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Truth Wins Out joined local Boston GLBT advocates to demonstrate against Exodus International, which hosted a training seminar on Tuesday to teach people to “pray away the gay.” The protest was held at the site of the “ex-gay” symposium – the Park St. Church.
“We thank Join the Impact MA for coordinating an effective response to the damaging misinformation Exodus International peddles to vulnerable people,” said TWO Executive Director Wayne Besen. “Speaking up and educating the public is the first step in exposing the ex-gay myth. I was honored to be part of this bold action.”
The protest, at one point, moved to the burial grounds of some of America’s Founding Fathers, which was next to the church where the seminar was held. The radical, anti-gay organization, Massachusetts Family Institute (FMI) filmed a poorly shot video of the protest. Interestingly, their own video shows that protesters had not “desecrated” the graveyard, as they had stated in a press release.
“It is amazing that people who claim to represent ethics and morality would not only lie – but capture their dishonesty on videotape,” said Besen. “What the Massachusetts Family did was reprehensible and they should be ashamed of their blatant lies.”
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Speakers at the protest included: Arline Isaacson of The Massachusetts Gay and Lesbian Political Caucus, Stewart Landers, Scott Gortikov of MassEquality, Tom Lang of KnowThyNeighbor.org, Paul Sousa of Join the Impact MA, and keynote speaker Wayne Besen, founder of TruthWinsOut.org. Co-sponsors include MassEquality, the Mass G/L Political Caucus, the Anti-Violence Project, Know Thy Neighbor, CourtingEquality.com, and LBGT@MIT.
Wayne said, “It is amazing that people who claim to represent ethics and morality would not only lie – but put out a videotape that rebuts their misleading claims. What the Massachusetts Family did was reprehensible (and dumb) and they should be ashamed of themselves.”
This is EXACTLY what the late Jerry Falwell did in my lawsuit against him. He vehemently denied making derogatory statements about the Metropolitan Community Churches and then in court produced a video tape of his Old Time Gospel Hour of him making the statements.
Wayne is right! These people shouuld be ashamed of themselves BUT they have NO shame!
It is more than sad that pro-homosexuals will dehumanize people who make a decision to leave their homosesxual lifestyle. It is disgraceful. A movement that is supposed to preach tolerance and anti-hate are full of the most intolerant and most hateful people.
N Waff, What lifestyle people choose to adopt or to leave is up to them, but letting people know that the ex-gay cults won’t change their sexual orientation isn’t dehumanizing them, nor is it being intolerant or hateful. It’s doing something that the ex-gay cults themselves preach but all too often fail to practise: “speaking the truth in love.”
N Waff, there is no such thing as a homosexual lifestyle. It is “disgraceful” that people claim to leave something that does not exist. It is disgraceful that ex-gay and anti-gay opponents of mutual tolerance reject all criticism of them, as if criticism were the same as intolerance.
Ex-gay activists who promote murder in Jamaica and Uganda, and who promote prejudice and damnation in America, project their own hatred onto others.
Remove the plank from thine own eye, N, before you criticize the speck in others’ eyes.
I am one who has personally known men and women who were formally living an active homosexual life and are no longer, but instead living happily within their heterosexuality with no compulsion to return to their former homosexuality.
There was a day when whites dehumanized and hated blacks. Yes, there is dehumanization and hated towards homosexuals, which is wrong, but these kinds of “hate the ex-gay” protests only demonostrate that homosexual groups which claim to promote tolerance and ending hate are hypocritcal when it comes to their treatment of ex-gays.
N Waff says: “I am one who has personally known men and women who were formally living an active homosexual life and are no longer, but instead living happily within their heterosexuality with no compulsion to return to their former homosexuality.”
Reply: How many so-called “ex-gay” leaders have to “fall” before you admit that it is consumer fraud and a hoax? Either you are not paying attention or choosing to ignore the facts. After so many embarrassing “falls” those who support your point of view have little or no credibility.
The ex-gay thing is a big myth, pushed by anti-gay organizations to pass anti-gay laws. A mountain of evidence supports this, as well as the testimony of survivors.
It is time you look at this issue objectively, instead of projecting paranoia and propaganda.
I believe that there really are some genuine ex-gays, in the sense of people whose sexual orientation has changed from homosexual to heterosexual (just as there are some people whose orientation has changed in the opposite direction). Note that I say “whose sexual orientation has changed”, not “who have changed their sexual orientation”, because there’ no credible evidence that it’ possible to engineer such a change. People who deliberately try to change their orientation — even, as they hope, with God’ help — can keep on trying till the cows come home.
These genuine ex-gays, especially male ones, are few and far between; they don’t feel the need to make a nuisance of themselves nagging other gays to try and change too; they don’t set up “ex-gay ministries”; and they don’t go campaigning against the human and civil rights of gays on the grounds that “people can change”.
