African violence against the LGBT community is partially the result of American anti-gay and “ex-gay” activists stirring the pot in countries such as Kenya, Rwanda and Uganda. We all know that Exodus International’s board member Don Schmierer was at a Spring 2009 conference in Kampala that helped lead to the notorious Anti-Homosexuality Bill.
However, Truth Wins Out’s research team revealed today that another American “ex-gay” organization, Homosexuals Anonymous, had a conference in Kenya in November 2009. It was led by Doug McIntyre, HA’s Director. According to the organization’s October 2009 newsletter:
On November 3, 2009 the Director of HAFS will begin a visit to the beautiful country of Kenya. We have been invited to begin a new work for the HA program and educate the members of a two thousand member church so that they can begin to reclaim the lost youth of the area. An invitation has been extended to teach in 15 local schools and participate in a leadership training program for nearly 200 pastors and church leaders.
While it remains unclear what happened at this particular HA event, a disturbing patten has seemingly developed. Ex-gay activists appear in African countries right before spasms of violence and persecution erupt.
Is this a mere coincidence or is the groundwork being laid for attacks on LGBT people? Are American ex-gays being used as a means to justify terror tactics and horror against innocent people? Do American “ex-gay” activists allow dangerous regimes and frothing mobs to rationalize violence by claiming, “these people deserve what they get because they can change?”
Truth Wins Out left a message this morning for HA to obtain more information on the group’s role in Kenya. They have yet to return our call.
The BBC reports that Kenyan police have released five people arrested for planning a “gay wedding” north of Mombasa, saying there was no evidence to prosecute them. But police spokesman Martha Mutegi told the BBC the men had been advised to leave the area for their own safety and to avoid angering the local community.
There are, however, those who dispute the BBC report. They claim that a gay wedding never actually took place and that the event was a fabrication in order for anti-forces to incite mob violence.
Homosexuality is illegal in Kenya and punishable by up to 14 years in jail. A BBC reporter in Mombasa says police began a crackdown on the gay community last week following anti-gay protests.
Perhaps it is time that American ex-gay activists stay home and stop creating mischief overseas. (Here is a glimpse of the type of false and destructive message that was brought to Kenya)
Tags: Colin Cook, Don Schmierer, ex-gay, Exodus International, HA, Homosexuals Anonymous, John J., PFOX, Truth Wins Out, Wayne BesenRelated posts
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Why is it that wherever “ex-gay” groups go in Africa, the result is violence, hatred and murder against gay people? The Bible is clear that we will recognize false prophets by their “fruit” or the results of their words and actions. Scripture tells us clearly that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree. Yet, everywhere radical “ex-gay” activists tread, the results are bad fruit. Beware! This is our tip off that what they are doing is evil, immmoral and against Christ.
Comment by Michael — February 24, 2010 @ 12:24 pm
Do we know yet who they sent? The list of names would be interesting. I’m thinking would we see some familiar names (like Scott Lively) working there with them.
Comment by Bruce Garrett — February 24, 2010 @ 1:12 pm
I don’t know. They have not returned my calls and their website has not updated with its most recent newsletter.
Comment by Wayne Besen — February 24, 2010 @ 2:01 pm
You atheists are just jealous about the impact we have in Africa. Ugandans are turning to us because they are seeing that Christianity is the right choice to save them from their hell-hole culture. I know this because I made the same move to Christianity. I read the bible and found its history and truth to be something the world should obtain. You should too. It’ clear that homosexuality is a sin and should be destroyed but you want it be human you should be supporting conversion therapy. Their blood is on your hands if you don’t.
Comment by Age of Englightenment — February 24, 2010 @ 3:15 pm
“Age”, you’re insane. Its the Christians in Uganda who are promoting the murder of gays. Its christians like you who have blood on their hands, not people like us who are trying to stop the genocide.
Comment by Priya Lynn — February 24, 2010 @ 3:22 pm
“Age,”
1. you are not a Christian, you are impenitent and barbaric like some of the polygamist tyrants of scripture — those who heroically rape women and slaughter innocent children — who are condemned by their more principled and spiritual peers and by Jesus of Nazareth
2. some of us are Christian,
3. your efforts to convince the world that Christianity is a bloodthirsty, savage, immoral, and untruthful religion will come back to haunt you someday. You shall reap the savagery that you sow.
Comment by Michael Airhart — February 24, 2010 @ 4:30 pm
“Age” said, “Ugandans are turning to us because they are seeing that Christianity is the right choice to save them from their hell-hole culture.”
No they’re not. They are turning to Christianity because they are mostly ignorant, illiterate, superstitious, and gullible. And the American Christians are in Uganda to exploit that. Religion always exploits the most vulnerable people. The world’s “hell-hole cultures” are now the only remaining places receptive to Christian propaganda and exploitation.
Christianity is slowly dying in the most advanced, civilized, and prosperous places on earth. And, yes, even in the United States, although it’s hard to tell sometimes because of all the loud mouthed zealots
So if the people of Uganda want to improve their lives, they might want to start with education, rather than scapegoating gays as the solution to their problems. The scapegoating of unpopular minority groups has always been an effective way for people and/or their governments to deflect responsibility for their own failures.
Comment by Richard Rush — February 24, 2010 @ 6:08 pm
It’s amazing how eager Ugandans are, to be exploited by American evangelicals.
Comment by Michael Airhart — February 24, 2010 @ 6:24 pm
To the extent that Christianity is dying, it is because of people like “Age.”
Comment by Michael Airhart — February 24, 2010 @ 6:43 pm
I would only add that “Age” should consider why it is that Evangelicals ONLY target the poor and uneducated for new converts when they go abroad. Oh, sure, they might have a little ministry here and there in Western Europe, but the majority of the people they prey upon are people whose lives are pretty hopeless and who will buy the snake oil they’re selling more readily because they’re craving any glimmer of hope, even the false hope provided by the sort of religion supported by “Age.”
Comment by Evan Hurst — February 24, 2010 @ 7:46 pm
What are the chances that homophobic “Age of Enlightenment” is the same homophobic misogynic “Age of Enlightenment” that I’ve encountered somewhere else? (Don’t mind me, I’m just rambling.)
Comment by Gyeong Hwa Pak — February 24, 2010 @ 10:20 pm
You KJV Bible and your beliefs are not evidence, of anything.
Comment by wendy — February 25, 2010 @ 5:30 am
The BBC report is inaccurate – a complaint has gone in.
Things in Kenya are nothing like Uganda. See my reporting here http://madikazemi.blogspot.com/2010/02/kenya-mtwapa-clerics-want-to-eradicate.html link there to BBC complaint details.
Comment by paul canning — February 25, 2010 @ 8:25 am
Paul,
BBC is just one of many news services reporting on the wave of antigay violence and persecution.
And the mere absence of a genocide bill doesn’t make Kenya a model of human rights and respect for human dignity. It isn’t.
http://www.edgeboston.com/index.php?ch=news&sc=&sc2=news&sc3=&id=102284
http://www.nation.co.ke/News/-/1056/860810/-/vqhvrh/-/index.html
http://www.truthwinsout.org/tag/kenya/
Comment by Michael Airhart — February 25, 2010 @ 10:30 am
I am looking forward to the enlightenment of Ugandan people when they discover that white ministers from the West view them like an ant farm – or a board game for them to play with. When they see it clearly, they will rise up against the manipulators. Christianity has nothing to do with this at all. It is based on contempt and elitism.
Comment by Zoe Nicholson — February 25, 2010 @ 3:04 pm
Wayne, As you know, I did return your call. I stated in our discussion this morning, I am completely against anyone executing or imprisioning anyone for believing he or she is SSA (sorry about the term). When it comes to rapeing children of either sexual identity by straight or gay persons ( and the witch doctors that advocate it) I see a need for the strictist punshments.
