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In February, a brave gay Ugandan man living in exile appeared at the National Press Club in Washington with a paper bag over his head to denounce Uganda’s draconian Anti-Homosexuality Bill. He wore the mask to conceal his identity because he feared for his life.
Today, Kushaba Moses Mworeko took off his mask to urge the African Anglican Bishops at the All African Bishops Conference in Entebbe to speak out against Uganda’s “Kill the Gays Bill” and other forms of anti-gay discrimination on the continent.
“It is time for Christian leaders in Africa to start promoting peace and stop persecuting LGBT people,” said Kushaba Moses Mworeko, who recently escaped to the United States. “I call on the Anglican Church to speak out forcefully against the Anti-Homosexuality Bill and to support decriminalizing gay relationships across the continent. As the church grows in Africa it must choose to be a force for good and not intolerance.”
Speakers claimed that the continent would have 673 million Christians by 2025 and lead Christendom in the 21st century. Egyptian Bishop Mouneer Anis spoke of the significance of this meeting when he told bishops from more than 400 dioceses, “There is no doubt that history is going to record what happens at this conference for future generations. This is no ordinary conference because it’s happening in an extraordinary context.”
The Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr. Rowan Williams, (pictured) spoke at the event, but has yet to effectively use his bully pulpit to shape a more accepting environment towards LGBT people in Africa.
“The All African Bishops Conference offers Rowan Williams a unique opportunity to show leadership and moral clarity by denouncing Uganda’s Anti-Homosexuality Bill,” said Mworeko. “I urge the Archbishop of Canterbury to display a backbone and set a positive tone for the Anglican Church in Africa. His silence will be seen as a green light for the witch hunts against the LGBT community to continue.”
In a new Youtube video, Mworeko sent a message of perseverance and hope to his LGBT brothers and sisters still living in Uganda.
“We shall continue fighting for our rights and the time to fight is now,” said Mworeko. “This is about liberty, this is about equality, this is about justice. We are here to reclaim our freedom.”
“If Moses has the courage to put his life at risk by speaking out against intolerance and injustice, the least Rowan Williams can do is acknowledge the inhumanity of the Anti-Homosexuality Bill while he is at this conference,” said Truth Wins Out’s Executive Director Wayne Besen. “His noticeable indifference to the suffering of LGBT people in Africa and worldwide is a great stain on his shrinking legacy. Only by finding his voice on LGBT issues can Williams reverse the damage that has occurred on his watch.”
Truth Wins Out is a non-profit organization that fights anti-gay religious extremism. TWO’s goal is to create a world where lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people can live openly, honestly and true to themselves.
Priya…I am not looking for an arguement with you…just pointing out that most of the world sees reality in both natural and supernat5ural terms. Especially these homophobes.
I was using the example of a 15 year old who IS very religious…just as these guys attacking us ARE.
IF you attack their faith, nothing else you say will even register. Just like with the 15 year old. As it happens, I have worked with kids who are GLBTQ (focus on the Q). Trust me…attack the faith first (an honest, open minded arguement against faith will be interpreted most times as an attack…fairly or not) and they dont listen. Personally, I want ot be listened to…not say something that (At one time) I would have considered the right thing, and feel good about my honestly as the kid walks away.
The animosity towards faith and people of faith on this site is notable. This is fine…it is even understandable. All I am saying is, well…most of the world does NOT see life this way. If you want to influence them, you have to talk to them in a way that does not make them just shut down.
Or, you can say what you want, fell great about your honestly, and…get nowhere.
Lots of my friends are athiests or agnostics by they way. They are some of the most moral and decent people I know, and I have no animus against them.
As per your being a fool…no…I don’t. I see you as a person with an opinion different than my own. I believe I am correct, but, that does not mean that the many logical and even elegant arguements against faith do not deserve respect. And you, as a human being, deserve respect, as do your opinions. As a liberal mainline protestant, I believe you and your beliefs have value, and that God may, in Gods infinite grace, interact with you as God wishes. God, as I understand God, is to grand and great for me to ever comprehend God. But, I know I am to show others respect…be humble, and work for justice. And, I know that people of faith shut down when their faith is mocked. Especially fundaamentalists.
Your thoughts on my faith, in truth, mean little to me.
Once again…do you want to argue about faith, or, liten to some (unpleasant from your point of view) advice on talking to people who DO put faith in the center of their lives? I wan to win them over, and, know how they think. Food for thought.
I like the dramatic twist between Gene and Priya…! Priya represents the typical gay person, rebelious and defiant as satan himself. Wanting to put reason to even what is metaphysical, subtle, and yes supernatural…merely to justify her wickedness. And Gene, one of such seeds that fell among thorns.
Gene you are right about one thing though, that when a person without faith attacks one with it, the best thing is to shut up…for they do not know what they are saying. Some of us can vouch for the existence of the power that is GOD, and yes Priya, take it or leave it there is a GOD who wants you to start by repenting your blasphemous posts, you are lost sheep and his hands are open, and as sure as there is night and day, there is life after death and you are the author of your fate after this life. I leave you to remember these lines when that day comes, I wouldnt want to imagine the tinge of regret on your brow at that moment,and believe it or not you shall face HIM whom you despise and denouce at this moment.I will forgive your ignorance and apathy towards THE GOOD NEWS…your lack of faith is justified by the society you live in, in which almost everything has a tagged explaination by science and technology and you have not had a chance to interface with this wonderful God whose word we defend zealously. For my part I forgive you and cannot continue arguing with you but show you the LIGHT that you ignorantly evade.
Gene, you evade the challenge I posed to you guys, particularly Devin. A person does not come to exist because he has foster parents. Anyone can feed, dress, and teach whatever code of morality they believe in to a child if they have the means. But that child has to be born first. So your having seen father and father parents is a hopeless excuse of evading the TRUTH. FACE the FACTS for once and stop dismissing everything! If you believe that Devin came from God I agree with you 100%, but God did not drop him and he was found. His father and his mother lay together and fertilisation took place. His mother carried him for nine months before he popped out. Even a test tube baby is a product of male and female. Thereafter the insane gays can adopt and teach him how to be gay…but will never have the power to procreate him. Also bear in mind that all people come from God, just like Devin who doesnt even believe this, but like Satan, there are children of God who are rebellious. The hope for them is to REPENT.
