In February, a brave gay Ugandan man living in exile appeared at the National Press Club in Washington with a paper bag over his head to denounce Uganda’s draconian Anti-Homosexuality Bill. He wore the mask to conceal his identity because he feared for his life.
Today, Kushaba Moses Mworeko took off his mask to urge the African Anglican Bishops at the All African Bishops Conference in Entebbe to speak out against Uganda’s “Kill the Gays Bill” and other forms of anti-gay discrimination on the continent.
“It is time for Christian leaders in Africa to start promoting peace and stop persecuting LGBT people,” said Kushaba Moses Mworeko, who recently escaped to the United States. “I call on the Anglican Church to speak out forcefully against the Anti-Homosexuality Bill and to support decriminalizing gay relationships across the continent. As the church grows in Africa it must choose to be a force for good and not intolerance.”
Speakers claimed that the continent would have 673 million Christians by 2025 and lead Christendom in the 21st century. Egyptian Bishop Mouneer Anis spoke of the significance of this meeting when he told bishops from more than 400 dioceses, “There is no doubt that history is going to record what happens at this conference for future generations. This is no ordinary conference because it’s happening in an extraordinary context.”
The Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr. Rowan Williams, (pictured) spoke at the event, but has yet to effectively use his bully pulpit to shape a more accepting environment towards LGBT people in Africa.
“The All African Bishops Conference offers Rowan Williams a unique opportunity to show leadership and moral clarity by denouncing Uganda’s Anti-Homosexuality Bill,” said Mworeko. “I urge the Archbishop of Canterbury to display a backbone and set a positive tone for the Anglican Church in Africa. His silence will be seen as a green light for the witch hunts against the LGBT community to continue.”
In a new Youtube video, Mworeko sent a message of perseverance and hope to his LGBT brothers and sisters still living in Uganda.
“We shall continue fighting for our rights and the time to fight is now,” said Mworeko. “This is about liberty, this is about equality, this is about justice. We are here to reclaim our freedom.”
“If Moses has the courage to put his life at risk by speaking out against intolerance and injustice, the least Rowan Williams can do is acknowledge the inhumanity of the Anti-Homosexuality Bill while he is at this conference,” said Truth Wins Out’s Executive Director Wayne Besen. “His noticeable indifference to the suffering of LGBT people in Africa and worldwide is a great stain on his shrinking legacy. Only by finding his voice on LGBT issues can Williams reverse the damage that has occurred on his watch.”
Truth Wins Out is a non-profit organization that fights anti-gay religious extremism. TWO’s goal is to create a world where lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people can live openly, honestly and true to themselves.
Tags: All African Bishops Conference, Anti-Homosexuality Bill, David Bahati, Doug Coe, Entebbe, Henry Luke Orombi, Kampala, Kushaba Moses Mworeko, Martin Ssempa, Rowan Williams, The American Prayer Hour, The Archbishop of Canterbury, The Family, The National Prayer Breakfast, Uganda, Yoweri Musevini137 Comments »
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Rowan Williams is a two-faced back stabbing hypocrite who only cares about holding the Anglican Communion together by giving in to the right-wing bigots.
In the days before he became the queen of Canterbury he openly supported the full inclusion of women and lgbt people in the life of the church. I also know for a fact that he recently presided over a Eucharist which the gay participants had at a convention at Lambeth in England. Now when he can speak out and do some real moral good in the world, he turns tail and heads for the hills like Simon Peter–to his eternal SHAME!!
Comment by Gary (NJ) — August 24, 2010 @ 2:39 pm
Mr or Mrs Mworeko is a disgrace to Africans and Ugandans in particular. I knew he could be anything, especially when money is involved.
I pray that he remembers his vow to his wife and the child that they had so that he comes back to take care of them.
Comment by Twino Maurice — September 10, 2010 @ 9:33 am
Mr. (why would you be so stupid as to refer to a man as a Mrs?…even if he married another man, he is still a Mr. You CANNOT be that dim) Wworenko is a great man, admired and respected by most in America and through the world in those nations that are fully developed and have a sense of both decency and justice. It is good to see a man of such caliber come out of Uganda, a failed state, with a failed society full of people who should be addressing the endemic poverty, injustice, misogony, and violence that threaten Uganda, but, instead of dealing with these real problems, has leaders, and hate filled, fundamentalist and poorly educated society that chooses instead to waste time persecuting people whom the rest of the world, from Europe to South America to China and even India, are now beginning to welcome as the good and decent people that they are.
It is not possible to disgrace Uganda, Twino Maurice. It is so low at this point, it just cannot be done, and all this campaign of bigotry has done had made people in most of the rest of the world lose what respect for it we had, as no doubt you have noticed if you have at all read the news reports from the rest of the world. Everyone I know who was planning vacations to Africa has cancelled them, and friends who work with Chruch relief/aid agencies tell me that people are specifically asking that their donations go to South Africa, or LAtin America or Asia, NOT Uganda, etc.
The idea that Mr. Mworeko has brought you disgrace would be funny, if it was not so sad. No…you did that all by yourselves. No help was needed from him.
I am truly proud of our Secretary of State, our government, and the leaders and governments of most of the nations of the free world for speaking out in defense of Gay people in Uganda, and against their vicious and immoral potential law, which is based on already disproven science, meanness, and uneducated bigotry. The fact that the leaders of Uganda seem so…stunned, that they are being universally comdemned by the world for this just shows how far out of the mainstream of world society and the company of decent people they have become.
As per money being involved…well, we all know what motivates the religious right. We have seen that over and over. Truly, sad.
Comment by Gene — September 10, 2010 @ 10:23 am
Hmm….I cannot help but laugh at Gene’s outlandish ideas of decency, justice and meaning of “developed world”. Ha ha ha…it is absolutely ridiculous and a sharp contrast to what it ought to be! You guys better STOP dictating our values in the name of donations, just keep them to yourselves for crying out loud! We retain the exclusive right of what to take or reject from you and you may channel your filthy charity to elsewhere as much as you want if its at a price of our dignity and integrity of African heritage. I just do not know why you pause as the sophisticated world and are there to improve everyone! Africa can exist, as it indeed did so before you guys came and tampered with it. Colonising our land and milking everything good out of it and later bringing it back as charity and dictating what we ought or ought not to believe in like you are yourselves sacred! Ms. Mworeko had better be given assylum because that is where he belongs, in a society of dilapidated morals without a sense of purpose in the whole idea of existance! Mworeko, I know you in person and you are a disgrace to us, although I still believe you are doing this as a stunt to stay in the US and ganner wealth from them gay folks. Be a real man and seek redemption rather than be blinded by confused people who seek to create a new world order that will wind up unexpectedly. What more can the meaning of “filth” have beyond a man seeking pleasure in human sewage tunnel? Wake up world!
Comment by Pat Choya — September 14, 2010 @ 11:17 am
Pat, you’re hilarious. You don’t even know your own history. Gays were well accepted in Africa before the British came and began “tampering” with it. It was due to British influence that Africa became anti-gay. All this time you whine about the west pushing its values on Africa when in fact you’ve embraced those bigotted values and rail against the untampered with Africa that existed before western colonization. Congratulations on being so staunchly anti-african.
Comment by Priya Lynn — September 14, 2010 @ 11:25 am
Priya — thanks for educating Pat. Sadly, she is the upholder of colonialism and doesn’t even know it. We must battle such ignorance with education.
Comment by Wayne Besen — September 14, 2010 @ 11:35 am
Seems I hit a never Pat. The truth usually does.