As for who went with me to Kenya, I went alone. The purpose of the “conference” had much more to do with teaching of acceptance for anyone (saving the lost children) that come for any kind of help from a traumatic background (the Clashes of the past few years)than establishing a formalized program for HA itself, although that may well come. As for connecting the HA program with violence in your first sentence, I did hear about the violence that happened with the “marriage” on the plane on the way over to Kenya so it could not have been connected to anything I was doing there. Having read most of the blog here I wonder if the technique of using such dramatic questions without even trying to get the true facts of a story before you ask them is really “truth winning out ” or just “over dramatization” ment to feed a narrow audience or advance an adgenda of “tolerance” by using the intolerance that you fight so hard against, but fail to recieve, from the rest of the public? In either case I think a more professional approach might cast a better light on the messege you are trying to send.
Comment by Doug McIntyre — February 25, 2010 @ 7:28 pm
The Bible is clear on it’s stance against Homosexual. Historical records that the Bible is God’s words and therefor should be the law. So Ugandans are just being more noble than you could ever be. Go read a Bible. Or are you one of those effeminate weak men that can’t do things for themself?
Comment by Age of Enlightenment — February 25, 2010 @ 9:05 pm
Doug McIntyre,
Did you discuss the issue of violence with the people that you met in Kenya? Did you tell them that you opposed violence against gay people, as well as criminal prosecution or mob persecution of gay people? Did you tell them that you opposed the death penalty and incarceration for gay people?
Comment by John — February 25, 2010 @ 9:54 pm
Haha, Age, did you really say that “history records” that the Bible is God’s word?
That’s hilarious.
Comment by Evan Hurst — February 26, 2010 @ 1:57 am
Michael
Gay + Lesbian Coalition of Kenya and Human Rights Watch have detailed the events – there was no wedding. There were rumours which local media picked up on then clerics incited mobs from. The media broadcast the clerics’ incitement. The BBC did no fact checking, simply took the wedding as fact (the Edge and Nation stories both contain similar misreporting). It would be farce if it did not have such serious consequences.
Read my story here for Muthoni Wanyeki’s comments on incitement and the context of a so-called ‘wedding’ in Kenya http://madikazemi.blogspot.com/2010/02/kenya-mtwapa-clerics-want-to-eradicate.html
Kenya is not Uganda, there are many civil society groups backing gays. Of course it is not a ‘model’ but it has made enormous progress within the African context. Africa becomes conflated into one place far too often in western eyes and the struggle of gays and their supporters swept away in a tide of disaster stories.
Comment by paul canning — February 26, 2010 @ 8:35 am
I should add that the report of mine linked to here detailing my complaint to the BBC does not say “that the event was a fabrication in order for anti-forces to incite mob violence”.
This is what I told Wayne:
“There are two versions of the rumour’s origins and there is no confirmation that it was deliberately planted. What it was NOT was a reaction to Obama’s statement on Uganda, as the BBC said. I have that from three Kenyan sources. It appears likely, though I cannot confirm this, that the MSM element of the local HIV prevention program has been a sore point for some while with the clerics. The rumour was the trigger for something already underway.”
I would add that in a follow-up story from a BBC reporter based in South Africa they claimed that massive anti-gay rallies had happened in Kenya. They have not. What had happened was one rally in Uganda (the other planned one was stopped by the government).
Remember, this is the same BBC Africa department which asked Africans last December if it was OK to kill gays.
Comment by paul canning — February 26, 2010 @ 8:44 am
John,
Yes, That discussion did take place several times as I was dealing mainly with people who had gone through that kind of violence.(civil strife, by both gay and straight) I am firmly opposed to any kind of personal intimidation and feel it is a sign of weakness to resort to those tactics. Equality and freedom is better accomplished when one understands (as the old saying states)”a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still”.
The way to equality is found when (perhaps after an emotional and violent beginning) one begins to realize that the cooler heads are the ones that have to deal with a successfull completion of most goals. Childish emotional overreaction as demonstrated by both sides of any issue is only a means to prolong the danger of a bad outcome.
I understand this very well, as for almost thirty years, the reality has been that well meaning people do not forget the past and equally well meaning people refuse to allow for growth and tolerance has been a very real part of my life.
Which brings to the issues on this blog. I believe that the way to equality for any issue is to stop the hate retoric (both sides) and begin a rational and less emotional discussion that can demonstrate our ability to recieve and grant the tolerance that we would have others give. (some seem to think that it’s fun to get payback but that only prolongs distrust and distroys any chance of succes in reaching the real goals.
Comment by Doug McIntyre — February 26, 2010 @ 9:06 am
Doug:
First, I want to say that I did speak to you after this post. I will be updating later. I was shocked to learn that you had spoken to 9,000 people and that you are returning to Kenya next week with your dreadful message that people can pray away the gay.
What I found Doug, is that you are a very truth challenged individual. For example, in your first comment you distanced yourself from the violence in Kenya by saying the following: “I did hear about the violence that happened with the ‘marriage’ on the plane on the way over to Kenya so it could not have been connected to anything I was doing there.”
Doug, I find that statement quite amazing considering your trip to Kenya was in November 2009 and the alleged wedding occurred on February 12, 2010. So, there is no way you could have “heard” about this episode unless your plane had a bunch of passengers headed to a psychic’s convention in Kenya.
So, to hear you position yourself as “rational” and “tolerant” is just another lie in a long list that have come from your lips.
Doug, I suggest you do your homework before commenting on this site. We do not suffer fools very well here.
Comment by Wayne Besen — February 26, 2010 @ 10:47 am
Wayne,
My error on the “marriage” that you were talking about may be true but While on the flight I did hear the conversation that two men were to be married and that the result would be bad for them. I also spoke to the men having the conversation and tried to reason with them as I always do over these issues. That conversation was civil at least and though nobody may have changed their mind on the issue at the time nobody was so impolite as to use the word “fool” when speaking with another person. Again I feel that if you do not “suffer” someone to have equil access to your discussion then it might show a bit of reluctance on your part to have any kind of a meaningful dialogue. You may just be following the script laid out so many years ago in the writings of Kirk and Maddsen (The overhauling of straight America.)
It also states in that manuscript that you should demean those that are really trying to help and claim yourself as a victim. Both techniques may work for a while but the real intentions become clear when anyone really wants to learn the “truth” as your title here trys to state. Again, after you addressed me in another “f” word yesterday I feel that respect should be given when one expects to recieve it. Please apoligize for that disrespect if you are able and lets have a civil discussion.
Comment by Doug McIntyre — February 26, 2010 @ 12:31 pm
But there’s no evidence that you’re “really trying to help,” Doug.
You may think you are, but all credible research shows that you’re not.
Comment by Evan Hurst — February 26, 2010 @ 12:42 pm
Wayne,
I just reread your note and would like to address another area that you might have a bit wrong after your “discovery of the truth”
I am going back to Kenya, as I will be going to many other countries, to do a work in establishing a series of clinics and orphanages that are primarily devoted to giving real treatment to those people who have contracted the HIV virus and have no other treatment available to them. If this is a “dreadful” message then I hope more people will get it. This disease affects both male and female, SSA and straight. Impartial treatment is a must for those people. You never stopped to ask why I was going back this time and again it seems that you have the hate before the reality on this issue.
I would like to know who coined the phrase”"Pray away the gay” it sounds like a talking point phrase similar the the “once gay always gay” that I had forced on me until I actually had a real change in my life. I have been able to live for over three decades without the tensions that SSA brought to my life. However the tension of not being “really” accepted by the major churches because of my past and the wonderful help offered by the “gay” community makes it a bit hard for me to feel the acceptance that both of us are asking for. I felt very gratified when the courts in DC affirmed the standing that ex-gay was also a protecteeed group under the new hate crimes legislation. At least I have the right to exist without having either side feeling free to just throw hatred at me and those like me away without having some recourse.