Ex-gays of the John Paulk variety don’t count as genuine. Here are John Paulk’ words verbatim on a documentary entitled “The Sex Converters” which was broadcast on Carlton TV here in the UK:
“For the last several years of my life I’ve dedicated myself to helping people come out of homosexuality just like I did. … I am comfortable with who I am: I am a heterosexual and I have a very good relationship with my wife, and I have no desire to go back to homosexuality.”
That documentary programme was made in 1995. Five years later where did Wayne Besen find him? In a gay bar in Washington, trying to pick up one of Wayne’ friends.
The above videos don’t show “hate the ex-gay” protests; they show “hate the fraud” protests.
Personally I see TruthWinsOut this way. People want to stop smoking, drinking, overeating, etc. and we don’t condemn them if their efforts fail. But if people dislike their homosexuality and want to stop, TruthWinsOut will condemn them and claim the entire notion of people returning to heterosexuality is a sham. It’s not a sham because people have been successful (and I’ve known several personnally). But it appears that organizations like TruthWinsOut want to eliminate the choice.
This is why the American Psychological Association had recently acknowledged that individual have the right to choose reparative therapies to restore their heterosexuality and that there is no evidence that individuals remain homosexual their entires life.
And, from a Christian perspective, you’re adding a supernatural element that you can’t explain with a secular view. A similar example would be the complete life transformation of Brian “Head” Welch http://www.iamsecond.com/#/seconds/Brian_Welch/
…except that overeating, smoking, and drinking (to excess) are all things that are detrimental to your health and affect your life in negative ways.
Anybody who claims that being attracted to the same sex inherently does those things to one’s self probably has issues that go WAY beyond their sexuality.
Homosexuality is not a disease and it is not inherently unhealthy. In fact, lesbians have the lowest rate of STDs and the highest rate of monogamy.
N Waff, I can’t speak on behalf of Truth Wins Out, but I’d like to try and unpack your latest statement. It won’t be easy, because what you say is such a mishmash of misconceptions and misstatements, but I’ll give it a go.
“People want to stop smoking, drinking, overeating, etc. and we don’t condemn them if their efforts fail.”
The comparison between smoking, drinking, overeating etc. and homosexuality is absurd. Smoking, drinking and overeating are things that you DO. Homosexuality isn’t something that you do. It refers to your sexual orientation — to the gender of the people to whom you are sexually attracted. Yes, what you do sexually is likely to be the outcome of your sexual orientation, but the orientation itself isn’t something that you do. If you’re heterosexual and you decide (for whatever reason) never to have sex again, you’ll still be heterosexual. If you’re homosexual and you decide never to have sex again, you’ll still be homosexual.
“But if people dislike their homosexuality and want to stop, TruthWinsOut will condemn them and claim the entire notion of people returning to heterosexuality is a sham.”
I don’t see any more reason than you do to condemn people for disliking their homosexuality; on the contrary, many of us would sympathize with them, because we’ve been there ourselves and know how long and difficult the journey to a healthy self-acceptance can be. As the late Dominican Fr Gareth Moore wrote, “it takes courage and a lot of belief in yourself to be happy when you are told, or it is intimated to you constantly, that you are an outsider, defective, perverted, laughable, or a sufferer from a condition.”
As for wanting to stop, stop what exactly? If they want to stop having sex, that’ up to them, although no-one should ever be bullied (psychologically, morally or otherwise) into making such a decision.
If they want to stop BEING homosexual, that’ not a realistic goal. (And people can’t “return to” heterosexuality if they were never heterosexual in the first place.) A realistic goal would be for them to accept and come to terms with their homosexuality.
What IS worthy of condemnation is not that a person should fail to attain a goal which is for all practical purposes unattainable, but that a person should advertise himself to the world as having succeeded in changing his sexual orientation when he hasn’t, and that he should urge others to set out on the same long and demoralizing wild-goose chase.
“It’ not a sham because people have been successful (and I’ve known several personnally). But it appears that organizations like TruthWinsOut want to eliminate the choice.”
What have these people whom you’ve know personnally [sic] been successful in doing? In refraining from having sex? If so, that doesn’t mean that their orientation has changed, as I’ve already pointed out. In living their lives as though they were heterosexual? Again, that doesn’t mean that their orientation has changed, as the case of John Paulk demonstrates.
As for wanting to eliminate a choice, you can’t eliminate a choice that doesn’t exist. In those very few cases where a person’ sexual orientation has genuinely changed, they haven’t chosen to change it; it just happened. And the notion of MAKING it happen by means of “reparative therapy” or “ex-gay ministry” IS a sham.
“This is why the American Psychological Association had recently acknowledged that individual have the right to choose reparative therapies to restore their heterosexuality….”
I don’t think that those are the exact terms used by the American Psychological Association. But yes, leaving aside the fact that, once again, you can’t restore something that you’ve never had, anyone certainly has a perfect right to choose reparative therapy, just as anyone has the right to choose astrology, psychic surgery, past life regression, dianetics, pyramid therapy or any other of the myriad forms of flim-flam that are on offer. We’re not trying to eliminate their choice if we point out that those things ARE flim-flam — even if those who practise them do often themselves believe in what they’re doing.