Enjoy your failure, enjoy your isolation, and the economic and cutlrual stagnation that will come with the bigotry and viciousness that you are embracing. Priya is correct however about one thing in particular; it was the colonizers who brought this cancer to you. For that, and the inferior, fundamentalist trash version of Christianity we have inflicted upon you, we owe Africa a great apology.
In time Pat, perhaps Uganda can redeem itself. I know a lot of Ugandans who have great hope for this, even see it as inevitable…but sadly, in the short run, they are afraid. That says a lot about the anti gay bigotry…it is so vicious, so anti intellectual and anti open to intelligent debate that would blow it out of the water that it has to resort to fear.
That alone says, in the long run, who is winning, more tolerant, and where society, the Churches worldwide, and world culture are heading…and who is (for a time) being, once again, left behind.
But, you already know that I suspect.
I hope you can indeed lose the attitude of bondage to the old colonial views on this issue you currently have. Someday, Uganda will be truly free.
Comment by Gene — September 14, 2010 @ 11:40 am
You can twist history as much as you want in your favour and justify your wickedness infinite times but all that you can succeed with the Mworekos of this African continent. We appreciate the good and Reject the bad. So what if the British helped us to be anti-gay, is it a crime now to stand firm against it when they swing their ideology, must we swing with them? You guys have run out of options for exploration and you want to re-energise the most wayward of them all. In a society, some bad elements exist and they must be squashed. As true as you cannot deny that there is good and evil, you cannot embrace both. So we leave the idea of sucking human excreta you folks, just do not influence our young generation, keep it out of Mother Africa!
Comment by Pat Choya — September 14, 2010 @ 11:41 am
Pat:
You are the wicked one What you do is evil, even demonic. You persecute people, make their lives miserable and harm them — yet, you call yourself Godly.
Gay people exist and their sexual orientation is natural. Your bigoted, ignorant superstitions are what is unnatural, unscientific and un-African.
Shame on you.
Comment by Wayne Besen — September 14, 2010 @ 11:43 am
Gene, are you female man or man female? Just asking!Ha ha ha. What you call failure is our strength and I can assure you from this date foward just keep watching because you will be rotting in the next world before Uganda officially embrances this madness…What you seem to forget is that happiness is not material and economic boom as your brainwashed mind imagins. We are a happy people with or without your partnerships which only benefit politicians.
Comment by Pat Choya — September 14, 2010 @ 12:01 pm
Pat, the first rule of making jokes is that you have to have a grasp on reality. Otherwise, the rest of us will continue to look upon you as an uneducated, ignorant loon.
Comment by Evan Hurst — September 14, 2010 @ 12:06 pm
Pat, its no coincidence that the places that accept equality are the best places in the world, and the places that attack minorities are hell-holes. Enjoy your hellhole Pat, you made your bed, now lie in it. The essence of morality is do whatever you want, but harm no one. Gays by definition are moral, you by definition are immoral.
Comment by Priya Lynn — September 14, 2010 @ 12:10 pm
Wayne Besen, feels like am hearing from a psycho. I say again, justify yourselves as much as you want. in fact you guys can begin campaigning for bestiality when you get tired of humans. God forgive you all for my own sake, You truly are perverted and it wont be long before the story of Sodom and Gomorah repeats itself!
Comment by Pat Choya — September 14, 2010 @ 12:11 pm
Sodom and Gomorrah was what happened when an asteroid hit the earth and primitive, uneducated people didn’t understand, so they constructed a fantasy explanation involving a god.
Comment by Evan Hurst — September 14, 2010 @ 12:19 pm
Evan, the first thing a fool thinks is that others are stipid and he/she is the clever one, so by looking at me as uneducated and ignorant you are directly admiting what shallow mind you have. But who cares what you demons from hell think? Tjhe devil take you back sooner than you came!
Comment by Pat Choya — September 14, 2010 @ 12:20 pm
Okay, whatever makes you feel better, Pat.
At least my facts can be verified without resorting to spooky stories about talking snakes and forbidden trees.
By the way, in case you haven’t heard, the earth revolves around the sun, and women were actually not created from men’s ribs.
Comment by Evan Hurst — September 14, 2010 @ 12:30 pm
humm…you call poverty, corruption, viciousness, the Lords Liberation Army, violence, and an economy so weak it needs massive foreign assistance, a terrible child mortality rate, poor infrastructure and a low national life expectancy “strength”?
And you say Mr. Besen sounds like a Psycho.
International corporations and foreign investment decisions affect all the people of a nation Pat. Making yourselves into a nation that most of the rest of the world looks down on and disdains is not a plan for success.
By the way, the same churches that USED to say “yes…go to Africa, and take them as slaves…the Bible gives directions on how to own/buy/sell slaves! it is written in scripture!” now says “what were we thinking? Yes, it is written, but science and advances in society now tell us such attitudes are wrong, and those words were written by men to justify slavery in their place and time. The Bible is (to Christians) the word of God, but it was written down here on earth by men, and has their prejudices and assumptions all over it. So, no more slavery, even if the Bible allows it.”
The churches have begun the same process of reexamining their bigotry towards gay people Pat, and for the same reasons.
Some bigoted people (tiny minority who cannot believe they are not the majority anymore) still cannot handle this change and new understanding of how to interpret the Bible and disallow slavery. Happily, the same will happen with the faiths understandig of how to love and welcom Gods gay and lesbian children. Do you really want to be on the wrong side of this, like the bigoted people who used the Bible to justify enslaving Africans were on that issue?
Comment by Gene — September 14, 2010 @ 12:40 pm
“But who cares what you demons from hell think?” Pat’s words reminds me of the rhetoric unleashed during the Rwandan genocide.
Comment by Bob — September 14, 2010 @ 12:45 pm
Sodom and Gamora is a myth. The whole Bible is a myth, and Pat, you’re a fool who believes in fairy tales and is too stupid to realize that everyone sees you for the fool you are.
Comment by Daniel — September 14, 2010 @ 12:46 pm
Oh, Pat honey, you have so many things wrong with your statements. some people do what they do with a swastika and a bayonet. Some do it with tefillin and a prayerbook. some do it with their tribal totems and emblems, knowling that the other tribe are just hutus, or tutsis, or whatever tribes were murdering each other in your country, and don’t actually matter as much as the hatred that prompts the slaughter.
Some do it with a cross, a Union Jack, and few wheelbarrows to cart away the swag. some just do it with self serving and wholly– but not holy– imagined superiority.
Let’s just check out this wrath of God argument for a moment, shall we? Countries that let gay people live in peace and in full participation with society? Most of western europe, canada, even our own benighted US. Most of the western world, most of the western hemisphere. Peaceful, prosperous, good health care, a high standard of living, drinkable water, no starving people.
Compare this with two of my favorite, good Christian countries, Uganda and nigeria. Starving people, endemic corruption, no water, no health care, no jobs, slaughtering each other, Idi Amin, dead children, educational system a shambles at best, Christians accusing other Christians, draconian laws, tribal and religious warfare, and on and on and on and on.
If you are going to speak of the wrath of God, maybe you should take a very close look in your Ugandan mirror. Maybe you should try not speaking for God. maybe you should understand the meaning of megalomania on a national scale. Maybe you should read about scapegoats in your precious bible.
Maybe you should think about what Jesus had to say, instead of listening to hearts filled with hatred, fear, and ignorance.
And finally, maybe you should understand that when people start explaining to you how gay people, who just want to live their lives, are such dangers to your society, they are trying to distract you from the real issues which affect real people and real families.
One of the reasons the world is such a mess irght now can be traced to one, simple factor– the use of gay people by the Republican party to work up their base, resulting in the re-election of george Bush, arugably one of the great disasters of the new millenium.
