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Janet Boynes is an avowed “ex-lesbian” running a ministry in Minneapolis. She is affiliated with the Exodus Church Association, which works to have people “pray away the gay”.
On the Oprah Winfrey Network show, Our America with Lisa Ling, Boynes touted her “ex-gay” ministry. Yet, the one person she put forth as a success story — Christian — was super-gay and admitted to still being attracted to men.
Boynes ministry is a joke that confuses stereotypes with legitimate science. She thinks putting on a dress (or making Christian take off his) makes a person heterosexual.
This is both a distortion of homosexuality and a parody of heterosexuality.
The bottom line is that Boynes is about nothing more than peddling her book. If she had real success stories to show — than why weren’t they featured on national TV?
Maybe, because Boynes is a charlatan and a false for profit prophet?
Of course, Boynes’ failure is not unique at Exodus International. The entire “ex-gay” program is based on changing behavior through bizarre techniques. It has nothing to do with genuinely altering one’s sexual orientation, as John Aravosis eloquently pointed out on America Blog. According to Aravosis:
So basically these are celibacy groups. Nothing more. But they call themselves “ex-gay” simply for political reasons, since it helps them undermine our civil rights. Really pitiful. And it again begs the question of why these admitted phonies are permitted to have an iPhone app when hate groups who targets Jews, blacks and other minorities are not permitted apps?
good job on this Wayne. I agree,I just say it nicer.
http://canyonwalkerconnections.com/2011/03/pray-the-gay-away-lets-talk/
Planet Boynes, Lost in Space.
Agreed!!!
What a joke indeed. I look forward to the day when some GLBT people do not hate themselves and resort to this sort of nonsense.
Excellent video Wayne. Lisa Ling did less than a high school journalist would do. Why is it that 100% of the people these ex-gay programs parade around were former druggies or ultra promiscuous with major problems? I never heard of Exodus or any of these scam programs showcasing an ex-gay fire captain straight, ex-gay surgeon straight, or ex-gay software engineer. Why is that? Almost every one is a former drag queen druggie who then goes on to make ‘ex-gay’ their sole profession (like Amway or something).
Another very odd thing about the Lisa Ling piece. Exodus and I’m sure Janet’s program take appearances and mannerisms very seriously. The guy named Ethan even said he was making a concerted effort to become more masculine. But that was an obvious lie. I have no experience in the b******t field but instantly I could have told the guy: “hey you might want to drop the piercings, frosted fancy hairdo, pastel fashionized shirts, etc.” That would have taken all of 1 minute. Had not a single ex-gay counselor given them feedback on this? It makes no sense.
Finally another absurd part was when Janet bragged about her kid being celibate for 4 years and the other guy Ethan saying he is still a virgin at 28. This brings up an OBVIOUS question that idiot Lisa never asked. Surely both Christian and Ethan have masturbated several thousand times over those years. They were not fantasizing about giraffes in order to climax. They were fantasizing about nude men. So if they are reaching climax several times a week to explicit gay images, how in the f*ck does that qualify as “ex-gay”? There are numerous passages in the Bible that specifically address that if you THINK about something, it is as sinful as doing it. How do Janet and Alan Chambers explain that?
Finally, an investigation should be conducted on what Lisa Ling’s agenda was. Why was her reporting so superficial and unprofessional? Did someone inside the fraudulent industry prompt her to produce the infomercial? Is her spouse a fundie? A regular person of average intelligence just doesn’t go out to report on Exodus and somehow remain totally blind to the insanity of it. Lisa had a clear agenda to soften Exodus’ image and promote them as loving and embracing of gay people. Why did she intentionally perpetuate that dangerous lie?
Did you notice that the congregation consisted of less than 10?
I theoretically support ministries like Exodus. But I would agree the whole enterprise is filled with problems–that are heavily driven by homophobia and politics. Given that–the real issue is not with persons such as portrayed in the LLing video.