Still, Gene, I think Priya is right in not trusting in your words at all! She is right in calling you a fool and hypocrite because you do not know where you belong. Like I said earlier, you are the Devil’s ambossodor to confuse the church and alter christian beliefs. You almost seem apologetic for defending anything about God, SHAME!
People like you are the reason the Priyas of this world are lost because you offer them no concrete details about God’s existence and are swayed by the tide. You manipulate the Bible to justify your wickedness.You are the demons of confusion sent to alter the authentic WORD.
“I like the dramatic twist between Gene and Priya…!”
Of course you do!
Just like the Devil, Pat Choya delights in what they think is discord among allies. Like a serpent lying in wait to exploit. Bwhahahahaha! So much for calling others demonic. lol
Gene, I want to believe that you are “Bishop” Gene Robinson, I inhale deeply for more oxygen when I breathe that title to you! In your earlier posts you harangue about first class nations (meaning wealthy, because I would ask first class in what?) and how they are doing well because of their level of permissiveness to SIN, yes SIN. If your christian beliefs have any base, then you would know what folly that is. Wealth and worldly power are the roots of all evil. You glorify and worship wealth almost as a god! So what if you think we are poor, ofcourse in your context of poor, because trust me we aint missing out on anything that would make us break our necks for. I have personally moved around different parts of the world too, and my work makes me meet different people, and it has never felt like HOME in Uganda. I can assure you of that. Save for my work, I would welcome every opportunity to keep intact in this land GIFTED BY NATURE, THE PEARL…, ask Churchil (RIP) if you are too conceited to admit it! Or your own Queen and her predecessors, atleast they are not hypocritical in their appreciation!
I pity you for capitalising on wealth and material consequences as pedestals for a happy people. Happiness is not bought by any of these, so when I say we are happy it is truly so even if you hate to simply understand that. You should equally know that in every country of the world there are suffering people, begrudged people for whom not everything is going the right way. Show me a nation for whom 100% of population is content and not suffering in one way or the other. For that you have no right to capitalise on the suffering people of Uganda to justify your gay activism. The Lord’s Resistance army did not attack people because they refused to accept homosexuality. Neither are the wars of the world, Iraq, Israel, Palestine, Somalia, etc going on because people have failed to embrace LGBT groups! You pin the problems of Uganda on that factor, and how shallow that is! What about the problems in the so called fast world where such groups are tolerated?
Gene, you need to revisit your faith, and you obviously have none of it, and learn that the things of this world are of no primary consequence to our belief in God. You can go on glorifying your wealth until you are damned for it! Vanity is your greatest folly. Satan will continue to reward you with a lot of that wealth and will make you believe you are okey in order to deny you the ultimate heavenly splendour. We whom you think are simple folks do not place obsession on unnecessary luxury. We are happy with what we gain and what we cannot gain we do not cry for. We do not envy you in the context that you want us to, and the Devil is yet to seduce and blindfold us with wealth. People of good will shall continue to partner with us in many ways and we shall continuously improve the lives of suffering Ugandans in the best, affordable and less complicated and damning ways possible. If you are a beleiver at all, then you are aware that the Devil hunts those with power of faith and reminds them about their problems in order to make them lose hope…and those he has already courted like you, will continue to think you are comfortable…How I wish you would begin to see pure light through clear glass and not through tinted glass!
Ah Pat…you put me in an awkward position…between an angry athiest (angry with reason) and a mere fundamentalist. I know fully well where I belong. The church, which is still, much to athiests displeasure, the most powerful agent in my society, is changing. It is you who do not know where you belong Pat.
I notice you never address the issues of how the understanding of the Bible has changed concerning slavery, the role or women, etc, and how it is now changing concerning gay people.
But, how can you? You are badly educated on such issues (partly not your fault…being where you are from) and if you address the issue honestly, you will lose the arguement, for if you say “the way we understand the word never changes” then you endorse slavery….and if you admit it does change, then you have lost the debate.
The Anglicans, the PResbyterians, the Lutherans, The United church of Christ, Many Baptists and other congregations and churches now see the Bible this way. You just have to adjust to that Pat.
Priya is right to see many people of faith, and religion, as being, often, very bad roadblocks to true human freedom and development. I was merely pointing out to her that when she addresses a religious fantic, especially one with a primitive and backward form of the faith (any faith) she will get no where if she does not try to understand the fanatics motivations, and that insulting his faith makes everythig else she says illrelevant to him.
I am correct in this.
Pat, coming from a failed society, a failed culture, and a failing state, I would not expect you to understand the thing that has allowed my soctiey, and the other successful ones, to thrive. Tolerance.
I can disagree with Priya, and still respect her right to her athiesm, (or any faith or non faith she chooses). America is and has always been a secular state, but with a highly religious people. I am American. I am concerned with Priyas freedom…her pastor, should she ever choose to have one, can be concerned with her soul. It is called Freedom for a reason Pat. Until you have it, your nation will never really thrive.
Oh yes…facts. You mention facts. The fact is, my friends were raised by two fathers. They are the legal parents of their three children under US law. They were married in their church, in a big wedding with all their parents and families present, and it was beautiful. They are a wonderful family, devout Episcopalians, members of the PTA (Parent Teacher Assocaition) and one of them is a veteran of the US marine corp. These are the facts that matter Pat. Lots of male/female couples cannot have kids either, due to reproductive issues, or age, etc. Often, they adopt and have wonderful families, just like many gay couples. You will adjust to this, or, live a life of hatefullness, bigotry, and disresepoct for others…and you will do so in a socitey that is making itself a pariah to the majority of the world, the most successful nations in particular, and increasingly, the Church, which seems to means so much to you.
Time to grow up Pat. You seem so angry. But, if I was losing this debate (on the grand world wide scale, not just this conversation), I would be angry I suppose.
I hope you think on these things Pat…and grow both in tolerance, and hopefully, learn to treat other people, and their relationships and families, the way you would want your own treated. Thats what it really comes down to…a lessen even a child should know; that is right and good to treat others the way we would want to be treated. Hopefully, someday, you will.
