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Lisa Ling produced a segment on “ex-gay” ministries that missed the boat. She was factually inaccurate in several places and whitewashed Exodus International’s abominable record of harm and deceit. The most glaring error is when Ling portrays Exodus as a group that no longer makes false promises. She contrasts this alleged kinder and gentler Exodus with the harsher ministry of Janet Boynes.
It is amazing that Ling had no idea that Boynes is listed as a referral on Exodus’ website — meaning her intolerant message offering false hope is also that of Exodus. Ling also was duped into believing that Exodus does not try to “pray away the gay.” She obviously did not do her homework and review substantial evidence to the contrary.
In this video, Truth Wins Out set the record straight and urged the Oprah Winfrey Network (OWN) to pull the show from re-airing until the factual errors are expunged from the video. Truth Wins Out believes that reporters ought to do their homework and research a topic before broadcasting misinformation on national television. In the case of Our America with Lisa Ling — the ball was dropped and a fallacious report aired that undermined efforts to stop the harm.
Congratulations.
You’re a bigot. One of many definitions of a bigot is of someone who cannot except the non-reality of their beliefs about other people.
Comment by Ben in Oakland — March 15, 2011 @ 2:34 pm
Oh Nikki, I accept your beliefs–I just believe they’re bigoted. And my judgement of your beliefs is based on what you’ve said and what I’ve seen as the results of Exodus and similar groups so they’re not based on prejudice–they’re based on experience. I know and worked with people who were very damaged by this and other “ex-gay” organizations and sometimes the damage is staggering.
Nikki: “But thank God you don’t know where I live – I shudder to think what a radical would do to silence someone they consider a bigot!”
Sounds pretty victimy to me. Would you like some cheese with your whine?
Sarcasm = “But thank God you don’t know where I live – I shudder to think what a radical would do to silence someone they consider a bigot!”
Victim = “Thank goodness you don’t know where I live. I am always being hastled by radical gay activists that denounce my beliefs. I can’t stand it when I am called a biggot.”
See the difference?
Nikki– you are doing exactly what I would have hoped you wouldn’t do– take what I had to say out of its context to make it say something I didn’t. It’s a very typical FRC kind of a thing to do.
What I said was this.
“I know what the answers to all of these questions are. IF (empahasis added for clarity) you can still find a reason to believe that your pastor will be jailed, your church fined…
Congratulations.
You’re a bigot. One of many definitions of a bigot is of someone who cannot except the non-reality of their beliefs about other people.”
The crucial word is IF. As I said, I am looking for TRUTH. I am perfectly willing to be proven wrong.
What I am wondering about…
Are you?
The fact that everyone is arguing as opposed to finding common ground and being able to talk freely about their beliefs and perceptions is quite ridiculous. I don’t recall anyone here saying that they had a problem with homosexuals or their rights and yet everyone is arguing and attempting to one-up each other and prove each other wrong in their beliefs. There is no one belief system…you’ll never find it. Right and wrong is always relative to the time/society and culture. So why anyone is arguing about their differences as opposed to being able to express their thoughts on the issue. People keep firing their emotions and thoughts at the people behind the thought as opposed to saying. You know what we disagree, but here’s where we do agree and here’s what we can do. I just feel like people are talking through such an emotional filter that they don’t see it. It is alarming to me that so few people have understood the documentary as it was presented and it’s even more alarming that people are judging one another through a computer screen.
This is like a microcosm for the entire United States and it’s why people waste their time and are unable to get on the same page and really do anything. No one has said “I agree with Exodus and want to see them prosper.” No one has been pro-exodus. People have either have either been neutral and without harsh judgment or they have been against it, which seems like good enough grounds for a more positive conversation just based on the fact that no one has really expressed being for it. But as opposed to thinking in shades of gray people want to attack each other looking for some sort of black and white, right or wrong answer.
I mean the documentary is showing you the deeper darker parts of your society that is relatively unknown and approaching it in a non-judgmental fashion. I’m sure from Lisa Lang’s comments in the documentary as well as the post-documentary that she is opposed to Exodus. Nonetheless she approached it with open ears instead of marching in there looking to point the finger. If more people were like that then we could at least begin to open up some sort of dialogue that actually attacks the problems in our society. Running around and judging and bitching gets you nowhere.
Logic, I don’t want to find common ground with the ex-gay industry.
Sarcasm=Something that does not and never has worked in the printed word.
Logic, do you hear how illogical you are? When you say, “there is no one belief system…you’ll never find it.”
Okay — then take that up with the fundamentalists. This is their belief and they think anyone who does not hold their views is going to hell.
