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Lisa Ling produced a segment on “ex-gay” ministries that missed the boat. She was factually inaccurate in several places and whitewashed Exodus International’s abominable record of harm and deceit. The most glaring error is when Ling portrays Exodus as a group that no longer makes false promises. She contrasts this alleged kinder and gentler Exodus with the harsher ministry of Janet Boynes.
It is amazing that Ling had no idea that Boynes is listed as a referral on Exodus’ website — meaning her intolerant message offering false hope is also that of Exodus. Ling also was duped into believing that Exodus does not try to “pray away the gay.” She obviously did not do her homework and review substantial evidence to the contrary.
In this video, Truth Wins Out set the record straight and urged the Oprah Winfrey Network (OWN) to pull the show from re-airing until the factual errors are expunged from the video. Truth Wins Out believes that reporters ought to do their homework and research a topic before broadcasting misinformation on national television. In the case of Our America with Lisa Ling — the ball was dropped and a fallacious report aired that undermined efforts to stop the harm.
Gene, please, your ignorance annoys me. It actually astounds me. A large majority of Christians believe that the Old Testament has been fulfilled by the New Testament. When Jesus Christ came into the world, he came with a message of love. ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength, this is the first and the greatest commandment, and the second is like it – Love your neighbour as yourself.’ I’m just gonna go through the points you made 1 at a time.
1. If you believed ALL the Bible, you would have a lot of faith. And if you acted on the words of the Bible, you would be like Jesus.
2. You would not stone people, because that is not love. Again, the new message of Jesus was to love our neighbour. Also, the Old Testament law described stoning a person for doing harm to your neighbour. You have to realize that they weren’t as advanced as us. They didn’t have any prisons for people who stole, commited murder, etc.
3. Again, context is big. Do you even know anything about mixing two fibers to make clothing, or are you just spouting off? It makes a shoddy material cloth, doesn’t wash well, and 100% of any cloth material makes a better quality clothing letting it last longer. Why be wasteful?
4. Christians do eat shrimp you oblivious nut. Unless you meant they can’t, in which you would be getting closer. However you’re original point is right in this one, Christians are allowed to eat shrimp. Christians are not restricted in their eating the same way Jews are. That said, Christians should watch what they eat and should not be gluttonous, because their bodies are a temple.
5. I’m not sure if you’ve heard of exegesis and hermeneutics before, but look that up so you can become an educated person Then you would know that this last point is just as ridiculous as the other 4 that you have pointed out. Women were not considered persons at this point in history, so women would not be listened to by men. It was not their turn to speak up. It is sad that it has taken so long for them to gain equality with men, but now that it is here I am glad.
People pick and choose parts of Christianity and use them as defenses against what many Christians believe. (look above at Ben’s post for an example).
@Ben
I hate that a sinner sins. That fits under neither of what you their, and I believe that my method is correct. People say that Jesus never speaks of homosexuality, but in a sense he does. In Matthew 19 it reads “And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.””
God intends for a man and woman to get married and become 1 flesh. The consumation of marriage is something that two lesbians and two gays cannot do with each other. They cannot have children through sex. It’s impossible. God made Adam and Eve together in the Garden of Eden, and it was good.
As a Christian I cannot agree with homosexuality based on the above, and it is considered a sin to go against that. Do I expect you to believe what I believe? No. Do I wish that you could believe what I believe out of love for my fellow human being? Yes. Will anything I tell you change you ways? Probably not. Am I going to push you into being a Christian? No, the choice is yours and nothing I do will change that. I have a gay uncle, and I have learned not to judge. He is a sinner in the eyes of God, the same way I am a sinner in the eyes of God. I know that i can ask for forgiveness for my sins and I do, but he does not. I still love my uncle. It is hard to be in my position, because I want my uncle to be with me in heaven. If there is no heaven? Well I want to say that I did all I could because I truly loved my uncle and did what I believed to be best for him.