The WHOLE WORLD is paying for that mistake.
So honey, keep beating up and gay people. as Uganda slides irght back in to the toilet it used to be when auntie Idi was in charge, you can go to sleep secure in the knowledge that you stopped gay people form living their lives.
Comment by Ben in Oakland — September 14, 2010 @ 2:01 pm
Pat, go back and read Ben in Oakland’s and other comments again. You have an opportunity to actually learn something.
If the people of Uganda want to improve their lives, they might want to start with a focus on education to reduce their ignorance, illiteracy, superstition, and poverty, rather than scapegoating gays as the solution to their problems. The scapegoating of unpopular minority groups has always been an effective way for people, governments, and religious leaders to deflect responsibility for their own failures.
Comment by Richard Rush — September 14, 2010 @ 3:03 pm
Pat, when you say “we are a happy people with or without your partnerships which only benefit politicians” do you actually mean you’d prefer nations like mine (Canada) would not provide funding and supervision that prevents the funding from falling into the hands of your “democratically elected” politicians? Do you mean you’d prefer it if we didn’t set up rehab facilities and schools for children rescued out of the Lord’s Resistance Army – one of the most evil, demonic political groups of our day – so that they can regain sanity, part with the incredible implanted urge to kill, and re-enter life as a regular Ugandan?
You’re welcome.
Comment by Matthew David — September 14, 2010 @ 4:58 pm
You guys are all misinformed! Come to Uganda and see if we are doing as badly as u are made to believe in your ignorance! I assure you that the partnerships we get are equally from decent people who condone your wicked act. Point of correction, Uganda cannot lack decent partners, no matter your feelings. Not everybody in Europe, the US and beyond appreciates your madness. So stop wishfully reasoning that we can cease to exist because of your lot! The fact that you have run out of options for happiness in life and are adventuring in the most ugly of them all doesnt mean that we all have to empathise with your despair. I know that tomorrow you will be tired of same sex relashonships and you will be seeking pleasure from chimpanzees and at worst fondling and carressing trees!
Comment by Pat Choya — September 15, 2010 @ 7:42 am
And, Pat, not everyone in Uganda shares your bigotry and ignorance. The difference is, thugs like yourself make good people in Uganda scared to speak out.
One day, however, morality will prevail, and you and your ilk will be seen for the ignorant and superstitious fools you truly are.
Comment by Wayne Besen — September 15, 2010 @ 8:05 am
You truly WISH Besen, but thats all you can do. It is good you have some facts right, that you are the minority and we are the majority and this is applicable in your own locality and allover the world. This world will wind up before your savage lot takes over….so get used to the fact that you will always be despised by many. By the way here in Uganda gays hide and isolate themselves because they just cannot fit in society even if nobody persecuted them. They are aware that they are misfits so they have to keep hiding like the thugs they themselves are! You cant force people to love you! it should be natural! Even the crippled naturally fit in society because their conditions draw empathy and are acceptable, and those who are crippled have esteem and do not hide…but you guys or gays? are aware that your orientations are as truly unnatural as a man naturary getting pregnant. You may justify your lack of faith in many ways but there are things you can NEVER undo, such as yourself being the product of man and woman and not woman and woman or man and man. You are yourself a testimony of that natural order or you wouldnt be part of this precious existance. Take time to reflect deeply and you will be puzzled at how many things you can never undo with your unnatural perspective about life.
Comment by Pat Choya — September 15, 2010 @ 8:42 am
Oh Pat…is this really the best you can do? Do you notice you have no answers to our arguements? Do you realize you have fallen to maknig ridiculous statements about monkeys, but, cannot seem to address the questions about the STAGGERING failures in your own country, and how sad it is that your government is not addressing the pain and suffering of the truly weak, the survivors of the “lords Resistance Army” and the heinous health proplems of the Uganda people?
You say “come to Uganda and see!”. Well, one of my best friends on earth was there two months ago, and she wept as she told me what she saw there. Guess what? We know a LOT more about you than you do about us and our societies.
Lets consider this. You wont like it, and you will probably just respond with the bigotry and viciousness that you have shown over and over again (I blame the inferior form of Christianity that still holds sway there…as the descendent of Missionaries, I apologize for my ancestors). So, lets look at the nations that are the most gay friendly.
Sweden, Norway, Finland, The Netherlands, Canada, New Zealand, Spain, Portugul, Belgium, Austria, and to a real but lesser degree, the US, Argentina, South Africa. etc.
What do they have in common? South Africa is the richest and most vibrant country in Africa. The Europenas are the most peaceful, tolerant, and open societies on EARTH. The US and Argentina are beacons of hope and immigrations for millions. In each of these nations, the rule of law is in place, and poverty is low (or in the Nordic countries, almost non existant). Even South Africas problems, bad as they are, make it a paradise compared to most of Africa…which is why SO MANY African refugees from Zimbabwe and Malawi and other nations go their illegally.
Now, lets look at the most homophobic and anti gay nations.
Zimbabwe is a basket case. You know this. Does their leader spend time trying to impriove the nation? No, he demolishes it, and spends countless hours wasting time making life hell for gay people.
Iran. Another nation smart people leave…and a case in point for being an international pariah with massive economic sanctions.
Nigeria. NEED I SAY MORE?
Think about it. China, the next rising superpower, is building gay bars with GOVERNMENT money (check it out, its true) and tolerance and acceptance of gay people is growing there by the hour, I am happy to report.
India just removed THEIR colonial British anti gay laws last year and gay life and culture are surprisingly vibrant there. (when will Uganda decide to be truly independent like this?). India is another great power rising. Those two are half of humanity just by themselves. The US, and ALL of the west, are doing the same. Argentina, a beautiful and rich nation, just passed gay marriage, and most of South American is in the process of doing the same. Mexico has done so, All of Europe, from Britain, the seat of the Commonwealth, to France, the heart of the Francaphone world, have put in place laws that protect their gay citizens and honor their relationships.
People move TO these countries Pat….people move FROM nations like yours, and Zimbabwe, and Russia and Iran. And you DARE give us advice? thats funny.
And you know it
You know the reason that a tiny, tiny number of fundy trash activists went to Uganda? Its because NOBODY here would give them the time of day. Even the conservative churches have FALLEN ALL OVER THEMSELVES to denounce them and the colonial intentions they have for your nation. Oh yes…you are being colonized again…by our rejects. That must be doubly hurtful to realize. But, well…facts are facts.
Long and short of it, the successful, tolerant, economically vibrant nations value their gay citizens. We use our energies to build roads and hospitals. Our churches focus more on service and worship than frightening people into giving money by demonizing gay people (some do this…but they are the minority..a very small one). most churches in this nation, the largest, by population, Christiain nation on earth, are either gay friendly (presbyterians, Anglicans, United Chruch of Christ, Lutherans, etc) and even the ones who are not are very embarassed by anti gay extremists.
You are out of the mainstram of the faith, of world society, and you look like fools. Bigoted, easily manipulated, fools. In allowing yourselves to be manipulated, you will endanger your economy, desperately needed fireign aid, and the respect in which other nations hold you. And, when faced with this, you seem to have little to respond with other than stupid crap about monkeys and trees.
You say in Uganda gays hide and isolate themselves….in better nations, the nations people move TO, and where people live longer, happier, more peaceful lives, this is not the case.
Have you honestly never thought about this? What do you get from this hatred of gay people? It seems not to have provided you anything, and the societies that function best seem to be thrilled to be free of such hatred (they see that hatred feeds other hatreds, and diverts attention from real issues).
