Photo by Kent Harville
Coalition members at the table include, left to right: Anthony Spearman; Brent Childers, executive director of Faith in America; Wayne Besen, Truth Wins Out’s Executive Director; Mitchell Gold, founder of Faith in America; and Jack McKinney, a former pastor and counselor. The meeting took place June 15 at the Phoenix Convention Center between sessions of the Southern Baptist Convention Annual Meeting.
According to the Baptist Press:
A coalition of homosexual leaders and their allies met for more than 30 minutes Tuesday with Southern Baptist Convention President Bryant Wright, with the leaders demanding an apology from the SBC and Wright refusing to budge, saying that Scripture is clear on the issue.
The remarkable meeting — cordial the entire time — took place between the morning and afternoon sessions of the SBC in Wright’s annual meeting office at the Phoenix Convention Center.
The nine-person coalition included representatives of the Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists, Faith in America and Truth Wins Out. They protested outside the convention hall and requested to deliver petitions to Wright, who decided to turn the event into a dialogue. Several members of the media also attended.
“I was proud to be a part of this historic meeting,” said Truth Wins Out’s Executive Director Wayne Besen. “This was a rare opportunity to give a first-hand account of the harm the Southern Baptist Convention’s teachings have caused LGBT people, particularity youth. I was also able to look Bryant Wright directly in the eyes and tell him that his ‘ex-gay’ ministries don’t work and are shattering lives.”
What disturbs me the most concerning Wrights assertion that “Scripture is clear on the issue” is that he and most “bible christians” can quote the thing from cover to cover, but have absolutely no clue as to the origins/context of the books of the Bible. NONE. They were taught somewhere in time that this collection of books is “THE WORD OF GOD”, but never questioned the origin of this phrase, neither have they studied the Bible’s history, nor its accuracy/authenticity in its entirety. It is said that history is written by the victors; this is true in large part to some of the history and moral teaching that is included in these writings. Not only that, but they choose which scriptures are relevant to them, and those that are not; all the while, insisting on the relevance of the ENTIRE Bible, today. I don’t doubt their intentions, for the most part, I doubt their misguided judgement and subjective interpretation.
“Wright refusing to budge, saying that Scripture is clear on the issue”. No surprise here. They’re absolutist interpretation of the Bible trumps ALL human decency and compassion–even saving the lives of children. I still think it’s just a b******t excuse to hate people they don’t like. ” ‘Scripture is clear’ about lots of nasty, hateful, murderous nonsense, but I don’t see them stoning prostitutes or adulteresses to death nor sacrificing animals at the temple/church.
I DO doubt their intentions, stephen.
More and more, I believe the more virulent thre homophobia, the more likey they are either earning a very good living at it, fighting their own demons, or in the case of AC, both.
@Stephen — you’re right. They suffer from severe biblioidolatry.
This is indeed *his*toric. As an urban Appalachian, I know the power and sway of the Southern Baptist Convention all too well. I am disturbed that this important meeting included no womyn. My Dianic voice will not be stifled, but the voices of Christian lesbians deserve to be heard if change and communication are going to occur.
Beth Maples-Bays, your point is well made about the Baptists and their patriarchy. But, while you are urban/city appalachian, I grew up rural Appalachian, where the SBC held little sway. Pentacostals dominated, and they have ordained women (and are often lead by women) since they were founded just after 1900. Sadly, some of these women are EVERY BIT as conservative and homophobic as the men of the SBC. Not all the enemies of Christian lesbians (and gay male Christians) are conservative men, sad to say.
I was at this event yesterday here in Phoenix. I was there for the “Teach In” I can say that over the years I have been to protests and other activities such as this. I can say in the past at things like this I have been heckled , called every name in the book, had things throw, been spit at, etc… That did not happen yesterday. Anyone who walked by and read my sign that said “Born This Way” and made eye contact with me. I wished them a good afternoon and told them to enjoy Phoenix. I liked this type of approach because it was confrontational without devolving into nothing but people screaming and yelling at each other. In the South if someone says hello or nice day it is almost a sin not to talk back and I knew this from being raised in Tennessee. What better way to start a conversation than with a Hey How Is It Going? or something along that line. People did not fear walking by us as I have seen from this group in the past. It allowed them to see us as people just like they were.