I’ll make you a deal. When you can get the fundies to find common ground on anything, come back here and we will listen.
In terms of finding common ground with people who think we are sick, perverted and sinful? What kind of common ground should we settle for — that we are only sort-of sick, perverted and sinful?
Really, you ought to think this through before you write.
Missing the point. Clearly, I was talking about all of us here and all of those that have varying beliefs and belief systems and are arguing but clearly have points on which they agree on. How far you are willing to stretch your own belief system is your own business but arguing with people that can agree with you on some of the basic points of your own beliefs is pointless.
Logic, I was forced into an organization very similar to this when I was a teenager. I don’t view these “belief systems” as benevolent or innocuous. These are dangerous programs. It goes beyond just a difference of opinion it goes into protecting other GLBT people.
Logic, do you hear how illogical you are? When you say, “there is no one belief system…you’ll never find it.”
It has nothing to do with logic it has to do with the real world and the truth. We are all never going to agree on everything. It won’t happen and has never happened over time. Humans have been arguing and going to war for this and that for as long as they’ve existed and it will continue.
and I never said you had to find common ground with the Exodus people. Don’t read into my comment more than what was actually said.
“Logic, I was forced into an organization very similar to this when I was a teenager. I don’t view these “belief systems” as benevolent or innocuous. These are dangerous programs. It goes beyond just a difference of opinion it goes into protecting other GLBT people.”
I’m sorry that you were forced into such an organization. But nonetheless who forced you? Family?
I don’t believe that Exodus is a “belief system” in and of itself. When I am saying “Belief system” I am referring to how each of us as individuals have our own belief systems which is why to people can be of the same religion or non-religion and interpret it and follow it differently. “Exodus” is as deep as the person running it and is only has power so long as gay people feel the need to change. But as far as I know a large portion of those people aren’t forced to be there.
At any rate i’m simply saying that most people on this little forum agree on some basic points and rather than argue about where we disagree we should focus on where we agree. You’ll never argue anyone into changing the basic points for their beliefs. But that doesn’t stop you from working with them if you share common ground.
Yes Logic, Family forced me in. I was fourteen and didn’t have a whole lot of choice in the matter. I was also raised in a cultish church so I didn’t have anyone outside the family to go to. And I can’t agree that Exodus is not a harmful group and that TWO shoudln’t continue to expose their lies.
Ben –
I do offer you my apology sir. I did not clarify my statement, making it seem as if you directly called me a bigot – which you did not. So I do apologize for giving that perception.
BTW – what is FRC?
But anyway I should have said that based on your statement –
“I know what the answers to all of these questions are. If you can still find a reason to believe that your pastor will be jailed, your church fined…”
Your questions were all asking for present day examples – and my statement clearly addressed the future:
My fear personally is that I don’t want to see a time where my pastor is thrown into jail for refusing to perform the ceremony.
I think you can see from the cases I cited in my previous posts – not to mention that there is current legislation in 2 different states trying to limit the way Muslims can practice their beliefs – that there is reason for concern.
Here is what I think Ben – I am not even sure if you are gay or not. But I could see someone like you and I sitting down at the table and coming up with something like The Civil Marriage Religious Freedom Act, SB 906. The ironic thing is when this was brought up in California – many churches backed off opposing same sex unions.
The sad thing is that the day where its possible for us to have calm, logical discussions doesn’t appear to be coming soon. Because even though you and I as individuals have been respectful of each other, we start the conversation and then some misguided Christian yells – “God hates Gays” – (which is completely not scriptural) and then a radical gay activist yells out “Go Home bigots” and we forget what we were really talking about.
Daniel –
Let me say this first – please understand that you are the first person I have ever talked to with this story – so I have been sarcastic at times on this board, but please know that nothing I am about to say is sarcastic – I truly want to know more about your experience.
You raise an interesting point – because all my comments regarding Exodus have been targeted towards adults who voluntarily go to Exodus, but I do believe the discussion needs to be more intense when it comes to children.
I’ve raised a now 22 year old – so I am picturing the thought process of a 14 year old. I know there was a case in Ohio where a Muslim girl ran away from home to Florida because she no longer wanted to be Muslim. Now in that case she won her freedom because she said to the courts that there was the threat of death for her conversion. I am not sure how radical your family was if you ever felt in physical danger – and if you did – I am so sorry.
But do you think that gay children should be given the right to emancipate themselves if they are being raised in a home where the parents do believe that homosexuality is a sin?
Nikki, do you know what happens to children when they run away from home or are emancipated? Especially gay children? Do you know what the psychological toll is to be raised in a home where your entire family–even your entire community views homosexuality as a sin? It’s a wonder any of us make it to adulthood–and then only to be screwed with further by groups like Exodus.
