We called for an apology and…..
“We’ve (Southern Baptists) lied about the nature of homosexuality and have practiced what can only be described as homophobia. We’ve used the choice language when it is clear that sexual orientation is a deep inner struggle and not merely a matter of choice.” – President of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary Albert Mohler, speaking at this year’s SBC convention in Phoenix. Mohler also said: “Only the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ gives a homosexual person any hope of release from homosexuality.”
This is certainly a half a loaf (at best). The last part of his statement seems to contradict the first half. However, it is quite impressive that the SBC has admitted to lying — which undermines the “ex-gay” myth. Who would have thought that the SBC would renounce the canard that homosexuality is a choice? Did our call for an apology play into this? I really don’t know. But, I do know this is what progress looks like. Sometimes, you get sweeping change. Other times it occurs in baby-steps.
I agree, not quite half a loaf, but more than I expected from them.
Progress? Which is better than nothing.
Everything was good up until the mention of the “internal struggle” business.
He admitted that the Southern Baptists have lied – not only to themselves, but to scores of youth and adults who have been and are struggling coming to terms with their sexual identity. This is a good thing. Hopefully as time moves on, they will start helping those they’ve hurt.
Wayne, read the “AFA” site….the high priest of the dingbats (that would be crude if it was applied to almost anyone other than Fishcher, but he has earned the title) is LIVID over this! As are posters on other sites, and Christian Radio. It may seem like a half loaf/small thing, BUT, to the fundamentalist/evangelical mindset this admission, coming from the President of the flagship seminary of the Southern Baptist Convention no less, is rightly seen as the first real crack in the damn. Its a huge thing, and YES, it seems VERY likely that the call for an apology started the ball rolling in many peoples minds.
A LOT of conservatives are LIVID and sincerely shocked that the SBC leadership even agreed to MEET with you folk, and thet fact it was cordial (no fire and brimstone, no ‘your killing society’) seems to have…offended (how sad) a lot of conservatives.
The whole thing was a HUGE victory for us all, and TWO deserves a LOT (LOT!) of credit. KUDOS!
Maybe this means that fundamentalist ‘Christians’ will now have to confront their ‘deep inner struggle’ with bigotry, hatred, and willful ignorance—which IS a choice! And thanks Gene for clarifying the importance of this. When I first read the article, I thought, that’s nice, but big deal. I guess for the lemmings in the evangelical community, it really is shocking.
I see no reason for optimism yet, nor any reason to trust anything that comes out of their mouths, nor any reason to think that this statement is anything more than a fluke from one individual exhibiting just the teensiest bit of remorse.
When they spend as many years on their knees begging MY forgiveness as I’ve spent on mine praying to their imaginary sadist of a God to make me straight, when they offer to reimburse the thousands I spent in therapy to deal with the self-loathing they so perfectly and exquisitely engraved on my soul, when they stop insisting that our sacred lives, loves, and families are obscenties and abominations and therefore worthy to be punishable by law…
…maybe, MAYBE, just maybe I will be able to see them with anything less than the total contempt I have for their twisted theology and their eagerness to use it to deny my humanity.
Brian — you are missing the larger picture. The very fact that they are compelled to go this far underscores the pressure externally and internally to change — although in baby steps.
You don’t have to trust what they say — just trust in the fact that the LGBT movement is making enough progress and they are recognizing the old lies and distortions are not playing as well as they used to.
As the culture changes, so will they — despite their desperate claims to the contrary.
It will not happen overnight — but over a period of many years.
Brian, I understand your point of view, but, I really do think that most of us who are not intimately tied into this worldview and subset of society (and which are stunned they are not the only and dominant society) fully grasp the significance of this. Wayne is right here, and when I read that he has said this, I had the same feeling I got when Lawrence V. Texas was ruled on, or the Mass marriage ruling came down. That may seem over the top, but now, when we hear “being gay is a choice” or one of its 100 variations, we can come back with a “actually, no less than AL MOHLER admitted that it is not a choice”. That alone will be enough to shut up a lot of our opponants, and thats huge!