Comment by Doug McIntyre — February 26, 2010 @ 1:08 pm
Evan,
There seems to be a difference of opinion on the research the you deem “credible” Actually there is a great body of evidence on both sides of this question and some of it is being proven to be a bit bias. (both sides) However I would love to discuss this with you if you can give me a way to contact you. The discussion would take much more space than I would be “suffered” here.
Comment by Doug McIntyre — February 26, 2010 @ 1:17 pm
No, really, Doug, there’s not.
There’s real science, and there’s the smoke, mirrors, and general dog-and-pony shows that pass for “science” on the extreme fringe religious right.
And no, I don’t “do discussion,” because I don’t pretend like I care enough for that.
Comment by Evan Hurst — February 26, 2010 @ 2:21 pm
Evan,
Thanks for the honesty about ” pretending you don’t care. That seems to be the thinking on both sides of this issue for some.
I have been involved on both sides of these issues for so long (28 years with SSA and over thirty years without it) that I would be remiss if I didn’t care and keep trying to open the door of honest discussion instead of hatred and talking points.
should you change your mind the offer is always open.
Comment by Doug McIntyre — February 26, 2010 @ 3:37 pm
The problem is that I don’t believe anything you say, and have no reason to, since nothing your side says ever pans out in the court of reality.
Comment by Evan Hurst — February 26, 2010 @ 3:48 pm
Evan,
I do not remember asking you to believe me. I asked for discussion that might prove valuable to anyone who is at least a bit open minded. At my age I have finally learned that no one has all the correct answers and most people do not even know the questions. If you have all the answers please “enlighten” me. ( whoops,perhaps thats the wrong word to use here. )
Comment by Doug McIntyre — February 26, 2010 @ 5:27 pm
Doug:
You got caught in a shameful lie about the supposed marriage discussion on the plane. This was not a mistake, nor a misunderstanding. It was a lie. You also lied about your role in Kenya. Your own website says you went over there to cure homosexuals.
And how can you help with HIV? You are not a doctor, but a pastor with a disgusting, homophobic message. You offer the Kenyan people nothing but religion based bigotry. Stop lying Doug. You even told me that you are trying to open an HA chapter in Kenya.
One more lie you spread is that the lgbt community is one big conspiracy and that we take marching orders from the book After the Ball. This is a reflection of your own ignorance and paranoia. It is also the party line of Arthur Abba Goldberg, JONAH’s convicted felon. You think Goldberg is a great guy and his huge crimes are minimal. This speaks directly to your character, sir.
You say you want a discussion and we had one. I brought up the scientific evidence from the APA and others. Your only answer was NARTH’s Joseph Nicolosi. You responded to my reasoned position by elevating a known quack organization. So, Doug, you can stop pretending you are this mainstream guy who is interested in discussion.
From my short experience you have major honesty issues. You lie to yourself. You lie to others. It is who you are. It is what you do.
As you know from Homosexuals Anonymous, the first step is admitting you have a problem. Doug, you CAN stop lying . I’ve seen it done. You don’t have to be like this.
Comment by Wayne Besen — February 27, 2010 @ 9:28 am
I am also concerned that he lied in his response to me. While I specifically asked him about violence and criminal prosecutions directed toward gay people because they are gay, he responded that he talked about violence (civil strife, gay and straight) and opposed that. Saying that violence in a general sense is not the answer is not the same as stating directly that violence against gay people because they are gay is immoral and unacceptable. It is also not the same as saying that directly that criminal prosecution against gay people because they are gay is wrong.
He didn’t duirectly answer my question, and I think that there is a reason why.
Comment by John — February 27, 2010 @ 2:56 pm
It does seem that John is a very slippery character. It is very difficult to believe anything he says.
Comment by Wayne Besen — February 27, 2010 @ 3:14 pm
Sorry, John, I meant Doug.
Comment by Wayne Besen — February 27, 2010 @ 3:15 pm
Wayne, Just a couple of questions as I am supposedly so dishonest,
1. Where in my website do I use the word “cure”?
2. As I explained, I did “honestly” connect two different situatios in my mind and admitted that. What is shamefull about admitting an “honest” Mistake?
3.before you state that I am not a Doctor, You need to get your facts right. I have been given a doctrate and am cetrified to do education on addictive issues by the government.
4. I do not see the words “marching orders” anywhere in the messeges given on this bolg. So How do you “Honestly” say that is my belief?
5. Is it “ignorant” to read the liturature from both sides of any issue to gain an honest perspective as to the real goals of that group? I believe “After the Ball” states “your” methodology and goals well so I do not believe that I am “ignorant” in in statong the obvious on that issue. As to Arthur Goldberg and Richard Cohen, I had not communicated with either of them until last year and any information I have about that book was in my files long before that. After doing a “truthful investigation of that issue I found that you have used the technique of overaction not truth against Arthur. This seems to be the way you always attack. Use dramatic overstatement when you really have not completed an honest and complete investigation of anyone. It tends to get attention but is not professional in the method. That speaks a great deal about your character, sir.
6. You know that during our conversation that the reference to Dr Nicolosi was not in the context of a discussion of his methods and only part of a sentence that referenced several people. The method is again, take out of context and overdramatize.
7. The comment about my being homophobic is quite interesting. I believe the definition is usually about hating or being afraid of homosexuals. I am niether afraid of SSA people nor do I hate them. I was there to long to do either. The phobia seems to be on the side of those that refuse to stop the hate and overdramatizition and keep reporting half truths as if they were the ultimate athority. Perhaps authority is one of issues here. Truthfull dialogue certainly is.
I wish I had time to continue this note but I must do other things right now. (prepare for my trip to africa this week.)
I will watch the blog when I can.
Comment by Doug McIntyre — February 27, 2010 @ 5:50 pm
John,
I find it hard to believe that a statement against violence in any form is interpreted to mean that “Gays” are not included.
Can I draw a conclusion that perhaps “Gay” is supposed to be more equal than torture and rape suffered by anyone else. I thought that you wanted equality. but do you really want dominance or superiority. I know you are focused on the inequities of the past but that does not grant you right to become the ones that practice the hatred and intolerence that you have been trying to get yourselves.
Again the paranoia and hate seems to be coming from those that accuse the most. and as to waynes statement about “slippery” He should know about that type of activity as he seems to practice it to the highest perfection. His definition of Truth wins out seems really seems to mean, “If you differ with me your either a bigot or a hohmphobe or perhaps even worse, a christian” or it may have been a freudian slip that borders on reality when he misnamed his post
Comment by Doug McIntyre — February 27, 2010 @ 6:35 pm
Doug,
So, you didn’t directly address the issue of anti-gay violence or criminal sanctions against gay people. You didn’t have the courage to stand up and do the right thing. You went to Africa to promote your anti-gay activities, despite full knowledge of the violence and persecution that has followed similar ex-gay efforts in Uganda. You put yourself in the same category as Scott Lively. I wonder how you are going to feel about your efforts when the blood bath ensues. Perhaps it will bother you, perhaps not.
Gay people (no need for scare quotes) aren’t asking for dominance or superiority. We want equal protection from violence. Since gays are specifically being targeted for violence today in certain African countries as a direct result of ex-gay efforts such as yours, it is your obligation to directly speak to the issue. This isn’t a question of past inequities; this is about present day persecution. Your silence about anti-gay violence specifically isn’t lost on your counterparts in Africa. Speaking up specifically about anti-gay violence when gays are being targeted is no different than speaking up directly about anti-Tutsi violence when Tutsi’s are being targeted. Both situations require courage and a moral compass.