Look–this is not a 2-sided issue. There are folks all over the map on this multi-faceted issue. The reason they are all over the map is because no genius among us has arrived. We all talk as if we are the end-all; when in reality it probably takes all of us to begin to capture the full extent of the questions and the answers.
Maybe it is possible Lisa Ling saw a legitimate quest and story that needed to be portrayed. Portraying it does not mean she advocates that these folk carry all the answers. Maybe she thinks they are just bringing forth 1% of the overall question that is not adequately portrayed. Who knows?
But I think it high time we started listening to each other. When we do not–we tend to show ourselves as having the same kind of “win-at-all-costs,” “disingenuous,” and dishonest agendas as those you criticize.
“I theoretically support ministries like Exodus.”
What the heck does that mean? Do you theoretically support skin bleaching for African-Americans to more fully embrace Christian Caucasian culture?
“There are folks all over the map on this multi-faceted issue. The reason they are all over the map is because no genius among us has arrived. We all talk as if we are the end-all”
What the hell? Do you believe in racial equality? Does that make you a hypocritical, self-righteous genius? And should we be instead investigating and listening equally to all those who believe Mexicans are dirty, Blacks are lazy, and Asians are poor drivers? Should we seriously consider the hundreds of viewpoints on race, genetics, intelligence, etc because how could anyone possibly know the answer? Give me a mutherf’ing break!
@michelle
People like LTL have bought into the lie that there is some sort of scientific argument over reparative therapy. These are the same people who have bought into the lie that there is a scientific argument over evolution, or over climate change. They are phenomenally gullible, and it’s sad.
Poor Christian. I hope that he soon finds freedom from the destructive “ex-gay” lifestyle.
@LTL:”Look–this is not a 2-sided issue. There are folks all over the map on this multi-faceted issue. The reason they are all over the map is because no genius among us has arrived. We all talk as if we are the end-all; when in reality it probably takes all of us to begin to capture the full extent of the questions and the answers.”
No, wrong. The mainstream in most developed countries and many developing ones for that matter, has a consensus opinion that being gay is an innate immutable state that is normal and healthy for that individual. It is their homophobic families and peers and religions who make them unhealthy. The ‘map’ is clear and published online for everyone gay kid coming out to see the great stories of happiness and joy that a life being yourself can bring.
There is one dark corner of the Map where someone has printed ‘Here Be Ex-gay Dragons’. It’s not a happy place but thankfully not that many people go there now.
There is no DEBATE. There is no QUESTION. There is no DOUBT except in the minds of the sad, desperate souls who think God condemns them for who he made them. That is why there is no LISTENING going on. Would you listen to the KKK? Or to the secessionists who wanted to retain slavery? Or to to the Nazis? Were the Nazis maybe 1% right? Maybe we can own black slaves 1% of the time?
No, people are not ‘all over the map’. You need to decide where you stand and take a position, what is right and true. Reparative therapy is wrong, wrong, wrong and they lies about being gay.
Lovetruthlove, you are a bad person, immoral, a bigot on a massive scale, and there is NOTHING you have to offer worth listening to.
Educated people (thus the vast majority of the business community) wont touch you with a ten foot pole.
The Business communinty is of the same opinion by and large. (Note the old FOOL who founded Chick Filet…however you spell it, being Disinvited froma CHAMBER OF COMMERCE MEETING. Business people want nothing to do with bigots like him, or you. It is bad for business to be seen as an undeucated bible thumping bigot)
The REAL and BETTER churches have moved past your inferior theology. You should do the same.
There is nothing to learn from the KKK, anti semites, those who say it is ok to beat women, or PEOPLE WHO THINK LIKE YOU DO ABOUT US.
GOOD people are NOT “all over the map” on any of the above issues. Learn that.
Note. in above post, after making reference to educated people, I meant to write the next sentence in () as “thus the majority of the university and education communbity and establishment, but was already thinking of the business community.
Lovetruthlove (sic) people like you remind me of things I sometimes forget; how blind fundamentalists can be, how self rightous and self deluded, and how much damage you still do to innocent people. In you honor, I have just made a rather generous donation to my local GLBT youth center.