Oh pat…you poor fool
The LRA attacks people because it is made up of religious fannatics and fundamentalists. I was merely, and correctly, pointing out that a society with a CANCER like that in it is stupid in the extreme to devote time to attackig gay people. But, the government needs to make an easily attacked common “other” enemy, so people wont think so much on its failures….so, gays will do as an easy target. It is easier than real governance.
You mistake success with wealth. The SUCCESSFUL nations are FREE Pat. With freedom…of religion, of speach, of the press, to be who you are (straight or gay) and to live as you personally see fit, so long as it hurts no one else, comes the opportunity for other forms of success. Both economic and cultural. The societies that worked hard, were tolerant, and welcoming, became the ones that the most hard working, successful and tolerant people wanted to move to, and did. And this collection of the ambitious, tolerant, and respectful of others, people, made the truly first class cultures, where people are free, live far longer lives, and can attain success in realms both financial, spiritual, cultural, and artistic.
Sorry…you dont get to twist this. And, there is no way to deny it; the most successful, first class cultures are the most tolerant ones. Facts prove it.
Gee, thanks Pat, calling me a ‘mistake’. That’s just so xtian of you! I’ll tell you what’s a ‘mistake’. It’s your obvious obsession with ‘teh gay’. What is your problem? Do you have a secret longing for the touch of another man which you are trying to hide beneath your bluster ( insanity? That’s it! Because no one would be this hatefilled (and a s’posed xtian to boot) unless he had severe mental problems dealing with his own inner desires. Liberate yourself and all of your obvious confusion will be put to rest.
I am ‘naturally’ gay & completely content to be so. You on the other hand are ‘unnatural’ because you are so choked with hatred.
Oh yes…the pearl…that was well over a century ago…look at the stats now. I am familiar with the quote. I told you earlier in the chat that a friend was in Uganda recently. She mentioned that quote…and then, she wept as she described a land ecologically ravaged, filled with hatred and bigotry, and an ugly fanatiacism. The pearl has lost it sheen in the eyes of the rest of the world. A pity…but, did you truly not know?
@ Alex, True am happy, because you will obviously not believe when I say that I prayed about it…because the living God DOES NOT DISAPPOINT. As I lay in my bed, I cried out to God to show me a sign of his precence in all this, I told Him that if my words are causing me to sin against his people, may He forgive me and I will not return to this blog! But if His will is in my posts, may He create confusion in the camp of the enemy until their poisonous words are swords against each other! I testify and Glorify God through Jesus Christ because my prayer was answered! It is a testimony am giving in my church on sunday! Alex, you better join the right path…people like Gene are FORMAL christians, for whom christianity is a formality. Meet the True GOd in spirit, talk to him, pour out your heart, and repent, you shall be amazed at the tranformation, the signs and the new being you shall eventually become. DO not fail to try, just a try and do it with purity of heart, God WILL show you his presence. I know it is seems difficult for you to believe this, BUT DO NOT LET THE DEVIL blindfold you and rejoice in winning your soul. Do not be stubborn by justifying everything through blind reason and arguing and insulting for pleasure!
Ha ha ha ….ma ribs are aching from laughter Devin! Spare me the ridiculous outburst!
Pat, I’m glad that you can laugh about your hate & insanity. The only ‘sin’ here on this site is your hatred. Nowhere did Gene ‘glorify & worship’ wealth and you know it! Stop being so hysterical, Patsy! Your obsession with Satan is twisting your mind. You are one poor witness for the xtian faith. I suggest you get back to your bible & concentrate on the words of Jesus & bypass the Old Testament altogether.
Poor pat…you say you have traveled…but, your travels seem not to have given you much wisdom. Priay and i will be working just as hard for rights for gay and lesbian people. Indeed, I have been showing your posts to kids I work with as an example of the hatefullness and disrespect that comes from fanatical and homophobic people, and, I must say, the effect has been very useful. I must thank you for that, although I assume that was not your goal.
As per your comment to Devin…once again, when presented with a thing you cannot dispute, you just mock it. Much like the way you just ignore data and information you do not like. You sound bitter, fanatical, and angry. Hey, keep posting. I work with kids, like I said…and when a 16 year old girl says “but, he never answers any questions, or your points about free socities..I mean…why not? And is sooo mean to people who post!”, I have a great opportunity to point out “because he knows he can’t…and his meanness and belittleing of others says alot about what his worldview does to people, don’t you think?”….and my side of the debate has just succeeded in something, for a lovely young woman sees intolerance and bigotry and religious fanaticism as the hollow things they are.
Enjoy your rib aching laughter :)
I will have to settle for success in the debate, and using your words and tone to influence others.
Many thanks
Gene,I strongly believe you shall come to a point in this life or the next when your supposedly clever refutations will be too coarse for you to swallow back. You will PAY for misleading others and to that I have no doubt. You do not impress me at all and it doesnt matter how much you recount your kind of success…whether you admit it or not the ultimate DEFEAT and FAILURE awaits you…
Gene, we are even, because you are my example to others as well. Everyone who has seen your posts is dumbfounded at what lengths the devil can go….As for you killing the innocence of little children, you will pay as you very well know! So keep up, otherwise your cunning master would not be proud of your immitation of him.
Your assumptions about me are ridiculous. I respect your relationship with God. However, your personal relationship has really got nothing to do with me. I do believe in God. So don’t gloat about blindness and such.
The only reason I have responded to this post at all is because of the misinformation that has caused unnecessary death and destruction.
“Do not be stubborn by justifying everything through blind reason and arguing and insulting for pleasure!”
I do recall, in some of your posts, doing the same.
So you want each of us to have a personal relationship with God while simultaneously stripping that away?
I know that you believe we are wrong and against God but, I do not understand how hostility is the answer. All those things that you believe are being done behind closed doors are also being practiced by your own as well. I don’t understand why you feel the need to attack one but fail to attack all who fall under the list of undesirables.
ah…post 63 by pat….the lady doest protest to much, and such comments as yours pat, well…they speak for themselves…(especially the “well I can do that do” as an afterthought in the next post!)
I admit, I do so enjoy winning.