I realize that you probably feel marginalized and unimportant in the United States, because people don’t take you seriously, even within Evangelical circles. It is probably quite the ego boost to have peole actually listening to you and giving you some level of respect for your supposed expertise. However, now that you may have an audience, you must consider the consequence of what you say and don’t say.
It took lots of anti-Tutsi propaganda, the exhortations on the radio and the creation of a crisis atmosphere to trigger the Rwandan genocide. What part in triggering or preventing an anti-gay genocide in Kenya or other African countries do you wish to play?
Comment by John — February 27, 2010 @ 8:05 pm
John, my last comment was not placed in this discussion. Have I been blocked?
Comment by Doug McIntyre — February 27, 2010 @ 11:31 pm
I’ll try again.
Comment by Doug McIntyre — February 27, 2010 @ 11:32 pm
John,
that blocked comment stated that I was glad the comments you made were very good(except for the Scott Lively and “ego boost comments that I choose not to dignify with an answer at this time.
In fact I am scheduled to go to Uganda soon and am in coontact with those that are firmly against the bill in question.
I feel that those who are responsible for the harming anyone by rape and terror should be brought to justice but the bill as written does not serve the original purpose intended. I assure you I will do all in my power to fight the bigotry in that bill.
I also mentioned that the hate attacks on this site need to be cut back because they serve only to hamper the progress that has been made over the last generation to achieve equality. It seems that the hate retoric of a very few is undermining the very progress you want to make. I suggestyed that in the interest of truth You and I might investigate the truth to a very harmful rumor about the founder of this blogg being HIV positive and request him to provide results to dispell that rumor. I also suggested that we jion in sharing the truth that the method of using condoms is not entirely effective in reducing HIV.
Dr. Susan Weller of the University of Texas Medical School calculated the efficacy of condoms by pooling all the published studies of heterosexuals in which one partner was infected with HIV and the other was not. Although contraceptive research indicates that condoms are 87% effective in preventing pregnancy, she found that condoms reduce the risk of HIV infection by approximately 69%.
If that truth were proclaimed here it might save a great number of innocent lives in this country and around the world.
I am praying that this messege gets tyo the youth of this country, both SSA and straight.
Lets stop the hate and save some very real youth that need not die.
Comment by Doug McIntyre — February 27, 2010 @ 11:50 pm
Doug McIntyre wrote: “I suggestyed that in the interest of truth You and I might investigate the truth to a very harmful rumor about the founder of this blogg being HIV positive and request him to provide results to dispell that rumor. ”
Mr. McIntyre, have you no decency.
You are probably the lowest form of life in the ex-gay movement which is really saying something.
When in Africa, don’t do any work with regard to HIV. You aren’t qualified morally or intellectually to do so.
Comment by John — February 28, 2010 @ 1:08 am
John,
ok, you have again used the “your indecent” approach suggested in the Kirk and Maddsen book, but what is the “truth” regarding the rumor? Is he or isn’t he HIV positive and let the medical documentation be the true answer, and are you willing to take a stance for “morality” and safety by being “truthful” about the medical issue of the “condoms are not safe issue?” Is it considered “decent” here to teach as “truth” a “lie” that will distroy thousands of innocent youth around the world. Let’s be “intellectually” honest here.
Comment by Doug McIntyre — February 28, 2010 @ 7:06 am
John,
as to the “lowest form of life” referrence. I believe that title was reserved for those that harm or teach others to harm innocent children. (”enlightenment” probably has the correct verse to verify that.)I was one of those children and have the scars to prove it. I should be demanding that your organization begin a national campaign to promote real safe sex (which by the way is abstience) But I am afraid that Wayne and perhaps Kevin Jennings are not qualified to lead such an effort. The people that have SSA are being done a great disservice by the “radical fringe” of your movement who resort to the hate and inuendo approach displayed on the pages of this blog.
Comment by Doug McIntyre — February 28, 2010 @ 7:39 am
Oh goodness me. These abstinence only fanatics just don’t give up…. Condoms really do work. The disaster unfolding in Uganda, across Africa and Latin America is due to abstinence only programs. They do not work, the statistics on HIV transmission show that. Indoctrinating people with superstitious nonsense will not stop people wanting to be free and wanting to have control over their own bodies.
Your vision Mr McIntyre, is one of genocide.
Comment by adrianT — February 28, 2010 @ 9:09 am
Doug…
Why do you all constantly bring up that book that 99% of us have never read? It’s so weird, and you all do it. It’s such a common wingnut thing — you find a scary boogeyman buzzword and you fixate on it.
Comment by Evan Hurst — February 28, 2010 @ 11:16 am
And yes, condoms work.
Anti-sex slut shaming is just moralistic crap for people with personal problems, because it denies the reality that no matter what you do, somebody somewhere is going to be having sex. Your campaign is not for the good of other people, it’s a campaign against your own inner demons.
Comment by Evan Hurst — February 28, 2010 @ 11:17 am
I’m among that 1% who HAVE read “After the Ball” by Kirk and Madsen. I read it shortly after it came out. Actually, I wonder whether Doug McIntyre has read it himself, since he initially gave it the wrong title and misspelt the name of one of the authors — although the latter defect may be simply due to the fact that he’ patently a rotten speller anyway.
I thought that it made some valid points, but after reading it I decided that its continued presence on my bookshelves would take up space which could be better used for other purposes, and I filed it away in the dustbin. I took it that the responsibility for the facts, reasoning and opinions in it, as with most other books, rested entirely with the authors of the book, since it bore no “Nihil obstat” or “Imprimatur” from any gay organization. It certainly never occurred to me that it was some sort of “gay bible” to which supporters of equality were by implication committed, and I’m amazed at some people’ attempts to impose this position on us. They should be re-considering their own position if they have to resort to such disingenuousness in order to defend it.
Comment by William — February 28, 2010 @ 12:10 pm
Adrian, I gave a quote and you retort with a statement of opinion. which is more true?
it seems that I read or heard on national news last week that “abstenance only programs have a much better rate of prevention than any other method.
I agree that there is a better way, however. It is called marriage. “a single partner for life with faithfulness as the basis of the relationship. but that is a bit hard to find in the “lifestyle” A basis of “If it feels good lets do it” seems to be the moral standard there.
Comment by Doug McIntyre — February 28, 2010 @ 12:21 pm
If you read or heard it on national news, you were hallucinating, because abstinence sex ed WAS in the news, but it wasn’t in support of the religious-based, sex-shaming kind you sell.
And no, Doug. REALITY is the moral standard here. The acknowledgement that we live in a world of human beings with the freedom of their own conscience, and a desire to fight HIV/AIDS on reality’s terms, rather than the terms of the world that exists in your mind.
Comment by Evan Hurst — February 28, 2010 @ 12:27 pm
Evan, so good to here from you again. The reason “we constantly bring up that book is that it seems to be the method followed on these blogs and by the organizations that support them. I is nice to know the origin of a stratagy when dealing with blind followers of it. I do not thik the younger generation even is aware of its existance they just blindly follow what has been taught them by the radical fringe of your movement
As to “Anti-sex slut shaming” the key word is “morals” when you do not practice them STDs of all kinds run rampent. Yes people are going to have sex, but the real men and women will let it be guided by common sense. Which means “If I truly love you I will not put you at risk by allowing myself to indulge in potentially life threatening behaviors. I will use the ability to choose as a man not as just an uncontrolled sex desire.
Comment by Doug McIntyre — February 28, 2010 @ 12:37 pm
Doug McItyre is so ignorant that he attributes my question “Have you no decency?” to some book I never read. Most educated Americans would recognize it as the question asked publicly of Sen Joseph McCarthy during one of his infamous committee meetings. It marked the beginning of his fall as America began to recognize how despicable he was.