People like you serve one perpose with your posts; you give the occassional visiter here, such as one of my cousins last year who read posts by a person like you, reason to finally say “Wow…my gay relatives have to put up with people like this, and I have not been there to support them. I need to accept them as they are and grow up”.
For THAT, and for reminding me to work ever harder to make sure no more people get messed up by emotional and religious bigotry/bad science (not that any medical group in the world calls it science) ever again, I thank you.
I still would love to start an “ex-straight” program. Just to p**s those fundies off. Reparative therapy “works” only insomuch as the brain is programed to avoid harmful stimulus (which is what they do, with god hates you, I think I have even heard they go as extreme as electric shocks but that might of been But I’m a Cheerleader)
Hatelieshate said “Maybe it is possible Lisa Ling saw a legitimate quest and story that needed to be portrayed.”.
Trying to change a harmless aspect of oneself to please hateful bigots and an imaginary god is not a legitimate quest. The story that needs to be told is the sham organizations like Exodus are and the harm they do.
David said “Reparative therapy “works” only insomuch as the brain is programed to avoid harmful stimulus (which is what they do, with god hates you, I think I have even heard they go as extreme as electric shocks but that might of been But I’m a Cheerleader)”.
That may have been in “But I’m a Cheerleader”, but it has been actually used in the past in the real world to “cure” gayness.
Ok see I thought it had been used. See if you keep shocking someone they will pretty much say whatever you like
THIS is what is called a “Success”? This is nothing more than celibacy. It is certainly nothing new; many people practice it whether voluntarily or not. Such a heavy personal struggle against his own feelings – what a tragedy! Yet, she (the no-nothing) has convinced him (and obviously others) that this struggle will……….what? Lead to a better life? Get you into heaven? Make you feel good, better, best? OR none of the above! How sad.
LTL mentions something about the “full extent of questions and answers”. All of the questions are foisted upon the condemned and gullible by such charlatans as this woman and associated organizations. It is a fact that all of the criticisms and condemnation that gay people face come from religious dogma, doctrine, churches, biblical passages as interpreted by those with a money agenda(don’t even bother arguing with that one), and the long-held beliefs that they have, for generations, planted in the minds of the American public. All that love s**t is smoke and nothing more.
There is no need for questions here. It is life, plain and simple. You have a sexual orientation and I have a sexual orientation. You live your life and I’ll live mine. We all take our chances and make our choices. I don’t want to intrude in your life; you don’t intrude in mine. What could be simpler? In other words Christians: mind your own f*****g business and let people seek their own happiness. What is not so obvious about that?
“I theoretically support ministries like Exodus” in the sense that I believe there are many persons engaged in homosexual relationships that desire to change their relational patterns and can receive useful support in doing so. Thats all.
I know little about Exodus. From what I’ve heard–my attitude is that about 80% of it should be tossed out the door.
I don’t blame folks for being angry at them or being angry with someone like me.
However, last time I looked in the mirror–I noticed I am a human being and enjoy life. I enjoy people I disagree with. I prefer to enjoy and love gay persons in my life or on this blog.
I don’t mind if Gene works all the harder for the agenda he wishes to accomplish because of my comments. I presume he will do so because that is his commitment and hope he finds joy in doing so–and doesn’t just need someone like me to motivate him.
Because I disagree with you doesn’t mean I don’t think I have something to learn; or that I don’t need to change; or that I have nothing to give.
” It is a fact that all of the criticisms and condemnation that gay people face come from religious dogma, doctrine, churches, biblical passages as interpreted by those with a money agenda(don’t even bother arguing with that one), and the long-held beliefs that they have, for generations, planted in the minds of the American public. All that love s**t is smoke and nothing more.” Gianni
You convey a set of ethics about human sexual relations. Every society consisting of more than one person in the history of human kind has done so. Because other people confront those same issues does not mean they are trying to hoist something on you anymore than you are trying to hoist something on them. But societies do this. For persons whose lives are formed by Sesame Street or by Martin Luther–they will bring their worldview into the conversation. It doesn’t really work very well for any of us to tell the other one to essentiall shut-up. Honestly–would you really want me as a neighbor if I just conformed all my thoughts and beliefs to yours. Maybe I enjoy the blue sky too.