Lastly, you are the minority in the world…as my data points out. And it is a minority that will continue to shrink…speaking last from an ever decreasing number of poor, backward, and impoverished nations that are the last ones fundamentalists can influence.
You want to choose failure? for now thats your choice. But dont expect to be treated like a first class nation, or to get assistance to do so.
Comment by Gene — September 15, 2010 @ 9:19 am
This troll has got to go!
‘Savage’? You’re the one who wants to murder gays. ‘Misfits’? ‘Thugs’? Seems to me the only misfit around here is YOU, Pat. And YOU are the biggest ‘thug’ around these parts. You wouldn’t know what is .natural’ or ‘unnatural’ if you tripped over it. Being gay IS natural. For gays. Being a thug ( such as yourself) is the height of unnatural. But Pat, take time to ‘reflect deeply’ and maybe you can undo the puzzle of your ignorance and hatred.
Comment by Devin — September 15, 2010 @ 9:32 am
Gene, so well said. I almost wish I knew some of those sports phrases they say when they score points. I’ll just say “go on with your bad self!”
Comment by Daniel — September 15, 2010 @ 11:38 am
Hey there, who are strong believers in homosexuality, it is a regret that your agents of Lucifer. Moses Mworeko is trying to look for survival in America. It is supper stupidity to read statements from you most especially from the so called Bishop Gene, he has completely forgotten that God hate such acts with passion. In Uganda we do not need your stupid Aid, You the so called developed Nations, you plundered our resources to develop your economies, and this is a curse for your own lives that is why your monolithical in your reason. Uganda is guarded by God, God will help us improve our well being. Why do you keep coming here. You can stay in your countries and improve your moral fabrics. We will not allow such stupidity to take place here. I hear the truth, which truth?? Stop being foolish, there is no truth in what your saying at all. Tell me anywhere in the Bible where homosexuality was allowed. I guess you can not trace any verse. I do not care about the numbers, I rather stand for the truth and it will let me free but not supporting hosexuality because there is no truth in it. You guys your in a dangerous dungeon really. You need the TRUTH from countries like Uganda.
Comment by Jayman Wo. — September 15, 2010 @ 11:53 am
Jayman Wo, based on your comments, folks like yourself in Uganda are in need of God because you are sorely lacking in compassion, kindness, and humility.
I don’t think God supports a people who will commit genocide against their own.
Comment by a. mcewen — September 15, 2010 @ 11:58 am
Through knowing the truth, it will set you free indeed.
Comment by Jayman Wo. — September 15, 2010 @ 11:59 am
Pat said “The fact that you have run out of options for happiness in life”.
LOL, Pat, you’re woefully ignorant. When I tried to live as a heterosexual man as you would prefer I was extremely unhappy. Now that I am a bisexual woman I am ecstatic, I’ve never been happier, I often literally jump for joy at life being so good. No, Pat, it is you who is unhappy, living a live so full of despair and emptiness that you have nothing better to do than to come to gay blogs to insult people in a vain attempt to boost your dismal self-esteem.
Pat said “This world will wind up before your savage lot takes over…”.
Those who harm no one are not savages. People like you who attack harmless people going about their lives are the savages.
Pat said “so get used to the fact that you will always be despised by many.”.
No, we won’t. Year after year more and more people accept gays. You’re in the minority and far more people despise savages like you than despise good people like us.
Pat said “By the way here in Uganda gays hide and isolate themselves because they just cannot fit in society even if nobody persecuted them.”.
That’s one of the dumbest things you’ve said Pat. Gays in Uganda hide because people like you seek to assault and kill them. If you stopped persecuting gays they’d fit in perfectly fine. You’ve never stopped the persecution so its idiotic for you to say they couldn’t fit in if nobody persecuted them – try it and see what happens, moron.
Pat said “They are aware that they are misfits so they have to keep hiding like the thugs they themselves are!”.
No, they hide because you seek to fire them from their jobs, evict them from their homes, assault and murder them. That makes you the indisputable thug, most certainly not harmless gays. What you’re doing is called projection, you’re blaming the hideous things you want to do on people who have no part in them. What you really hate is yourself, that’s why you come here to attack innocent gays in a failed attempt to try and feel superior to someone.
Comment by Priya Lynn — September 15, 2010 @ 12:00 pm
Wooooooow, am so impressed by your level of stupidity! I just cant believe my eyes and ears. you are so sick-minded and confused. Do you think God was stupid to create a smooth passage for you? How can you be so foolish to the extent of advocating for such an abomidation? How can you use a suage out-let for “pleasure”? You smear yourself with waste products and you there after say its the best! This rediculous and unbelievable! Man is for woman and woman for man. You are not disciples of the devil but the devil himself. What do you know about morality? you must be ashamed of yourselves you stupid fools. YOU MUST CHANGE FOR THE BETTER.
Comment by jolly — September 15, 2010 @ 12:01 pm
Devin, would your loud mouth be girating if your father chose another man or mother chose another woman for a lifelong partner? I dare you to say that sperms ferterlise sperms and ovules do so to themselves and beget a Devin! What right have you got to even comment about what is natural and what isn’t? Are you not tripping over what is natural and unnatural as much as it stares you in the face!!! You choose to justify yourselves by denying reality? You gays are anything but sane.
Gene, you are commendable in fostering hope for your fallen lot. Admit that you are Lucifer’s ambassodor sent to confuse the church. Again, your type of comfort is not ours and we are happy in our own way, God being our caretaker. Your sympathy is unwelcome and keep it to yourself. What I do not understand is why you insist on showing your face where it is not wanted. Who says that when a country (read politicians) passess a law to accept you even the people have accepted you? It is simply for political reasons but bottomline you remain disgusting!
Comment by Pat Choya — September 15, 2010 @ 12:03 pm
Jayman said “Uganda is guarded by God…”.
LOL, that’s why Uganda is a hellhole and the countries that are most gay supportive are prosperous, healthy, happy nations. Your god doesn’t exist Jayman.
Jayman said “Tell me anywhere in the Bible where homosexuality was allowed.”.
I don’t give a damn about your bible. It is a bunch of myths written by bronze age savages with delusions of grandeur pretending to speak for an imaginary god. They were savages just like you.
Pat and Jayman, why don’t you do something worthwhile to seek the happiness that so obviously eludes you? You think that by demeaning innocent hard working people it will make you feel better about the evil person you are, but it won’t. You’ll never feel better by putting others down, that’s why you keep doing it over and over and over, it doesn’t work. Focus on making yourselves better people, that’s the only way you’ll begin to feel better about who you are. Start with the fact that the essence of morality is to do whatever you want, but harm no one. You by definition are behaving immorally. Gays in Uganda by definition are the most moral people in Uganda.
Comment by Priya Lynn — September 15, 2010 @ 12:12 pm
‘Girate’? Err…what? I guess I’ve got as much right as anybody else to ‘comment’ on what is natural and what is unnatural. If anyone here is INSANE, Pat, it’s you. And YOU are confused. Perhaps you consider yourself a xtian. I consider you to be the one who is in league with ‘Lucifer’. God sure hasn’t been taking care of your wretched country or yourself. YOU are the guys who fell for the fraudulent anti-gay fundies who invaded your country to instigate anti-gay violence. BTW, Jolly, is there any hope YOU might change from ignorant to enlightened? Ahhh, I thought not.
Comment by Devin — September 15, 2010 @ 12:16 pm
How pathetic Priya……….By the way for the record, no one fired Moses, persecuted him or any of those lies you believe. Before he came to the US his family was aware of this and never descriminated him or reported him anywhere. He isolated himself because he was guilty about his wicked orientation. Above all he has succeeded in fooling you beacuse of a hidden agenda that we who closely know him have the privilege to know about!