Comment by John — February 28, 2010 @ 12:43 pm
“If it feels good, do it.”
Well, that seems perfectly reasonable to me — isn’t it nature’ way of getting us to do all sorts of things that need doing? — unless there’ a good reason why you shouldn’t.
There may, of course, in any particular instance be all sorts of good reasons why you shouldn’t, but the fact that you’re both of the same sex certainly isn’t one of them.
Comment by William — February 28, 2010 @ 12:43 pm
William, I guess 1% may be correct. And just for clarity, Wayne used the After the ball title when I had used the article written before that under a different title. However the writers of both are the same people but one used a pen name in the first article I quoted.
As to my spelling, I have a physical limitation that does not allow me to type quickly so when I get in a hurry the errors are the result. and I am not used to blogging enough to know all the high tech stuff.
So forgive my minor failing please.
Evan, I only quoted what I saw. You added the religious implication here, Are you so afraid of religion that everything is caused by it. thats paranoid
Comment by Doug McIntyre — February 28, 2010 @ 1:09 pm
John, maybe you aught to read it and stop throwing “MacCarthy hate speach. It dosent work with me.
Comment by Doug McIntyre — February 28, 2010 @ 1:12 pm
William, I think you got it!! SSA is not a good reason to put anyone at risk. especially when your organization claims to have the “Truth winning out” We as humans are better than that. If “it feels good” is enough to follow your reasonong I would have to question your abiliy to maturely reason the issue out, or be of help to anyone regarding death threatening issues such as HIV or STDEs.
Comment by Doug McIntyre — February 28, 2010 @ 1:30 pm
Yes, but you have no right to dictate anyone else’s morals! Especially your RELIGIOUS morals. And for a person who traipses off to Africa all the time, you don’t seem to know the first thing about the cultural situation in many areas over there, and how lack of real sex education keeps people from making the empowering decisions to protect themselves.
Comment by Evan Hurst — February 28, 2010 @ 1:39 pm
So you’re not motivated by religion?
Because you’re certainly not motivated by reason, science, or common sense.
Comment by Evan Hurst — February 28, 2010 @ 1:40 pm
Doug
Of course, a quote about decency from the McCarthy hearing in the 1950s isn’t going to work on you.
Comment by John — February 28, 2010 @ 1:42 pm
Doug
Do parents in Africa allow you to be alone with their children?
Comment by John — February 28, 2010 @ 1:52 pm
Mr McIntyre
I give you the opinion based on PEER REVIEWED scientific studies, published in accredited, peer revewed journals. I base my opinions on evidence, not what is revealed to me in news reports.
We can see that HIV infections are soaring again in Uganda since2004, since the switch to murderously disastrous abstinence only programs, with money diverted to fanatical condom-burning theocratic nutcases, with encouragement from US pastors.
Another useful source is from Peter Bearman and Hannah Br?ºckner, “Promising the Future: Virginity Pledges as they Affect Transition to First Intercourse,” American Journal of Sociology, 106.4 (2001): 859-912; and Peter Bearman and Hannah Br?ºckner, “After the promise: The STD consequences of adolescent virginity pledges,” Journal of Adolescent Health 36.4 (2005): 859-912.
It is neatly summed up here
http://www.communityactionkit.org/index.cfm?pageId=901
“The study also found that those young people who took a pledge were one third less likely to use contraception when they did become sexually active than their peers who had not pledged. These teens are, therefore, more vulnerable to HIV, other sexually transmitted diseases (STDs), and unintended pregnancy. Further research has confirmed that young people who have taken a pledge are equally as likely to contract an STD as their non-pledging peers. The data also shows that in communities where a significant proportion of adolescents (20%) take a virginity pledge, overall STD rates were significantly higher than in other settings.”
You say “I agree that there is a better way, however. It is called marriage.”
This is geat news – I guess you will be supporting gay marriage too? What better way could there be to encourage gay people to settle down, than to ensure their relationship with the person they love the most, are given the same protections and rights as anyone else? You don’t need to answer that by the way.
Yes – we are extremely alarmed by the ‘religious implication’ especially as the bible is not a useful guide to finding out the truth about human nature, our relatinship to the world and the universe, or indeed how life evolved. Religious belief on sexuality for instance, does not have a place in rational debate, since biblical authors had no idea about how the human mind worked, or even where the mind was.
If you have a personal issue with homosexuality – fine, you have the right not to have relationships with other men. So long as you stop telling other people what to do, I don’t give a damn.
The good news, Mr McIntyre, is that unlike sexual orientation, fundamentalist religious belief is changeable and curable. All you need is a good dose of reason, evidence and logic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQjkOFooyG8
If you can provide a good reason why the Legend of Genesis is any nearer to truth than the Hindu myth or the Cherokee myth, then I’ll listen to you. But until then you have all your work ahead of you, and your claims will be met with ridicule.
Comment by adrianT — February 28, 2010 @ 1:59 pm
Evan, you may be right here, the sex education that teaches dangerous lifestyles is even rampant in the US thanks to your efforts to stop anyone that disagrees with you from speaking. usually by intimidation.
As to the lack of morals, history has shown that any culture that allows rampant immorallity is doom to failure.
I have to end this for now as the work ethic needs my attention. (make money to support my wife and family)
It’s been interesting to chat with all of you. I will be back but until then you might find another group to attack.
Comment by Doug McIntyre — February 28, 2010 @ 2:01 pm
Doug, you either don’t speak English as your first language or you willfully misconstrue what people say.
Regardless of whether you’re obnoxious or stupid, I’m through.
Comment by Evan Hurst — February 28, 2010 @ 2:09 pm
#56. Yes, Doug, I agree with you. A gay orientation, or SSA as you prefer to call it, is not a good reason to put anyone at risk. Neither is a straight orientation, or DSA (disparate sex attraction) as some might prefer to call it, a good reason to put anyone at risk. Yet both orientations are part of nature; both are, in themselves, good and beautiful, and both have a natural tendency to find consummation in appropriate sexual behaviour. However, we have to face the fact that both types of sexual behaviour can also be the means by which HIV is transmitted, and that in Africa the vast majority of such transmissions are through straight sexual behaviour.
Practically everyone outside a lunatic asylum recognizes that the abolition of straight sex simply isn’t possible, but some seem prepared to entertain the bizarre fantasy that the abolition of gay sex, and even of what they call SSA, is an option in the real world. It isn’t. That’ why we need safer sex programs for both straight and gay people.
Comment by William — March 1, 2010 @ 4:26 am
gentilemen,
Very little time for blogging today so I will sum up your comments in one note.
The hateful name calling persists as taught in the book we mentioned before.
The “Kit” method of talking points is also mentioned in that book.
The points stated by anyone that does not agree with your varius value systems are demonized as was told to be done in the book.
Thank you all for the use of ” fool”, “obnoxious or stupid”, “my inability to speak english and willfully misconstru”, and all the other derogatory terms used on this blog. They prove that you are following the script well even if you “claim” (I believe that is probably true as most younger people follow blindly only what is fed to them ) you have not read the book.
If the religious terminology is so offensive to all of you, Why do you insist on calling your unions “marriage” which is surely a vile religious term if there ever was one, Why don’t you use the civil rights you have been given and be satisified?
Why don’t you avoid all possibility of putting yourselves in the “religious” camp and do as you have always done, just “do what feels good” without a permanant commitment. (”divorce” ( complete separation of two parties because of among other reasons infidelity)( sorry, another somewhat religious implication.)(maybe I should use the term Non-monogomous )( Should I say seems to just as high if not higher among SSA unions as in the regular population as a whole.)
Thats all for today guys. I’ll get back when I can.
