ Makyui
Let’s just put this “emotional” logic to the test. If I was to put a Cross in front of my house and someone got offended, how would I be at fault? Intention is important or else we’d count any accidental killing as “murder” – which is absurd. Furthermore, did I claim that it REMOVED the harm? No, I happen to just be unaware of that harm. What if there is at least ONE person who had positive effects through this program? Do you acknowledge any such person? Just one person can refute the entire claim that it is always harmful.
Look, if your position is true, then we’d need to censor and punish anyone who holds to a false belief that COULD/WOULD be harmful. For example, if someone held to an incorrect view of economics, politics, religion, etc then we’d need to censor that. However, this seems to be absurd. We can rightly stop those who wish to implement those beliefs so I can see that perhaps Exodus needs to be shut down but don’t freakin blame this on Apple. If Exodus is OBJECTIVELY doing wrong then make a court case about it and shut it down to the ground. However, why has it NOT been shut down?
Instead of putting effort into removing a stupid FREE app, I’d be making sure that the organization gets destroyed. From what I can tell, the studies that have been reported on Wikipedia are surprisingly in favor of there being no harm done to the individuals. The only harm that I can see is that you want to say that it is bad to say something is bad… just like how saying that we’re born in sin is “invisible” when it is only invisible to you. I suppose you think we live in some kind of Barney World?
Comment by Gil S. — March 21, 2011 @ 11:15 pm
“Derogatory hate speech (e.g, “fundamental christian apologist”)”
Oh good grief. “Fundamentalist Christian apologist” are mundane labels USED by fundies, idjit, not insults.
On the other hand, “idjit” is an insult. Cry more.
“If I was to put a Cross in front of my house and someone got offended, how would I be at fault?”
LOL, whut. You’re comparing the display of your property upon your property, with the deliberate spreading of hateful and bigoted lies about whole groups of people in order to fleece them of their money, leading to very real harm and death.
I got a better one: if I’m running a “clinic” that purports to cure diabetes with magic water and therapy, and spread lies about how diabetes is caused by bad behavior, and people start sending their children to me instead of treating them with medicine, and children start dying of diabetic shock, does the fact that I didn’t intend to kill them change the fact that children died because of my scam? What about when I start blaming the children’s deaths on the children themselves?
“No, I happen to just be unaware of that harm.”
Well, you’re in luck, then, because that’s what this website is about. Look around a little.
“What if there is at least ONE person who had positive effects through this program?”
What if there’s at least ONE person who has positive effects through my hypothetical magic water clinic? Does that justify the children that were killed through neglect?
Why do you belittle the physical and mental injury and death of thousands of real people just so you can reach for one “success”, Gil?
“Just one person can refute the entire claim that it is always harmful.”
That is the stupidest s**t I’ve heard tonight, and I’ve heard a lot of stupid s**t tonight. Just one person could survive a gunshot wound to the head. That doesn’t mean we start telling people that headshots aren’t dangerous.
“We can rightly stop those who wish to implement those beliefs so I can see that perhaps Exodus needs to be shut down but don’t freakin blame this on Apple.”
This is about an app on Apple’s property that abides by Apple’s rules. You’re blowing it out of proportion.
“Instead of putting effort into removing a stupid FREE app, I’d be making sure that the organization gets destroyed.”
Because we’re not doing that already? Man, you need to get out more.
“From what I can tell, the studies that have been reported on Wikipedia are surprisingly in favor of there being no harm done to the individuals. “
And from what I can tell, the studies that were reported by actual mainstream medical groups have found it totally ineffective and very harmful.
But hey, doctors, what do THEY know?
“I suppose you think we live in some kind of Barney World?”
Yeah, it’s a Barney World, Gil. That’s why we’re dealing with the reality of manipulative religious predators handing out pseudoscientific quackery that results in dead children.
You are an IDIOT.
Comment by Makyui — March 21, 2011 @ 11:58 pm
The jury is out as far as my assessment of Exodus International, but I think this whole thig is being blown out of proportion. I don’t think the app is hateful. Maybe there are some inconsistencies with the apps that Apple approves but some of the things being said here are even more distorted.
Comment by Susan — March 22, 2011 @ 1:46 am
Susan: Name one.
Comment by Evan Hurst — March 22, 2011 @ 1:57 am
Evan, if she picks “Exodus leads to dead kids,” I’m going to scream.
Susan, if the app was for helping people “cure their Jewness” and told people that being a Jew was a sickness, would you not think that was a hateful app?
Comment by Makyui — March 22, 2011 @ 2:02 am
It leads to dead adults too.
Comment by Evan Hurst — March 22, 2011 @ 2:20 am
True, true. Way too many of ‘em, and the ones that aren’t dead physically are often dead inside.
If she picks it, I’ll scream twice.
Comment by Makyui — March 22, 2011 @ 2:32 am
Yeah, if she picks it, she’s going to be opening a can of worms she doesn’t even understand. Let’s keep talking about her like she’s not here lol
Comment by Evan Hurst — March 22, 2011 @ 3:01 am
Dish dish dish! :D
Comment by Makyui — March 22, 2011 @ 3:14 am
[...] ?????-???????" ??????, ?????? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ????????? ?????? ????? [...]
Pingback by ????????? ??????? ?? ???????? « ????? ???? – ??????? ????? ??????????? — March 22, 2011 @ 11:54 am
@ Makyui
That is not a response to the criticism. Saying it isn’t an insult is just stupid. I am complaining about the prejudice, I could care less about a random internet dweeb who thinks illogically, as most seem to do.
The point was simple – just because it offends does not make it an offense. Yes, because a non-profit organization is clearly taking all their monies while putting them in concentration camps.
You cannot be without such intentions if it is a SCAM by definition. This example fails since it would be the case that 100% would die, provided that the magical water does not work. Is there such evidence that this is ALWAYS or MOSTLY the case for Exodus International? Please, don’t give me this FUD. Correlation does not IMPLY causation. This is a fundamental logical principle. For example, if homosexuals seem to experience sexual diseases and death (and this happens), does that mean that homosexuality is bad?
Your reading comprehension skills are horrible. I only said that it would refute the claim that it ALWAYS harmful. That does not mean that it could not USUALLY be harmful. Learn to read please.
If the evidence was that compelling, it should’ve been shut down a long time ago. Of course there are some possible explanations for why this hasn’t occurred. Care to provide any?
Nowhere does it claim that it results in death. There are suicides but like anything, this is more complicated than just blaming the therapy sessions. Remember, correlation does not equal causation. It could be that they’ve committed suicide for different reasons or because their friends/family were not loving them. If this argument was valid, we could discredit any psychological therapy session just because the person in question decided to commit suicide. Furthermore, if you looked closely at the fine print, you’d notice a pattern:
“…have raised serious concerns about its potential to do harm.”
“…that it CAN do more harm than good”
“…and in fact they MAY be harmful”
This is just based on “possibility” and a few selected individuals who were harmed. In addition, this does NOT prove that Exodus International is engaging in harmful practices. You need to provide specific studies, not generalized claims. There are different methods that could be used to “resolve” homosexual tendencies. Not all of them are alike.
I think I will say no more as your ability to engage in rational and respectful discussion is poor on all accounts. You may have the last word… that I will likely have the displeasure of reading.
Comment by Gil S. — March 22, 2011 @ 4:42 pm
Wow!, I just skimmed through all these comments. It appears that an unusually large percentage of the commenters may have been home-schooled.
Comment by Richard Rush — March 22, 2011 @ 5:43 pm
“I am complaining about the prejudice”
Oh, that’s right. Gil thinks that using descriptive labels that fundies themselves use on themselves is prejudice against fundies. Because fundies don’t actually know what prejudice is; they just get their panties in a twist when anyone dares to stand up against them or speak about them in a negative way.
“The point was simple – just because it offends does not make it an offense.”
Um. Yeah, it does. If someone finds it offensive, that makes it offensive by definition, even if only in the case of that one person.