An alcoholic who refuses to ask God for forgiveness and seek help for his addiction is no different than a man who lives a life of homosexuality
As for the ridiculous claim that Christians would kill gays like the KKK killed blacks and Nazis killed Jews, that is ridiculous. What my hope for the future is is that everyone in the world would be Christian. Will that happen, I can guarantee no, but its an ideal. Killing people on a religious basis is never the answer, so that would have to be done by word of mouth.
Again, i am not here to judge, and am open to open-minded discussion. I hate bigotry. I have some views based on the faith I have, but I am willing to discuss any or all of them.
If you have any questions for me, or a comment, please ask me kindly. i come in peace, and I hope that you do the same.
Josh
There is nothing kindly or new in anything you have stated, Josh. It all boils down to the fact that you do not respect gay lives, believe that you have a mandate from God to disrespect gay lives (and look down on any non-Christian life), bandy about YOUR interpretation of the Bible thinking that somehow this makes you morally superior to us and anyone who doesn’t see it like you (how many freakin’ times do you think I have heard Christians spout “oh but at OUR church we REALLY believe what the Bible says”)…
… Your attitude makes me so angry I could spit. You don’t care about us or what we have to say about our lives, you have already made up your mind that nothing we say has any validity, and that you know who and what we are better than we do.
You might think you have stated some pretty piece of God’s love, but all I hear is what boils down to “f**k you faggot, go to hell.”
I hope that shocks you. Because that IS ultimately what you are saying. Spare me the “god loves you” crap because even you don’t care about that. Not really. “I come in peace.” No you don’t.
It’s b******t. You’ve come here to parade your misplaced sense of moral superiority. If you TRULY “come in peace” then you would understand why you little sermon is so infuriating. Instead of being so FULL of what you need to tell us, you would LISTEN to us. And I don’t mean nod and smile and then ignore the truth of our lives WHICH WE KNOW BETTER THAN YOU.
And do me one favor. Do NOT have the unmitigated gall to step aside and claim that you don’t judge us, that God does. You have judged us and believe yourself superior. Own it.
a*****e. (which in my opinion is a fair and just reaction to being ONCE AGAIN told by some religious person the how’s and why’s I’m such an immoral reprobate because of who I happen to be.)
“It is hard to be in my position, because I want my uncle to be with me in heaven.”
That’s the most despicable, disgusting hogwash I’ve heard tonight. You talk about love and kindness, and then talk about how your uncle deserves torment and punishment for all eternity just because he isn’t ashamed and constantly apologizing for the way he is. It’s a threat, and a horrible one. “Do what I say, or you will burn forever.” You can’t reason with people, so you threaten them and try to sway them with fear. Nasty.
You spout bible verses as though they mean s**t, when they don’t. Jesus also said that if you want to get into Heaven, you have to sell your belongings and give your stuff to the poor. But you aren’t doing that, are you?
So what about people who don’t get married, Josh? What about people who get married but don’t have a sexual relationship? And don’t tell me that they don’t exist, Josh, because they do. By the millions. I’m one of them. According to you, they do your god a disservice and would burn in Hell, too.
What about intersex people? Did you even know about intersex people, Josh? What do they do? Or are they just doomed to Hell no matter what? It’s not like your god hasn’t previously damned people to Hell just for being born.
Why is your god so fixated on sex, Josh? Sex and foreskins and hymens. Is he some kind of pervert?
You think it’s silly that Christians would kill gays like people killed Blacks or Jews, but guess what, Josh. They DID. It’s called the Holocaust. And it still happens today. It’s happening in Uganda. It’s happening in the US. Oh I know, those weren’t real Christians, but you’re wrong about that. Christians follow the Nicene Creed. They were just as Christian as you — and would probably argue that you aren’t Christian either. Their logic comes from the same bible as yours, and they claim to be doing the work of the same god as yours.
f**k your Adam and Eve fairytale. There’s no evidence whatsoever that it’s true at all. And it’s a disgusting tale. Your god, who supposedly knows all, places what amounts to two ignorant manchildren into a garden, tells them not to eat a fruit that’s kept within their reach while knowing full well that a snake is going to make them disobey, without warning them that a lying-a*s snake is going to try and make them be naughty. Then when it happens, he punishes the two people for disobeying him when they didn’t know it was wrong to disobey him, what with not knowing right and wrong, and all, so not only does he punish them FOREVER, he punishes their offspring who had absolutely nothing to do with it, FOREVER. What a petty, disgusting a*****e.