I appreciate the dialog. I will say this. I have known men and women who were once active homosexuals, who are now married to a spouse of the opposite sex and, to the best of anyone’s perception and their own testimony, are sincerely enjoying a heterosexual relationship. Not refraining from sex. Not pretending. But enjoying their own heterosexuality.
When you use phrases such as “a goal which is for all practical purposes unattainable,” “living their lives as though they were heterosexual,” “that doesn’t mean that their orientation has changed” or “you can’t eliminate a choice that doesn’t exist” says that you do not understand the lives these people are actually living. Phrases such as these denies the existence of very real people. I think, when there’s an Exodus seminar or anything like it, just leave it alone. Standing in the cemetery next to the church with bullhorns and making loud, disruptive noises is just wrong.
Thanks for the dialog.
N Waff, you say “active homosexuals”. This indicates that you believe that homosexuality is not an orientation, but just an act.
Homosexuality is just as much about sex than heterosexuality. Sex is only a part of it. Now, the reason I bring this up is because it seems so stupid how people say they were gay, but now straight. Were they even gay to begin with? I’ve met “ex gays” who start their story out like, “when I was 14, I was molested and brought into the gay lifestyle…” then at the end, “I’m now heterosexual….”
Well the consensus of mainstream psychologists is that homosexuality is not just about sex. See I knew I had feelings for other boys before I even knew what gay was. I was never molested, and I did not have an absent father. I tried “ex gay” therapy and it didn’t work for me.
It’s strange that the only people it DID seem to work for were ones where it was questionable they were even gay to begin with. Starting a story, “I was straight, but as a teen, I got pulled into the gay lifestyle….” kinda shows that they ARE heterosexual and were all along, but because of society’s mythological thinking that homosexuality is about sex, they thought they were gay. They weren’t.
So in my experience, no one is “ex gay”. They were either never gay to begin with and thought they were, or they are gay, but forced back in the closet.
“Ex gay” therapy does not work 99.9% of the time. That’s not successful and you have no right saying that because it “worked” for a select few, that it could work for everyone. Shameful thing to say since numerous participants in “ex gay” therapy have resorted to self-destructive behaviors and even suicide because it didn’t work.
Also N Waff,
Homosexuality is not like smoking, or drinking. Homosexuality is not a behavior. It is a sexual orientation. It’s not an addiction. People do not choose to be attracted to the sex they are. Yes they may have the choice to resist and not “act out” on them, but why should they have to be unhappy to please society?
The American Psychological Association recognizes that homosexuality is not a behavior anymore than heterosexuality is. It’s NOT just about sex anymore than heterosexuality is. The APA also does not condone “ex gay” therapy. They may respect someone’s wish if they WANT to engage in “ex gay” therapy but they will warn about the harm that can occur from participating in such therapy. It’s a free country, and if a homosexual wants to go into “ex gay” therapy, then they should, but they at least have a right to be warned about the potential harm.
But like I said in my other post, it doesn’t work for most people, it didn’t work for me. If a gay person says it worked for them, then go them. But I should have to keep wasting my money and time trying to become heterosexual when it hasn’t worked in the past no matter how hard I try.
The ONLY thing that worked for me is to accept myself as gay.
But seriously, N Waff. Why are you here?
Why don’t you just go live your happy straight “lifestyle” and leave us alone?
If you are SO confident that what you’re saying is correct, that homosexuality is abnormal and that people are miserable when they’re homosexual, then why not just sit around and wait for US to come to you?
If what you are saying is correct that people who are homosexual are miserable, then eventually we’ll all want to become “ex gay” and we’ll seek the “ex gay” ministries ourself.
Now that’s IF you’re telling the truth. You know you’re not and you’re just trying to make life miserable for us, and that’s why you’re here.
Has anyone ever noticed that while the RRRW insists that we recruit, it is actually they who recruit? We’re not the ones soliciting people to join us and ‘turn gay’. However they actively solicit people to join them and (ostensibly) ‘turn straight’ via programs like Exodus International.
Things that make you go hmmmm……
James, The decision to go to an Exodus should be up to the individual with freedom and a right to choose. Your examples of those “brought into the gay lifestyle” seems like a great reason to have an Exodus, to benefit those people. But I can see the dialog is coming to an end.
N Waff, I really don’t think that anyone commenting on here is disputing people’ right to change their sexual orientation.
The question is not whether they have the RIGHT to change their sexual orientation, but whether they CAN change it. I would have a perfect right to change the colour of my eyes if — for some peculiar reason — I didn’t like it. The problem would be that I couldn’t, so my right to do so, no matter how inalienable in theory, would in practice be quite meaningless.