But this isn’t about offense, anyway. You just decided to pull some weirdo s**t out of your a*s that had nothing to do with what I was saying, and ignore everything else I said. When I said that intent isn’t magical, I was saying that just because you didn’t intend to kill people when you got drunk and swerved over three lanes of traffic into a crowd of people, it doesn’t magically mean that people didn’t die from your negligence. Yanno, kind of like it doesn’t matter if Exodus wasn’t deliberately trying to kill people, because people still died as a direct result of their negligence and irresponsibility, which you keep pretending isn’t real.
Idiot.
“Yes, because a non-profit organization is clearly taking all their monies while putting them in concentration camps.”
LOL I like how you think that gay people are only harmed when they’re put in concentration camps (and actually, yeah, they kind of are). It’s as though you think they aren’t human beings or something.
“You cannot be without such intentions if it is a SCAM by definition.”
Bullshiiiit, dumbfuck. My intention was to fleece idiots from their money, not kill children. You’re saying that anytime someone starts up a scam operation, their intention is to kill children?
“This example fails since it would be the case that 100% would die, provided that the magical water does not work.”
What the bloody hell are you talking about? You realize my hypothetical isn’t far from the scammy s**t faith healers and unscrupulous homeopaths do in the real world, right? But their mortality rate isn’t 100%. So they aren’t real scams? It’s only a real scam if 100% of children die from it?
Why are fundie idiots so focused on 100% results only when it’s something that they disagree with? Do you only take medicine when it has 100% success rates? Good luck with that.
“I only said that it would refute the claim that it ALWAYS harmful.”
Yeah, except that no one said that it is always, 100% harmful (even though it pretty much is harmful by definition, what with the guilt and the self-loathing that’s inherent to the practice, but hey why would things like self-esteem matter to gay people?). The fact that 100% of people don’t die from gunshot wounds doesn’t mean we shouldn’t discourage people from wanting to shoot themselves.
Idiot.
“If the evidence was that compelling, it should’ve been shut down a long time ago. Of course there are some possible explanations for why this hasn’t occurred. Care to provide any?”
LOL what a privileged, ignorant thing to ask. It might possibly be for the same reason that it took over a hundred years to go from “It’s illegal to keep slaves” to “People of Color are equal human beings except we’ll still pretty much treat you like second-class citizens, sorry about that.”
Or perhaps for the same reason that, yanno, people are still allowed to try and treat their diabetic kids with magic water and wishes, and senators are allowed to “trump” science with “The bible says so.”
In other words, the US is still Moron Country where the people who hate us are still in power and know how to manipulate their “flocks” who are desperate to please Jesus. Idiot.
“There are suicides but like anything, this is more complicated than just blaming the therapy sessions.”
Because it’s not like ex-gay survivors have come forward and outright stated that they’ve attempted suicide as a direct result of their ex-gay therapy or anything. I mean, why should we give a s**t about that?
“Furthermore, if you looked closely at the fine print, you’d notice a pattern:”
You are such an idiot, and your overt smugness despite the fact that you clearly have no f*****g clue about scientific literature is laughable. ALL scientific literature avoids languages of absolute certainty, you moron. If you read a paper on the toxicity of Black Mamba venom, you’ll notice that even then they use words like “may” and “can” with regards to deadliness, even though you will very likely die if you were envenomed.
But hey, according to your logic, anything that isn’t 100% certainty doesn’t mean s**t, which means you can go dancing with Black Mambas all you want, no problem! You can’t say it’s really harmful!
“In addition, this does NOT prove that Exodus International is engaging in harmful practices.”
Yeah, the fact that doctors are saying that Exodus is engaging in harmful practices doesn’t prove that Exodus is engaging in harmful practices. Gotcha.
“You need to provide specific studies, not generalized claims.”
Oh, okay. Here you go. Not that you’ll read it without completely misconstruing it or anything.
“You may have the last word… that I will likely have the displeasure of reading.”
Okie-doke. Not like you’re the only one reading this anyway. Jeez, what an arrogant thing to say.
Comment by Makyui — March 22, 2011 @ 6:14 pm
Actually wait. Hang on. I take one thing back.
“Yeah, the fact that doctors are saying that Exodus is engaging in harmful practices doesn’t prove that Exodus is engaging in harmful practices.”
Technically, this is true. Doctors saying stuff doesn’t prove anything.
Unfortunately for whatever point Gil was trying to make, however, scientific understandings of reality don’t deal in proofs. They deal in objective, verifiable evidence.
And the evidence points to Exodus and other “reparative” therapy goons doing more harm than good, with no real evidence that they actually work.
So yeah. Shove it.
Comment by Makyui — March 22, 2011 @ 6:29 pm
This pissed me off so much that I wanna through my mac book pro out the window and never purchase anything from apple. They need to get it together and get rid of this app. They don’t allow anti-racist and anti-semetic apps but they allow a gay “curing” app. As if being gay can be cured! Psh! Ignorants fools!
I can’t find the app. so where the hell is it? Hopefully apple will stop being bigoted and get rid of it! Or else windows will be back in reign and I don’t wanna see that happen so apple WAKE UP and make the people happy!
Comment by Rachel Mergel — March 22, 2011 @ 9:17 pm
Like I expected, your response is a pain to read. Remarks like “Shove it” and persistent name-callings are childish. Your reasoning sucks as well because I have not labeled myself a fundamentalist and I consider that a bigoted term. If you’ve been debating on the internet for as long as I have, you’d realize that the word is meant to connote a person who is self-commited to blind religious irrationalism. This is not a position that I hold so it is a BS label to use. However, I will give you credit for providing sources and for that reason I will respond to your arguments.
If pointing out the facts is smug, then I’m happy to be guilty as charged. I’m quite aware of how science works, thank you. However, terms like “may” are only possibilities, not probabilities or actualities. It is possible for science to be factually certain. For example, water is composed of H2O. In other cases, it may be a factual theory (e.g, evolution) where the facts are best explained by a certain process but it is of course always possible for another theory to prove more cohesively explanatory. However, in other cases there may only be probable facts. I did NOT claim that science must be “absolutely” certain to begin with. All I did was point out how your source sticks to possibilities, not probabilities or actualities.
If I pointed to a study that claimed that Exodus International MIGHT or CAN be beneficial, would that prove that it IN FACT is likely to be beneficial? No, you’d complain about it just as I am doing. It appears you just looked online for something that would seemingly support your position without actually reading or critically analyzing what was actually being said. Next time, provide a source that claims it is likely and generally true of most, if not all, sex-change programs.
Never implied that.
I only said it was MORE COMPLICATED than just pointing to suicide statistics, not that the above has never been the case. Again, you’re brilliant at magically extrapolating claims that were otherwise not said. Next thing I know, you’ll claim that I think the moon is made out of cheese and then complain about how I am the greatest moron of all times. -_-
FYI, to prove something is to simply “demonstrate the truth or or existence of something through evidence or argument”. This is compatible with what you’ve said there.
Thanks, that is a well-detailed report. It will take some time to read this thoroughly and I will refrain from being certain that I have accurately represented the article in its entirety but just some reading of the article reveals this:
This is hardly proof that Exodus International is LIKELY to be harmful. In fact, I think this shows that the evidence is very weak. If this is a correct reading, then I think I can safely conclude that claims of harm are just blown out of proportion.
Comment by Gil S. — March 22, 2011 @ 10:55 pm
The number rule in medicine, Gil, is:
First, do no harm.
As this site, beyondexgay.com, exgaywatch.com, boxturtlebulletin.com, and others have thoroughly documented:
Exodus frequently harms people who have subsequently come forward, identified themselves, recorded the harm that was done, submitted to clinical scrutiny, and undergone years of professional therapy to undo the damage done by Exodus.
http://www.truthwinsout.org/category/videos/survivors/
Meanwhile, after 35 years in existence, Exodus still refuses to allow its programs to be objectively evaluated for safety. Exodus still refuses to require a minimum level of academic and professional certification. And Exodus still refuses to monitor its local programs and refuses to allow states to monitor them — not only for success or failure, but also for safeguards against molestation.