Comment by Pat Choya — September 15, 2010 @ 12:17 pm
Jolly, you’re a hypocrit. Your dick is a sewage outlet, you have no problem using that for pleasure.
Pat said “What right have you got to even comment about what is natural and what isn’t?”.
The same right you have. Gayness exists in thousands of animal species – it is obviously and undeniably natural. Only a fool believes otherwise.
Pat said “Who says that when a country (read politicians) passess a law to accept you even the people have accepted you?”.
Justice demands that we have equality under the law. After that we don’t give a damn if you accept us or don’t. You can then fall on the floor, kick, scream, and wave your arms and we don’t give a damn. You are nothing but a stupid savage.
Comment by Priya Lynn — September 15, 2010 @ 12:17 pm
Pat, you’re an evil idiot. Your country has a law pending that will seek to imprison people like Moses for life or put him to death. For you to suggest no one has persecuted him is profoundly stupid. He isolated himself because of the threats of savages like you. Gays in countries that accept them don’t isolate themselves, so spare us your idiocy about Moses feeling “guilty” about his “wicked” orientation – that’s just more BS from a mouth that is filled with it.
Comment by Priya Lynn — September 15, 2010 @ 12:22 pm
Lynn,you can hung on a tomatoe tree if you cannot stand the heat…but let it be known to you that you cannot force your precence on us and expect us to appreciate you. The only people who have low esteem are yourselves because you care what we think about you…you are so touched that you must win our approval BUT LIKE HELL, NO…NAY…NEVER!You play victim just to win sympathy…if you played your game and never recruited or brainwashed others we would ignore you…but you struggle to confuse others and want them to feel the way you do. Why dont you be crippled alone and not cripple others?
Devin, I still need to know how a mistake like you came to exist! Are you a product of a father and a mother or father and father? If not, then I still insist that you should never give an opinion about what is natural and what isnt!
Comment by Pat Choya — September 15, 2010 @ 12:43 pm
Pat said “you cannot force your precence on us and expect us to appreciate you.”.
You’re too stupid to understand what I wrote. As I said previously, I don’t give a damn whether you appreciate us or not – couldn’t care less! All we want is equality under the law, then you can throw yourself on the floor, kick, wave your arms, scream “I hate gays!” and we don’t care!
Pat said “The only people who have low esteem are yourselves because you care what we think about you…you are so touched that you must win our approval”.
Listen fool, we don’t give two shits about your approval, we just want you to stop persecuting us, assaulting us, and murdering us. If you had healthy self-esteem you wouldn’t constantly feel the need to come to gay blogs and put others down in a vain attempt to feel better about your pathetic self.
Pat said “You play victim just to win sympathy…if you played your game and never recruited or brainwashed others we would ignore you”.
Bullshit. We’ve never recurited or brainwashed others and you bastards won’t leave us alone. You’re just like a pre-war Nazi in Germany. We don’t recruit or brainwash, you just make that shit up to encourage people to murder us. You’re proposing imprisoning us for life or murdering us. You assault us, fire us from our jobs and evict us from our homes. We’re not playing the victim, you evil bastards are persecuting good innocent people. The only people who are recruting and brainwashing others are scumbags like you.
Comment by Priya Lynn — September 15, 2010 @ 1:20 pm
LOL! Pat, do you REALLY think we in the rest of the world care what Uganda thinks! LOL! LOL!
I notice you did not even try to refute my points about the free/rich/successful/tolerant/immigrant receiving/eductaed soceities, as compared to the failure societies that, failing their people in most ways, appeal to the worst and the least educated tendencies an divert attention from real problems by picking on gay people.
But, how could you? The facts are not on your side, and you know it :)
The anger and passion of the Ugandans posting here shows us one thing; they are on the minority losing side of this…and they know it. We should all take some comfort in knowing that.
Still…the pain, the misery their hatefullness will cause…the inability of people to be good parents now in Uganda without having to hide their attitdues of graciousness and love…it is sad. My friends in Uganda tell me that they feel great fear now, and other friends, intellectuals and educated people of great class and dignity, tell me of their great shame.
Truly, this is a sad example of a socity broght down low by a literal reading fo the Bible. Happily, most of the world church is moving past this.
Jayman, you mention the Bible….is this the same Bible that allows slavery, and, whose written word was used as justification for white people coming and enslaving millions of your continents people? The same Bible that allows and describes much ethnic cleansing in the Old Testament? The same Bible that calls for stoning people who commit adultry? The same one that says wearing cloth of two different types (a cotton polyester blend….not that any of us on this side of the pond would be caught dead doing so) is an abomination? THINK ABOUT IT
Have you never bothered to wonder why the MOST EDUCATED and OLDEST part of the Christian world has begun to reevaluat this issue? It is for the SAME REASON we no longer allow slavery, even though the Bible says it is allowable! We now know the Bible is inspired by God, but written by men, and men put their prejudices, bigotry, and stupidity (such as supporting slavery) into it. Yet, at its truest, purest form, it is a book of Love…love from a God who loves all of Gods children, straight, gay, regardless of color, or gender.
Be thankful the church came to this understanding concerning slavery, and many other rules, ranging from cloth to the role and dignity of women.
Now, show some class…some true Christian love, and THINK. It is not a lot to ask.
For those of you who do not believe in God, I know the last parts of my comments may seem odd..even not relevant. But, while we are the majority on the gay rights issue world wide now (laws as bad or worse than Ugandas are FALLING in far more places than they are rising…and they are rising only in the poorest, most easily influenced by neo colonial fundamentalism type nations) please remember, MOST of the world IS religious. Most of the US is, including most of the gay affirming and gay tolerant people I know. To just insult and ignore the religious thoughts, misguided and out of date as they are, is to fail to understand them.
They are losing. And they are losing among the religious. Pat, Jolly and Jayman, well…they honestly just do not know. They have been fed hatred, bigotry, and a crude and imperfect form of faith. Add to this misinformation, disproven pseudo science that no one in well educated nations accepts and which has been disproven, over and over, but which their overstressed education system is not qualified to repudiate, and a government that, having failed in most things and most ways, has had to fall back on attacking the “other”…usally a desperate last gasp of a failing state. Hey, the people busy on a hateful witch hunt wont have time to think about the suffering in the north of their low land, or of the poverty, low life expectancy…or even the basic humanity and love of the people they are persecuting.
I am not saying we excuse these three…only that we stand back, appreciate our own opportunities for education, and remember; they see the most successful, peaceful, welcoming of immigrants, supporting of the weak, and supportive of the poor, nations on earth becoming gay welcoming and affirming. One of their last dearly held prejudices is being shown as hateful, backward, and as restricting their nations place in the world. When you have been told something, even something hateful, mean, and so obviously wrong, all your life, it is hard to deal with the rest of the world…and the best part of it at that, from the West, to India and China and South America, even south Africa, turning its back on you.
Lastly Pat, I know several people who are the product of a father and a father, or a mother and a mother. They were adopted, and loved, when no one else wanted them. Most of them, as it happens, are now adults, most are heterosexual, a few are gay. All are happy. It is the love of parents who MAKE a person Pat. And No one is “recruited” into being gay. Studies show the percentage of gay people is about the same all over the world…from New York to Sydney to New Delhi to Rio to….Kampala.
You claim to be a moral person…I assume a Christian…but, you called Devin a mistake. (post 40) If you are a man of faith, then you believe in God, yes? If Devin exists, and their is a God (which I believe) then Devin was, like all things made with Gods understanding and permission. will you not place enough faith in God that you can believe God knows what God was doing when God made Devin? Think about it.