Even if we concede that a change of orientation is not absolutely impossible, the question still arises, how likely is it? I put ¬£1 on the National Lottery every weekend, and I have the right to do that, even if many people would say that it’ a waste of a quid, but I also have the right to know — as indeed I do know — that the chances of my ever winning the jackpot are minute. Similarly, someone seeking a change in his or her sexual orientation has the right to know that such a change is unlikely in the extreme.
Neither do I think that anyone on here is disputing people’ right to attend an Exodus (or other “ex-gay”) programme. What is in dispute is Exodus’ right to make misleading claims. Alan Chambers has said at various times that thousands, tens of thousands, and even hundreds of thousands of people have succeeded in “finding freedom” from homosexuality. (The number seems to expand and contract, presumably in proportion to what he gauges as the credulity capacity of his audience at any given time.) But Jones and Yarhouse, after searching diligently for more than a year with the co-operation of the ex-gay ministries, could find fewer than 100 even POSSIBLES, and the number of ACTUAL “success” cases was finally reduced to 10. Even the heterosexuality that those ten had “achieved” didn’t sound like quite the real thing. (See Michael Airhart’ review of their study on amazon.com.)
Back in the autumn of 2007, when “Ex-Gays?: A Continuing Study of Religiously Mediated Sexual Orientation Change in Exodus Participants” by Jones and Yarhouse was published, Wayne commented:
“If Exodus told clients on day one that they had a 15% chance of changing (and I doubt that) — and a 1/3 chance of becoming asexual, even though they were healthy — they would not stay in business very long.”
I fully agree with Wayne’ statement, but I would expand or amend it slightly to read as follows:
“If Exodus told clients on day one that they had a 15% chance of changing to a heterosexual orientation that would not be “unequivocal and uncomplicated’, but nonetheless of becoming “heterosexual in some meaningful but complicated sense of the term’ [which is how Jones and Yarhouse are quoted in Christianity Today as describing the changes] — and a 1/3 chance of becoming asexual, even though they were healthy — they would not stay in business very long.”
What is also in dispute is Exodus’ right to use its claims (even IF they were valid) as a pretext for campaigning against the human and civil rights of those who are perfectly satisfied with their natural sexuality and have no wish to change it. Even the practitioners of the forms of fraud and quackery that I mentioned in a previous post (psychic surgery etc.) don’t lobby lawmakers to make life more difficult for those who take no interest in the “services” that they offer.
“N Waff”
Like I said, people have a right to do whatever they want. They can go and try to change their sexual orientation if they so wish, but they have a right to know that all mainstream psychologists say that it is harmful, and hardly ever, if ever, works.
N. Waff,
I find the criticism that ex gays aren’t accepted to be dishonest and for the most part disingenuous as well.
Why?
Because traditionally gay men and women cannot be gay ON CONDITION that they lose everything from career, equal freedom and protection, to family and very lives unless they DO give up being homosexual and associating with homosexuals except to change them.
THAT is not a choice at all. That is NOT giving an alternative to BEING gay.
If one could be gay with all the same freedoms, protection, justice and inclusion as someone heterosexual, just how many gay people do you think WOULD go through all one has to to APPEAR straight?
The incentives either way are very strong. Heterosexuals have much unconditional freedoms that gay people do not.
But how DOES one qualify a gay person as being finally straight?
How can you TELL? In what ways would you test or police that?
Criticisms of ex gays is valid because so many of them engage in the very political actions that FORCE the ‘choice’.
The other is just how suspect the ‘hard sell’ is. If being now hetero is so wonderful and special, then why all the ‘hey look at me I’m NOT gay!’ road shows.
Authentic straight people don’t go about it that hard, and haven’t a clue as to how much mental, emotional, physical or internal sacrifice or strength that takes.
It means more to straight people that gay people be straight, than the other way around.
And gay people going about it are SO exaggerated and almost caricature in what they are affecting.
It’s like watching someone white affect what they think are black mannerisms and speech and clothing and so on…but who they really are is plain as day.
IMHO…there are QUITE enough heterosexuals in the world. They far outnumber gay people anyway. So what’s the big deal making so many more, more, more and more?
If nothing else, I’d rather there were gay people around just to break up the monotony. You know…Star Bellied Sneeches and all that.
Any lifestyle a gay person leads is a homosexual lifestyle. A gay person never having sex again and marrying a member of the opposite sex is still leading a gay lifestyle because they are gay. No matter what they do sexually.
Gay lifestyle seems to be a political designation but rhetorically, it is any life that a gay person leads.
My point? I’m sure it’s possible that a gay man decides he wants nothing more to do with other men sexually for whatever reason. But the ex-gay movement does not describe this as an organic process that a person comes to on their journey in life. It is a forced process done for the purpose of aligning someone with a “correct” way of living. Too many lgbt people have been forced in this capacity. The ex-gay movement does not merely provide an organic way of people to learn new rituals or practices to “come out” of being gay, as if being gay is a religious choice. It affirms that homosexuality is shameful and needs to be resisted.
According to your definition of lifestyle, Jarvis, nearly all ex-gays lead a gay lifestyle.