Exodus is not a benign group. What they do does not effect only adults–and even if it did they would still not be a benign group.
I appreciate that you feel for what I went through as a child. But you have to also understand that it continues to have ramifications on me as an adult, and that many of the people who find their way to Exodus only to be screwed over again came from a similar place I do.
There’s also another side to this–one that I saw over and over growing up which is the men and women who (sometimes even though they know the man they’re marrying is gay) marry a gay man or lesbian only to have their lives ripped apart when their spouse can no longer control their feelings.
One more thing, I actually know Becky. She’s been a friend for years and even though I think she goes to far sometimes I also know that she does it out of love for me and for others like me. And I agree with her that you can’t support groups like this and still claim not to be anti-gay. I’ve come to this place through experience and I thank whatever there is to thank that there is someone like Wayne doing this work.
[...] » Watch Wayne Besen’s response to the Our America ex-gay special (Truth Wins Out). [...]
Daniel -
I can appreciate your defending Becky – but it’s part of the problem. If I can’t talk to you, then how can I know your story? You asked me if I knew the psychological tolls – I’m not sure if you meant personal experience or what I have read. As I mentioned earlier, I do have a gay relative and a gay friend. Both families, of course, believe homosexuality is a sin. My relative is 40, with a partner of 5 years – and seems happy to me. We have a great relationship. My friend, I know has a great relationship with his parents, and though he is single he also seems happy.
My church is not an Exodus affiliate – so maybe you can help me understand if the problem is just the way they handle it. I’ll give you an example – we had a girl at our church come out to her mother. The mother did not handle it well at first. But my thought for the mother was I guess the same as my thought for everyone in this situation – which i guess most people here would think is wrong. First of all, she’s 15 – so she should not be having sex with anyone or involved in deep committed relationships with anyone. I think that is a huge problem in our society today – we let kids get involved in these intense relationships then they break up – so they’re divorced by 16! But anyway, the other thing is that as parents we can’t see our children only through the eyes of what they do – they are supposed to be loved unconditionally. And lastly I do believe as parents in this day and time our children are being given confusing message about sexuality – so we do have to not freak out and sometimes help them figure it out.
I guess even as a adult it seems hard to figure out exactly what LGBT is these days. And what you can say, what you can’t say. I read on here “gay lifestyle” is an absolute no-no, but then it gets confusing for me with what gay really is. I mean if someone mentions their attractions have changed is that okay, just as long as they don’t mention God. Or can you just fall in love with someone of the same sex and not be gay? I mean Ann Heche was part of this phenomanal lesbian couple – but now she is married with 2 kids and say she just chose to close that door. I know that she has been very harsh about her mother’s involvement in Exodus – but does that mean that she was never gay, just bisexual? And even Meredith Baxter, who just came out – said she was sexually attracted to men, she just happen to fall for a woman and then another woman – so is there a new grouping where it’s no longer a “lesbian” couple, but a “les/bi” couple. And well lets not even mention reality TV – where it seems girls just have sex with each other now for fun. OK, I guess what I am saying is it is very confusing – but it seems so hard to get the facts when it seems that most of what is being promoted these days is “sexual fluidity” – so it’s hard to even take even take what people say at face value. I know that there are many on this board that say I was born gay, I have always known it – and I respect your stories. Unfortunately – who am I to deny the same respect to the stories of those who say – I became attracted to the same sex later in life, or I was attracted to the same sex and now I am attracted to and in love with someone of the opposite sex?
I have to say at this moment – I thought by researching and hearing the stories of others it would help me get more clarity, but it really made me more confused
Nikki, you are so, so, so off base on so many things.
People who are gay are born gay. Some few, like myself are born bisexual. None of us change. Period. Anne Heche is, as she says herself, attracted to both genders, as am I. I am in a monogomous relationship, till death due us part, and yes, it is a legal marriage, to my husband. If he preceeds me in deathk, in time, I may love again, and yes, it may be a woman.
If that happens, I will not be “Coming out straight”. I will be as bi (and attracted to men) as I ever was. Just like Ms. Heche. Just like Meredith Baxter, etc (it can be HARD in what was in the past an even more anti gay society than now to admit to same sex desires…so a lot of older people only come out late in their lives, and say it was something long repressed)
No one, and I mean NO ONE ever changed their orientation. Cannot be done, no real study backs it up, and every respectable medical organization in the nation will tell you that. It is a road to heartache and disappointment. Some CLAIM they are “cured” (how insulting…it implies I am sick) but in EVERY case I ahve ever experienced, and I know a few of these sad souls, and have helped clean up the emotional damage, it was a desperate front, and they were still exactly who God had made them to be in the first place.