But Pat, while you hate me…I only pity you. And we serve the same master, and the same faith. You just still approach it the same way my ancestors did when they came to your continent and used scripture as justification to enslave and pillage. In time, I have great hope for you…you would not, as I said, be the first east African who has changed their mind after seeing the facts, and gay people as just that…people, worthy of respect, kindness, and often good friends, neighbors…and, even local pastor or Bishop. Till then, I wish you well…but, you will also have to answer for the death, pain, and heartbreak you and those who think like you will cause in Uganda, for the families broker, the children who must leave their loved ones out of fear of this draconian law, and the lower standard of living that will result as more and more of the world turns away from your land in disdain.
Be careful telling others to wash their hands, when yours are so much, much, much more dirty. Even, sadly, bloody.
Pat, have you ever heard of ‘projection’? Because that is what you are doing to Gene – projecting your own devilish posts onto him. Your threats are what is ‘dumbfounding’. Gene may believe you have a warped kind of xtianity but I believe YOUR Master is Satan – face it, Patsy, you’ve fallen for the Father of Lies, & your grotesque hatred is the mark of your Master. (And quit picking on Gene who is at least gracious enuf to allow that you might be a xtian!) Personally, I doubt it.
Gene, u cant say you serve the some master with Pat because you are lucifer’s agent and you know it. Its haunting you thats why you are deffending your self jealously. Just accept the truth and it will set you free. You even think you deserve respect, kindness, good friends for you to spoil!, and neighbours? Its true you just want to expand the kingdom of lucifer your master……..but please ugandans are sorry for you because we wont welcome you. You have to continue being isolated, you have to hide because thats where you belong. You will instead answer for the death, pain and heartbreak because of your false preachings. And indeed many will leave their families and loved ones if they are to follow your teachings of hell!!! We dont care about the standards of living here in uganda as long as we know the truth and we are ready to fight for it, it will set us free.
Alex, which type of God supports gay? Do you think he was stupid to create man and woman? who is misinformed? is it you or pat? U deserve insults and abusses because you are stupid doudle main not to differentiate between what is right and what is not even when its so obvious to a fool. we are not hostile to you but rather we want to show you the truth because its our responsibility. Stop those silly actions because i know you dont enjoy them but do them for your own reserved reasons. i know you can change for the better. please do. lets stand against this silly thing and the world will be a better place for all of us to live!
My goodness.
You know who ALSO didn’t create gays? Zeus and Thor. TOTALLY didn’t because they’re pretend, but somehow people are supposed to believe that the myths that inexplicably survive are actually true?
Silliness.
Oh, and Jolly, it is NEVER the responsibility of the less educated/more ignorant to teach anyone anything. It’s your responsibility to learn to tie your shoes without falling in the bathtub and to keep your helmet on when you get out of bed, like the nice man in the coat said.
Jolly, could you try to talk English a little more clearly? Perhaps you do not understand that in America we can believe anything we wish to believe & not be disrespected the way YOU & Patsy have disrespected us here at T.W.O.?
Clean up your act.
@Jolly
I see that you like to to paint pictures about everyone and everything. As I have said before, I respect the personal relationships that others may share with God. You have only come here to support misinformation not your beliefs. You are full of anger and misdirection.
Please, TWO admins, ban the trolls as they pop up. I know it’s like an endless game of Whack-A-Mole, but it might help keep threads on track.
“u cant say you serve the some master with Pat because you are lucifer’s agent and you know it.”
Oh good. Now tell us the one about the Loch Ness monster.
Grown-ups are supposed to stop believing in fairy tales.
Yes, Tom, whack-a-mole is a good way to put it.
These three are close. I try not to use the ban-hammer too liberally, but good god.
Jolly…you think I am worried Iwould not be welcomed in UGANDA? Oh my. Think of the tens of millions of people, after hearing what a great place it is, immigrate there.
Oh. Wait. That did not happen. People LEAVE Uganda. Laws like the ones your nation is proposing, and the entire civilized world is condemning, are NOT the normal or good thing. Most of the world is moving in the other direction. Pointing out that most of these nations are growing better places to live, both economically and culturally and medically only points out that success, material, moral and otherwise, go with tolerance. Not the other way around.
Even wonder why?
Trust me…like it or not, it is you who are isolated. From the greater world community, and the church out side of Africa for that matter.
Jolly, when you have been reduced to being insutling, nasty and mean to people, as you have been to Alex, and others, you look weak in your faith (which you dishonor by your tone) and weaker in your arguements.
You two have been trying, and failing, to put us on the defensive.
You say God condemns us. I point out that God does not, and that the churches, including the Anglican one thta dominates in your country, Uganda, does not. The Episcopal Church and Church of England have been condemned by many (not all) Africans (bless you Archbishop Tutu) but, more and more Christians now read the Bible in a way that I have repeatedly pointed out is not gay condemning…just like we now read it in a way that is no longer pro slavery for Africa.
When will you be brave enought to acknowledge this fact…? Or will you admit that we have won the arguement by ignoring this fact?
You speak of making the world a better place for us all to live in Jolly…but, by every standard, the best places to live, Norther Europe, the US, parts of South America, with the greatest freedom, longest life expectancy, and best rule of law and order, are all gay welcoming. Does this mean you plan on working for a better and more tolerant Uganda where everyeone will be free, both gay and straight?
You tell people what you “know” they do not enjoy, and by extension what is not natural to them. This ability to read minds and know things about people you have never met would be really, really useful in business. Can you teach us to read the minds and hearts of people on the other side of the world? Do all people there have this amazing skill?
Lastly, that isolated thing again….just how are we isoloate? From the majority of nations and VAST majority of humans that live in socities that do not make being gay illegal? from the majority of the world Christian community? Much of it is now gay welcoming. Even most conservative denominations, like the Catholics, do not support such draconian laws, and state thatgay people are to be treated with dignity and kindness. Just who are we being isoloaed from? A band of nations south of Europe and north of South Africa?
Thats…well…not that isoloated, after all.
Lastly, Jolly…your last post to me, 68, is a keeper, from a teaching standpoint.