Just sayin’.
Homosexuality itself is a misnomer. The act of “sex” does not occur between members of the same sex. It is simply, and always has been, nothing more than an act of mutual masturbation.
I saw a comment up there that read “It’s as though you think homosexuality isn’t an orientation, just an act”. Precisely. That’s exactly what it is. The idea of a “sexual orientation” is a silly one, and an ultimately fruitless search for scientific evidence of it is even sillier.
And Joel is trolling gay sites trying to talk to gay people about gayness because he is SOO not gay…
Well, Joel, if you want to make up your own definition of sex as meaning only heterosexual sex, then you’re free to do so, but I don’t know why you bothered. I remember reading of an English gentleman who defined “religion” as meaning only the Christian religion, and by the “Christian religion” he meant only the Protestant Christian religion, and by the “Protestant Christian religion” he meant only the religion of the Church of England.
We can all go on playing this game of narrowing the definitions of words ad infinitum, but it doesn’t contribute to our understanding in any way; it’s just a waste of time and intellectual energy.
And when you say that the idea of a “sexual orientation” is a silly one, it’s you who are being silly. I know that there’s such a thing as a homosexual orientation because I’ve got one, and I had one years before I ever participated in homosexual sex – sorry, in any act of mutual masturbation..
Joel,
Homosexuality and heterosexuality are both legitimate sexual orientations. And yes, scientific evidence by all respected mental health organizations support that niether homosexuality nor heterosexuality are a choice, mental illness or abnormality.
Someone can be homosexual without engaging in same sex “sex” (or as you like to call it “mutual masturbation”) simply because they are attracted to members of the same sex. Someone can be heterosexual without engaging in sex with members of the opposite sex simply because they are attracted to members of the opposite sex.
I’ll say it again, every respected mental health organization says that homosexuality is not a choice, mental illness, or abnormality. Anyone who says anything else is therefore the “silly” one.
What are you attraction defined folks afraid of, you may be mislead? Why do you rant and rave over ex=gays? Do they scare you by creating doubts? I don’t get it, if you are so sure truth is on your side why the self-rightousness? You border on heterophobic maybe?
James
Your comment about respected mental health organizations that orientation is not a choice is odd. Name them man. Every one of them. Consider the sociological studies that show orientation is multi-causal and the biggest determinant is probably societal and family. Find a comparable-to-US proportionate homosexual population in China.
You can’t. The Chinese society and family do not socialize it in. I think you need to kick back and open your mind and heart. Homosexuality is nothing more than defining yourself by attraction. That is simple yet profound if you are willing to ponder it.
No reputable study has found that the biggest determinant of orientation is society or family.
And it’s not possible to calculate the same-sex-attracted population in either the U.S. or China because governments of both countries — under pressure from ex-gay and antigay activists — refuse to add orientation to their censuses. However, it’s easy to find LGBT Chinese people emigrating to the United States, Western Europe, and Australia.
I don’t know of anyone who is especially “attraction-defined” — except ex-gay activists who make careers from boasting of their sexless “heterosexuality” and adopted children and antigay parents who obsess over their own attractions and those of their children.
Ex-gay political activists obsessively define themselves according to their attraction — specifically, what they falsely imply that they are not to be attracted to. So, too, do heterosexuals obsess over attraction when they demand that homosexual persons be singled out for denial of constitutional rights and equality enjoyed by everyone else.
Being gay should be a non-issue — unfortunately, antigay and ex-gay activists are consumed by an unhealthy desire to define, oppress, ostracize, and imprison persons based upon their attractions.
Craig,
You want a list?
American Psychological Association
American Psychiatric Association
American Counseling Association
American Medical Association
American Psychoanalytic Association
American School Counselor Association
American Academy of Pediatrics
American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychology
American Academy of Family Physicians
National Association of Social Workers
National Association of School Psychologists
There you go. Go to each and every one of their websites or some publication of theirs that has to do with homosexuality and you will find it. Homosexuality is NOT a mental illness, is NOT a choice, is NOT abnormal, and homosexuals hardly, if ever become heterosexual.
Of course the anti-gay and ex-gay activists fail to mention all of them, they only mention the American Psychological Association and then proceed to give some whackjob tale about how they were taken over by gay activists. Like it’s even possible for a MINORITY (that was then percieved as mentally disabled) to influence a medical decision that says they are normal.
That’s like a bunch of psychotic people getting together to take over the APA to remove Psychosis from the list of mental illnesses. How silly does that sound?
I’m sorry you choose to remain ignorant, and I’m sorry that you feel that youe beliefs are greater than hardcore evidence. But that doesn’t mean that we have to cater to those beliefs.
But here is what the American Psychological Association says about homosexuality anyway: http://www.apahelpcenter.org/articles/article.php?id=31
You said that sexual orientation is largely family and societal causes? Nope. You’re lying. Try again.
Have a good night!