As a result, we have documented numerous cases of Exodus leaders molesting their clients. We have documented other instances in which Exodus’ flagship program and its unlicensed employees (mis)managed client medications.
http://www.truthwinsout.org/category/videos/scandals/
When Exodus hires evangelical researchers to assert feeble claims of success, here’s what happens:
http://www.truthwinsout.org/blog/2009/09/4247/
Instead of evaluating evidence, Gil, you cherry-pick and misquote facts to rationalize a supposedly tolerable level harm — and to excuse a failure-to-change rate of nearly 100 percent.
Comment by Michael Airhart — March 22, 2011 @ 11:12 pm
Not to nitpick but that’s a moral rule.
Hmm, I will have to evaluate these sources. However, I would prefer scientific peer-reviewed sources as they are generally more trustworthy. I am skeptical of such testimonies for the same reason that I am skeptical of “ex-gay” or “gay” testimonies. Each of them can be emotionally, socially and psychologically biased. For example, suppose that I am convinced that Exodus International is an EVIL organization. I could easily invent a story that would fulfill my agenda, if it is accepted without verification.
On what basis is that charge made? You’ve introduced other sources that I had not addressed. If I have “cherry-picked” or misquoted any facts, then I’d appreciate some clarification. For the record, I do not claim that Exodus has a success rate as I am not knowledgeable enough to claim that it has any.
Comment by Gil S. — March 23, 2011 @ 12:26 am
Aww, Gil, no fair. I thought you said you’d give me the last word. :c
“Remarks like “Shove it” and persistent name-callings are childish.”
:’(
“If you’ve been debating on the internet for as long as I have, you’d realize that the word is meant to connote a person who is self-commited to blind religious irrationalism. This is not a position that I hold so it is a BS label to use.”
Fundamentalist:
1 : a movement in 20th century Protestantism emphasizing the literally interpreted Bible as fundamental to Christian life and teaching b : the beliefs of this movement c : adherence to such beliefs
2 : a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles
These are the definitions I use when I use the word, including the word “fundie”. Or maybe you’re saying that literal biblical interpretation is irrational, in which case we can agree on something!
Sorry, saying that something is “irrational” is not a bigotry, especially when it actually is irrational. Disagreement with one’s religious beliefs isn’t a prejudice or a persecution, and the religious idiots who say otherwise are giant spoiled babies, a*s-deep in their privilege and entitlement.
“However, terms like “may” are only possibilities, not probabilities or actualities.”
Uh, yeah, and in medical science that’s pretty much how it works. Jeeezus Gil, if there was a paper that said cyanide “may” result in your death, does that mean people are exaggerating when they say taking it will kill people?
“It is possible for science to be factually certain.”
Yeah, no s**t, and I never said otherwise. Factually certain is not the same as absolutely certain, ESPECIALLY in medical science, and, yes, that is what you’re asking for.
“All I did was point out how your source sticks to possibilities, not probabilities or actualities.”
Right, Gil. When it’s a claim you don’t like, that’s when you interpret the words to mean “this actually doesn’t happen a lot” even though they’re used all the f****n’ time in scientific reports. I gotcha.
“If I pointed to a study that claimed that Exodus International MIGHT or CAN be beneficial, would that prove that it IN FACT is likely to be beneficial?”
That depends. Would it also say that the benefits outweigh the risks and that it’s medically responsible to apply the therapy or transfer the patience to said therapy? Oh wait, you ignored that part and just paid attention to what you wanted to, because you thought it would be easier to argue against. Sorry, Gil, I actually DID read the study, so you aren’t getting away with that.
“sex-change programs”
Uh, was that a typo or a Freudian slip? Because f**k you.
“Never implied that.”
The hell you didn’t. First you said that a single patient who found benefits trumped the failures (because if it isn’t ALWAYS harmful then what the hell are people complaining about?), and then you said language that wasn’t couched in certainties meant that claims of harm were full of s**t. And now you’re saying that because APA says that research into the harms of ex-gay therapy isn’t very rigorous (because of sample sizes and HOW THE SAMPLES WERE PICKED), this actually means that there isn’t any evidence and that it doesn’t actually hurt anybody. You are an a*s.
“I only said it was MORE COMPLICATED than just pointing to suicide statistics, not that the above has never been the case.”
Yeah, and you said that because you want to ignore the people who came out and ACTUALLY SAID that Exodus DIRECTLY LED to their attempts at suicide, so that you could claim that there’s no evidence that Exodus causes people to kill themselves. Bull. s**t.
“Next thing I know, you’ll claim that I think the moon is made out of cheese and then complain about how I am the greatest moron of all times.”
Nope, sorry. Keep practicing your fortune-telling, though, it’s pretty much skill and luck so you’re bound to get there.
“This is compatible with what you’ve said there.”
That’s a layman’s definition, yeah, which some people get pretty particular about, so I’m trying to make a habit of avoiding it. If no one complains, then all rightie.
“just some reading of the article reveals this”
See, that’s exactly what I figured you were going to do, so I’m just going to say that it helps if you READ THE REST OF THE SENTENCE instead of cherry-picking the part you like:
“Early and recent research studies provide no clear indication of the prevalence of harmful outcomes among people who have undergone efforts to change their sexual orientation or the frequency of occurrence of harm because no study to date of adequate scientific rigor has been explicitly designed to do so. Thus, we cannot conclude how likely it is that harm will occur from SOCE. However, studies from both periods indicate that attempts to change sexual orientation may cause or exacerbate distress and poor mental health in some individuals, including depression and suicidal thoughts. The lack of rigorous research on the safety of SOCE represents a serious concern, as do studies that report perceptions of harm(cf. Lilienfeld, 2007).”
When you actually get down to the meat of the study (and read it with some honesty instead of just finding the words that look pretty to you), you’ll find that despite the lack of studies looking SPECIFICALLY into the harms of the therapy (and that accessible studies tend to have shitty sample sizes with recruitment biases because usually the ministries themselves picked the samples hmm gee), what data they’ve found indicates that there are people who claim benefits and people who claim significant harm, like depression, low sexual arousal, low self worth, suicide, isolation, etc.
And not only does the high drop-out rate in the system potentially indicate harm going on, and not only do the people who claim benefits often admit/acknowledge harm later, those same benefits can be gotten in gay-affirming therapies without the nasty baggage of self-loathing and guilt and hating one’s parents, which means the harm is completely unnecessary.
Add to that the lack of evidence that ex-gay therapy actually works, what you’ve basically got is a giant clusterfuck of pseudoscientific sadomasochism with little gain. Which is why REAL medical doctors who know what the f**k they’re doing and aren’t blinded by their irrational religious convictions say that ex-gay therapy is a crock of s**t.
So thank you, have a nice day, and kiss my a*s.
“If this is a correct reading, then I think I can safely conclude that claims of harm are just blown out of proportion.”
Yeah, f**k you, pal. You go on and keep minimizing and ignoring people’s pain for Jesus, there.
Comment by Makyui — March 23, 2011 @ 1:28 am
LOL Mayyui, this has been fun to read……
I am going to print it out and use it as a teaching aid for the kids I work with.
Gil, keep talking :) its like a written version of the Victoria JAckson interview; Gils half baked defenses, and Makyuis slicing rebuttals are a PERFECT example of why the tide has turned on this issue!