Comment by Doug McIntyre — March 1, 2010 @ 8:19 am
Really Mr McIntyre,
When will you people learn to mind your own business? As long as you go on interfering in the private lives of others, then you must expect to be ridiculed, or worse. Have your say, by all means, and we’ll have ours. It seems you’re not only rabidly intolerant of gay people, you can’t tolerate criticism.
Marriage is not an exclusively religious term – there is no need to believe in superstitious nonsense, or think that a celestial dictator is watching over you, to settle down in a loving relationship and build a family. This has been happening for hundreds of thousands of years before the any mythical event in the Middle East.
If being gay is not for you – you have the right not to have relationships with other men. Congratulations on your wonderful family – but we are not interested. And the Virginia Statute tells us, we don’t have to follow your superstitious interpretation of what a family should be. The fact that you were a social failure does not mean other gay people will be, as indeed, most gay people are not.
You ridicule and denigrate and attack the dignity of people who mean you no harm, and whom you don’t know. It’s high time people told you what they think of you and high time you got used to it. It’s a moral obligation to do so.
As for doing what feels right – sure will do, thanks, and it’s protected in the declaration of Independence “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
Comment by adrianT — March 1, 2010 @ 9:49 am
What a conspiracy theorist you are!
Um, Doug? Again. I haven’t read the book. I haven’t been “coached.” I simply stated the obvious, that you willfully miscontrue people’s words. I declined to judge whether or not that was because you were obnoxious or stupid, because I don’t know which I’m dealing with. I’m leaning toward obnoxious. It’s sad, though, that you think people need a book to show them how to deal with a person like you, when all one really needs is a triple digit IQ and basic reading comprehension skills.
“Marriage” is not an exclusively religious term and never has been. Marriage predates the first “revelations” of your “God.” The lowest divorce rates in the nation are in Massachusetts, where marriage equality has been legal the longest. The rest of your questions don’t deserve an answer.
Later.
Comment by Evan Hurst — March 1, 2010 @ 10:16 am
Given Doug McIntyre’s behavior here and his utter contempt for gay people, his work in Africa must be putting the lives of large numbers of gay Africans at grave risk.
His anti-condom campaign puts everyone at risk, as the rising HIV rates in abstinence only areas cwn attest. I can’t imagine what it takes to willfully do so much horrendous damage to one’s fellow human beings.
Comment by John — March 1, 2010 @ 11:16 am
Seething self-hatred.
Comment by Evan Hurst — March 1, 2010 @ 11:18 am
Thanks again boys for a demonstration the honesty and loving method you use as part of the messege you want accepted.
As for this comment: “You ridicule and denigrate and attack the dignity of people who mean you no harm, and whom you don’t know. It’ high time people told you what they think of you and high time you got used to it. It’ a moral obligation to do so.”
I think your demonstrations here affirm that theory for yourselves. I did not begin this “Truth wins Out” but it appears to prove that truth is not tolerated here in any form.
as for my getting use to it It has been the MO for your groups since the questions were raised in the 60’s. I was around then and I am very used to this kind of bigotry.
As you misstate my anti condom campaign so well please remember or look back a few post and you will find that I only asked that the truth be told as to the efficiency of condoms, not do away with them. The real problem in telling people they work much better than ythan they do and that the facts prove. It gives some license to happily go thinking the are safe when they are reall very much at risk.
So its not an anti condom campaign its a be truthful campaign and this bolg seems to want to ignor that completely.
Comment by Doug McIntyre — March 1, 2010 @ 12:23 pm
Nope, Doug, we only work with verifiable truth, not the kind that religious people put forth, since none of your “truth” can be proven by anyone, anywhere, anyhow, anyway.
It’s all made up.
Comment by Evan Hurst — March 1, 2010 @ 12:31 pm
Doug, you’re a fine one to accuse us of bigotry. We support the equality of all people, you’re all about oppressing those who harm no one. It is you who is the bigot.
Comment by Priya Lynn — March 1, 2010 @ 1:34 pm
>>>>”It has been the MO for your groups since the questions were raised in the 60′. I was around then and I am very used to this kind of bigotry.”
I am not a Christian, and I don’t love my enemies. The animosity is perfectly rational and based purely on what you say and do. It is not bigoted to oppose your evil, nonsensical superstitious preaching based on no evidence.
Comment by adrianT — March 1, 2010 @ 1:34 pm
Doug:
When we spoke, you said that you liked to go to gay bars with your gay friends. Can you please elaborate? Who are these gay friends and which gay bars in Houston do you enjoy?
Wayne
Comment by Wayne Besen — March 1, 2010 @ 1:47 pm
Priya Lynn
If you support equality why not let those of us that have successfully come out of your “lifestyle survive without a constant battle.
Comment by Doug McIntyre — March 1, 2010 @ 2:00 pm
Doug McIntyre, how can you claim to come out of someone else’s ‘lifestyle’, when you know nothing of how other people lead their lives?
Sorry – I had to laugh at this paranoid stupidity: ‘let us survive without a constant battle’ Who is stopping you living your life as you see fit? No-one. You are free to live as you please.
You are the people who are determined to stop gay people existing and enjoying the same liberties as everyone else.
Comment by adrianT — March 1, 2010 @ 2:09 pm
Shorter Doug McIntyre:
“WAAAAH, I’m a victim!”
Comment by Evan Hurst — March 1, 2010 @ 2:17 pm
Doug, we personally don’t give a tinker’s damn how you live your own life personally. We do care that you lie to other people and spread misinformation, apparently around the globe, in a way that has has real life deleterious consequences.
Comment by Evan Hurst — March 1, 2010 @ 2:18 pm
Evan,
“we personally don’t give a tinker’ damn how you live your own life personally. We do care that you lie to other people and spread misinformation, apparently around the globe, in a way that has has real life deleterious consequences.” ( such as not informing the youth to the real potential dangers of believing that condoms are safe when you know that they are not as effective as you “Evan” state them to be?)
how can you claim to come out of someone else’ “lifestyle’, when you know nothing of how other people lead their lives? (Just an educated guess after over twenty five years of living in that lifestyle)
Sorry — I had to laugh at this paranoid (? Whats the meaning of paranoid? answer “afraid of” I feel a lot of fear coming in your replys about the right to exist for me. Are you afraid that there may be a chance that some one other than you might be correct once in a while? ) stupidity: (another really mature use of words for adults to use in a discussion) “let us survive without a constant battle’ Who is stopping you living your life as you see fit? No-one. You are free to live as you please. (You seem to be detrmined to stop me)
You are the people who are determined to stop “ex” (word in quotes mine) gay people existing and enjoying the same liberties as everyone else.
Comment by Doug McIntyre — March 1, 2010 @ 3:02 pm
post #77 I seems as I read back through these 75 posts that “you” are the one claiming to be the victim of everybody that has a different opinon than yours.
Comment by Doug McIntyre — March 1, 2010 @ 3:08 pm
By the way, Where is Wayne Beson? Perhaps he is doing some “investigating” so that he can assue me that I have equal rights to speak anywhere in the world I choose. Or is he getting the answers to those horrid rumors that are circulating about him and preparing to provide real medical evidence for the world to see?
Just a question. I”ve missed his input lately.
Comment by Doug McIntyre — March 1, 2010 @ 3:14 pm
So Doug, how many gay people in Africa do you think are going to be killed or arrested during your next visit simply for being gay? Are you going to participate?
Comment by John — March 1, 2010 @ 3:16 pm
Nope just trying to protect the kids who get hurt because of the uneducated crap you spew.
And no, you have no knowledge of any “lifestyle” because you’re just one of those supposed “ex-gays” who’s been brainwashed to blame your own crappy life on your sexual orientation. I don’t know your personal sob story, so I don’t know the details, but let me guess: you were trying to fill some emotional hole, you got into drugs, you blah blah blah, and now you cop out by pretending it was sexual orientation and not your own poor choices.