It shows that you dont think every person is deserving of basic decency, that you dont believe in being a good neighbor to all. Those are very basic consepts of Christian living (or decent living for people of any or no faith). when it comes down to it, you sound bitter, angry, mean and ungracious. Are these the sort of thigns you want people to associate with the Christian faith? You may wonder why fewer and fewer people in the world are interested in your kind of Christianity. Sadly, all you need for an answer, is a mirror. You come here in a manner that is crass, insulting, anti intellectul and even dishonest, for an honest discussion involves answering your opponants questions, and admitting when they have made a point you cannot counter. After your display here, are you surprised people like Priya have no interest in the faith? Or Evan? Or others?
No one was ever insutled into faith Jolly and Pat. Laws that end up breaking up families and even killing people do not strenghten societies…and they make the society that passes them look weak. The way you address people often says as much about you as it does the person you are addressing.
You have made a poor showing, truth be known. You are losing this debate worldwide, both politically and in culture and yes, even in the church. A wise man would stand back, look at the situation, and ask, “why I am being ignored? Why is my view losing the day? Why is my land a laughingstock, and, why is my government, with all its problems, focusing on this…an attack on a minority that is hurting no one, and that the attack thereon is only taking attention away from the governments other failures?”
Those would be the actions of someone with balance, and the wisdom to look up and see.
Devin, thank you for your kind defense. IT is appreciated. Yet, speaking for myself, I am obliged to offer Pat the benefit of the doubt. And yes, respect, even if it is not truly earned. He or she is a person, and I wont denigrate him or her, or their faith, in the manner in which mine has been denigrated. Nor the basic right to be spoken to/written to, bluntly perhaps, but with the dignity due. In short, I dont want to fall into the trap Pat and Jolly have fallen into. No one deserves to be addressed that way, or have their faith questioned so, of their human dignit called into question. As warped and sad as his version of the faith is, only God (which yes, he/she and I both believe in) can judge if they are truly Christian or not. I dont see good evidence of it, but, it is not my place to say.
I am better than that. In time, I hope they will be to.
A closing note. Yes, Christianity has, until recently, been very anti gay. Not so much now. Notice the referene to the Good Bishop of New Hanpshire made in an earlier post. A good man, and gay. Some religions, Buddhism comes to mind, have neer been really homophobic. And, my husband grew up in Communist, officially athiest, China. Until recently, it was virulently homophobic, as was Athiest Soviet Russia. There is plenty of homophobic blood on lots of hands….and not believing in God is NO guarantee of gay tolerance. Sorry…history just does NOT back that thought up. Conversely, as the Episcopal and other denominations show, having faith can, for some, actually lead to a world view that demands tolerance and respect for all people, both gay and straight. Thanks.
Pat you seem to think you are God’s representative here yet you insulted Devin by calling him “a mistake” and others as servants of Satan ect. You think you are telling the truth but you are missing the key commandment to “tell the truth in love”. I see little love in your posts. I see only judgement which is not your job to do. So, when you give your “testimony” at your church on Sunday be sure to let them know you were not kind or loving but cruel and judgmental. BTW, I hardly think the disagreements here qualify as an real answer to your prayer.
“And, my husband grew up in Communist, officially athiest, China. Until recently, it was virulently homophobic, as was Athiest Soviet Russia. There is plenty of homophobic blood on lots of hands….and not believing in God is NO guarantee of gay tolerance. Sorry…history just does NOT back that thought up.”
I got no beef with you, Gene, but I do have to take exception to this bit here.
Yes, there are atheists who are homophobic… for completely ridiculous reasons, in my opinion. And yes, being atheist isn’t a guarantee of tolerance. But no one says, “Because I am an atheist, I believe gay people are disgusting.” The same can’t be said for many believers.
Gene, you don’t speak for anyone else other than yourself. You’re not in a position to say how anyone other than yourself is going to react to their religion being questioned, particularly a 15 year old. Children are not heavily invested in religion like you, they are much more open to questioning the truth of it. You are not in a position to claim you’ve found it better not to tell a child there is no god because you have never tried that option, you quite simply are lying when you say you’ve found that better.
The problem with your approach is that once you affirm to a child that there is a god and that the bible is written/inspired by him you’ve handed him over to the fundamentalists, you’re in no position to then argue that its okay to be gay. You’re in a VERY weak position trying to say all those passages that condemn gays don’t really mean that, they mean the opposite of that. You have no credibility when you say “Oh yeah, the bible is all true, but ignore these anti-gay parts, they mean the opposite of what they say.”.
I can point out error after error in the bible and its clear that the word of an omnisicient being would never be full of errors like that, it’s obviously the word of primitive scientifically illiterate goat herders. In addition your bible is full of one grotesque injustice after another by your god. After hearing about that the typical 15 year old is going to have a lot of doubts about the religion she’s been blindly encouraged to accept.
This is not about winning and losing for me, as it apparently is for you. Its not about being right, its about being honest and you’re asking me to lie and I certainly won’t do that. You’re a hypocrite. If an atheist 15 year old came to you and said “My uncle says there is a god and that if I don’t accept Jesus I’ll go to hell” you wouldn’t tell him there is no god because you know he would find that comforting, yet you expect me to tell a religious 15 year old there is a god because he would find that comforting.
You’re so blinded by your religion its scary, You talk about a 15 year old who’s religious and terrified of being gay and your suggestion is to tell him there is a god to “comfort” him. I’ve got news for you Gene, any religious 15 year old who’s terrified of being gay isn’t comforted by religion, they’re terrified by it – religion is the problem, not the answer. The solution is not to tell him that its true there’s a celestial dicatator out there waiting to eternally torture people for thought crimes and other trivial “crimes”, its to explain to him how religion is nonsensical, there is no evidence to support it, and over and over and over things we once thought were caused by gods have been found to have natural explanations.
Did I miss where Gene claimed to be speaking for all of us?
Pat said ” Priya represents the typical gay person, rebelious and defiant as satan himself. Wanting to put reason to even what is metaphysical, subtle, and yes supernatural…merely to justify her wickedness.”.
It is just and right to do whatever you want as long as you harm no one. You are harming innocent people and are by definition you are the wicked one and I am the moral one. And as far as your “supernatural” goes, show us your evidence that it exists, or admit it doesn’t.
Pat said “Some of us can vouch for the existence of the power that is GOD, and yes Priya, take it or leave it there is a GOD who wants you to start by repenting your blasphemous posts…”.