““I theoretically support ministries like Exodus” in the sense that I believe there are many persons engaged in homosexual relationships that desire to change their relational patterns and can receive useful support in doing so. Thats all.”
Where do you get that asinine notion? Seriously, you need to realize that your pastors/overlords/religious leaders LIE TO YOU, or they don’t know any better. Either way, there’s a huge disconnect with reality.
“I know little about Exodus.”
Well then, why don’t you do some research on this website, right here? The one you’re on.
“Honestly–would you really want me as a neighbor if I just conformed all my thoughts and beliefs to yours.”
No, but if you didn’t respect the dignity and yes, sanctity, of my marriage, just as I would respect yours, then I would hope you would put the house on the market and go back to the exurbs where you belong.
lovetruthlove, I would suggest it’s a bad idea to defend an organization you know nothing about.
lovetruthlove, I’m going to go Daniel one better–I think it’s a bad idea to comment on things you know nothing about.
Also, what does your being a “human being” have to do with anything? Does you being a “human being” mean that you think people shouldn’t be able to call you out when you say something stupid about a subject that you have proven you know little to nothing about?
I get that you’re a religious person and even though you’re trying not to seem homophobic your words like “agenda” and “homosexual relationship” kind of suggest otherwise.
It’s great you like some gay people–now you might want to consider that they might know a little bit more about this subject than you.
Hatelieshate said ““I theoretically support ministries like Exodus” in the sense that I believe there are many persons engaged in homosexual relationships that desire to change their relational patterns and can receive useful support in doing so.”.
You’re blind to the problem here. These people have been coerced into believing they should change their “relational patterns”. Coerced by a rejecting society that tells them they aren’t acceptable unless they are heterosexual, by being told they’ll be eternally tortured for being in a loving and beneficial same sex relationship. If it weren’t for the negative message from people like you they’d never desire change and never choose to live a loveless life or create a heterosexual family doomed to be broken by reality. It is a travesty of justice that people like you encourage or turn a blind eye to the destructive message that gay people should change.
LTL, I’m LOL.
seriously, i love it hwen you people show just enough education to put a setence together and make a point, but not enough to follow it through.
Think.
They are demonstrably wrong on the they say is really true, so much so that YOU say 80% of it should be tossed.
Since this organization claims to represent God’s will and truth, yet lie a great deal, which isn’t all that godly, have a definite political agenda which they deny having, and you can’t trust 80% of what they say…
Then why on earth would you trust the other 20%?
Or as i said to Jones and yarhouse regarding their study of the efficacy of ex-gay propaganda– excuse me, their study of ex-gay success rates–
If your methods to produce change only produce results that barely register (13%), and the results are at best and in your words, complicated, ambiguous, and difficult…
Why would I believe a) that change is possible, and b) that change is possible by your methods?
“Then why on earth would you trust the other 20%” Ben
I agree with at least 20% of what Newt Gingrich says. I agree with at least 20% of what Barney Frank says. It isn’t really a matter of trust. Actually, if you read my comments I don’t think I even advocated for or defended the org. I just referenced it as a way to clearly identify what I think.
Within every “helping” profession I have been exposed to, there have been persons aspiring to leadership that were really trying to help themselves. In seminary there were persons clearly not well enough to care for hurting persons. Same in education. Same in social work. Chemical dependency counseling–full of dry (or not dry) drunks. Different professions do great jobs or lousy jobs at weeding folk out–or getting folk well so they can draw on their experience.
In this field there is 1% professionalism (my perception). Because the church base for these ministries is fighting a socio-theological-ideological-political battle they undergird ministries like Exodus–and fail themselves to even confront the issues.
I agree it profoundly damaging–and that the damage costs lives.
I have had two friends running Exodus connected ministries and neither were “fit” in my thinking (not even taking any issues around their sexuality into account).