Comment by Gene — September 15, 2010 @ 1:48 pm
There may be some educational benefit to reading these comments from Pat Choya, Jayman Wo, and jolly: We are witnessing a dramatic demonstration of the ultimate unfiltered extreme result of being wholly consumed by the Holy Trinity of God, Ignorance, and Stupidity.
Comment by Richard Rush — September 15, 2010 @ 1:52 pm
Gene said “To just insult and ignore the religious thoughts, misguided and out of date as they are, is to fail to understand them.”.
Oh, I understand them perfectly…and reject them totally. The writings of the bible mean no more to me than what a lunatic in an insane asylum scrawls on the wall in purple crayon.
Comment by Priya Lynn — September 15, 2010 @ 1:59 pm
I respect your right to that opinion Priya…and, after seeing what right wing religion (of all forms) has done to gay people (and others) I understand it.
But, I don’t buy into a word of communism either…but, I made damn sure I understood it, in all its forms, what it stands for AS IT UNDERSTANDS ITSELF, who its great thinkers are/were, and how it was put together. When I had done this, I found myself no more believing, but, better understanding it, and having done so, I (I am not young) was better able to interact with people who held such opinions…and, more often than not, help them see their flaws. Not knowing what they believed, or why, or showing them respect, even when not really deserved, would have dont little but make me feel self vindicated as I stood and watched a flawed system implode slowly. That was not my goal. My goal was to change minds. As it happens, several of those Ugandan friends I mentioned, once had atttidues not to different from these three posters. I am NOT saying to agree, or ignore flaws in their faith you see…or that you must embrace the Christian faith. But, not understanding them AS THEY UNDERSTAND THEMSELVES, will make education, and hope for the future, even harder to come by. Yes…I know, a odeous process…but, the only one that works, in the long run. I have seen this..and, I am happy to report, in another country (Kenya) my slow, painful debate, which became friendship, yielded good fruit. You see, my Kenyan friend, as fate would have it, has a gay friend. Who, with him at least, is free to be himself. Also, my friend is a teacher…and his potential for influence in great. Had I not approached him on his terms, not accepting them, but understanding them, this could not have happened.
It is a strange analogy, but, I think it ‘works’; When a child, raised religious, is 15, and terrified of his being gay…the best thing, I have found, is not to undercut his belief, which is dear to him, and tell him that their is no God, but, rather, to tell him “you are ok…god dont make no junk, and no junk people”. You may well believe that there is not God (your right)…but, is your goal to comfort the child in a way that the child can best accept and find solace in, or, to make a point?
In this debate, my goal, on a grand scale (which is already happening) is to win. This is impossible if we just denigrate or ignore a part of our opponants life that, in many cases, is central to them; their faith. We may well ignore, perhaps rightly, the words in purple crayon…but, its the crowd with the ptitchforks that can read it and might agree I worry about. And, like it or not, most of the world DOES see those words, if from the Bible, as worth reading. So, it pays to be knowledgeable about them, and how we read the book now, and why many Christians now embrace and love a Gay Bishop. Just saying, “stop believing the book” will only antagonize your opponants.
I hope this makes sense. I am very tired..forgive the length of it. I like your posts by the way Priya. I admire people who are not push overs, and you, in my opinion, write well :)
Comment by Gene — September 15, 2010 @ 2:22 pm
Gene said “But, not understanding them AS THEY UNDERSTAND THEMSELVES, will make education, and hope for the future, even harder to come by.”
I understand them as they understand themselves. By all means if you think I have a misunderstanding of their thoughts then spell it out. I’m pretty sure that your complaint isn’t that I don’t understand their beliefs, its that I don’t respect them – that’s not going to change.
Gene said “When a child, raised religious, is 15, and terrified of his being gay…the best thing, I have found, is not to undercut his belief, which is dear to him, and tell him that their is no God, but, rather, to tell him “you are ok…god dont make no junk, and no junk people”. You may well believe that there is not God (your right)…but, is your goal to comfort the child in a way that the child can best accept and find solace in, or, to make a point?”.
Firstly, I don’t believe you have found it is best not to undercut their belief and tell them there is no god. You believe there is a god so I don’t believe you’ve ever told any gay child there isn’t. You’re suggesting I lie to a child because he will find that comforting. No way, that’s not on. People need to accept reality even if they don’t like it. I have no reason to believe a child can’t best accept that there’s no god and that bigoted people pretending to speak for an imaginary god have tried to give their prejudices undue authority. Certainly a child is better able to accept this truth than an adult who has become entrenched and heavily invested in this belief. through a life of sacrifice to it.
Comment by Priya Lynn — September 15, 2010 @ 2:37 pm
fair enough Priya,meaning you have a right to your opinion….but, I have some sad news for you.
in your endeavors…you will lose
The 15 year old will ignore your belief that their is no God, and, after ignoring one thing that seems nonsense to them, will be set up to ignore the next idea…that is ok for them to be gay.
Do you want the moral high ground, or, to help the kid accept he is gay, and that this is ok? I find that seldom can I hold both, when the high ground involves “being right”. My point is that, when dealing with people from the 3rd world, athiesm seems utterly stupid most of the time…and, people dont listen to arguments of those they consider fools.
Simple as that.
I am not calling you a fool…I do not think you one. Just pointing out how you will be seen…and why, if you take the “your god means nothing to me” approach, every thing that comes out of your mouth or off your keyboard, will be ignored by them after they hear that.
I dont ask you to like it…just see the reality of it.
Comment by Gene — September 15, 2010 @ 4:17 pm
fair enough Priya,meaning you have a right to your opinion….but, I have some sad news for you.
in your endeavors…you will lose
The 15 year old will ignore your belief that their is no God, and, after ignoring one thing that seems nonsense to them, will be set up to ignore the next idea…that is ok for them to be gay.
Do you want the high ground, or, to help the kid accept he is gay, and that this is ok? I find that seldom can I hold both, when the high ground involves “being right”. My point is that, when dealing with people from the 3rd world, athiesm seems utterly stupid most of the time…and, people dont listen to arguments of those they consider fools.
Simple as that.
I am not calling you a fool…I do not think you one. Just pointing out how you will be seen…and why, if you take the “your god means nothing to me” approach, every thing that comes out of your mouth or off your keyboard, will be ignored by them after they hear that.
I dont ask you to like it…just see the reality of it.
Comment by Gene — September 15, 2010 @ 4:17 pm
Gene, I don’t think a 15 year old kid finds it very comforting to think that there’s a celestial madman who’s going to eternally torture him for the trivial “crime” of having a same sex romance. I think a child who isn’t at this point heavily invested in religion is going to find it much more comforting to accept that this was a story made up by people who wanted to give a false sense of authority to what they wanted other people to do.
You’re in no position to say you’ve found it best to not tell children there is no god when you’ve never tried that alternative. You have no idea how any 15 year old is going to react, you have only what you want to believe his reaction will be. What’s going to happen is that that 15 year old is going to accept that its unjust, unloving and nonsensical to eternally punish someone for the innocent act of having a same sex love. At that time they’re going to find it very easy to accept that they’ve been lied to by people like you.
Comment by Priya Lynn — September 15, 2010 @ 5:23 pm
And by the way, Gene, if you don’t think I’m a fool you aren’t sincere in your beliefs. I see you as a fool because I see no evidence whatsoever to support your bizarre beliefs.
Comment by Priya Lynn — September 15, 2010 @ 5:36 pm
Priya…I am not looking for an arguement with you…just pointing out that most of the world sees reality in both natural and supernat5ural terms. Especially these homophobes.