LOL, then you’ll have no problem showing me the proof of your god’s existence – let’s see it and then I’ll believe you.
Pat said “People like you are the reason the Priyas of this world are lost because you offer them no concrete details about God’s existence and are swayed by the tide.”.
LOL, and neither have you provided concrete details. Let’s see them or STFU.
Pat said “you have no right to capitalise on the suffering people of Uganda to justify your gay activism.”.
We’re not capitalizing on that, we’re just pointing out that its absurd of you to claim god is blessing Uganda for its attacks on gays.
Gene said “she will get no where if she does not try to understand the fanatics motivations, and that insulting his faith makes everythig else she says illrelevant to him.”.
You keep making that baseless claim that I don’t understand religious people’s motivations. Either quote me where I’ve expressed such a misunderstanding and show why its wrong or STFU. Frankly I don’t give a damn if everything I say is irrelevant to evil people like Pat – everything you say is irrelevant to him as well, in particular given that you enable him by conceding that there is a god and are then in no position to argue with him that the bible doesn’t condemn gays. I don’t write for the willfully stupid like Pat, I write for the reasonable but ignorant people who might be mislead by his specious arguments. I write to correct his lies, and yours.
Pat said “the living God DOES NOT DISAPPOINT.”.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha! You’re a laugh riot Pat. Ask him for a million dollars and a supermodel for a wife and see if he disappoints. While you’re at it ask him to give me a 2007 Ford GT, black with silver stripes.
Priya, I have to disagree with your notion that ‘children are not heavily invested in religion like you’. You may not realize it but children in fundie & evangelical households ARE very invested in their religion. Approaching a kid with the idea that there’s ‘no God’ is not gonna help. It doesn’t have to be so black or white – either you’re a fundie or you’re an atheist. There’s lotsa things that can be pointed out in the bible that don’t totally undermine it, like the fact that many words in the bible meant different things than they do now. An example would be the word ‘abomination’ which these days means ‘disgusting’ or ‘horrible’ but according to Hebrew scholars the word used to mean ‘taboo’ as in whether you keep kosher or not, a minor consideration.
I do agree, Priya, that the Old Testament is ‘full of one grotesque injustice after another’. I believe you are telling the truth as you see it, but I believe the same about Gene. He isn’t being a ‘hypocrite’. Religion is not nonsensical, you’re seeing things too drastically, all one thing or the other. There is a middle ground.
But Pat and Jolly are truly evil. But that’s just my opinion.
Pat said “[Gene] You will PAY for misleading others and to that I have no doubt. You do not impress me at all and it doesnt matter how much you recount your kind of success…whether you admit it or not the ultimate DEFEAT and FAILURE awaits you…”.
No he won’t pay. He’ll die and rot in the ground and that will be the end of him just as it will be for you and me regardless of how much pleasure your revenge fantasies give you now.
Gene said “[Pat] you will also have to answer for the death, pain, and heartbreak you and those who think like you will cause in Uganda.
You two have more in common than you have in difference. Both fantasizing that your cosmic father will beat up the other for going against your will. Interesting how the will of “god” always exactly matches the will of the worshipper.
Jolly said “[Gene] You will instead answer for the death, pain and heartbreak because of your false preachings”.
LOL, and agian! “Wah, wah, my sky daddy is going to get you for being mean to me!”. No he won’t Jolly, your sky daddy only exists in your imagination.
Jolly said “you are stupid doudle main not to differentiate between what is right and what is not even when its so obvious to a fool.”.
And that fool is you. What is right is that which harms no one, what is wrong is that which harms others. We are by definition doing right, you by definition are purveying evil.
Jolly said “we are not hostile to you but rather we want to show you the truth because its our responsibility.”.
You wouldn’t know the truth if it bit you in the a*s and it would be laughable if it weren’t so dishonest of you to claim you are not hostile. You rant about how we shouldn’t be allowed to live where we want, you want to force us from our homes, jobs, assault, imprison and murder us. You are evil incarnate.
Gene said “You say God condemns us. I point out that God does not,”.
When you assert that there is a god and the bible is important to your religon you are in a VERY weak position to be saying that. By stating that there is a god and the bible is important you are enabling people like Pat and Jolly and you will never convince them the bible doesn’t mean what it says. Don’t provide foundation for them to spread lies and hate.
Gene said ““And, my husband grew up in Communist, officially athiest, China. Until recently, it was virulently homophobic, as was Athiest Soviet Russia. There is plenty of homophobic blood on lots of hands….and not believing in God is NO guarantee of gay tolerance. Sorry…history just does NOT back that thought up.”.
Uhuh. And yet in the U.S. a poll showed that 85% of non-religious people support equal marriage for gays. Western atheists are far, far more gay friendly than religionists.
Daniel said “Did I miss where Gene claimed to be speaking for all of us?”.
Obviously you did. Right here:
#51 “most of the world sees reality in both natural and supernat5ural terms. Especially these homophobes.
I was using the example of a 15 year old who IS very religious…just as these guys attacking us ARE.
IF you attack their faith, nothing else you say will even register. Just like with the 15 year old. As it happens,”.
Gene claims to speak for all religious 15 year olds, and all religious people in general – just a tad arrogant.
Devin said “I have to disagree with your notion that ‘children are not heavily invested in religion like you’.”.
Depends on what your definition of “heavily” is. Certainly as the years go by in a religious person’s life they invest more and more time living there life in a straightjacket and it get’s more and more difficult to admit you’ve lived a lie and wasted your life. A child by virtue of having less years devoted to a lie is less heavily invested in it.
Devin said “Approaching a kid with the idea that there’s ‘no God’ is not gonna help.”. As neither you nor Gene have ever done that you are not in any position to make such a claim. What’s not going to help is to tell them there is a god, the bible is an authority and then try to backtrack and say “These parts that condemn gays mean the opposite of what they say.”.
Devin said “Religion is not nonsensical, you’re seeing things too drastically, all one thing or the other. There is a middle ground.”.
Uhuh. God sends himself to earth to kill himself to appease himself for creating people the way he knew they’d behave when he created them. An innocent person is punished for the wrongs of others. All mankind is declared fallen and responsible for the wrongdoing of a woman who ate an apple of the tree of knowledge. We know in our hearts that the most grotesque of injustices is to punish the innocent. How was Eve supposed to know it was wrong to disobey god and eat the apple when she didn’t have the knowledge of evil?