Gil, please, please….I am enjoying you almost as much as the news of the dropping of the app! :) She is not only countering your every point, you are giving any kid who reads this a perfect exampl of why “ex gay” therapy is crap, since Makyui is pointing out, with elegance, and a well deserved “f**k you, pal” the holes in your “science”
:)
Comment by Gene — March 23, 2011 @ 2:24 am
As a matter of fact, I do think a literal dogmatic and blind commitment and reading of the Bible is irrational. For example, Wikipedia describes its common usage on the internet rather accurately: “The term has since been generalized to mean strong adherence to any set of beliefs in the face of criticism or unpopularity”. I cannot support that attitude, hence the reason why I thought that label was inaccurate.
A person may also cause harm but what does that prove? I did not deny the actual “possibility” but I also do not see that as justifying any meaningful conclusion. If scientists use “may” to mean “probably” or “will” (mark of horrible communication skills) then they are using the wrong term but as far as I know, they do not work this way. Say someone jumps off a cliff. No one is going to say “Well… that MIGHT cause harm” because we know that it WILL cause harm. Perhaps they MEANT to say “will” or “probably” but otherwise, we cannot assume that without warrant.
I am NOT asking for absolute evidence and no one claimed that you denied factual certainty.
No, I only asked a question and said that it would show how it is not ALWAYS harmful. Never claimed that you said this, but I wanted to more importantly know if you thought such a person existed.
Wrong again. Never said that it needed to be certain, only that it should be probable or factually certain. Your sources just failed to meet this request.
All I argued was that the evidence was lacking. That does not mean that such evidence cannot be discovered in the future but it shows that you can’t make baseless claims. It could hurt somebody, but is that the norm? Thanks for playing the “I’ll make things up” game.
Wow, I just said that it COULD happen but without proper evidence, it cannot be substantially asserted. LIke I said, correlation does not equal causation. It is possible for someone to incorrectly perceive that another had faulted them. You’re aware of this, right? There are too many variables for this to be as simple as you claim.
*sigh* I figured this would be your response. Unfortunately, what you so kindly put in bold just boldly speaks of your foolish reading skills. This was your mission: Provide GOOD evidence. This is what you did: Well, it MAY cause harm. Like the article had pointed out, Early and recent research studies provide no clear indication of the prevalence of harmful outcomes. How then could they turn around and argue that they’ve found data that clearly shows this to be the case? Well, they don’t. There’s data to suggest that it MAY cause harm but this is different than saying that it clearly DOES (or usually) causes harm. Learn to recognize the difference. If there are such people, the evidence is not clear enough to indicate that SOCE’s are at fault. After all, correlation does not imply causation.
Let’s see how much crack you’ll take in order to make a response. Your “f**k you” comments are entertaining, to say the least.
Comment by Gil S. — March 23, 2011 @ 3:00 am
You lying little piece of s**t. I can’t believe that you pulled that when the quote was posted TWICE, and once by you. You’re not supposed to read half of the sentence, stop at the part that doesn’t interest you anymore, and then ignore the rest.
“Early and recent research studies provide no clear indication of the prevalence of harmful outcomes among people who have undergone efforts to change their sexual orientation or the frequency of occurrence of harm because no study to date of adequate scientific rigor has been explicitly designed to do so.”
They aren’t saying there is no sign of harm, you hogfrenching reprobate. They’re saying that they can’t pin down a specific number because there weren’t any studies at the time that were explicitly designed to measure it. There’s a big f*****g difference. And you completely ignore the rest of the f*****g study so that you can dishonestly continue to trot out this fractured sentence, because clearly that’s all you can do to argue your point. GEE WHIZ I WONDER WHY.
“I am NOT asking for absolute evidence…”
b******t. See “Show me how Exodus is always harmful” and “What if one person benefits?”
“No, I only asked a question and said that it would show how it is not ALWAYS harmful. Never claimed that you said this…”
b******t. You propped it up as our position and then made arguments against it.
“Never said that it needed to be certain, only that it should be probable or factually certain.
b******t, and you contradicted yourself in the same sentence, there, by the way.
God, you are so f*****g blatantly dishonest I can’t even. You trot out horrific logic like you’re so cool, and then every time it’s shown to be wrong you move the goalposts a little bit more and then claim that this was actually your position all along, when your words are all right f*****g here for anyone with half a chromosome to see that you’re lying. What GALL.
“A person may also cause harm but what does that prove?”
It proves that the person causes harm, nitwit.
“I did not deny the actual “possibility” but I also do not see that as justifying any meaningful conclusion.”
No, you said that because they didn’t say the word “must” or “will” that meant claims of harm were “exaggerated”. Because apparently “can” and “may” only means insignificant possibilities (even though they don’t). Of course you don’t think it “justifies any meaningful conclusion”, because you’ve already decided that we’re all just scared of Exodus’s obvious truth, and I highly doubt that any amount of data will be to your satisfaction. I’ve argued the exact same b******t with ilk like you before, and it always goes the same damn way. You’d just keep moving the f*****g goalposts like you have been all day, claiming that it’s not enough. How much is enough, then, Gil? What percentage? How did you come to that conclusion?
“It is possible for someone to incorrectly perceive that another had faulted them. You’re aware of this, right?”
Yeah, clearly, feeling horribly guilty about “falling from grace” and “letting God down” when they get a boner for another hot guy would be caused by the fact that they were late for work last night. Clearly.
“It could hurt somebody, but is that the norm?”
It not only hurts people unnecessarily, it hurts enough people that it’s a stated genuine concern in the medical world. And yes, you idiot, that IS the norm. It’s inherent to the “treatment”. That’s why people hand-picked by the ministries who claim benefits also later admit suffering. That’s why the head of Exodus himself says that it’s a constant shitfest, and why the founders of Exodus have apologized for the harm they caused. Did you know about that one, Gil?
That’s why the doctors are saying it’s crap that should be avoided by responsible and ethical doctors, and pointing to alternative therapies that aren’t harmful. That’s why they’re speaking out in droves against this s**t. That’s why survivors are speaking out about the HARM they endured during their “treatments”. You would see that if you bothered to actually look past your own biases and… well, LOOK.
“If there are such people, the evidence is not clear enough to indicate that SOCE’s are at fault. After all, correlation does not imply causation.”
Yeah, it’s clearly not enough for Gil that people are STATING OUTRIGHT THAT IT’S THE THERAPY THAT MADE THEM WANT TO HURT THEMSELVES. Clearly Gil knows better than they do, because Gil is just that f*****g awesome.
G******n.
“There’s data to suggest that it MAY cause harm but this is different than saying that it clearly DOES (or usually) causes harm.”
Why?
That data DOES show that it clearly causes harm. Unnecessary harm. Which can be avoided by going to gay-affirming therapies. I wonder f*****g why.
Here’s the thing, Gil. The fact that there aren’t scientific studies built specifically for pinning down an exact percentage of harm in the “treatment” is irrelevant to the fact that the docs are finding enough harm in this practice to warrant calling it a needless and harmful practice, and they do so in the f*****g research that you keep cherry-picking. You MORON. The fact that you ignore all that, clinging to meaningless wordgames while ignoring the rest of the data, and pretending that it doesn’t exist just shows what a disgusting, immoral, degenerate, dishonest, irrational a*****e you are.
I’m glad you find my “f**k you”s entertaining, because you deserve every single one. f**k you. f**k you.
f**k yooooooou.
“Not to nitpick but that’s a moral rule.”
Yeah, it’s a moral rule that ethical and legitimate doctors adopt when they become doctors, and it’s one of the expressed reasons why doctors have been standing up against ex-gay “therapies”. Dumbfuck.
“As a matter of fact, I do think a literal dogmatic and blind commitment and reading of the Bible is irrational.”
Good, then there is one thing we can agree on. But yet you call it bigoted hate speech? Oh, right, calling someone irrational when they ARE irrational is totally the same as calling someone a disgusting faggot.
Gene:
Glad you’re getting some enjoyment out of it, because daaaamn. I don’t even know why I’m continuing, because it’s pretty clear that he’s refusing to be reasonable about this, which means anything I say is just going to roll off him. At least some good use is coming out of it. Wish I could say he isn’t typical. “Afraid of the truth” my a*s.