I know it did this because after the few people who had speeches had spoke outside after he Teach In. I got to have a very enlighten conversation with a young man about 19-23 named Angelo he is a member of the SBC and as he spoke with me he repeatedly shook by hand and asked my name. He allowed me to express my views and I allowed him time to express his. What we both found out is that we had a lot of common ground on how we see the World and our place in it.
It allowed us the time to hear each other and exchange ideas that might not of happened with a more in your face approach of screaming and chanting. I do believe there is a time and place for that type of protest and while those types may get media coverage. In the long run some of the time nothing gets accomplished and in some cases it can end up causing harm to the cause you are championing.
We both mentioned that we liked the stage that had been set by our group to allow people to talk if the wanted to. He said to me it was nice to see us not just yelling at them and that if we had of taken that approach he would not be standing where he was at talking to me. Just leaving that door open and hoping a few might step through it worked. Amazingly enough a few people did step through it yesterday. I got to express my belief that while I have no issue what people want to believe as far as religion goes as long as that they do not go out of their way to cause harm to others because of those beliefs. I was also allowed to express the complete thought that in a lot of cases it seemed that the Church goes out of its way to presecute gays these days. That the way I was brought up I was taught to love everyone and that the God I was being taught about growing up makes no mistakes. He agreed with me that in his mind that was how he saw God too.
I feel that yesterday was one of the smaller protests I had been to. But on the other hand it was one of the most productive protests I have ever been to because I know I at least got through to one person a little bit. I know he will not run out and give up everything he believes in because of our conversation. But down the road the youth will be the leaders of the SBC and that is when real change will take place.
Until then we can only hope that some of what we do sinks in with some of the people. I know in my heart there will always be people who do not see it like I do. But even if we can all just start changing minds just one at a time. We will be well on our way to the equality and freedom from persecution by the Church and Far Right that we are looking for.
Baby steps get you places just as well as jumps and leaps. It may take a little longer but you will be older and wiser when you arrive and you will appreciate the journey even more when you get there.
Bil Wood
Phoenix , Az.
@Ben in Oakland I understand what you’re saying, and I agree with you 100% concerning those hateful “christians” whose whole gospel message is to spread as much vitriol as they can to communicate their own version of Jesus and the church. When I speak of “not doubting their intentions”, I’m referring to the ignorant masses in the pew who are willing to be spoon-fed what to believe and how to interpret the Bible without asking “why?”, all for the sake of loving God, for fear of damnation to question otherwise from their self-serving pastors. I believe whatever THEY spout is just a perfect copy of their limited understanding of what is being taught from the pulpit. In essence, “they know not what they do”. As I’ve said before, their ignorance will ultimately be their undoing. @Beth Totally agree with you, Beth. @Bill Wood Great post!!
The Southern Baptist Convention isn’t paying this nutcase, Wayne Besen, any attention, as they know that homosexuality is a perversion and unnatural lifestyle! God has spoken very clearly about homosexuality and homosexuals. The SBC will NEVER elect a known gay person to leadership! That simply will not happen!
Jared knows that “god spoke clearly” because Jared has very special big ears that can hear invisible things!
Substitute any other word for “god,” and you’d be called schizophrenic.
A Dr. Micah Carter tweeted he’d ‘just had a very uncomfortable convo with a lesbian feminist” and thanked Ed Stetzer.
http://twitter.com/#!/micah_carter
Is this his SBC convention humour, or is he freaked out? Is this posturing for delegates reading the SBC2011 feed?
He sees to be the top pr guy at Lifeway. (Director of Communications)
I can’t ask him myself because I don’t tweet or FB.
If the Bible speaks clearly, then Jared isn’t listening — or he suffers from hearing loss. He hears only the parts that he wants to hear.
I don’t know how many fundie homohaters know that the Bible they damn near idolise was commissioned by King James who was bisexual or even possibly gay–his greatest love. Given how much the homohaters hate us, they should be all upset over a bisexual or gay man commissioning something such as the King James Bible.