Lifestyle? That IS insulting. Living in Beverly Hills, driving a Bentley, and vacationing in Aegean is a lifestyle. Living in a trailer in Alabama with your baby momma (sometimes) and running a meth lab and driving a copu of the “general Lee” is a lifestyle.
Being gay, or bi, or straight for that matter, is being WHO YOU ARE. It cannot be changed, not like moving to another place, getting better clothes/manners/education and leaving the General Lee on blocks. The term insults us on many levels…and it is a slap to the face that says “you are not even real, and you do not know yourself as well as I know you”.
What could be more insulting than that?
Really, What?
Now, finally, there IS NO DISCUSSION AMONG DECENT, GOOD PEOPLE ABOUT THIS ISSUE.
IT IS SETTLED.
THE CONSERVATIVES WERE WRONG, AND IF YOU TAKE THEIR SIDE, OR PRETEND THAT THERE IS STILL A “DISCUSSION” YOU WILL BE CLASSED WITH THE KKK, NAZI’S AND THAT SORT.
You don’t like this fact?
Not my problem. but if you want to be a moral and decent person, it is NOT possible to take the “exodus” conservative position and be seen as a good person, a good parent, or anyting less than, yes, a bigot.
Welcome to the 21st century.
Nikki, imagine that you were taught from an early age that being a heterosexual is sinful, that you are evil and that if you act on your natural feelings you will be doomed to an eternity of suffering in both this and the next world. Now imagine growing up with that on your shoulders every day from the time you were a child. Turning 18 doesn’t make those feelings of worthlessness and self hate dissappear. You carry those feelings through the rest of your life–and often, even after years of therapy and accomplishments those feelings never really go away. They crop up whenever you’re not feeling your best. Many gay people think the reason for this unhappiness is that they are gay when in reality it’s that they’ve been made to feel worthless, sick and evil from the time they were children.
How can you really say you have a great relationship with your relative and friend when you believe homosexuality is a sin? I have a lot of relatives who believe that and while they may think we have a great relationship, in reality, I don’t like being around them all that much. It’s hard to be friendly with people who are judging you–even if thy don’t know they are.
The problem with Exodus is not just “how they handle it” it’s that they are branding people’s natural sexual orientation as sinful and lying to people that they can change it. Or, that these people should be celibate–not experience the full joy of human relations. They prey on the weaknesses of thes people still damaged by the pain of growing up gay in an intolerant society.
As for the girl in your church. I can understand the feelings of the mother but hopefully she’ll come to accept her daughter. As for your other concerns–first, that she came out doesn’t mean she’s having sex. Unfortunately, especially in religious communities there are few or no social outlets for gay teens. We mostly don’t date, or at least not people we’re actually attracted to. We don’t get to dance with our same-sex partners we don’t get to hang out at our parent’s house or at the mall with our same-sex girlfriend or boyfriend. I wasn’t having sex when my parents found out I was gay. I confessed having homosexual feelings to the bishop at our church and he informed my parents (apparently there’s no confidentiality in that church when it came to that). I understand the parent being confused and freaking out but you also have to realize what that child is going through–and that girl has far fewer options than the mother so for me I’m more concerned about her.
The problem with the term “gay lifestyle” is that it implies that we don’t have a life or that we all participate in the same “lifestyle”. I’m not sure what you mean when you say it seems hard to figure out what LGBT is these days. Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual are all sexual orientations. The people who are LGBT are as different from each other as heterosexuals are. You never hear anyone say “heterosexual lifestyle”. That would be ridiculous. When anti-gay Christians use the term “gay lifestyle” they are implying an unhealthy drug using, alchoholic, sexually irresponsible lifestyle and saying that every GLBT person lives that way. Guess what–some do, but then so do some heterosexuals.
Ann Heche is bisexual and also has serious mental problems–unsurprising considering she was raised by an abusive closeted father and an abusive insane religiously fundamental mother. In reality, as far as Heche and Baxter go I assume they are bisexual–seeing as how I don’t know either of them personally I can’t judge beyone that. And in reality it’s not my–or your place to decide how to label them. I know many men and women who lived most of their lives as heterosexual and then in their later years became primarily homosexual–I suppose it can happen the other way too, sexuality isn’t hard and fast in every single person. I personally have never been sexually attracted to women even though most of most close friends are heterosexual females. The thing about bisexuals is that when they’re with a person of the same sex everyone assumes they are gay when they’re with a person of the opposite sex everyone assumes they’re straight–but in reality they’re still bisexual.