And Wayne is right.
And, the reason so many pips (people in the pews) are upset by this is that it IS indicative and symblolic of the fact that even the SOUTHERN BAPTISTS now see that they have to meet with us, speak to us like we are humans they disagree with, NOT a bunch of pervs who might grab and molest a couple boys on the way out of the building (to the women who read this, take some solace that they focus on us guys…we are a threat to their masculinity and status it seems) And the fact that they know that they cannot just rant about how we are a bunch of freak and abominations…hard to do that when so many people in the church have gay uncles, aunts, sons and daughters.
To most people, this was just a quote from a pastor who said the truth…they had lied about us.
To the evangelical right, the whole thing was seen as an acknowledgement by their own leaders that their side had already lost a huge amount of ground. And the admission, by one of the most prominant of their leaders, that they had lied about us, came as a punch in the gut.
This would not have happened without the work of Wayne and Evan (and yes, many other people, of course)
It is a great day!
There’s an icicle in hell. I am not going to celebrate until the whole damn thing has frozen over.
I suppose it would be easier for me to interpret this as some kind of hopeful sign if we didn’t keep losing ground state by state. I’m very nervous about what happens in New York.
And I am angry. More angry than than I can often contain in civil words. More angry than I can put into ANY words. Too angry (and not nearly smart enough) to be able to do what Evan or Wayne do.
And the reason I am angry is that I AM “intimately tied into this worldview.” Maybe more accurate to refer to those people as current practitioners of same (I understand your point, Gene, about how bad this looks to them)… yet whether or not I want to be, it has been so deeply ingrained into my consciousness that decades after deliberately abandoning it, it is STILL a part of my psyche. STILL the reason the damage runs deep, STILL the reason that a little half-assed retraction is not going to get a cheer from me.
Sigh.
Dammit all, I’d like to think I could take a cross-country trip without worrying whether I have rights during the entire journey. In my lifetime. Now.
Brian….maybe more than a lot of people here who grew up in other faiths, or with no faith, or in a liberal and progressive minded branch of the faith (I grew up in a conservative congregation of a progressive denomination, which was still better than growing up IN that whole world view….I just was touched by it, not immersed in it like you) I THINK (it is dangerous to say I KNOW) that I understand what you have experienced.
I need to step back and remember that. You are right, although it is far more than an icicle, I see your point.
I offer you this as comfort (I hope). I am 42. You mention decades of having freed yourself from this toxic worldview.
Wow.
I say that with SINCERE respect. Those who did not grow up with/in it just see the craziness…I know how hard it can be to leave it, and I an really impressed that you did so. I would compare it to someone leaving an abusive relationship/marriage. People always say afterwards “why didn’t you just leave that abuse?”…not knowing it is not as easy as it sounds.
And Brian, when you (with UTTER justification) dream of a time when your rights will be uniform and complete during a cross country trip, do what I do when I get angry about that; I think of the fact that in the year I was born,ONE state (1 !), Illinois, had overturned its sodomy laws. When I was in college, about 25 had. When I was in my early 30′s, ALL of these laws were overturned in 2003. Nowhere in America, are we criminals….it is easy to forget that, less than a decade ago, in 12 states, we were.
Just 20 years ago, no major church saw us as anything less than sinners…abominations no less. Now, most of Americas oldest and most historic denominations welcome us…even ordain us! I was hurt, and you were hurt far worse, I can see, by the church. But, imagine (And this will make sense to you I am guessing, hope I am right) how some gay boy or lesbian, sitting in a fundamentalist church will feel when they hear “The church down the street ordains gay people”? They will know that not everyone thinks the same way. They will know in a way we never did, that they are not alone, and just knowing that other people value them will be proof to them that they, as gay youth, HAVE value.