Comment by Evan Hurst — March 1, 2010 @ 3:16 pm
“You are the people who are determined to stop “ex” (word in quotes mine) gay people existing and enjoying the same liberties as everyone else.”
Victim.
If you’re really “ex-gay,” then you’re straight and you have more rights than I do. Grow up, dude.
Comment by Evan Hurst — March 1, 2010 @ 3:17 pm
The most revealing part of all that Doug McIntyre has written here or said is on the above video at the 1:23 mark. He calls himself “the perfect liar.”
I would agree that he is and that the leopard apparently never changed his spots.
We have caught him lying from his very first post. He has not stopped since.
Mr. McIntyre, you are not the perfect liar – because everyone knows you are lying. You should seek help with this problem. While there are no “ex-gays” there are ex-liars, since it is a behavior.
Comment by Wayne Besen — March 1, 2010 @ 3:43 pm
One more thing Doug – please educate us about the gay bars you told me that you visit with your alleged gay friends.
Comment by Wayne Besen — March 1, 2010 @ 3:44 pm
#74 post. Sorry wayne, I missed that question. Again you overstate, I said If I wanted to go with a friend it would not mean either of us had to be or were SSA. Please quote me accurately if you are going to quote me. You said “I liked to” go. Thats interesting because I never have been a drinker and cannot drink because of several major operations and the medications involved in them. You wanted to know who my gay friends are. After thirty plus years working with people that desire to be free from SSA you know that we are an anonymous organization so even if I chose to reveal them to you I could not. However rest assured I, (like some people I have heard about) have no desire to have any contact with them of a sexual nature. It is unethical for a person doing my kind of work to even entertain the idea even if I had a desire. (Which I have not had for decades)
As you said in one of your posts, “you CAN stop lying . I’ve seen it done. You don’t have to be like this.” Wayne, I know it will be hard. Lying and overreaction are a form of addiction (pathological) but for the good of “truth wins out” you really need to give it a try
Comment by Doug McIntyre — March 1, 2010 @ 3:48 pm
No I don’t fear you Mr MnIntytre. You make claims based on superstition and nonsense, and when people ask you know something to be true you play the poor, persecuted victim. It’s entertaining if anything.
I’ll ask again. Who is stopping you, as a heterosexual enjoying the same liberties as every other heterosexuals? You’re married, with kids and crandchildren. Which liberties are you and your families not able to enjoy, and who is stopping you? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, otherwise, yes, you are spouting paranoid gibberish.
I could care less about your sexual orientation or how you express yourself sexually. I do care a lot about the way you whip up hatred against gay people who want absolutely nothing to do with your superstitious drivel, and how your organization links itself to other organizations intent on denying LGBT people civil liberties. Linking with extremist cranks like PFOX, an organization that ultimately wants to see gays thrown in jail, is enough to justify a great deal of anger aimed at you.
Comment by adrianT — March 1, 2010 @ 4:36 pm
Doug said “If you support equality why not let those of us that have successfully come out of your “lifestyle survive without a constant battle.”.
No one’s preventing you from living however you choose to Doug, stop lying. It is evil people like you who are trying to deny gays equal rights.
Comment by Priya Lynn — March 1, 2010 @ 5:04 pm
Doug:
How is Colin Cook? He is the founder of your organization. Please tell us about the nude massages? How about John J? Please tell us about his sordid history, Doug?
Your organization was founded in failure and sexual dysfunction. It takes someone like yourself – who denies reality and is uniquely truth challenged – to run such a failed organization with a tawdry record.
Comment by Wayne Besen — March 1, 2010 @ 5:16 pm
Doug said “You are the people who are determined to stop “ex” (word in quotes mine) gay people existing and enjoying the same liberties as everyone else.”.
See, now you’re lying again Doug. You can’t give a single example of us trying to stop you from existing or having the same liberties as everyone else, can you?
Doug said “Where is Wayne Beson…is he getting the answers to those horrid rumors that are circulating about him”
What shameful behavior on your part Doug. You call the rumour horrid but yet you are the one who’s spreading it. You’re not fooling anyone with that facade, you’re just a shameful evil person pathetically trying to smear those who stand against your agenda of oppression.
Comment by Priya Lynn — March 1, 2010 @ 5:16 pm
Wayne,
Your are right I am not the “perfect liar” anymore because of the very reasons you state it is a learned behavior as is the SSA within al of us.
Again you misquote or take out of context. In the “You Tube” clip you will hear me say that I had to become a perfect liar to survive the very things you are supposedly haveing to face yourselves. So I am sure you understand the quote in it’s proper context as you haved learned to do yourself very effectivly. However, After finding a way out of the lies I had been taught I have every good thing that I was never supposed to have according to your “once gay always” theory( and it is just a theory).
When you state “there are no ex-gays” arn’t you contradicting the very doctor that changed the DSM so many years ago and is now saying he was mistaken. He say he has met enough ex-gay people that he had to re-evaluate his position on the matter.
If there are no ex-gays how do you explain the changes in me? I was never attracted to a women until my late twenties> in fact the first girl that tried to kiss me I vomited on. However that never happened when I met and had relationships with men from my earliest years. Even my earlist dreams were not of women or girls but of men (
Something must have change me. Perhaps it was that “superstition” that Evan keeps talking about. (sorry Evan) Whatever it was, it has worked completely for decades now and I pesonally know a great many people who have had the same “superstious” experence.
Evan I think you stated it well when you said “You’re married, with kids and grandchildren. Which liberties are you and your families not able to enjoy?”
The answer to that question is I have to deal with the suspicions brought about by disseminated and erroneous information such as is found in the “untruths” propagated by sites like this one. Perhaps that is as you state “enough to justify a great deal of anger” but even if it is justified I have matured enough to at least be respectful in a discussion and open enough to enter into one with anyone that wants to learn.
“
Comment by Doug McIntyre — March 1, 2010 @ 5:49 pm
Learned behavior?!
What a moron.
Dude I knew I was gay when I was 11, just like you probably did. I didn’t “learn” it.
Of course, you’re a liar, so you’re probably going to accuse me of getting that out of some book I’ve never read.
And really dude, only you know what gives you boners. All we have is your testimony, which apparently has a long record of being false.
Comment by Evan Hurst — March 1, 2010 @ 6:08 pm
Priya Lynn,
Th answer to your question about anyone trying to stop me is found in the fact that without provacation Wayne tied two unrelated peices of information in the headline of this very blog together so that the reader would infer that the trip I had to Kenya led to a rise in violence (see headline at the top of this atricle) “Homosuxeals Anonymous had event in Kenya: Anti-gay persecution campaign now under way. by Wayne Beson”
I am not sure how he made that connection as my trip was in an area where no violence has happen before or since (as far as I can find out)
In the same article he states “While it remains unclear what happened at this particular HA event” (Translated He had no idea what I was doing) that could cause violence and apparently his methods of reporting are very poor at best or even entirely fabricated.
But something good has come from the fabrication. I have been invited to Uganda to give input on the legislation. I had not completely decided to go due to other commitments but now you can bet I will find a way to go. (Thanks Wayne for the inspiration)
As for “the rumor” I am not spreading as you all know about it already. All I am trying to do is find out the truth so that the rumor can be stopped if it is not true.
If I am “just a shameful evil person pathetically trying to smear those who stand against your agenda of oppression.” What do you call the actions on the people connecte with the organizations associated with Mr Beson?
If those actions are not “shameful” perhaps I need a new defination.
Comment by Doug McIntyre — March 1, 2010 @ 6:19 pm
Actually, Doug? It’s none of your fucking business, so it really serves no purpose for you to keep bringing it up.