In short “lovetruthlove” is meant to communicate that those of us who do not accept same-sex marital unions as moral (that is not to deny the goodness and dignity within them. An analogy for my standards is in the African church where many Christian households are polygamous. I do not accept polygamy as moral–but that does not mean there is not goodness in those marriages–and teh most moral thing might mean for those marriages to continuein tact.) have largely failed to walk out what we call “truth” in love. Biblically, truth cannot live aside from love. We can’t even claim to assert truth if it hasn’t been walked out in love. Further, if we have walked it out and understood it, when it is proclaimed it must take a background to love.
I believe the nature of our sexual/relational orientations have many characteristics–not just ‘gay’ or ‘straight’. And even the gay/straight characteristics are multi-faceted and more on a continuum than an either/or/both multiple choice answer.
It is no more helpful to contend “You are immutably gay” than to contend “You cannot be immutably gay–you must be heterosexual.” I understand that in short when one has been told, “You are queer and condemned to hell” one has little response to make other than to say “I reject that. If I am queer–then queer has the dignity and goodness of any other person.”
But in the scope of things, dividing the population into two camps throwing bombs at each other does a disservice to understanding and democracy. And splitting humanity into two “sexual orietation camps” largely denies the complexity of human sexuality. Combined–these two artificial wars both cripple our ability to address the ethical, theological, social, political, psychological, spiritual, economic and legal questions.
Dividing into these two sets of camps disquises that we likely are in agreement on about 80% of the matter. Whose interests are we serving when we launch bombs at each other.
@lovetruthlove
You have actually inadvertently revealed yourself as an Exodus water-carrier. Only Exodus freaks use words like “relational.” It’s one of their buzzwords. Believe me, I’ve dated enough of their “graduates” to know.
@lovetruthlove
Also, no, we are not in agreement about 80% of anything. You live in a (falsely constructed fantasy) world where Exodus actually has something of value to say. In the real world, every major medical and mental health association has condemned what they do as harmful. There is no “discussion,” so stop pretending both sides deserve respect. We’re not here to make nice nice and find out how we can all love each other. I personally don’t give a damn about “reconciliation” or any other life-wasting crap like that. We’re not ever going to work together, unless you embrace reality. Give us a ring when you do.
lovetruthlove–I’m glad you finally just admitted to your anti-gay feelings. It makes it much easier for the rest of us.
lovetruthlove, quite honestly, all that circular stuff you just wrote comes down to “I think gay people are bad.” But, like Becky, I’m glad you finally let your bias shine through without quite as much pretense of being loving.
Thank you for your measured words. however, there is this:
“dividing the population into two camps throwing bombs at each other does a disservice to understanding and democracy.”
I don’t recall tossing the first bomb. What i know is that Christianity in particular, and organized religion in general, has been waging a war of unrelenting hostility towards gay people for 1700 years, based upon some very very shoddy reasoning and translations.
you are entitled to believe that acting on the gay is immoral. You are not entitled to denigrate my life, restrict my civil rights, criminalize me, demonize me, deny me what you accept for yourself, or enshrine your religious beliefs into laws that disadvantage me and millions of people just like me.
Or toss bombs at me and mine.
If that is what you (a generic you, not you in particular) plan on doing, Expect some bombs in return.
And there is this: “It is no more helpful to contend “You are immutably gay” than to contend “You cannot be immutably gay–you must be heterosexual.”
Actually, i have to disagree here. There is a difference between the two statements. One is true, the other is propaganda.
The first statement, for me at least, is quite true. I have repsonded heterosexually, but that was in my youth and i was curious. By no stretch of the imagination am i heterosexual, even slightly so, nor could I ever be. Unless you are among the truly gay– or the truly straight– you don’t know what you are talking about.
“In short “lovetruthlove” is meant to communicate that those of us who do not accept same-sex marital unions as moral (that is not to deny the goodness and dignity within them. An analogy for my standards is in the African church where many Christian households are polygamous. I do not accept polygamy as moral–but that does not mean there is not goodness in those marriages–and teh most moral thing might mean for those marriages to continuein tact.)”