=)
The APA reference is a bit laughable. Look up Dr. Robert Spitzer’s APA reversal “scientific, hard core fact and evidential” stance he took when the APA vote for the gay coerced agenda pushed them into political correctness. Note his hard core evidence now and why he says “gays” can change.
But really Mike and James why are you all so angry at men who turn away from what they knew as enslaving gay living? Why is the tone of the gay agenda and this site all about trying to silence any objection to what?, maybe a lie you are believing?
Take note of the anger and whining on this site. Most odd that one can only become gay and not the reverse. Only the pained would disply the anger and rancor over anyone who disagrees with you. And don’t whine about persecution, you have no idea how your gay induced perception has blown that out of proportion to all reality. Honestly the lack of the masculine is made up by the abundance of the immature whining at times.
Why get emotionally hysterical when you hear there is someone who has left the gay behavior. Call me a liar but let me ask some more questions of you.
What are you looking for when you long for a man?
When you “get it” in the sex act is it fulfilling?
Why is it all so serial, so anonymous for so many gays?
Is that an indication it does not really fill up the needs?
Since the object of your sex is another male the same as you do you “get the male” you long for or does it all come up empty?
Does the female scare you? If so is it maybe because you feel you are not a man?
Sure you will angrily write back that none of this is relevant to experience or the existence of the “gay” man
but when you write tell me what you look for in the male. What do you long for in the homosexual act? If you are as free and shame-free as you imply this should come easy. I’d really like to know why you do what you do when you have sex with the same gender as yourself. That is a harder dialog to have then the bitter one we have had so far but I am willing to hear what you long for so much. Don’t indulge in the pity and persecution stuff either, play the man, man. Let’s put this on a different level. Explain what makes gay life and sex fulfilling. What makes it so freeing to you? Please don’t engage in circular reasoning either. Don’t tell me your identity compels you. That is a false answer because if your identity is mistaken all you have said is you are compelled in the wrong direction. No tell me how gay life and it’s preoccupation with sex in a lot of odd forms brings you freedom, makes you more human, fulfills you? Try a positive argument and I will listen.
How do you find yourself in the same? If you only answer one question then answer that one.
Craig
Craig,
Well see now I KNOW you have it all wrong. I am NOT preoccupied with sex. My life does NOT revolve around sex. I am a college student, I have a job, I have a life. My homosexuality is to me as heterosexuality is to heterosexual. Sex for me is only part of my homosexuality as is for heterosexuals.
You are believing too much myth. None of it is true. I knew I liked other guys before I even knew what gay was, what sexual orientation was, or what sex was. There was a strange attraction to them. It all happened when I hit puberty. I NEVER liked ANY girls. It was completely repulsed by dating girls.
My heterosexuality is as natural to me as heterosexuality is for the majority. None of your last post speaks of truth.
I react angrily to it because it is all LIES! And people believe those LIES and try to ruin my life because of it. It’s because of those LIES that make people not like me and discriminate against me. For something I swear I did not even choose. I didn’t choose to have feelings for guys. I can choose to resist them, but that’s like a heterosexual man resisting his heterosexual feelings.
Homosexuality is NOT an “act”! It is just as a legitimate sexual orientation as heterosexuality. My life does NOT center around sex. THAT is why I am angry at this. If someone said to you that heterosexuality is all about sex, what are you gonna do?
Look I’m so sick of these fcuking LIES that are being spread about me THAT is why I am angry! These lies have led to all the rejection by my family and friends that I have faced. How DARE you ask me why I get so angry at them! If someone constanty LIED about your life, how would you feel?
By the way, Spitzer did NOT change his mind about the study he did in 1973. The results of his study were taken completely out of context.
He made a video not too long ago explaining this. It can be found here: http://respectmyresearch.org/scientists/dr-robert-spitzer/
In that video, Spitzer clerly establishes that his 2001 study was taken completely out of context, and he even says that he does not suggest to go into ex-gay therapy if one is gay, that to accept yourself for who you are is the best course of action.
By the way Craig,
I have been to “ex gay” therapy and it didn’t work for me. Mostly because the “ex gay” therapists have it all wrong. They still believe the falsivity that homosexuality is about the “act”.
Homosexuality is like heterosexuality, it is one’s sexual orientation. It’s not anymore of an act than is heterosexuality.
Look Craig, just because you’re too IGNORANT to see that and look at some “literature” besides some from some “ex gay” organization, doesn’t mean it’s not true.
Now every respected mental health organization says homosexuality is NOT a mental illness, a choice, and is completely normal for a minority like heterosexuality is for the majority, and homosexuals hardly, if ever, become heterosexual. What then possesses you to say anything else?
If homosexuality is abnormal and a mental illness, then why would every respected mental health organization disagree with that notion? I don’t understand why over 500,000 of America’s best medical and psychological professionals would say something in their field that is not true.
Why are you so ignorant of it? Why is it so difficult to accept Huh?? Because you WANT to not believe it! In your fantasy world that you made up in your head, homosexuality is abnormal, but the professionals DO NOT AGREE WITH YOU!!! If you were reasonable, then you would see that.