Comment by Makyui — March 23, 2011 @ 6:13 am
Yeah, it’s useful to know when you’re slamming your head against a brick wall.
Comment by Evan Hurst — March 23, 2011 @ 6:24 am
Oh crud, look at that, I forgot to close a bracket. This place really needs a preview button.
Comment by Makyui — March 23, 2011 @ 6:25 am
Watching you throw a tantrum like a mentally challenged monkey is indeed entertaining. Your response is soaked with brutal hatred, frustration, bigotry, logical fallacies and just an overall refusal to read what is being argued. Why can’t you keep cool? Maybe you could release all this anger at some kind of zoo, I am sure they’d accept you for some “Insanely Angry Animal” show. No wait, I think you’re already in one. It’s nice to know that you’re putting up this neat charade for your fellow fans. There are better and less instinctively idiotic means of going about this but if you insist… I’ll just keep this short.
Instead of pointlessly responding point by point, I’ll just summarize my position. First off, I’ll admit that I came off as too strong in my original response and in some respect this “lash” at me is expected. Second, I think I am to blame for some communicative issues since you seem to not be comprehending the point that I want to make. Lastly, I do not believe that someone OUGHT to go to Exodus International. If there’s no evidence to show that it is effective, even if such a potential exists for some, I cannot accept that as a credible argument.
So, what exactly is my beef here? I just do not find the reasoning and the evidence compelling for this kind of a reaction. Like I admitted before, if this organization is truly harmful in general then I am not going to dispute that. Frankly, before this I hardly knew much about the organization but upon coming across this news I decided to do some research and look for clear evidence that it is harmful. I have no loyalty to this organization. Unfortunately I found none but I took this for granted at the beginning. Instead, I should’ve just asked for some evidence and refrained from any criticisms.
I’ll begin by noting that I do not deny that something MAY be dangerous. A house knife could be dangerous and I am sure there are cases where it has. Any person could be harmful at any point in their lives as well. However, this is not the kind of data that I am looking for. I want “scientifically rigorous” papers that demonstrate that it is generally harmful. Like I pointed out before – which you did not reply to – it is also true that homosexual acts can potentially cause death and other sexual diseases. What should we make of this, under your view? That it is generally harmful? I sure hope not. LIke Webster verifies, “Can and may are most frequently interchangeable in senses denoting possibility”. There you have it.
Your arguments are poor precisely because they only address a certain kind of question – namely, CAN a SOCE be harmful? The answer is yes, of course. However, the question I have is what evidence is there to show that it is USUALLY harmful. I am not asking for an argument that shows it to be always harmful. If you cannot provide these scientific studies, which you’ve admitted don’t exist, then I will just need to live with that fact and move on. I demand this precisely because hardcore scientific data is so vital and I love that kind of evidence. Like with anything, however, we need to consider all the variables and keep in mind that correlation does not imply causation.
If this level of evidence cannot be met, then let’s end this discussion. We will not get anywhere with that attitude of yours, though I’m happy to read links that would at least “suggest” or “hint” that it is generally harmful even if they’re not scientific papers. You seem to do that with one of the articles but I will not comment since we’re getting nowhere. I was going to give you the last word and I will still stay true to that. Bring me down to shame with evidence, that’s the best response that you can give. No more of your crap, and just don’t bother responding with “Nuh uh! You said this before but now you’re changing the story!” because quite frankly, you are guaranteed to have misunderstood me and even if it were true, I failed to communicate so let’s get that over with and focus on what I am saying now.
Comment by Gil S. — March 23, 2011 @ 8:08 am
[...] made a terrific business decision,” said Wayne Desen, founder of Truth Wins Out, a non-profit gay-rights organization. “This was an offensive, obscene, [...]
Pingback by Apple Pulls Controversial ‘Gay Cure’ App at NEWS.GeekNerdNetwork.com — March 23, 2011 @ 4:00 pm
LOL Gil, I can’t believe you just responded with Ha Ha You’re So Aaaaangry. Well, actually, that’s a fib, because I saw it coming from the moment you got here. You’re totally free to be shitty and deceitful and belittling from your throne of admitted ignorance, but if someone who has to regularly deal with the b******t you so gleefully pretend isn’t real calls you some foul language, suddenly it’s about civility and grace. Too bad there’s nothing civil about your posts.
It’s tone-trolling b******t, and it’s just one more steaming lump festering on your giant b******t pile.
“Your response is soaked with brutal hatred, frustration, bigotry, logical fallacies and just an overall refusal to read what is being argued.”
There is so much projection here I should rent you for movies, except I’d have to send you back because you’re so out of focus.
“Like I pointed out before – which you did not reply to – it is also true that homosexual acts can potentially cause death and other sexual diseases. What should we make of this, under your view? That it is generally harmful?”
What we do — and I didn’t reply to it because it was even stupider than the rest of your s**t — is we use our brains with honesty and integrity and examine the stuff that lead to that conclusion. Yanno, just like we did with Exodus, and just like what you DIDN’T do when I gave you what you were looking for.
That’s the thing, Gil. You’re lying when you say you’re willing to look at the evidence, because when I gave it to you, you looked at half a sentence and two more words, and then decided the OPPOSITE of what the reports said, without reading the rest of it. Why? Because they fit your preconceived notions. Even though you had to cut the edges to make it fit.
And you’re doubly lying when you said that you’d be willing to look at non-scientific sources, because that’s also what I gave you, repeatedly, and that’s what this site is full of, all over, and you ignore it.
“Generally harmful” and “usually harmful” are such f*****g vague concepts that it both fits what I gave you and can be manipulated to claim that ANY evidence I could give you isn’t good enough. You know this, and that’s why you did it.
Everything else you’ve said is just b******t that I’ve already covered. You’re arrogant. You’re a bigot. You’re an a*****e. You’re a liar. And, by the definition you picked from Wikipedia, you’re a fundie. And you know it. And now, so does everyone else here. If you think that’s being bigoted and hateful, I really don’t give a s**t, because it’s now very clear that your rationale isn’t worth considering.
Why am I so angry? I’m angry because of people like YOU. So f**k. YOU.
Comment by Makyui — March 23, 2011 @ 7:19 pm
Incredible, 100% of that response was just a goldenly concocted amount of bashing, flaming, venting and any other possible manner of misrepresenting my actual position. Fortunately, I never said “You’ve Lost Your Temper So I Don’t Have To Listen To You Anymore” but I do think that your barbaric thoughtlessness speaks for itself. I have already said what needs to be said in my last response but clearly you’re still keen on replacing substance with tantrums as nothing you said refutes my actual position. I’ll look at the non-scientific evidence, but will simply not bother to discuss it with you (as I mentioned in the last paragraph, if you could actually read) which is clearly not the same as “ignoring” it but a case of ignoring YOU.
Go ahead and say “f**k you” a million times if it makes you feel better. My scouter will just continue detecting this but without any power, you couldn’t even challenge a fly. Think I’m being arrogant? Well, if not thinking highly of an angry monkey is arrogant, then I think that’s just something I’ll have to live with. Normally I don’t use satire but in a public setting with a person like yourself, it is a useful device for countering any perceived “victory” through hate speeches and undermining the other’s honor.
Comment by Gil S. — March 23, 2011 @ 8:43 pm
Well, detecting this is more like it.
Comment by Gil S. — March 23, 2011 @ 8:45 pm
Why do wingnuts think anger is a bad thing? It’s so bizarre. It’s like they’ve been trained by their daddies that it’s never okay to say “f**k,” but it’s okay to subjugate entire classes of people.
Hahaha, like their idiot daddies did.
Comment by Evan Hurst — March 23, 2011 @ 8:50 pm
Haha, we’re both monkeys, Gil. Or do you think phylogenetics and evolution are pissed of at da trooth, too? :)
Cry moooore.