Ummm WTF? Seriously are you smoking something? Polygamy isn’t readily accepted in many churches I know of. So maybe you’re not anti-gay just dumber than a box of rocks…that or your higher than kite. I mean I’m giving you an out of the being anti-gay just say it “I’m stupid and don’t really know wth I’m repeating so I will sit quietly and learn”
this guy that is supposed to be trying to live more as a transformed heterosexual,isn’t even enjoying his life..he is in total misery and agnony because he is trying to be someone he wasn’t created to be.
he is missing out on all the great things life in his..horrible struggle to not..sin and please god.
“I don’t recall tossing the first bomb.” Ben in Oak
Agree.
“quite honestly, all that circular stuff you just wrote comes down to “I think gay people are bad.” Daniel
Does every commentary regarding this issue necessarily lead to answering a question, “Are gay people good?” Maybe if we did not structure our questions, answers, how we speak and how we listen so that every observation boiled down to an answer to that question–then we might converse and relate and journey together–
My starting point is the dignity of every person rooted in a good Creator; and that goodness/evil is defined only by a standard and the standard is God; I don’t know how this sounds but I frankly can’t imagine seeing you as not having dignity/worth that would justify me giving my own life for. To be unwilling would be a strike against my own dignity.
“I’m glad you finally just admitted to your anti-gay feelings.” Becky
What are you referencing? I am not sure what an anti-gay feeling or a pro-gay feeling is. I don’t know that I feel particulaly pro or anti about men about women about tall people about short people. I am not an enthusiastic lover of people and filled to the brim with gratitude. In general I would say my dominant feeling towards people is desiring to treat every person with dignity and compassion. At least among my network of friends and family I don’t think I have different feelings about their dignity, or different feelings about my own desire to be part of their lives based on their sexual behavior or relationships.
lovetruth…, “Does every commentary regarding this issue necessarily lead to answering a question, “Are gay people good?”
My statement that your words mean “gay people are bad” is different than asking the question “are gay people good”. And I stand by my statement. No one is asking you to give your life. And “the standard is God” is meaningless to me. I see too much bad done in the name of God by people who claim to be full of God’s love to be taken in by that.
lovetruthlove, you wanted to know what I’m referencing:
In short “lovetruthlove” is meant to communicate that those of us who do not accept same-sex marital unions as moral…
This is a quote for you and even though you tried to soften your words following this as far as I’m concerned you just stated that same-sex marital unions are not moral–that’s anti-gay and you can talk up a blue streak trying to justify your bigotry but you can’t deny it.
“Lovetruthlove”, you are immoral, a bigot, and no better than any NAZI or Klansman.
You should not have the right to say what you do, and anyone who supports ideas you do and organizations such at Exodus in ANY way is a w***e.
Yes. You are lower than a w***e. w****s do not hurt people by supporting the desruction of their happiness and dignity by sending them to organizations that will emotionally abuse them, like EXODUS. THey just have sex for money. They are far, far more moral than you.
This is not written in anger. Or for shock. I even went outside and thought about it before I decided whether to be so honest. What I write, I mean.
I loath you, for you hurt people whom I love. I loath you for your stupidity, and lack of knowledge, and arrogance in thiking that you have ANYTHING to offer us.
YOU DO NOT DESERVE RESPECT.
THERE IS NOT DISCUSSION.
ANYONE,YES ANYONE, WHO THINKS LIKE YOU DO, IS AN INTELLECTUAL FAILURE.
YOU ARE, AND WILL INCREASINGLY BE, CLASSED WITH, AND TREATED LIKE, ANTI SEMITES, KLANSMEN, AND SKINHEAD ARYANS IN THIS SOCIETY, AND IT WILL BE JUST.
Learn you place.
When you look in the mirror, you see a failed life. And deep down, you know it.