I’m confused as to what exactly you’re trying to find out with your reasearch. If you were looking to confirm your previously held beliefs it’s probably good that you’re confused now. I will tell you that these ex-gay programs don’t work. There are some people who probably fell somewhere in the middle of the sexual continuum who were able to lead a mostly heterosexual life–but there are far more who don’t. Growing up, when I did become sexually active, the men that I met were for the most part married men who did not identify as gay. They had sex regularly with men and then went back to the church as the good upstanding heterosexual husband and father they appeared to the rest of the world. Most of them were also incredibly unhappy–many of them killed themselves especially after being arrested or found out. But, if you asked them, they would still claim to be heterosexual–that’s another reason I don’t trust Exodus’ claims of success. Leaving that small community and going to a place where I could be open and honest about who I am was the best thing that could have happened. Too bad I had to leave most of my family behind to do it. But now I have my own family of choice including my partner of 13 years.
As for your wanting to “talk” to me–do you really? I’m fine with that but if you’re trying to church me or trying to make me think that these groups are okay if they stick to working with adults then you’re fighting a losing battle.
Nikki– thank you for your gracious repsonse.
But you still haven’t answered my questions.
Gene said: “Nikki, you are so, so, so off base on so many things”
Gene, I am not sure if you were talking about the post of mine that preceded yours, but if you look at the punctuation on the posts you will see that most of what I said ended in question marks because as I admitted – they were not conclusions.
Gene said: “People who are gay are born gay. Some few, like myself are born bisexual. None of us change. Period”
I am not sure what the statistics are, but Gene – even you must admit that if you are not in the gay community and you look at mainstream media – you see more bisexuals than gays or lesbians. That is why i asked the questions. As I pointed out to Becky – when she said she did not know one person who believed homosexuality was a sin that did not believe in stripping them of their civil rights – that she may want to expand her circle. I feel the same way – I cited examples of people I know. But I know that they are not the only stories out there – so I attempt to expand my circle of knowledge by hearing other stories.
Gene said:
Not my problem. but if you want to be a moral and decent person, it is NOT possible to take the “exodus” conservative position and be seen as a good person, a good parent, or anything less than, yes, a bigot.
I am not sure what you mean by “exodus” conservative position – especially since i have clearly stated i am not affiliated with Exodus. First of all I have already said I am Black, and how many of us do you see at Exodus? Second I have already clearly stated that the church I attend is not an Exodus affiliate.
Gene said:
Now, finally, there IS NO DISCUSSION AMONG DECENT, GOOD PEOPLE ABOUT THIS ISSUE.
I am not sure what issue you are talking about. But I am confused about if you are saying that people who discuss the issue are not decent or good. If you were just talking about the use of the term “gay lifestyle” – but that’s not a conservative issue. Lisa Ling has clearly said she is not a Christian and fully supports gay rights and she used it. And I know you want to blame the “Conservatives” for this but a gay friend sent me this link”
http://www.metroweekly.com/news/last_word/2010/06/devin-glenn-ad-takes-terribly.html
a couple months ago for a good laugh. I believe that this magazine is a huge gay magazine in DC and they used the term.
I guess what I am trying to say Gene is don’t assume that every person who uses the term is anti-gay or conservative, but most of all doing it out of disrespect. I promise you that I did not know before I read Wayne’s articles that the term was offensive.
Nikki, what mainstream media are you looking at that you’re seeing more bisexuals than gays and lesbians?
Also, a church doesn’t have to be an official “affiliate” of Exodus to do the same damage. There is a lot of misunderstanding in black churches about what it is to be GLBT and I’ve heard many people argue against gay rights because for some odd reasons they think it will mean fewer black men to marry the black heterosexual women. You should consider the fact that gay (or bisexual) men who are not honest about their sexuality has something to do with the rise of AIDS among black women.
Daniel -
I was about to list all of the openly bisexual characters on TV as well as those in reality television vs. the amount of openly gay/lesbian characters or participants in reality television – but it would take too much time. You said only a few people were born bisexual compared to the amount that were born gay/lesbian. I did not disagree with you, i just said that mainstream media – and i even noted that especially in its portrayal of the “MTV Generation”. Once again, I will give you another link to another article on AfterEllen – a popular lesbian website
http://www.afterellen.com/people/2010/08/going-with-the-flow
I believe you will find examples of what I am talking about in the article. I am not saying the mainstream media is right in its portrayal – i am just saying it adds to the confusion.