Comment by Makyui — March 23, 2011 @ 9:02 pm
Oh, and hahaha, Gil, at what point did you use “satire?” As a humor writer, I’m dying to know.
*headdesk*
Comment by Evan Hurst — March 23, 2011 @ 9:07 pm
One more thing, Gil. I just attempted to read your most recent, wordy blog post, got bored after the first paragraph, skimmed the rest, and then had the brilliant idea that I should dare you to go here and register as a commenter, in order to test out your intellectual theories. Also, please let me know when you are doing this so that I may buy adequate popcorn and other refreshments for the viewing.
Comment by Evan Hurst — March 23, 2011 @ 9:18 pm
He used “satire” just like he used “logic”. Or like a chimp uses a toad.
Comment by Makyui — March 23, 2011 @ 9:18 pm
Oh good lord, Evan, you didn’t. Those people would tear him apart.
Comment by Makyui — March 23, 2011 @ 9:22 pm
I want him to go to there.
:)
Comment by Evan Hurst — March 23, 2011 @ 9:23 pm
Okay, but only if you share the popcorn.
Comment by Makyui — March 23, 2011 @ 9:27 pm
No one said anger in itself is bad but there is a specific kind of anger that I mocked. Can you guess what that is? You’ll win a “Wow! You’re not Completely Stupid After All!” reward and best of all, you can use that to prove your worth in a debate! In all seriousness, you misrepresented me again :D I’m not surprised and then you barely read a paragraph from my blog post and suggest I present my “intellectual theories” to science blogs. I am familiar with that site but unfortunately, science and metaphysics are two different fields. But of course you wouldn’t know that because reading a paragraph is enough to delude yourself into think you do know.
Try again, guys!
Comment by Gil S. — March 23, 2011 @ 9:45 pm
LOL
Oh Gil, your really funny! Seriously, I mean it.
Dont like a fact? you ignore it!
inconvenient quotes of data (real data)? Just use partial ones!
Hours and hours and hours to type (thats assuming you type at only 70 words per minute) yet so damnably little sense of humility or grace…
You insult and degrade a whole class of people, and, almost hilariously, don’t SEEM TO REALIZE IT…and by extension, those who love us, and, you can’t seem to realize why your side is losing the debate.
People like you…are the reason we are winning.
Thank you Gil :)
for helping Makyui sharpen her skills even more (not that they needed it!)
for showing any young person (or older) who was here to learn just what we oppose.
And most importantly…Thank you for helping us, reminding us of the mindset of those who yet oppose freedom, good mental health, and who think prejudice against us is acceptable.
And how whiny they are when they know that they are now the minority
: )
Gil…with a chuckle and a smile on my face I point out that’
The App is GONE, and such things will go the way of blackface, and people who think like you, will be treated as you deserve to be. Dont expect more. Do expect, when you degrade so many people, hurt them, and denigrate their very sense of self by supporting those who see them at damaged, to get an occassional “f**k You”.
In truth, you have earned it.
You have made a better case for us than you realize.
Comment by Gene — March 23, 2011 @ 10:24 pm
Gil thinks we’re all ign’ant dumbasses, and yet he insists on trying to out-snark us. Hm.
“But of course you wouldn’t know that because reading a paragraph is enough to delude yourself into think you do know.”
Yeah… He should’ve stuck with reading half a sentence and two words.
Comment by Makyui — March 23, 2011 @ 10:55 pm
Haha, Gil, those scientists would make mincemeat of you in both fields. It’s fun to watch your brain self-destruct without you even knowing it though. More popcorn for the idiot-watching, plz!
Comment by Evan Hurst — March 24, 2011 @ 12:44 am
[...] objectionable content? We beg to differ,” wrote TruthWinsOut.com. “Exodus’ message is hateful and [...]
Pingback by Apple Under Fire For Approving ‘Gay Cure’ iPhone App | Blog Of The Year — March 24, 2011 @ 2:06 am
Feels as if I am talking to clones. Evan, in other words, you’re incapable of responding to me and need to boast that your superhero could beat me. P.Z Myers is pathetic at philosophy, I’d rather stick to someone like Antony Flew, Quentin Smith, and other atheistic philosophers who could make a real case against me. Expand your horizons instead of sticking to ignorant, hateful, cheese cake atheistic blogs.
Comment by Gil S. — March 24, 2011 @ 3:03 am
Nah, I work here and I don’t have time for your boring crap. That’s all. I only engage with smart commenters, even if they disagree. You’re a wingnut whose Mama probably filled his head with delusions of grandeur about his intelligence, but everyone following the comment thread thinks you’re an idiot.
Comment by Evan Hurst — March 24, 2011 @ 4:18 am
Oh, and also, you’re obviously afraid of being ripped apart by PZ’s commenters, which is where I asked you to go. There. Away from here. You obviously have a pathological need to argue with people, so go there. And again, please let us know which threads you’re engaging in, because people will want to check up on them, for laughing purposes.
Comment by Evan Hurst — March 24, 2011 @ 4:19 am
Yeah we get it, Gil, you’re a tone troll. Harsh words hurt your feelings and make you cry.
Comment by Makyui — March 24, 2011 @ 4:21 am
[...] made a terrific business decision,” said Wayne Desen, founder of Truth Wins Out, a non-profit gay-rights organization. “This was an offensive, obscene, [...]
Pingback by Apple’s Most Contriversal App! | Olympia Connections — March 24, 2011 @ 10:09 am
“Exodus’ message is hateful and bigoted.” This statement itself is a a hateful and bigoted statment. Why the hypocrasy, I thought we were supposed to be an open society of mutual respect, this needs to flow both ways to make your argument legitimate.
Comment by Mark — March 25, 2011 @ 3:52 pm
No Mark, “Exodus’ message is hateful and bigoted” is a statement based on actual, verifiable facts. I know that Exodus people don’t believe in things that are actually provable but in the real world truth can actually carry weight.
Comment by Daniel — March 25, 2011 @ 4:01 pm
Mark, by the way, are you and Tom the same person?
Comment by Daniel — March 25, 2011 @ 4:02 pm
No
Comment by Mark — March 25, 2011 @ 4:14 pm
Daniel, actual facts based on your interpretation and point of view, I thought that is what we are free to express?
Comment by Mark — March 25, 2011 @ 4:15 pm
Who defines hateful and bigoted, what I find hateful you might not even find offenseive, case in point I find it offensive that someone would label a group hateful and bigoted which seeks to help people leave a behavior they themselves desire to leave.
Comment by Mark — March 25, 2011 @ 4:18 pm
No, @Mark, it’s not a point of view. It is a fact that their message is hateful toward LGBT people.
Comment by Evan Hurst — March 25, 2011 @ 4:28 pm
Mark, what Evan said.
Comment by Daniel — March 25, 2011 @ 4:32 pm
By who’s definition Daniel? What facts do you have to back up your claim? I mean I could say that Exodus is the most loving minsitry on earth (I would not say this though)but my saying it does not make it so.
Comment by Mark — March 25, 2011 @ 4:33 pm
“what I find hateful you might not even find offenseive, case in point I find it offensive that someone would label a group hateful and bigoted which seeks to help people leave a behavior they themselves desire to leave.”
All that would be fine if they could actually help a person not be gay. but their own research shows that they can’t. you really ought to take a look at Jones and yarhouse.
All of that would be fine if not being gay was not just obstaining from a particular behaviour, but obstaining from a whole aspect of one’s personality that is evry bit as much an integral part of it for a gay person as heterosexuality is for a straight person. but it’s not. you really ought to look at alan chambers.
All of that would be fine if their motivations were clearly not anti gay. But they are. “Broken and sinful” without the slightest bit of evidence of the first, and a matter of opinion on the second. But they continually slander gay people with things that are just not true. The criminal justice system was also used to express anti-gay bigotry– you could be put in jail for 25 years in virginia as a dangerous sexual psychopath, but murder would only get you 15. Also, the psychiatric business did it for quite a while. All have since recanted, probably under threat of doom form the International Gay Mafia and Interior Design society.
all of that would be fine if Exodus weren’t in bed with the most virulent antigay people and groups who are, without the slightest bit of doubt, homohaters and liars of the first order.