And no, I was not as active as I was in working against evil, but seeing evil in the words and person of you, makes we work harder to fight it. I would rather work on other things. I am not,as you suggested, working on these issues because they brought me joy. But, your evil, our immorality, means I cannot work at he homeless shelter I had hoped to. No, I will be working instead with a group working to raise more money to support a group that helps people who are recovering from being messed up by ex gay ministries.
No, I am not doing what I do now from joy, but because I have been reminded of inferior people like you who make the world a worse place.
Hatelieshate said “Does every commentary regarding this issue necessarily lead to answering a question, “Are gay people good?” Maybe if we did not structure our questions, answers, how we speak and how we listen so that every observation boiled down to an answer to that question–then we might converse and relate and journey together”.
What a crock of BS. “Are gay people good?” is central to the issues you keep bringing up, that you support Exodus and see same sex marriages as immoral. If you don’t want people to answer that question then stop asserting that gay people are bad.
Hatelieshate “My starting point is the dignity of every person rooted in a good Creator; and that goodness/evil is defined only by a standard and the standard is God”.
No, the standard is harm, your god is imaginary and thus irrelevant. The essence of morality is “Do whatever you want, but harm no one.”. Loving gay relationships are by definition moral, your condemnation of those relationships is by definition immoral.
Hatelieshate said “I am not sure what an anti-gay feeling or a pro-gay feeling is.”.
Its one thing to lie to us, but at least stop lying to yourself. Your support for exodus and your claim that gay marriages are immoral is very anti-gay and to suggest you don’t know that is preposterous.
Isn’t Exodus like someone who decides you need a wake-up-call at 3AM, so they throw a rattlesnake in your bed, and then after you are bitten and in pain from the venom, they offer to sell you coffee and delicious danish to help keep you awake and your mind off the pain. And why do they do all this? Because they love you, of course.
Because this society has simultaneously valued heterosexual marriage and hated homosexuals does not mean one caused the other. Some societies have elevated single celibacy or homosexuality to be superior to hetersexual union.
If I deem anyone that looks at a woman as being something different than a man as being a sexist, hateful bigot–then I am stuck seeing all the persons, societies and languages of the world that distinguish between the two as being hateful.
Is it impossible for someone to view the fact I am a single parent as not the ideal for my children–and still not hate me?
There are issues of civil rights. There are issues about what our social ethics regarding varied kinds of sexual behavior and sexual relationships and family forms. There are issues about social labeling, stereotyping, categorizing and hating. There are issues about how much freedom we will grant veried communities to practice different forms of relationships (e.g. Mormans).
I think we tend to conflate these issues. I think it is possible for any person here to disagree with my ethical views or think any detail of my life is wrong–and yet view me and treat me with all the love and dignity they grant anyone else.
Why is it impossible for someone to view homosexual marriage (and of course there are significant voices in gay community who do not think marriage ought be the esteemed form) as either different than heterosexual marriage, or less-preferred, or wrong–and simultaneously treat persons with grace, love, dignity and justice??
If you think that the case–do you contend the only persons you esteem are those whose every behavior and belief aligns with what you deem to be good??
Whether or not I comment further let me at least express I am grateful for the generosity of those who both vociferously disagree with my words; who find them of extreme hurt, harm, and hate; and yet took the time to respond. I am sure to do so was to expend energy you would have been happy to give elsewhere.
loveblahblahblah, whether Boynes is “good” or not isn’t really an issue. She’s doing bad. Even if she believes what she’s doing is correct the results of her (and your) actions lead to continued suffering by the people they purport to help. The effects of her misguided ministry is bad and it doesn’t matter what her intentions are. The same with Ling, I’m sure she felt she was doing good but in her well meaning she misrepresented Exodus and groups like it and the ultimate effect of that could very well be more people who are hurting thinking that the cause is that they’re gay and getting involved with this soul crushing group.
Hatelieshate said “I think it is possible for any person here to disagree with my ethical views or think any detail of my life is wrong–and yet view me and treat me with all the love and dignity they grant anyone else.”.
When you think a core aspect of a person is immoral you certainly aren’t treating that person with the love and dignity you give to someone with whom you only have minor quibbles. That may be the correct thing to do in some cases, but when it comes to harmless gayness that is an evil attitude.