Gene said:
There is a lot of misunderstanding in black churches about what it is to be GLBT and I’ve heard many people argue against gay rights because for some odd reasons they think it will mean fewer black men to marry the black heterosexual women. You should consider the fact that gay (or bisexual) men who are not honest about their sexuality has something to do with the rise of AIDS among black women.
I completely agree! I don’t need to consider it, i agree with you completely. But it is hard to bring knowledge about this to our churches. I really can’t tell you how to break down these walls. I can only tell you that the gay relative I mentioned participated in a open forum with me on the church and homosexuality at my church. I know that is rare, but it happened – and it was a great experience for everyone. It helped the people at my church be able to ask questions and for her she was able to speak her truth without persecution. She and her partnered have visited a few times – they even rung in the new year with us. So I believe it is possible, but it does take the right people from both sides.
Nikki, I don’t think I said only a few people are born bisexual as opposed to gay and lesbian. If I did I mispoke. I suspect there are far more bisexuals than people who are strictly gay and lesbian.
Daniel, you wrote
“When anti-gay Christians use the term “gay lifestyle” they are implying an unhealthy drug using, alchoholic, sexually irresponsible lifestyle and saying that every GLBT person lives that way. Guess what–some do, but then so do some heterosexuals.”
No, what they are implying is that it is not a life, it is like dressing up as Capt. Nemo and pretending you’re a pirate. Having a lifestyle makes it a trivial, superficial, unreal sort of a thing. to admit that our lives ARE lives, that we have love, romance, want family, like children, may be religious, is to put us on a par with them when clearly, according to their beliefs, we cannot be. Robert George has waasted 40 pages of the Harvard Law review touting just that.
Not all bigotry is hatred, fear, ignornance, unconsciousness, religious belief, a get-rich-quick scheme, or more-than-a-suspicion about one’s own proclivities.
A good deal of it is a fervent belief in your self-defined but otherwise wholly imaginary superioirty.
Ben, I believe I made that point earlier in my post. But, I believe when anti-gay Christians use the term “gay lifestyle” they are implying in a dog whistle form that that is the way all gay people live.
Daniel & Ben, I think you’re both right about lifestyle. I also think the Christian fanatics may be doing some projecting, depending on the full definition of lifestyle. Earlier today, this was part of a comment I wrote on another post:
“As is so typical of religious fanatics, their authentic natures and feelings are wrung out of them, and all that remains are empty shells whose lives become a series of performances that reward them with standing ovations from their fellow fanatics and their god.”
I think they have lifestyles as opposed to authentic lives. That’s part of why they find it such an alien concept that being gay is “who we are,” for example. In their world, a person’s authentic nature is almost always something to be suppressed in favor of living a scripted performance – or a lifestyle.
Daniel, Ben, Gene, and Richard -
I just stopped by really quick to tell you all that i actually posted a link on my Facebook to Wayne’s piece on the use of the term “gay lifestyle”, because the conversation has been really enlightening to me. I could tell by all of your conviction that it seemed like it was the equivalent of the use of the “N word”. You’ve heard me call myself Black, and I don’t have a problem being called that. But to some, even that would be offensive because they insist on being called “African American” and then we still have to contend with the widespread use and misuse of the word “n****r” among our youth.
“Gay lifestyle” is something I heard not really from the church as much as from the media and even friends who I know were gay. I actually called two of my gay friends today to ask them if I have ever offended them with the use of the term, and they both said no. However, I realized that it was probably because they know me and to them – like me not being bothered by being called Black – it was their personal feelings.
So I really wanted to apologize to you gentlemen for my use of the term. I can’t speak for anyone else – I can only speak for myself and tell you that I did not know it was an offensive term. The good news is now that I know am informed – i can educate someone else.
Nikki, I don’t think anyone considers “gay lifestyle” an equivalent of the n word. It’s just an insulting, ignorant phrase. I would say it’s more along the lines of “you people”.
Who gives a sh*t. It’s just a show. I watched it and forgot about what Exodus was soon after and I probably wasn’t the only one. I’m pretty sure no one was like “gee, those Exodus folk are some great people” after the show and then proceeded to order their t-shirts.
So, in other words, I wouldn’t lose any sweat over the show no matter what “group” you represent.
Because, Ryan, Exodus is one of the major purveyors of deliberate harm inflicted on LGBTQ. When your entire social network, including your immediate and extended family, abandons you because they buy the BS Exodus is selling, you don’t forget the b******s in a hurry.
Nikki– you still haven’t answered my questions, though you have found time to answer others.
I’m still waiting for an answer from you. If you don’t, i will.