Oh but wait! Didn’t you know that he created Adam initially so that he’d pair up with an animal of his choosing? Maybe that means God actually wanted us to be bestialists instead. Maybe that’s why he got a twist in his knickers and decided to concoct this skeezy, weaselly plot to ensnare them into a life of eternal punishment while preserving his “nice guy” visage.
Here’s the thing, Josh. Your god knows everything. The past, the future. He knows everything that we do long before we do it. Before we’re born, even. He knows every thought we have, every decision we’re going to make, even before we make it. This means that everything we do is set in stone. Destined.
Which means that he knows which of us are going to Heaven and which of us are going to Hell, even before we’re born. So why doesn’t he do anything about it? Why doesn’t he make it so that nobody is gay, ever? Why doesn’t he make it so that nobody sins, ever? Why doesn’t he make it so that the people who go to Hell are never born? Why doesn’t he make it so that people aren’t eternally tortured for finite crimes like daring to love another human being?
What does your bible say about that?
Oh, wait, free will. Except he doesn’t actually give a s**t about free will. He certainly didn’t when he repeatedly hardened Pharaoh’s heart and forced him to keep the Hebrews as slaves, so that God could have a dick-waving contest and show off how awesome he is.
What an a*****e.
Your new testament was written long after Jesus was dead. NOBODY who wrote it was a direct witness to what happened. How do you know Jesus said anything that is attributed to him? How do you know he existed at all?
That’s right, you don’t, and neither does anyone else.
“If you believed ALL the Bible, you would have a lot of faith. And if you acted on the words of the Bible, you would be like Jesus.”
Isn’t that a good thing, though? I thought the whole point was that the more faith you had, the more awesome you were? When did having a lot of faith become something bad? Oh wait, it justifies picking and choosing.
“You have to realize that they weren’t as advanced as us. They didn’t have any prisons for people who stole, commited murder, etc.”
How the hell do you know? Do you think they’re stupid? They had exile. They had places to separate people from the rest of society. These people had advanced mathematics but they’re too dumb to figure out a prison system? Good grief.
“It is sad that it has taken so long for them to gain equality with men”
Yeah, it’s so sad, and yet your god could have said something about it. “Men and Women have the same capacity for greatness. You are all equals and must give everyone equal opportunity.” Whoops, guessed it slipped his mind while he was dishing out death sentences for people who work on the weekend.
So yeah, f**k you and your hatred and threats, and f**k your bible, and f**k your god. You think you know better than the millions of Christians who don’t have a problem with gay people, and you have no reason to believe so except your own arrogance and your own need to justify your own ignorant bigotry. What an a*s.
And yeah, by the way, f**k you for comparing homosexuality to alcoholism. Way to show what a smart guy you are, there. One is wholesome and healthy and the other is medically known to be harmful in all cases. Sorry, reality trumps superstition.
Josh, I might be willing to take you seriously if you provided some compelling evidence of your religion’s validity. You might even have a smidgen of credibility if you could demonstrate that the adoption of your religion came as a result of exhaustive comprehensive unbiased research into all of the world’s religions. Although the research would take many years, I don’t know how else anyone could legitimately conclude that a particular religion is the correct one. One outcome of the research could be to reject them all, and then invent a new one (lots of people have done that). Otherwise, I have to assume that you simply adopted the religion of your parents, or a prevalent religion in your geographic location, or maybe you just picked one that felt compatible with your personality. And, if so, your arguments come merely from indoctrination bolstered by the contents of a holy book. But all religions involve indoctrination and holy books, so why should I accept yours and reject the others?