Hatelieshate said “Why is it impossible for someone to view homosexual marriage (and of course there are significant voices in gay community who do not think marriage ought be the esteemed form) as either different than heterosexual marriage, or less-preferred, or wrong–and simultaneously treat persons with grace, love, dignity and justice??”.
I’ts impossible because love dignity and justice demand that you accept all harmless behaviors, particularly those that benefit people by encouraging mutual support. It is never just, dignified, or loving to try to deny people the same rights you have.
Hatelieshate said “If you think that the case–do you contend the only persons you esteem are those whose every behavior and belief aligns with what you deem to be good??”.
I’ts a matter of degree. You can hate 5% of what a person is and still love the other 95% but that means you don’t have unconditional and total love for that person which is what you seem to want to claim one can. When you hate something that is a core aspect of a person (their gayness) there is no way you can claim that have unqualified love for that person.
You want to act in hateful ways towards LGBTs and yet have people grant that you are fully loving and just. No way am I going to buy that B.S. If you want to demonstrate full love and justice then accept that people have a moral right to do whatever they want as long as they aren’t harming others. If you want to demonstrate full love and justice then accept that gay and lesbians must have the same right to marry that you do.
[...] & Associates sells a book written by Twin Cities minister and self-proclaimed “ex-lesbian” Janet Boynes. This book chronicles her supposed journey “out of the lesbian lifestyle.” Next to the stack of [...]
[...] & Associates sells a book written by Twin Cities minister and self-proclaimed “ex-lesbian” Janet Boynes. This book chronicles her supposed journey “out of the lesbian lifestyle.” Next to the stack of [...]
[...] & Associates sells a book written by Twin Cities minister and self-proclaimed “ex-lesbian” Janet Boynes. This book chronicles her supposed journey “out of the lesbian lifestyle.” Next to the stack of [...]
Their is alot of hate coming from the above individuals about someone choice of change. It was love that changed her not anyone or anybody else. Where is the love that being shown here. Is that this not the reason you want your lifestyle to be accepted because you want to be love.
Truth is accepting people for who they are and because they choose. Is this not what your are saying. Hypocritical views and hate is being stated here. I hope this was not what you were trying to say. Who has the real agenda here.
There is a saying that we said back in the day when I was in school check yourself before you wreck yourself. What is done in the natural there is always going to be reprucssion in the spirtual believe that.
This is real truth!!!!!!
No, Barksdale, the problem is that there is no evidence that such claims of “change” are real or scientifically valid, but there is a lot of evidence that the idea of praying the gay away is consumer fraud and harms most of the people who go through it. Your definition of “hate” is very poor, as you seem to be finding “hate” in sarcastic comments, rather than from people who might speak the right Jesus language but yet destroy people and families for a living.
Your definition of “truth” needs some work too.
Barksdale, the people who hate are the ones who insist some people aren’t acceptable unless the do the hater’s bidding and live according to the hater’s dictates. We don’t try to tell any anti-gay bigots how to live, its your side that’s the haters, not us.
Barksdale, I will agree with one part of your post:
“Truth is accepting people for who they are”–these “ministries” need to accept gay people for who they are and stop trying to change them into something they’re not thereby ruining their lives and dooming them to loveless future.
[...] & Associates sells a book written by Twin Cities minister and self-proclaimed “ex-lesbian” Janet Boynes. This book chronicles her supposed journey “out of the lesbian lifestyle.” Next to the stack of [...]
[...] Janet Boynes Ministries Is a Big Gay Joke (49) [...]
My god! Your right! She’s not a lesbian! She’s really a gay man posing as a woman! A drag queen! My god if she’s not gay then I’m not gay! What a hideous creature…with that deep voice and macho ‘tude who is she kidding?! What a joke! Figures she’s a pal of congesswoman homophobe married to a gay man Bachman !!! What those two must get up to!!!! Just bec u wear a dress doesn’t make u straight you lying sack if garbage!