I was using the example of a 15 year old who IS very religious…just as these guys attacking us ARE.
IF you attack their faith, nothing else you say will even register. Just like with the 15 year old. As it happens, I have worked with kids who are GLBTQ (focus on the Q). Trust me…attack the faith first (an honest, open minded arguement against faith will be interpreted most times as an attack…fairly or not) and they dont listen. Personally, I want ot be listened to…not say something that (At one time) I would have considered the right thing, and feel good about my honestly as the kid walks away.
The animosity towards faith and people of faith on this site is notable. This is fine…it is even understandable. All I am saying is, well…most of the world does NOT see life this way. If you want to influence them, you have to talk to them in a way that does not make them just shut down.
Or, you can say what you want, fell great about your honestly, and…get nowhere.
Lots of my friends are athiests or agnostics by they way. They are some of the most moral and decent people I know, and I have no animus against them.
As per your being a fool…no…I don’t. I see you as a person with an opinion different than my own. I believe I am correct, but, that does not mean that the many logical and even elegant arguements against faith do not deserve respect. And you, as a human being, deserve respect, as do your opinions. As a liberal mainline protestant, I believe you and your beliefs have value, and that God may, in Gods infinite grace, interact with you as God wishes. God, as I understand God, is to grand and great for me to ever comprehend God. But, I know I am to show others respect…be humble, and work for justice. And, I know that people of faith shut down when their faith is mocked. Especially fundaamentalists.
Your thoughts on my faith, in truth, mean little to me.
Once again…do you want to argue about faith, or, liten to some (unpleasant from your point of view) advice on talking to people who DO put faith in the center of their lives? I wan to win them over, and, know how they think. Food for thought.
Comment by Gene — September 15, 2010 @ 6:41 pm
I like the dramatic twist between Gene and Priya…! Priya represents the typical gay person, rebelious and defiant as satan himself. Wanting to put reason to even what is metaphysical, subtle, and yes supernatural…merely to justify her wickedness. And Gene, one of such seeds that fell among thorns.
Gene you are right about one thing though, that when a person without faith attacks one with it, the best thing is to shut up…for they do not know what they are saying. Some of us can vouch for the existence of the power that is GOD, and yes Priya, take it or leave it there is a GOD who wants you to start by repenting your blasphemous posts, you are lost sheep and his hands are open, and as sure as there is night and day, there is life after death and you are the author of your fate after this life. I leave you to remember these lines when that day comes, I wouldnt want to imagine the tinge of regret on your brow at that moment,and believe it or not you shall face HIM whom you despise and denouce at this moment.I will forgive your ignorance and apathy towards THE GOOD NEWS…your lack of faith is justified by the society you live in, in which almost everything has a tagged explaination by science and technology and you have not had a chance to interface with this wonderful God whose word we defend zealously. For my part I forgive you and cannot continue arguing with you but show you the LIGHT that you ignorantly evade.
Gene, you evade the challenge I posed to you guys, particularly Devin. A person does not come to exist because he has foster parents. Anyone can feed, dress, and teach whatever code of morality they believe in to a child if they have the means. But that child has to be born first. So your having seen father and father parents is a hopeless excuse of evading the TRUTH. FACE the FACTS for once and stop dismissing everything! If you believe that Devin came from God I agree with you 100%, but God did not drop him and he was found. His father and his mother lay together and fertilisation took place. His mother carried him for nine months before he popped out. Even a test tube baby is a product of male and female. Thereafter the insane gays can adopt and teach him how to be gay…but will never have the power to procreate him. Also bear in mind that all people come from God, just like Devin who doesnt even believe this, but like Satan, there are children of God who are rebellious. The hope for them is to REPENT.
Still, Gene, I think Priya is right in not trusting in your words at all! She is right in calling you a fool and hypocrite because you do not know where you belong. Like I said earlier, you are the Devil’s ambossodor to confuse the church and alter christian beliefs. You almost seem apologetic for defending anything about God, SHAME!
People like you are the reason the Priyas of this world are lost because you offer them no concrete details about God’s existence and are swayed by the tide. You manipulate the Bible to justify your wickedness.You are the demons of confusion sent to alter the authentic WORD.
Comment by Pat Choya — September 16, 2010 @ 8:25 am
“I like the dramatic twist between Gene and Priya…!”
Of course you do!
Just like the Devil, Pat Choya delights in what they think is discord among allies. Like a serpent lying in wait to exploit. Bwhahahahaha! So much for calling others demonic. lol
Comment by Alex — September 16, 2010 @ 9:28 am
Gene, I want to believe that you are “Bishop” Gene Robinson, I inhale deeply for more oxygen when I breathe that title to you! In your earlier posts you harangue about first class nations (meaning wealthy, because I would ask first class in what?) and how they are doing well because of their level of permissiveness to SIN, yes SIN. If your christian beliefs have any base, then you would know what folly that is. Wealth and worldly power are the roots of all evil. You glorify and worship wealth almost as a god! So what if you think we are poor, ofcourse in your context of poor, because trust me we aint missing out on anything that would make us break our necks for. I have personally moved around different parts of the world too, and my work makes me meet different people, and it has never felt like HOME in Uganda. I can assure you of that. Save for my work, I would welcome every opportunity to keep intact in this land GIFTED BY NATURE, THE PEARL…, ask Churchil (RIP) if you are too conceited to admit it! Or your own Queen and her predecessors, atleast they are not hypocritical in their appreciation!
I pity you for capitalising on wealth and material consequences as pedestals for a happy people. Happiness is not bought by any of these, so when I say we are happy it is truly so even if you hate to simply understand that. You should equally know that in every country of the world there are suffering people, begrudged people for whom not everything is going the right way. Show me a nation for whom 100% of population is content and not suffering in one way or the other. For that you have no right to capitalise on the suffering people of Uganda to justify your gay activism. The Lord’s Resistance army did not attack people because they refused to accept homosexuality. Neither are the wars of the world, Iraq, Israel, Palestine, Somalia, etc going on because people have failed to embrace LGBT groups! You pin the problems of Uganda on that factor, and how shallow that is! What about the problems in the so called fast world where such groups are tolerated?
Gene, you need to revisit your faith, and you obviously have none of it, and learn that the things of this world are of no primary consequence to our belief in God. You can go on glorifying your wealth until you are damned for it! Vanity is your greatest folly. Satan will continue to reward you with a lot of that wealth and will make you believe you are okey in order to deny you the ultimate heavenly splendour. We whom you think are simple folks do not place obsession on unnecessary luxury. We are happy with what we gain and what we cannot gain we do not cry for. We do not envy you in the context that you want us to, and the Devil is yet to seduce and blindfold us with wealth. People of good will shall continue to partner with us in many ways and we shall continuously improve the lives of suffering Ugandans in the best, affordable and less complicated and damning ways possible. If you are a beleiver at all, then you are aware that the Devil hunts those with power of faith and reminds them about their problems in order to make them lose hope…and those he has already courted like you, will continue to think you are comfortable…How I wish you would begin to see pure light through clear glass and not through tinted glass!
Comment by Pat Choya — September 16, 2010 @ 9:37 am
Ah Pat…you put me in an awkward position…between an angry athiest (angry with reason) and a mere fundamentalist. I know fully well where I belong. The church, which is still, much to athiests displeasure, the most powerful agent in my society, is changing. It is you who do not know where you belong Pat.
I notice you never address the issues of how the understanding of the Bible has changed concerning slavery, the role or women, etc, and how it is now changing concerning gay people.