You have a right to know that. Jesus Christ, I think it’s abnormal for someone to be presented with an overwhelming amount of evidence of something, and then, NOT believe it!
It seems like people are just talking right past each other on this thread.
Obvious, there are people who have been in gay relationships who are now in straight ones. Some of those people went through an anti-gay program like Exodus, some did not. Some of them are truly bisexual, and therefore can find happiness in a heterosexual union. Some have simply crawled back into the closet, and are either denying their true sexual feelings or acting out on them in secret. All of these situations exist. We can only judge people by their actions, not what we think their feelings are.
Meanwhile, the problem I have with anti-gay organizations like Exodus is that they don’t present the nuance. They don’t say “if you’re gay, that’s OK, but if you want to suppress your feelings or find your bisexual side, we’ll help you do that.” What they say is, “if you succumb to the gay lifestyle, you have failed.” And that is an incredibly hurtful and damaging message to be putting out there, especially when people are being so vulnerable and courageous about being honest about their sexual feelings, often for the first time.
Craig,
Do you actually know anything about being homosexual from first-hand experience? If you do, then please tell us all about it. If you don’t, and it’s simply something that you don’t understand, then why not leave the whole thing alone, for heaven’s sake?
I know and happily accept the fact that the vast majority of people are predominantly or completely heterosexual, that that’s the way it’s always been, and that that’s the way it always will be. I don’t demand to know what a heterosexual man looks for in a woman, what he longs for in a heterosexual act, why he does what he does when he has sex with someone of a different gender than himself, or whether he does it because he’s afraid of other men. Nor do I accuse him of defining himself by his attraction. So why should you feel the need to do the converse? Is this some kind of obsession of yours?
Craig – my answer to all your questions simply and succinctly:
Mind your own f**king business.
I don’t have to explain my actions or my attractions to you, and I don’t care to know about yours.
Focus on Your Own Damn Family.
Hope that helps xx
There is a difference between a compulsive urge and one’s true self. I know it’s hard to believe, but it’s the truth.
Grace, what EXACTLY are you talking about? Are you saying that homosexuality is an “urge”. Now you may be not, but a common argument by anti-LGBT activists is that “you can’t choose homosexual feelings, but you can choose to resist them.”
He he, you never learn do you? If someone is homosexual, then their homosexual feelings are as natural to them as heterosexual feelings are to a heterosexual. Try telling a heterosexual to resist their feelings. Tell them to never be in a heterosexual relationship, or to force themselves to resist the urge to have heterosexual sex.
So why is it a double standard for homosexuals? Why do homosexuals have to be the one who suppress themselves and be miserable to please society?
If homosexuality is to be classified as “a compulsive urge”, then heterosexuality must also be so classified.
People who are true to themselves are honest with themselves and others about their predominant state of romantic and sexual attraction; they don’t lie and imply that they have heterosexual “urges” in order to appease churches or so-called “friends.”
“Grace” appears to believe that all sexual attraction can be reduced to mere lustful urges. She seems to be an advocate of sexual dishonesty.
Your core identity is based on your beliefs, not your “feelings”. Feelings aren’t facts.
Thank you so much, Grace, for that luminous statement.
If all the people to whom you are sexually attracted are people of your own sex, then that’s a fact, whether or not you choose to call it part of your “core identity”.
Sorry, Grace, but beliefs aren’t facts either. You can believe all you want that the moon is made of green cheese but it doesn’t make it so. You can believe being gay is a choice and that we can “change”, but believing that doesn’t make it true. You also do a great disservice to others and yourself by insisting on believing that.
Sexual orientation is not just about feelings, and it is at the core of who we are, be we straight, gay, bisexual or whatever.
James, Michael, William and Buffy, thank you for your comments.
I may be wrong, but it strikes me that for each of you, simply hearing another person make statements that you disagree with, or consider “ridiculous”, causes your stress levels go through the roof. As if anyone who does not completely mirror you and your own ideas, is automatically seen as “an attacker”. As in “fight or flight response”.
Now go back to what I originally wrote (substituting different, but related ideas:) There is a difference between your autonomic responses to people, places and things, and your true value as a human being.
People get more than annoyed, Grace, when silly little girls come along and claim to know what is best for other people.
Who on earth do you think you are, to determine anyone else’s ‘true value’ – what is this ‘true value’, and how do you know this? Come on, give us a laugh.
The reason why people get angry with meddlesome, interfering little jerks like yourself, is because you do not have a right to stick your nose into the affairs of people you do not and cannot know. I’ll be the judge of what’s best for me, thanks. I hope people get angry, when they read such seperstitious nonsense and bigotry, and it’s time you got used to it.
Grace, you know, if I were to insult a black person, then that person would get angry at me. The only difference is, I wouldn’t be stupid and wonder why.