I don’t know how many fundie homohaters know that the Bible they damn near idolise was commissioned by King James who was bisexual or even possibly gay–according to sohis greatest love was the the
g. Given how much the homohaters hate us, they should be all upset over a bisexual or gay man commissioning something such as the King James Bible.
I agree with Wright -”scripture is clear on the issue”. If these meetings with the SBC are going to continue then WE HAVE TO ADDRESS THE SO CALLED ANTIGAY PASSAGES DIRECTLY!!! The SBC has the luxury of knowing that it can rely on biased TRANSLATIONS, and passages that have been stripped from their historical context to base their homophobia. As a Christian my
self I can assure u that u would NOT CHANGE MY ANTI-GAY views unless u could show me from scripture what the GREEK/ HEBREW actually say and mean. The SBC is aware of the scriptural arguments and historical facts that handily confront and expose their anti-gay positions as the man-made lies they are. This is what these meetings should accomplish – bringing those lies to the surface for the general public to see. So the next time one of these SBC leaders throw out the “scripture is clear” move to support their lies, we should be thankful that THEY opened the door to their own demise and start dismantling their entire empire of homophobic culture with nothing more than the facts of scripture, and the biblical and secular history that support those facts. Then and only then when u expose the unimaginable pain and hurt their organization is guilty of will the shame of their conduct peak.
Beth:
Robin Lunn of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists was in the meeting. Just not in the picture. She spoke at the meeting.
Wayne
I disagree with the idea that we should attempt to convince conservative evangelicals that they are wrong about what the Bible says. It is virtually certain they will never change.
Where we can make progress, however, is in convincing them that their actions in response to their beliefs, and not the actual beliefs themselves, should be up for discussion, i.e., We should work to help them change the way they respond to those with whom they disagree.
Take the issue of divorce, for example. Years ago, many divorced persons were not even allowed to join certain churches. Today, many of those churches embrace their divorced members, even though their underlying theological position on the issue has not changed.
Jared…thats what people said a generation ago about the Presbyterians….
…..and Episcopalians….
…..and United Church of Christ
…..and the Lutherans….
Give it time. ….’and the baptists’ will be added to the list.
As per the “scripture being clear”, if it was, no one would be on the list, would they Jared??
Chris L. said,
“Where we can make progress, however, is in convincing them that their actions in response to their beliefs, and not the actual beliefs themselves, should be up for discussion . . .”
I think the “actual beliefs themselves” should absolutely be up for discussion – lots of discussion. Those foundational beliefs underpin all their campaigns against human progress, not only against gay people, but in other areas, including science, reproductive rights, and church/state separation. Few people would be attacking religious beliefs if they were not being used to motivate and/or justify their nefarious theocratic impulses.
Chris I see ur point buddy. I just think that we owe it to TRUTH to set the matter straight as far as scripture is concerned regarding homosexuality. For over a century the SBC used scripture to morally condone slavery. But that’s not the worse part. The worse part is that the KNEW that they were taking scripture out of context to suit their own desires and saw to it that slaves remained illiterate so as not to be able to investigate the scriptures for themselves. Eventually social justice advanced on the political front to the point where the SBC was forced to confront and compare their own moral belief system with the affects of social progress. It was the establishment of human equality that forced the SBC into a corner and to relinquish it’s Pharasiac stance regarding the TRUTH of scripture and slavery. Only then did the SBC become powerless in holding a veil between their prejudice and scripture. So Chris I do see ur point with regards to reporting the casualities that have been victimized by the SBC’s methods in dealing with homosexuality and the injustice of certain individuals.
But Chris we are leaving a significant matter unaddressed if we stop there. There is an even bigger issue at stake regarding the morality of homosexuality. The SBC has flat out LIED IN THE NAME OF GOD on this matter. And they have a plethora of concordances and resources that store those lies as references. They have sent individuals TO THEIR GRAVE under false retribution. Others they have repulsed even the notion of a loving God to such extremes that the idea of conforming to any type of moral code escapes them. These ones have been stumbled and hurt so badly that their families, their congregations, society’s disgusted view of them and now God has witheld all understanding and empathy regarding their existence.