Comment by Evan Hurst — March 1, 2010 @ 6:26 pm
Wayne, Are we back to ancient history again. Get your facts straight. Colin was Cofounder I was the other person in the organization. Colins behaviors were never part of Homosexuals Anomyous but carried out with another organization that was not directly connected with HA.
As to John J I told you last week that he had some very serious medical issues and we agreed ( I believe that since he is no longer connected with any organization we would be respectful enough to leave him alone. You apparently have chosen to disregard that request which is shameful.
I know you will deny this as it’s your usual MO but it is still shameful.
Comment by Doug McIntyre — March 1, 2010 @ 6:29 pm
Doug, pointing out that anti-gay preaching leads to persecution of gays in no way prevents you from existing or denies you any liberties other people have. You are quite simply a liar when you say we are trying to stop you from existing or trying to deny you the liberties everyone else has. It is people like you who are trying to deny gays the right to marry the one they love and trying to deny gays the right not to be fired from their jobs or evicted from their homes for something other than their ability to be a good employee or tenant. You are an unmitigated liar.
Doug said “As for “the rumor” I am not spreading as you all know about it already. All I am trying to do is find out the truth so that the rumor can be stopped if it is not true.”.
No, you’re lying again – your spreading of this rumour is the first I’ve heard of it. Your repeated reference to this rumour is an act of spreading it, no ifs, ands or buts about it. Mr. Besen’s HIV status is irrelevant to the topic at hand and irrelevant to having justice done by stopping the oppression of gays. Your spreading of this rumour serves no purpose beyond the malice you intend. Spare us your absurd lies about wanting to stop the rumour from spreading, we’re not fools, its obvious your goal is the opposite or you wouldn’t keep bringing it up.
Comment by Priya Lynn — March 1, 2010 @ 6:35 pm
Personally, I’d like Mr. McIntyre to address the persistent rumours that he beats his wife and cries after sex.
Comment by Evan Hurst — March 1, 2010 @ 6:38 pm
Evan,
it is my business if it is a complete frabrication and affects even one young person adversly.
You state “All we have is your testimony, which apparently has a long record of being false.” This statement apparently means you have no way of knowing the reality of my testimony ( have you ever heard one of my meetings?) so this fits into the “methods put forthe in the Kirk and Maddsen book. (accuse, demean, denegrate and never give up even if you are wrong.)
Comment by Doug McIntyre — March 1, 2010 @ 6:39 pm
No.
Again.
It’s not your fucking business, and YOU are the one spreading the rumor.
(Shield your ears, Mike…I’m about to fly off the handle.)
Comment by Evan Hurst — March 1, 2010 @ 6:41 pm
WOW evan thats a mature statement!! Is it a rumor you are starting or some more of waynes sketchy investigating?
Either way I know where I can trace it to.
Comment by Doug McIntyre — March 1, 2010 @ 6:43 pm
Evan, Go ahead and “fly” I have not seen a good childish tantram in a while!!
Comment by Doug McIntyre — March 1, 2010 @ 6:44 pm
Oh look, the baby doesn’t like it when it’s done to him.
The baby spreads a rumour about Wayne and it’s okay.
But I do THE EXACT SAME THING and the baby doesn’t like it.
Learn to spell, btw.
Comment by Evan Hurst — March 1, 2010 @ 6:46 pm
Sorry guys, I have to go for a while. I’d really like to see Evan fly, but I have some real work to do.
Comment by Doug McIntyre — March 1, 2010 @ 6:47 pm
Doug, there’s this horrid rumour going around that you beat your wife and cry after sex. Please post a video to youtube of your after sex demeanor and your wife’s features so we can put an end to this horrid rumour.
Comment by Priya Lynn — March 1, 2010 @ 6:48 pm
Good groef Mr mcIntyre,
So by your own admission, nobody is denying you any family rights. I don’t see the problem.
What we don’t like, is that you not only know God’s plan for yourself, but for everybody else too. If Christian superstition, and tales of mythical gardens in Mesopotamia float your boat (or ark), fine. Go and be ex-gay or whatever you are. But don’t be pushing that nonsense on everybody else.
Let’s face it, the whole purpose of your mission isn’t ust a support group for those who wnat it, your mission cannot survive without denigrating, attacking and spreading lies about gay people, who are happy as they are.
The very worst kind of tyranny comes from the belief you should decide what should make someone else happy.
Stop the political lobbying, stop aligning yourselves with theocratic fanatics like PFOX and generally keep your nose out of other people’s affairs, and pretending you know best, when you don’t.
How many times do we have to tell you?
Comment by adrianT — March 1, 2010 @ 7:03 pm
Doug:
I beg of you to please state the rumor directly and stop the innuendo. Again, for the record, it is you and you alone who is 100% responsible for the starting and spreading an unnamed “rumor” that did not exist before you posted on this site.
I want you to explicitly state what you are getting at. What is the rumor?
If you are correct with your assumption, you have nothing to worry about. If you are wrong, you have a defamation lawsuit against you and Homosexuals Anonymous that will immediately be filed.
Go ahead, Doug, be a man and make your charge. Make the allegation. Make the claim.
If you can’t do it, than you are as big a liar as I said. Here’s your big chance to break some news, Doug — Or not….You’ll find out, Doug – just make a statement and sign your name on the dotted line.
Comment by Wayne Besen — March 1, 2010 @ 7:07 pm
Still waiting Doug….This is the moment of truth. Make your charge. Either the rumor you provably started is true or it is not. We are all waiting for the allegation.
If you can’t make it, than you are a lowlife, sleaze who attempted to swift boat me with a false rumor and smear campaign.
Again, we are waiting, Doug. Make the allegation, here, on the same exact post where you provably started a gossip campaign.
Comment by Wayne Besen — March 1, 2010 @ 7:46 pm
I was just informed that you had, in fact, stated the rumor that you started. In post #41 you wrote:
“I suggestyed that in the interest of truth You and I might investigate the truth to a very harmful rumor about the founder of this blogg being HIV positive and request him to provide results to dispell that rumor.”
I guess you are out of luck, Doug. I am HIV-. You and Homosexuals Anonymous will be hearing from my lawyer.
If I were HIV+, there is no shame in that. It is just a virus. I would be open about it. But, the very fact that you would try to start such a rumor shows your true character.
Good luck in court, Doug.
Comment by Wayne Besen — March 1, 2010 @ 8:04 pm
I see, Doug, so you’re going to go to Uganda to “give input on the legislation”. I wonder what sort of input that’ going to be.
Comment by William — March 2, 2010 @ 8:34 am
Sorry boys, now that Wayne has threatened to sue me, My attorneys have advised me not to continue on this blog until my countersuit is prepared and the final litigation is completed. So Good by for now.
Comment by Doug McIntyre — March 2, 2010 @ 10:21 am
That’s okay, Doug. You are banned anyway for not only being a chronic liar who makes false allegations, but for the Sin of gossip.
Comment by Wayne Besen — March 2, 2010 @ 11:24 am
We’re not all boys here Doug, but of course ignorance like that isn’t surprising from someone who spreads a rumour and then claims he’s trying to stop its being spread.
Comment by Priya Lynn — March 2, 2010 @ 11:41 am
[...] for LGBT Kenyans, McIntyre brushed off the suggestion and became angry. He later wrote in the comments section on Truth Wins Out’ blog: “As for connecting the HA program with violence…I did hear about [...]
Pingback by Truth Wins Out - Globetrotting Anti-Gay Characters With Character Issues — March 3, 2010 @ 2:17 am
FYI – Exodus Global Alliance was “invited to take part in the Third Lausanne Congress on World Evangelization in Cape Town, South Africa from Oct. 16-25.” In 2010 – they’ve accepted the invitation according to a January 2009 Exodus Global Alliance mailing written by Bryan Kliewer.
Comment by Christine — March 6, 2010 @ 11:51 am