And it owuld all be ifne if groups like Exodus were not reponsible for ocntirbuting ot the very world wherein people decide that being gay is just the worst thing.
Comment by Ben in Oakland — March 25, 2011 @ 4:38 pm
Yarhouse does not say that someone cannot be changed. I have read it.
Comment by Mark — March 25, 2011 @ 4:42 pm
In fact Yarhouse critisezes people who make such claims.
Comment by Mark — March 25, 2011 @ 4:43 pm
Yarhouse said that 15% (more or less) experienced change (very loosely defined) that was ambiguous, complicated, and difficult.
All of the striahgt people and the gay people i kmnow would hardly describe being gay or being straight as ambiguous, complicated, or difficult.
That only seems to be applicable to people who wanna-be-straight-but-ain’t.
Comment by Ben in Oakland — March 25, 2011 @ 4:48 pm
Sure, it is ambigious, complicated and difficult for some, but then thats the nature of change in many circumstances.
Where do you get the 15%, I see on page 135 33%?
Comment by Mark — March 25, 2011 @ 4:52 pm
Mark, want to know why I don’t believe you’ve read? All your arguments have been covered on this site–many of them even in this thread. If you really want a conversation or information at least take the time to see what’s come before.
Comment by Daniel — March 25, 2011 @ 5:23 pm
If change is defined as not changed, then I suppose you are right. but if there is no demarcator, than how can they say that change is possible– especially by ex-gay methods.
Without even going to your citation, I know they also claimed that people who were experiencing some slight heterosexual interest were “changing”, and the anti-gay groups included people who claimed they were celibate as people who had changed. not the same thing.
the whole problem with the idea of changing is this. I used to be gay but now i’m straight really means I was always bisexual, but the gay part really bothered me.
I’m a thorough going, 100% big fag. I had heterosexual sex a few times, and according to the woman, made her quite the envy of her woman friends. I would never claim that made me even remotely bisexual.
I don’t deny that change is possible. in a world where carpenters can be resurrected, anything is possible. But they are going ot have
Comment by Ben in Oakland — March 25, 2011 @ 6:05 pm
Sorry, I posted before I was finished.
They are going to have to come up with something better than complicated, ambiguous, and difficult.
Comment by Ben in Oakland — March 25, 2011 @ 6:07 pm
BTW, the actual figure is not 15%, but 13%. I was being very kind. One of their “Now I’m really straight” people admitted that he had lied.
Comment by Ben in Oakland — March 25, 2011 @ 6:08 pm
Now it seems to me that all of those who have responded to me have been prejudicial. I have made too claims netiehr of which makes me anti-gay in the least. I said in essence I think free speach is important and that change is possible. You gave a statisitc or two and I gave one supposedly from the same source (Yarhouse). I see zero shred of evidence that change is not possbile and some evidience that it is. Do you need to be able to say that change is not possible for anyone to say the being and acting as a homo-sexual is ok, I am not sure I follow that logic.
Comment by Mark — March 26, 2011 @ 11:11 am
Daniel, are you saying that all arguments must be unique to be valuable? I would hope that discussion here could be two or more people hearing each other with an open mind, perhaps I dont do this as well as I should but I am trying.
Comment by Mark — March 26, 2011 @ 11:15 am
Yes, Mark, change of sexual orientation is possible in the sense that it sometimes happens – in both directions. It happens in a very small number of males and in a rather larger number of females. There is no means of MAKING it happen; either it will or it won’t. It’s a bit like winning the lottery: either you will win it or you won’t, but you can be pretty sure that you won’t.
Exodus is an organization that tells gay people that their natural sexuality is a form of “sexual brokenness”, which it isn’t, and that Exodus can help them to change it, which it can’t. Exodus have the right to peddle this kind of trash, but no-one, including a private company like Apple, is obliged to help them in doing so. Those who signed the petition told Apple why it was best NOT to help them, and Apple, having presumably weighed the matter up, concurred and pulled the app. No-one’s freedom of speech has thereby been curtailed.
Comment by William — March 26, 2011 @ 11:53 am
we have seen the damage that attempts (always failures) at “change” cause. We hold the “successful” examples of “change” as they cry on our shoulders and confess their guilt for what they have dont to the women they have married in an attempt to prove they have “changed”. We nearly burst with frustration when they tell us they have to keep up the charade so that their families will continue to love and care for them (can you IMAGEINE how hard it must be to think “if I am honest, dad will think I am a…pervert”?) and we know that, and I am speaking as a Christian and an ordained Elder, that such therapy ONLY leads to pain, misery, and provides bigots (we need to be honest and forthright and use that, the appropriate word more) an excuse to say “they could change if they really wanted to…so their families do not deserve legal rights” and nothing more.
I have seen the damage, destruction and misery such evil groups as Exodus causes Mark.
Your words and theories mean nothing. I have SEEN the real world destruction they cause. What you “believe” means..well, squat.
Sorry to burst your bubble…but, you do not have a logical, factual, or ethical leg to stand on here.
Comment by Gene — March 26, 2011 @ 11:59 am
William, I appreciate your thoughts on Apple as a private company and how that effects the discussion on speach, I think that this is something to think about.
Gene, all I hear from you is angry rhetoic, lacking in facts outside of some poples experience. I dont deny your experience I simply say that there are people who have had other experience. I will state again, people do change, and people do change in part as a reult of therapy. Yes, they can change both ways, not everyone but some certainly can thats a fact. That is not say that every GLBT should seek to change thats another matter altogether.
If I do not have a leg to stand on here does that mean I am not welcomed here? I mean really, I have no ethical lef to stand on? As if you have a better one?
Comment by Mark — March 26, 2011 @ 2:21 pm
Gil said “it is also true that homosexual acts can potentially cause death and other sexual diseases.”.
Not in a monogamous relationship – same sex sex is perfectly safe in that situation just like heteroesexual sex. It is also true that heteroesexual acts can potentially cause death and sexual diseases if they involve multiple partners. That you would make such a statement about same sex sex while failing to note the same is true of heterosexual sex proves you are a bigot and a hater.
Gil said “I never said “You’ve Lost Your Temper So I Don’t Have To Listen To You Anymore”.
Not in those specific words, but you did say it in different phraseology when you said “I have already said what needs to be said in my last response but clearly you’re still keen on replacing substance with tantrums as nothing you said refutes my actual position.”.
You didn’t address Makyui’s response, you just falsely claimed he hadn’t refuted you and suggested he had only offered tantrums so you don’t have to respond.
The study by Shidlo and Schoeder found that most participants were harmed by the process.
Mark said “I find it offensive that someone would label a group hateful and bigoted which seeks to help people leave a behavior they themselves desire to leave.”.
Those people only want to “leave a behavior” because groups like Exodus have convinced them they are “broken”, “not living god’s best”, and are “tools of satan”. Exodus is accurately described as hateful and bigoted and for you to claim that accurate description is itself hateful and bigoted is simply ignorant or willfully stupid.
Comment by Priya Lynn — March 26, 2011 @ 3:05 pm
Priya, So you know the motives of all the people who have gone to Exodus, thats what your argument seems to presume and what it stands on. Some of them go out of fear of God perhaps and you judge that to be ignorant or worng, on what basis do you judge their interpretation of their own faith? Is every desrtie in us legitiamte because it is in us?
Comment by Mark — March 26, 2011 @ 3:29 pm
Mark, I can only think you are being deliberately obtuse.
Exodus says change is possible. Jones and yarhouse’s study was quite clear in its failure of methodology as well as its failure to prove what it set out to.