The SBC needs to have it’s nose rubbed in it’s own waste. The very foundation of that organization is built on the idea of Christianity which itself is based on God’s Word. And because of their own prejudice even their cornerstone was based on the LIE that slavery/ black prejudice were scripturally condoned. And for nearly 150 years the SBC empire manufactured and produced this lie sermon after sermon until a social wrench was thrown from outside forcing their religious blueprints to go public and to face detailed scrutiny. The TRUTH of scripture caught them red-handed. It was also the TRUTH of scripture that dismantled the SBC’s stance because it was the TRUTH of scripture they claimed to represent. Fire was fought with fire and their “biblical” lies were exposed. The SBC would have cut off it’s own oxygen supply if it didn’t acknowledge its own wrongdoing. So in 1995 came their long awaited overdue apology. And it was the TRUTH of scripture that did this. Social justice was merely the preemptive strike.
Wayne Besen, a leading homosexual activist and a former Human Rights Campaign spokesperson, interjected, “You’re asking for people to surrender their humanity.”
Wayne I read the article in the Baptist Press and saw ur comment above. Wayne I do believe that such comments do not help advance a conversation with Christians of any denomination whose core belief is to give up ourselves ( our humanity as u say). That’s exactly what followers of Christ try to do. Mr. Wright was very clever when he said the following:
” The Bible condemns both homosexual sex and heterosexual sex that is outside the bonds of marriage.”
That was carefully chosen rhetoric used to escape the fact that bible translations for which they endorse condemn more than just “homosexual sex” as he puts it but rather “homosexuals” without a modifier “sex”. For example the NIV 1st edition at 1cor 6:9 condems “homosexuals”. Eliciting some to undergo reparative therapy to try to remove the desire. In the 2nd edition the word “practicing” was added so that it read “practicing homosexuals”. It was a measure of “cleanup” from what was already a stray from the Greek to begin with. Another point worth noting about his comment is the use of the term “homosexual” altogether. The bible does speak in generalities with application to both sexes even though it may only address one sex usually “men”. Some references against fornication and adultery are examples of this. However bestiality, for instance, is not one of those cases. The bible specifically prohibits both men and women from engaging in it. And in other instances scripture uses the term “anyone” to address anyone regardless of sex to refrain from it. But with the so called “homosexual” references the bible specifically addresses men. To condemn homosexuality just as religious leaders today try to not only can one sex not be omitted but one has to show the other sex whom the first sex can’t engage in. In other words you can’t take the Greek word “arsenokoitai” which the Latin Vulgate interprets as “liars with males” and suddenly get “men who lie with men” or by conjecture ” women who lie with women”. But what you can do is what Martin Luther did and the German Jerusalem bible did by interpreting it as “child abusers/ child molestors”- a postlude of the idea of pedastry – because in each instances the sex of the one doing the act is not concluded- which agrees with the construct of the original Greek. Nowhere from Genesis to Revelations are women ever mentioned with regard to same-sex behavior. Leviticus address the practices of the Canaanites and accurately only mentioned males as those were the participants within the Canaanite rituals the Israelites were been warned from imitating. And later in the book of Deuteronomy ( the book referred to by the Jews as the EXPLANATION OF THE LAW) when the Levitical laws that contain the death penalty repeat, both MALES and FEMALES are prohibited from cross-dressing and from temple prostitution elaborating on the sex rituals Leviticus had already mentioned. So when Wright tries to fly below the radar with the phrase “homosexual sex” to solicit his prejudice, he is untruthful on multiple levels. I think more effort should be placed on calling him out on that.
Whatever True Agape. Your kind of long winded. That’s why I was at the meeting and you weren’t.
Lol
Perhaps ur right. Thank u for all of ur efforts. Ur actions r greatly appreciated!!!!
Wayne,
Perhaps as a suggestion u may have responded with something to the fact that Mr. Wright is asking ones to give up their humanity by going beyond and perpendicular to scripture. Something along those lines; something that specifically brought their “scriptural” beliefs into the hotseat. Because their beliefs are where their problem lies. And they’re guarding them with purposefully naive rhetoric.
I’m only making a suggestion not trying to criticize or offend u in any way.