Nikki (assuming you’re still checking in), seeing as how you didn’t respond to my response to you I’m beginning to think that I was right–that you weren’t really interested in “talking” and you wanted to church me. I’m not surprised as that’s usually the case when fundamentalist Christians contact me and say they want to “talk” or “have a discussion”. I always say–”that’s fine, but just to let you know, I’m not not interested in being preached to and I’m pretty resolved in my feelings about anti-gay religions.” I’ve never had anyone respond after that because what they really wanted was to try to convert me. I guess they think that since I was religious once I’m a prospect and they’re dissappointed to find out I’m not.
If all you got out of this discussion is that “gay lifestyle” is insulting–I guess that’s something, but not really that much.
Ryan, you have to realize that you’re not the only person in the world and just because you had that reaction doesn’t mean everyone else did. If you really don’t care about this why don’t you just go read something else? Judging by the response here there are plenty of people who do care.
daniel– she hasn’t answered me, either. She may be just busy. Or she may be avoiding the discussion. We’ll find out.
Daniel and Ben – One of my closest friends lost her brother last night to a senseless murder – so I was traveling to be with her and the family. So I am on my cell phone instead of a PC and typing is a bit laborious – therefore Daniel – I have every intention of responding – but don’t feel I could respond to your posts in the manner it deserves while typing on a telephone. Should be able to respond late tonight or in the morning.
@Nikki:
I haven’t been too much of a part of the discussion with you, but condolences and hugs to you and yours. That’s awful to hear.
Thank you for letting us know. I’m sorry to hear of your loss.
Nikki, my deepest sympathy. It’s not really that important to post in the light of this.
I was also extremely disappointed in Ling’s show. She seemed to be so impressed that Chambers appeared to say (but he didn’t) that you could be gay and Christian. This is another error that could easily have been spotted if Ling had looked at Chambers’ books or listened to a variety of speakers at Exodus.
I’ve noticed a subtle way that Exodus is trying to appear as if they don’t believe that being gay and Christian is incompatible. They will say these days something like (and Chambers said something like this in Ling’s show) “God wants your heart first, not your homosexuality.” They want to try to sell people on [their version of] Christianity first, and down-play the anti-gay message until they’ve got people accepting [their version of] Christianity.
I don’t believe for a second that Chambers thinks there is such a thing as gay Christian. He believes true Christianity renounces homosexuality as sinful.
I agree that Ling was snookered, I’m sad to say. I hope she will dig deeper and that OWN will find a way to repair this if they decide to re-air.
By the way, I’m not sure if anyone mentioned this (there were a lot of posts and I confess to not having read them all carefully), but Janet Boynes is a regular speaker at Exodus events. To suggest Chambers and Boynes are radically different messages is ludicrous. Chambers is more savvy these days, for sure.
I so wish they would not bear false witness against me, my family, and my community.
“Homosexuality will disappoint you” is not just a statement from his own personal experience. He is generalizing, and this is false witness against me and any other gay, lesbian, or bisexual person for whom this has not been true.
One final point. Some people in these blogs that are critical of ex-gay groups have made a big deal out of Exodus appearing to back away from politics, but I think if you take a closer look, particularly at some of the activities of the smaller ministries, particularly the one out of South Carolonia led by McCrae Game (I may have spelled his first name wrong), you will see quite a lot of involvement of ex-gay groups and leaders opposing marriage equality and anything progressive for LGBT people in the political sphere.
I think it’s so funny that so many people on here attempt to quote the Bible- out of context- as a weapon against those who believe in it. You claim that “Christians,” which is far too broad a term, just hate gays and want to see them suffer. First of all, anyone can call themself a Christian, but unless you are truly living your life according to the Bible, and accepting ALL of the Bible as truth, then you are misleading both yourself and others. Secondly, people who truly know and study the Bible and apply it to their lives know that Christians are called to love the sinner, but hate the sin. And yes, the Bible clearly defines homosexuality as a sin. If you’re going to believe parts of the bible, then you have to believe all of it. Or vice versa. You cannot pick and choose. It doesn’t work that way. The thing is, Jesus also clearly says that anyone not for Him is against Him. You cannot claim to love Jesus and carry on in a homosexual lifestyle. It’s contradictory. Look it up for yourselves. And as far as the “hate” thing goes, what do so many of you think you’re doing when you put down Christianity? How can you be so hypocritical? You try and try to push your beliefs on everyone else, and at the same time, you condemn those who do the same thing because their beliefs differ from yours!