You need to understand that if you had been born in Saudi Arabia, it is overwhelmingly likely that you would now be worshiping Allah, and extolling the Magic Truth of the Quran instead of the Magic Truth of the Bible. Or, if you had been born in Utah, it is overwhelmingly likely that you would now be extolling the “truth” of Joe Smith’s gold-plates tale.
Josh, as an ordained Elder in the Presbyterian Church, I am not only aware of exegesis, hermeneutics, and apologetics, I have taught them.
I am profecient in Koine, and Hebrew. My Latin is not what is should be, I admit. I also have degrees in history, with a heavy focus on the role the developement of Christianity played, particularly in the Eastern Orthodox form, of social and cultural development patterns in Eastern Europe and the Balkans after the fall of the Paleologis dynasty and Constantinople and the Rise of Kievian Russian Christianity.
My main personal focus is, of course, Reformed Theology, as I was raised a 5 point Calvinist.
So, so sorry my ignorance annoys and astounds you.
Your fundamentalist and dancing around with a collection of “well its SAYS that but it NOW means this” offends me. Mainly, because you sould like a lowly conservatve fundamentalist, and as a mainline Christian, I lowers me to have to explain the basics to you. Before you insult others, learn some manners child.
And, realize, the same “well that no longer applies” you were using, which WAS MY POINT (and you imply someone else is dim) applies to THIS (gay and lesbian inclusion in the church) issue also, Which, oh unthinking one, is WHY so many denominations, from the Presbyterians, the Lutherans, the United Church of Christ, the Episcopal Church, etc. etc. have, after great study and scholarship, in other words, the Exegesis of the oldest and most scholarly denominations in America, has lead them to Welcome Gay and Lesbian people into the life of the church, and to see us as what we are, not inherently sinful, but children of God, who are attracted to people of the same gender.
Can’t deal with it? Get a BETTER church.
You have NOTHING to teach me about Christiantiy.
And Josh, raise you standards.
I dont mean to be as insulting to you as you were to me, but you sound like a fundamentalist or Baptist (no insult meant to any American Baptists who may read this).
Really, you might try a branch of Christianity where one does not have to check brian parts above the medulla oblongata at the door when you enter the nave.
Your uncle deserves better than you by the way Josh.
Way better.
A couple of things:
To Priya and Ben in Oakland:
I’ve read your responses on many of the TWO posts, and I can’t thank you enough for your honesty and patience and convictions. You are to be commended.
To anyone and everyone else who might read this:
I am a teacher in the Minnesota area, and the area in which I teach elected Michele Bachmann. Having been raised in a fundamentalist Christian family, I have now moved so far in the other direction. I have seen first hand how a literal interpretation of the Bible has destroyed people, families, and the humanity of individuals. I experienced the guilt associated with my religion…in many different ways…even though I am not gay. When I see and hear the things Michele has done, I cringe. It makes me sick and heartbroken.
I believe it is our duty, as citizens of this country, to fight for equality for EVERY single person. I’m really tired of the “hate the sin,love the sinner” argument. To me, that is an excuse to remain apathetic on the issue. And, where is the humanity in that approach? I’ve always told my students that neutrality is never the route to take. It’s easy for someone to say, “I’m not racist,” but if you are not directly fighting to end racism, then what is the point? Or it might be easy to say, “I don’t have a problem with gays,” but do you stop people from making derogatory remarks about them?
The district in which I teach is also in the midst of a huge lawsuit regarding our “neutrality” policy in relation to GLBT students. In the past couple of years we have had numerous suicides by gay teens. Many of these teens have been bullied and singled out within the school setting. How in the world can anyone NOT stick up for these students and fight for their rights? It is saddening.
There are so many issues here, but it’s clear to me that religion is the crux of it. I love the quote by Mark Twain: “If Jesus were alive today, the last thing he’s be is a Christian.”
I can only hope that Michele Bachmann realizes that the real “shot heard round the world” is a public outcry against her prejudiced views and hypocritical actions.
Thank you, Stephanie, for your nice compliment. It means the world to me to know that I have reached someone. It’s why I write.