It may be possible for a small number of people to change, if by change we mean not really changed, but trying really hard to change. when it is quite clear– a la Empress alan– that no one changes by Exodus’s methods, and it is quite clear by J&Y that the best that can be hoped for after years of “therapy” is “ambiguous, difficult, complicated”, then maybe we can conclude that apart from wishful thinking, change does not occur.
I notice that you never really answered what I had to say in #149, 155, 156, 157. you should.
I never said that change is not possible, and one cannot prove a negative. What I can say is that change does not appear to be possible by Exodus methods, and the failure of the best study on the subject to show change in any meaningful form is a good indication that this is so.
Change may well be possible, but as far as I can tell, those who have changed were bisexual to begin with– pretty much by definition.
Here’s a portion of something I wrote to someone else here a week or so ago. Never heard back from him, not that I expected to. If he really confronted his obvious issues, it would be very difficult for him. Better the devil you know than the devil you don’t.
“you don’t know much about Exodus, or you would know that its messages change according to its audience. It has an abysmal failure rate, and peddles the only therapy in the world where it is the patient’s fault if it doesn’t work, not the doctor’s. It is allied with the anti-ex-gay industry– and it is an industry– that accrues billions in wealth and power by demonizing and lying about people just like you. Remember the money changers in the temple? If they truly had holiness on their side, they wouldn’t need the lies and the demonization.
Finally, you don’t know much about yourself. If you did, you would know that your self-hatred is your problem, and always has been, not your homosexuality. I don’t even know you, and I know that, beacuase I have never yet seen anyone in your position for whom that is not true. Exodus makes money off of that self hatred, and you pay whether they succeed or they don’t. Deal with your self hatred, and you will finally be able to decide whether you are gay or straight, and make your decisions accordingly.
Here’s how I know that. I’m a very attractive 60 year old man, married to a very attractive 50 year old man, living in a major gay area. I get approached all the time by men for, shall we say, fornication. Many are considerably younger than I am. I have no problem saying no, because i like myself, love my husband, love my marriage. The temptation is certainly there, but I can, as you put it, walk away from homosexual behavior.
Why can’t you? I put it to you that the difference is self-hatred.
Many of the people that write here have been where you are– some for decades. They came out the other side and saw what a massive fraud this is: “holiness” built out of fear, hatred, ignorance, stupidity, bad translations, political power, money-grubbing, and a unshaklable belief in a wholly (or holy) imaginary superiority.
It’s just plain old prejudice, given a thin veneer of respectablity because it is disguised as sincere religious belief. it has been going on for thousands of years, like the prejudice against women– also justified by conservative religion as normal, natural, and god’s will–and its hoary age does not make it right.
There is NOTHING good or righteous about it. alan chambers admits he is as queer as ever he was. You have no way of knowing how far that goes, and his ability to earn a pretty good living depends on you NOT knowing.
Listen to the people who write here. they know what they are talking about. What you hear, no matter what the tone, is only rarely hatred. What you hear is anger, becuase people like you keep falling for the fraud, lives are damaged, love is lost, pain is increased. The anger is not at you, it’s at the anti-ex-gay industry, and the lies and hatred upon which it is founded.
These are one real questions for me about you. Why are YOU so heavily invested in it? How long have you been doing ex-gay therapy? How much have you changed?
Comment by Ben in Oakland — March 26, 2011 @ 4:15 pm
Mark, if they have ONE, uno, 1, a single solitary person who could be shown to have “chagned”, and whose story could not easily be poked to pieces “well…I still fantasize about me”…”well..success for me is living alone” “Oh, I am 100% Straight!” (only the photogaphed in a gay bar soon afterwards…etc.
That person would be PLASTERED on every right wing rag, website and newsfeed in the country. But they are not….because they don’t exist.
I am not writing from anger…but from frustration at your just NOT listening, and speaking about that which you dont know, to people who have lived with it all our lives.
THINK
Comment by Gene — March 26, 2011 @ 4:36 pm
Another thing to think about mark.
Exodus has claimed to cure 1000′s, if not hundred of thousands, of gay people. Perhaps someone else could find the citation. Were this true, they would have access to at least 10′s of thousands of highly motivated people who could easily demonstrate the efficacy of exodus methods.
And yet J&Y could only come up with 100 people for their study. Exodus has been around for 30 years or so. Even with just 10,000 convertees, that would average to 300 a year that one could expect in exodus studies. They only found 100.
Does that make you wonder even just a little?
you may wish desperately and deeply that they are going to change you. Only you can change you. even Jesus can’t or won’t if you are not yourself willing.
You would do better to find out why you don’t like yourself very much. you would do far better to find a grown up church.
Comment by Ben in Oakland — March 26, 2011 @ 5:16 pm
Priya Lynn,
Does ANYONE know how to ACTUALLY read here? It was a reductio ad absurdum. Look that up.
I did listen and for a while I responded but because there was no actual substance to the arguments, I declared what I saw to be the case. The argument was NOT “If a person is angry, then happily ignore them” but if a person is REPLACING substance with tantrums then it ought to be ignored and recognized as not refuting anything.
I am not surprised you think this way. You have both refused to read what I have actually said. My concluding response was intended to correct these misreadings but it is next to impossible to correct. You’ll always see what you’d LIKE to see, because well, anyone who challenges the evidence is clearly a bigot.
Comment by Gil S. — March 26, 2011 @ 6:10 pm
Several of you keep quoting Jones and Yarhouse but wont quite a page #1, makes we wonder if you have read it, I have.
Comment by Mark — March 27, 2011 @ 5:07 pm
And mark, you’re not answering a lot of questions either.
I did slog through J&Y. they failed to make their case. Here is why.
I tried to say this to you another way, but apparently, it didn’t make an impression. so try this.
If your heterosexuality is always difficult, complicated and ambiguous, maybe you’re not actually heterosexual.
If you say “I am heterosexual”, but your attractions are down on their knees in the mensroom at the Kwikeemart, maybe you’re not actually heterosexual.
If you are AC and say your are living a heterosexual lifestyle, and every day is a struggle to deny yourself, you have no more idea of what being heterosexual is than you have of what being homosexual is.
Comment by Ben in Oakland — March 27, 2011 @ 5:35 pm
Ben,
Again where in Yarhouse do you get your conclusion from because they certainly got a different conclusion than the three words that keep getting posted with are an incomplete look at the research they talk about. You
Also, the reason I am not answering a lot of question us because few real questions have been asked, instead I continue receive harsh statments which presume I am ignorant on the topic. While I admitt I have ignorance, I would contest that we all have ignorance.
Comment by Mark — March 27, 2011 @ 6:37 pm
Mark, it seems that you have a personal vested interest in “change,” and you seem to be clinging to the hope that the potential for change is within the realm of reasonable possibility. If you would stop rejecting the evidence, I think you would have to conclude that change is a pipe-dream, and that the promoters of change are selling a myth, in part, to help bolster the choices they have made to continue the struggle. Shouldn’t the fact that the president of Exodus hasn’t changed his sexual orientation be telling you something?
Just stop torturing yourself. There is simply nothing wrong with being gay. The only thing wrong is the world around you that wants you to feel bad about yourself.
Comment by Richard Rush — March 27, 2011 @ 8:42 pm
Obviously people are either born Gay or Normal,no one “chooses” to be Gay. I feel very sorry for anyone who was born gay,it must be horrible! But it’s a waste of time to try and “cure”them,they are forced to live out thier lives that way!
Comment by Todd McKinney — July 12, 2011 @ 7:50 pm
There is an extreme double-standard in terms of what Apple allows and disallows. Objectionable or anti-semetic content seems to be interpreted by Apple as who has a greater market share in their stock value. Offending Jews is one thing, however offending any others, for instance the gay population is a balancing act of which demographic percentage of their share price to accommodate. Fundie nuts who make these apps (and others, ie a game where you shoot Muslims; a petition is floating around to have that removed as well) would create a ban on Apple in response. Thus Apple has to decide on the lesser of the evils.
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