I can’t believe people (“gay community” for lack of better term) who claim to be so accepting, loving, and forward thinking, have taken aim at other’s beliefs so vehemently and irrationally (some of the reviews being left on Apple are hideously exaggerated and are in completely poor taste). Now, I may not agree with everything Exodus teaches, but the Exodus International App for the iPhone is only found, downloaded, and read through if you are searching for it. On the other hand Exodus does not protest “pro-gay” Apps on Apple, of which there are several that are meant just for guys to find a hook up, there is even an App called “gay sex.” So, let’s get real, activists. If you want to be treated fairly and find equality in this nation then you must be willing to share that privilege with others. However, you also have to realize that Apple is a corporation. It is not governed by laws such as “free speech.” Apple can choose to pull an App if they deem it offensive, but they didn’t, and now other people who are angry, misguided, and downright belligerent are going to force them to do it.
SW….would you support an app for teen suicide that was only be “found, downloaded, and read through if you are searching for it”?
SAME DAMN THING.
DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT compare us to the monsters who destroy lives and good mental health at Exodus.
Some ideas (anti semitism, racism, that men can beat women, that it is acceptable to tell ANY gay person they need to be “cured” or “repaired”) are NOT acceptable any more.
b***h.
Tiffany said “Secondly, people who truly know and study the Bible and apply it to their lives know that Christians are called to love the sinner, but hate the sin.”.
LOL! Tiffany, you just proved that you don’t know or study the bible. It doesn’t say “love the sinner, hate the sin” anywhere in the bible, that’s just a dishonest platitude christians use to make themselves feel better about their bigotry. The essence of morality is “Do whatever you want but harm no one.”. Who we are attracted to is a core feature of who we are. If you hate the gayness you hate a major part of who the gay person is. Our actions aren’t divorced from who we are as people, if you hate the gayness you hate the gay.
Tifffany said “And yes, the Bible clearly defines homosexuality as a sin. If you’re going to believe parts of the bible, then you have to believe all of it.”.
Oh, like the parts where it says gays must be stoned to death, bats are birds, some birds have four legs, pi=3, rain is caused by god opening a window in the “firmament” and letting water fall down, stars can fall to earth and be held in your hand, unicorns exist, the “firmament”, an invisible dome in the sky, holds up the stars, sun and moon, and on and on and on. Nice to hear you believe in all that idiocy Tiffany, that really helps your credibility.
SW said “I can’t believe people (”gay community” for lack of better term) who claim to be so accepting, loving, and forward thinking, have taken aim at other’s beliefs so vehemently and irrationally”.
It is perfectly rational to oppose the belief that harmless people should be oppressed and one most definitely should oppose that belief vehemently – it would be deeply irrational to do otherwise. Anti-gay beliefs are destructive and must be stamped out if we are to have the best society possible.
Tiffany…you really are ignorant.
If you beieved in ALL the Bible you would;
1) belong to one of the fundamentalist churches…which have made Christianity look like trash
2) stone people to death
3) be unable to wear cloth made of mixed fibers
4) eat shrimp
5) be unable to let a woman speak in church
you pick and choose..and, appearantly attend an inferior congregation or denomination that also decides to embarce prejudice against gay people. I suggest you find a higer quality church…and learn to face the fact that you are a prejudiced persons, who it seems has learned a distorted faith taht we will RIGHTFULLY call out on it when it works against the rights, dignity and happiness of our families. Thats is not Christophobic…thats calling the church out when its wrong, just like people like me did when it to often supported racism, and the second class status of women.
It will continue. Know that. And think of how you would feel if the Bible was quoted by mere fundamentalists (not the great Biblical scholars who have shown whole denominations like the Presbyterians and Lutherans that homophobia is NOT the message of the Gospel, but mere fundys) to hurt you…before you do the same to others
Good luck in becoming an educated and kind person. I know you can do it. And I hope you do.
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Tiffany, honey– you good Christians used to burn witches with the very same absolute mioral certainty ythat you are oding and expressing god’s will with which you now pursue gay people as your standing-agaionst-god’s word victim of the day.
It is not about hating Christians or Christianity. I couldn’t care less about it.
What i care aobut is your insistence that because you believe you undersatnd something in a book written 2000-3000 years ago that might possibly, in a vague, genral sort of a way, be aobut homosexuality, at least as it may have been understood by people thousands of years and miles away from us…
that you have the right to make my life as difficult and unpleasant as possible.
Maybve you should understand this:
JUDGE NOT LEST YE BE JUDGED.
Love the sinner and hate the sin is a non0-biblical way to get aorund what is clearly in the bible.
@Ben, In defense of Nikki.
http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20110110/sask-court-of-appeal-same-sex-marriage-ruling-110110/
Follow the link, and you will see that the issue of whether or not a minister of a church could go to jail is real.