The very foundation of your religion is a grotesque injustice and utterly nonsensical. Its just that the story is so banal and familiar to you you’ve stepped back and asked “What kind of sense does it make?”. Absolutely none my dear, absolutely none. So spare me the ridiculous claim that your religion is not nonsensical – its very foundation is utterly absurd and injust.
Its ironic that Jolly and Pat rant about how they don’t want western values and how they want African values and yet they’ve wholeheartedly rejected the true African religions to embrace the white man’s religon and worship a white man. All the time you want to claim you won’t be dictated to by the white man you’re actually kissing the white man’s butt.
Priya, I still don’t see it. I think he’s presenting an opinion and even if he’s wrong I’m not sure why you’re attacking him over Pat & Jolly. But then I think you do sometimes attack allies for silly reasons (like your statements regarding Ana Kasparian of The Young Turks) rather than actual opponents.
I’m an atheist, I grew up Mormon and have no good feelings toward religions. But, I also see that there are a few denominations that are supportive and young gay people who grow up in these seem to have no ill effects. I don’t think these are all that common but they do exist.
“You may not realize it but children in fundie & evangelical households ARE very invested in their religion.”
Usually, “their” religion is the same religion as their parents’, and if their parents are telling them that there’s something inherently wrong with gay people, why would they be any more inclined to believe us if we say that their idea of god is wrong, than if we say that there isn’t a god at all?
Daniel said ” I think he’s presenting an opinion and even if he’s wrong I’m not sure why you’re attacking him over Pat & Jolly.”.
Because he’s repeatedly made the baseless claim that I’m misunderstanding religious thoughts and refused to quote me expressing such a misunderstanding or stop making the false claim. Because he’s repeatedly suggested I lie to a religious 15 year old because he thinks it would be “comforting” (even though he says the 15 year old is terrified of being gay – due to his religion!) when he would never in turn tell an atheist 15 year old terrified of being gay that there is no god because the 15 year old might find that comforting. He’s a hypocrite, selfish and fatuous.
Daneil said “But then I think you do sometimes attack allies for silly reasons (like your statements regarding Ana Kasparian of The Young Turks) rather than actual opponents.”.
I never made any statements regarding Ana Kasparian of the young turks.
Perhaps surprisingly I agree with you, Priya, when you bring up ‘creating people the way he knew they’d behave when he created them’.I have often wondered how someone was s’pose to be threatened with ‘death’ when it didn’t even exist.
Makyui has a very good point about parents passing on thier religion to their children. I was just agreeing with Gene that telling the 15 yr. old ‘there is no God’ is not gonna help the situation much. There are less drastic ways to go about it.
I was raised in an evangelical home & always took religion seriously but never took the anti-gay passages seriously. I still don’t. Now, to a died-in-the-wool xtian, I must seem to be a non-believer while to an atheist I am way too religious. I’m in the middle somewhere. That’s why I don’t think everything has to be so rigid & ‘I’m right’, ‘No, I’m right’.
Who the f**k is Pat Choya and why are so many intelligent people commenting to this pile of dirt?
And I’m not attacking Gene over Pat and Jolly. I’ve addressed all their BS as well.
Dakotahgeo, Pat Choya is a pitiful wreck of a man living a sordid life and seeking a sense of self-worth in trying to portray others as more despicable than he is (an impossible task). I comment to him because its fun poking holes in his irrational rants and its useful to demonstrate to any rational but uneducated readers out there how exactly he’s full of crap.
Priya, if you are going to ridicule everything in the Bible at least get things straight. It says fruit not apple and it is the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” not “tree of knowledge”.
Right Bob, those mistakes on my part COMPLETELY discredit the points I was making.
Seeing as you’re so smart Bob, can you explain to me how Eve was supposed to know it was wrong to eat the apple from the tree of knowledge when she didn’t have the knowledge of good and evil?
Makyui, and also Priya, like it or not, most of this world is made up of people with a religous identity, not those without it.
To tell someone that their view of God is wrong can be jarring. They may think you misguided, and enter a conversation with you. Then, you have a chance. To tell them that their is no God, if they truly believe their is, just makes you look like a nut and a fool in their eyes.
People dont listen to people they consider nuts and fools.
You may not realize it, but, to the deeply religious Christian, god is, literally, “father”. Tell someone their dad is wrong, and you may get a fight, or a discusson. Tell them that their dad is dead, when they sincerely believe in the core of their being that he is alive within them ( a core Christian belief) and they will just…shut…you…off.
Daniel, thank you for your defense. You mention you are an athiest (fine by me, as I know a lot of very nice people who are). But, you mention you used to be Mormon. If I may ask, am I wrong in my assessment that if you approached most young (or older for that matter) LDS folk, and your opener was “your religion is just made up stuff and crap”, they would pretty much raise their hackles, and ignore everything else you said on almost any issue? I look forward to your response, should you care to share it.
Priya, the passion of your attack seems to be preventing you from seeing a possibility you just dont like. Like the idea that the same faith that did indeed, thousands of years ago, write in its holy book many of the same attrocities you describe…yet, grow past them, into the religion of the Bishop Robinson, and Mother Theresa, and Archbishop Tutu. Modern Christians are perfectly aware of its flaws…even the modern Confession of the Presbyterian church says that the Bible is inspired by God, but written by men, and thus open to error. Didn’t you read where I wrote just that, and how it has changed and grown since the times when it was used to support slavery? Sorry Priya, but, your claims that I have said what I did not, are not correct.
Also Priya, this is painful, but, I saw it happen. Not with a 15 year old, but, with a 17 year old boy in a university medical center emergency room. He had just lost his mom (dad was not in the picture) in an accident that left him more or less unscathed, and was in a state of…well…we can all imagine. A young, brilliant intern took the time to stay with him while child services was summoned (not as quick a process as you might think in an ER) and tried to comfort him. The boy, and I have this from the intern hiself, for I left soon after he went over to him, was filled with the many questions…”why?” being the greatest. But, there were many more. The intern told him that, he could at least take comfort in knowing his mom was not in pain. “yes…yeah…she is in heaven now”. The boy responded. “well…if you actually believe in such things” was the response…said with appearant incredulessness.