Being gay is WHO someone is, like heterosexuality. Now I disgaree with what you said because I am gay and I know that my homosexuality is as natural to me as heterosexuality is for any heterosexual. Now this is not disagreeing it is plain ignorance because I’m telling you, what you are saying about gay people are NOT true.
Now when someone straight presumes to tell me their “beliefs” about homosexuality and that it is a “choice” or some other myth and I say, “No that is not true!” Then they shouldn’t turn around and say, “Why are you yelling at me for disagreeing with you? You say you did not choose to be gay and that’s you’re opinion but I say you did and that’s my opinion!”
It is nothing but complete ignorance. What if in my “opinion” I said that you were a mentally retarded moron? It may be your “opinion” that you’re not, but in MY “opinion” you are so don’t yell at me for disagreeing with you.
People know themselves better than anyone else. Why do you feel the need to tell everyone how they feel but ignore what they say they feel themselves?
“There is a difference between your autonomic responses to people, places and things, and your true value as a human being.”
So there is, Grace, so there is. What of it?
Check out the new pamphlet on homosexuality by the APA.Since a number of you appeal to that organization and not others that do not support your identity you should carefully read the pamphlet and note the revisions.
Change is possible and to be respected, so I just don’t get why emancipated gays feel so angry over those who have chosen to leave the life? Even the APA is softening its stance. Here it is http://www.apa.org/topics/sorientation.html.
Calling people silly little girls and jerks is not too mature. I would also say if you cast the stone at me as being a liar that you ought to consider your own beliefs, feelings as being possibly fed by a lie.
I think you have been lied to and believe a lie. One expression of a heart not sure of itself is discontentment and anger. Sure you may have a case for some justifiable anger but here is a huge amount of anger in these posts and this site that is just way over the top. If you are fully content that your homosexuality brings out the best in you, and makes you grow in life and maturity then that is your choice. I suggest you consider that anger at ex-gays is a possible symptom of uncertainty reflective of those doubts. Ex-gays scare you because a whole new world could open up to you and that is threatening. But fear is not a bad thing, it can be a sign something is wrong.
Sometimes we don’t want to be changed because of the things that will bring about. You like all of us feel some things are not our choice. You think you are alone in this thing bound to things we don’t understand? But this next moment is your choice isn’t it?
So if you love what you are, stay that way, if you are not sure then consider having an honest dialog with an ex-gay. If you are really open-minded have one with me a heterosexual male.
And so my question still stands, how does homosexuality bring wholeness to you? What is desired in the relationship? And to answer your question yes, James, I have engaged in homosex at an age where the gay sex ideology claims you are fixed in gayness, so I can actually speak from a perspective you do not have. Actually if you’d all listen to Grace a little bit more you could learn something from Grace’s perspective too.
I will be happy to explain what fulfillment in the heterosexual life is if you will share what the homosexual life brings to you all. Tell me the positive things your gayness brings you. And if it has nothing to do with sex, then why engage sex in it? Why not just find male friends? If it does have something to do with sex that what is fulfilling in sex with the same?
Craig, I just clicked on that link in your comment, and it said that “To date, there has been no scientifically adequate research to show that therapy aimed at changing sexual orientation (sometimes called reparative or conversion therapy) is safe or effective”
Here it is (to borrow your words): http://www.apa.org/topics/sorientation.html#whatabout
Now the only thing that comes CLOSE to them “respecting” reparative therapy is: “Mental health professional organizations call on their members to respect a person’ (client’) right to selfdetermination”
And that’s right, it always has been so. If someone wants to try and change their sexual orientation, then they can, no one is ACTUALLY stopping them. They at least have the right to know that there is a GREAT potential of harm involved and that it hardly, if ever works and the best thing to do is try and deal with being gay.
NO WHERE in that pamphlet does it say that the APA condones “reparative therapy” NO WHERE does it SUGGEST it, NO WHERE does it say it works, or is safe.
So what EXACTLY are you trying to say???
You post a link in your comment and say it’s one thing, but it’s actually the complete OPPOSITE!!!
Wierd…..
By the way Craig, homosexuality is who someone is, just like heterosexuality, so whatever the majority finds fulfilling in heterosexuality, trust that a minority feels the same about their homosexuality.
And you say, “what is the need to have gay sex, why don’t you just find male friends?” Well then, what is the need to have heterosexual sex if not to reproduce? Yeah, you can reproduce with heterosexual sex, but don’t try and convince me that heterosexuals ONLY have sex just to reproduce, now. That would be stupid to say a thing like that.
So why have heterosexual sex if not to always do it to reproduce? Why do you do it? What’s the need? If you’re not having babies (like like-minded people like yourself claim heterosexuality is for) then maybe you shouldn’t have heterosexual sex? That’s what your saying, you just think that it only applies to people you are against, though, but it’s still EXACTLY what you are saying.
And what about the countless people who have tied to become heterosexual and it didn’t work out and the only way they could feel good about themselves was to accept themselves as gay/lesbian? Why do you have a problem with them doing that?