I am no polyanna. I am ANGRY AS HELL that we are so close in NY, but probably will not get marriage there this year. But, I look at the big picture, and remember “when I was born, a few months before Stonewall, we had almost nothing.” And that is true.
I am not trying to flatter the owners of this site, but they have made a difference. As has GLAAD, and PFLAG and the millions of poeple who just said “no, no boyfriend. I am a lesbian” at work, smiled, and went about her day.
My neighbors 17 year old came out to them last year.
They took him and his boyfriend to the movies last Friday Brian, and his boyfriends dad take them to Braves games. When we feel angry, we have to think of things like this. I am saying “I am happy with half a loaf”. I am saying “I have gotten the first half, and working for the rest of it…and I remember that I did not think I would get anything at all”
I hope this (way to long) post comes across as I meant it to. In any case, I respect how much, and why, it is still burnt into your psyche. I hope we see it ALL in our lifetimes to. But, we have already come a Long, long way!
Brian– don’t get mad, get even.
Live your life proudly, not in fear or shame. Be the change you would see in the world.
You’ll be much happier.
Brian,
You are right to be pessimistic. Here’s what Mohler said in 2007:
In 2007, Albert Mohler, Jr., who also serves on the Focus on the Family Board of Directors
“The scientific evidence is mounting that human sexual orientation may be fixed by genetic and biological factors. The discovery of a biological factor would not change the Bible’s moral verdict on homosexual behavior. Rather than excusing homosexual behavior, such a genetic discovery could lead to pre-natal ways to eliminate homosexual orientation and Christians should support such a development. If a biological basis is found, and if a prenatal test is then developed, and if a successful treatment to reverse the sexual orientation to heterosexual is ever developed, we would support its use as we should unapologetically support the use of any appropriate means to avoid sexual temptation and the inevitable effects of sin.”
Genocidal intentions, anyone?
Just to add one thing on “a successful treatment to reverse the sexual orientation to heterosexual is ever developed”….
The hunt for a strong genetic link has proved elusive but evidence for a strong biological influence is mounting (Savic fMRI data being particualrly relevant).
Having looked at embryonic and neurological development, and thought about this a lot, it is clear to me that etiology of homosexuality is as complex and nuanced as human sexuality generally.
There is no single gene, there is no single moment of the proto-homosexual brain taking a left turn in the womb, there is no single embryonic ‘road less travelled’ upon which a therapy could be executed. Messing with this is the Frankenstein option.
For example I do wonder about the risks in treating
Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia by hormone therapy during pregnancy which has been posited recently. I think this is messing with nature to an unaccpetable degree – the long term consequences are simply not known.
How the hell could one devise a therapy that potentially impacts on growth of the brain, the hypothalmus, the amygdala, the anterior commisure etc? We know so little relatively, about how we hang together as humans with extraordinary self-consciousness, capable of great creativity and intelligence and complex emotions.
This is so unlikely as to be something we can dismiss IMO.
@ Christine – sounds like genocide through eugenic means.
“The scientific evidence is mounting that human sexual orientation may be fixed by genetic and biological factors. The discovery of a biological factor…such a genetic discovery could lead to pre-natal ways to eliminate homosexual orientation”
Then Mohler – and the other fundies – MUST be asked: “who put the genetic and biological factors into place to make that person homosexual then?” Unless they claim that their Satan has the same powers of creation as their God, then the answer must be God. Ergo, God WANTED that person to homosexual! (Unless this also means that God is not omnipotent, that he doesn’t have the power to arrange genetic and biological factors, but this premise is even more frightening to the fundies than homosexuality is.)
And doesn’t their Bible say that we were all born sinners? Therefore, to be consistent (RIIIIGHT!) they must also support scientific research into the biological/genetic bases for the sins of adultery, lying, etc….but I don’t see that happening :-)
It sounds like Der Mohler is painting himself into a corner from which there is no escape.
Yahoo!
Would they also support pre-natal ways to eliminate people of color?