The boy shut down. Further attempts at conversation went no where. Questions about family, nearest of kin, nothing. The boy shut down, and, I am told, quietly, wept.
The doctor in question is still very much an agnostic. and a good doc and pal of mine. But, HE had the wisdom to respect the world view of others. He does not believe it, but, as he points out, he cannot utterly disprove it either, and (IMPORTANT POINT) he is more concerned with attaining his goals as a physician than being an ‘evangelist’ for his view of the world.
What matters the most to you Priya? Understanding these bigoted men in a way that may help you help them see the errors of their way of seeing the place of gay people, or, the self satisfaction of feeling superior towards them as you address them in a manner that, to them, is every bit as off putting as the way they address you?
Priya, in your own way, your not that different from these guys. you cannot seem to show respect and grace to those whom you disagree with. What does that say?
The fact that something you hate so strongly might actually be moving in a way that is now gay friendly seems also to be a thing you just dont want to grasp. That is interesting. Nonsensical, but interesting. I know several gay athiests who are thrilled by it. They have the sense to see that the majority of the world that is, and will remain, religious, needs to have an outlet that is NOT homophobic.
When I used the example of the religous 15 year old, I was speaking in general. As it happens, most sociologists and experts in religion will back up my assertion. I have seen those kids, in the ER, quietly singing hymns…rocking back and forth, for comfort. I speak from personal experience Priya. You make a blanket statement that kids are not heavily invested in religion…and accuse me of claiming a universal statement mantle.
Interesting.
IF an athiest 15 year old came to me, as in your scenario, I would say, as I have when athiest children and young adults have told me of their athiesm or agnosticism, that I am a believer, but that I respect their opinion, and that many good and decent people are humanists and brights. If I was trying to convince them that gay people deserve equal rights and decency (and yes, I have met athiests who do not belive this. Russian raised, and a sad lot, and Mikyui, it was his athiesm that lead him to see humans as purely animals, and as animals to believe that we are basicly here to breed, so yes, it WAS his athiesm that lead him to that opinion of homophobia) the LAST thing I would do is insult their athiesm.
You mistake honestly with stridency. Personal honestly is a noble thing. Knowing when to hold ones tongue…like in a hospital ER…or when debating a bigot who just MIGHT have otherwise listened and had his attitude softened…which, to a gay man he might meet and not abuse in the future, is not dishonestly. Its manners, and good stragegy. Especially for the gay guy who might otherwise not be abused.
This is a gay rights site. Neither a religous or athiest one. And we were dealing with three people who hold to a sad form of the faith, and who will just disregard anything we say is we start off with “your god is crap”, so, I addressed them on their ground. It was about engaging them, NOT feeling good about myself and my views.
Can you say that right now?
Now…being who they are, they will think there is some division between us, which is ridiculous. We will both be working as hard or harder for the rights of gay people after this. They cannot understand the idea of disagreeing agreeably. Thats sad, but, in the long run, it plays in our favor.
Deep down, they are, I suspect, a bit surprised none of us has, or ever will say “wow…tell me more about Uganda and its paradise land, and how I can not be gay any more! Please”. We all know that aint gonna happen.
I am here to fight for gay rights. I respect people of no faith, and other faiths. I also learned, long ago, that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. THAT is something everyone should think about.
Priya, it just that if you say very simple things inaccuratly how can I trust your more involved arguments?
In the story it was a test of trust. God said don’t eat of that fruit. Satan claimed God is unfair and they now have a choice.
“Makyui, and also Priya, like it or not, most of this world is made up of people with a religous identity, not those without it.
Yes.
“To tell someone that their view of God is wrong can be jarring. They may think you misguided, and enter a conversation with you. Then, you have a chance. To tell them that their is no God, if they truly believe their is, just makes you look like a nut and a fool in their eyes.
People dont listen to people they consider nuts and fools.”
Possibly, but the same could be said about people who believe in the Evil Reptilian Overlords infiltrating the world’s governments in order to enslave us. If they ask me if I don’t believe, I’m going to say that no, I don’t believe. If they ask why, I’m going to say that there isn’t evidence. If they think I’m a fool after that, then there’s nothing I can do about it.
“I have seen those kids, in the ER, quietly singing hymns…rocking back and forth, for comfort. I speak from personal experience Priya.”
I gotta butt again. This actually doesn’t compare very well. Your previous example was a child who was afraid of being homosexual because his religion told him that was bad. A better example would be a child who had just lost her (non-christian) mother/sibling/friend and was afraid that she was now in Hell because she didn’t believe.
Telling a grieving child that Heaven isn’t real might be assholish, but what about telling a grieving child that Hell isn’t real?
“and Mikyui, it was his athiesm that lead him to see humans as purely animals, and as animals to believe that we are basicly here to breed, so yes, it WAS his athiesm that lead him to that opinion of homophobia”
No, that was his belief that animals are only meant to breed that lead to that.
Atheism is simply a lack of a belief in a god. That doesn’t necessarily lead to the belief that animals are only supposed to procreate.
Gene, to answer your question–I would never walk up to anyone and say that if I wanted to actually have a conversation and change their mind. If you just say “you believe in crap” then people will shut down. I didn’t leave Mormonism over anything that any one person said–it was a slow realization of the fact that the church lied about things–first it was the Equal Rights Amendment, then black people and the civil rights movement then I realized I was gay and went into therapy with a church therapist who tried to turn me straight. After years of praying, aversion therapy, shock therapy etc… I was left still gay but very messed up and left the church partly just from rage. It wasn’t until I was out of the church that I found out some of the beliefs (they don’t tell you the REALLY crazy stuff untill you’re completely entrenched) and came to see that it wasn’t just what they did to me but that they are also just wrong. I didn’t come to atheism immediately either I tried various other churches and belief systems and gradually came to believe that there is no reason to believe in any God–certainly not one that takes an interest in the daily lives of human beings. But, that’s another story.
But, although I am an atheist and will discuss and argue the point when I see fit I don’t feel the need to stop anyone from finding their own way unless they try to prevent me from living my life as I choose.