But, how can you? You are badly educated on such issues (partly not your fault…being where you are from) and if you address the issue honestly, you will lose the arguement, for if you say “the way we understand the word never changes” then you endorse slavery….and if you admit it does change, then you have lost the debate.
The Anglicans, the PResbyterians, the Lutherans, The United church of Christ, Many Baptists and other congregations and churches now see the Bible this way. You just have to adjust to that Pat.
Priya is right to see many people of faith, and religion, as being, often, very bad roadblocks to true human freedom and development. I was merely pointing out to her that when she addresses a religious fantic, especially one with a primitive and backward form of the faith (any faith) she will get no where if she does not try to understand the fanatics motivations, and that insulting his faith makes everythig else she says illrelevant to him.
I am correct in this.
Pat, coming from a failed society, a failed culture, and a failing state, I would not expect you to understand the thing that has allowed my soctiey, and the other successful ones, to thrive. Tolerance.
I can disagree with Priya, and still respect her right to her athiesm, (or any faith or non faith she chooses). America is and has always been a secular state, but with a highly religious people. I am American. I am concerned with Priyas freedom…her pastor, should she ever choose to have one, can be concerned with her soul. It is called Freedom for a reason Pat. Until you have it, your nation will never really thrive.
Oh yes…facts. You mention facts. The fact is, my friends were raised by two fathers. They are the legal parents of their three children under US law. They were married in their church, in a big wedding with all their parents and families present, and it was beautiful. They are a wonderful family, devout Episcopalians, members of the PTA (Parent Teacher Assocaition) and one of them is a veteran of the US marine corp. These are the facts that matter Pat. Lots of male/female couples cannot have kids either, due to reproductive issues, or age, etc. Often, they adopt and have wonderful families, just like many gay couples. You will adjust to this, or, live a life of hatefullness, bigotry, and disresepoct for others…and you will do so in a socitey that is making itself a pariah to the majority of the world, the most successful nations in particular, and increasingly, the Church, which seems to means so much to you.
Time to grow up Pat. You seem so angry. But, if I was losing this debate (on the grand world wide scale, not just this conversation), I would be angry I suppose.
I hope you think on these things Pat…and grow both in tolerance, and hopefully, learn to treat other people, and their relationships and families, the way you would want your own treated. Thats what it really comes down to…a lessen even a child should know; that is right and good to treat others the way we would want to be treated. Hopefully, someday, you will.
Comment by Gene — September 16, 2010 @ 9:42 am
Oh pat…you poor fool
The LRA attacks people because it is made up of religious fannatics and fundamentalists. I was merely, and correctly, pointing out that a society with a CANCER like that in it is stupid in the extreme to devote time to attackig gay people. But, the government needs to make an easily attacked common “other” enemy, so people wont think so much on its failures….so, gays will do as an easy target. It is easier than real governance.
You mistake success with wealth. The SUCCESSFUL nations are FREE Pat. With freedom…of religion, of speach, of the press, to be who you are (straight or gay) and to live as you personally see fit, so long as it hurts no one else, comes the opportunity for other forms of success. Both economic and cultural. The societies that worked hard, were tolerant, and welcoming, became the ones that the most hard working, successful and tolerant people wanted to move to, and did. And this collection of the ambitious, tolerant, and respectful of others, people, made the truly first class cultures, where people are free, live far longer lives, and can attain success in realms both financial, spiritual, cultural, and artistic.
Sorry…you dont get to twist this. And, there is no way to deny it; the most successful, first class cultures are the most tolerant ones. Facts prove it.
Comment by Gene — September 16, 2010 @ 9:51 am
Gee, thanks Pat, calling me a ‘mistake’. That’s just so xtian of you! I’ll tell you what’s a ‘mistake’. It’s your obvious obsession with ‘teh gay’. What is your problem? Do you have a secret longing for the touch of another man which you are trying to hide beneath your bluster ( insanity? That’s it! Because no one would be this hatefilled (and a s’posed xtian to boot) unless he had severe mental problems dealing with his own inner desires. Liberate yourself and all of your obvious confusion will be put to rest.
I am ‘naturally’ gay & completely content to be so. You on the other hand are ‘unnatural’ because you are so choked with hatred.
Comment by Devin — September 16, 2010 @ 9:54 am
Oh yes…the pearl…that was well over a century ago…look at the stats now. I am familiar with the quote. I told you earlier in the chat that a friend was in Uganda recently. She mentioned that quote…and then, she wept as she described a land ecologically ravaged, filled with hatred and bigotry, and an ugly fanatiacism. The pearl has lost it sheen in the eyes of the rest of the world. A pity…but, did you truly not know?
Comment by Gene — September 16, 2010 @ 9:56 am
@ Alex, True am happy, because you will obviously not believe when I say that I prayed about it…because the living God DOES NOT DISAPPOINT. As I lay in my bed, I cried out to God to show me a sign of his precence in all this, I told Him that if my words are causing me to sin against his people, may He forgive me and I will not return to this blog! But if His will is in my posts, may He create confusion in the camp of the enemy until their poisonous words are swords against each other! I testify and Glorify God through Jesus Christ because my prayer was answered! It is a testimony am giving in my church on sunday! Alex, you better join the right path…people like Gene are FORMAL christians, for whom christianity is a formality. Meet the True GOd in spirit, talk to him, pour out your heart, and repent, you shall be amazed at the tranformation, the signs and the new being you shall eventually become. DO not fail to try, just a try and do it with purity of heart, God WILL show you his presence. I know it is seems difficult for you to believe this, BUT DO NOT LET THE DEVIL blindfold you and rejoice in winning your soul. Do not be stubborn by justifying everything through blind reason and arguing and insulting for pleasure!
Comment by Pat Choya — September 16, 2010 @ 10:06 am
Ha ha ha ….ma ribs are aching from laughter Devin! Spare me the ridiculous outburst!
Comment by Pat Choya — September 16, 2010 @ 10:08 am
Pat, I’m glad that you can laugh about your hate & insanity. The only ‘sin’ here on this site is your hatred. Nowhere did Gene ‘glorify & worship’ wealth and you know it! Stop being so hysterical, Patsy! Your obsession with Satan is twisting your mind. You are one poor witness for the xtian faith. I suggest you get back to your bible & concentrate on the words of Jesus & bypass the Old Testament altogether.
Comment by Devin — September 16, 2010 @ 10:16 am
Poor pat…you say you have traveled…but, your travels seem not to have given you much wisdom. Priay and i will be working just as hard for rights for gay and lesbian people. Indeed, I have been showing your posts to kids I work with as an example of the hatefullness and disrespect that comes from fanatical and homophobic people, and, I must say, the effect has been very useful. I must thank you for that, although I assume that was not your goal.
As per your comment to Devin…once again, when presented with a thing you cannot dispute, you just mock it. Much like the way you just ignore data and information you do not like. You sound bitter, fanatical, and angry. Hey, keep posting. I work with kids, like I said…and when a 16 year old girl says “but, he never answers any questions, or your points about free socities..I mean…why not? And is sooo mean to people who post!”, I have a great opportunity to point out “because he knows he can’t…and his meanness and belittleing of others says alot about what his worldview does to people, don’t you think?”….and my side of the debate has just succeeded in something, for a lovely young woman sees intolerance and bigotry and religious fanaticism as the hollow things they are.
Enjoy your rib aching laughter :)
I will have to settle for success in the debate, and using your words and tone to influence others.
Many thanks
Comment by Gene — September 16, 2010 @ 10:23 am
Gene,I strongly believe you shall come to a point in this life or the next when your supposedly clever refutations will be too coarse for you to swallow back. You will PAY for misleading others and to that I have no doubt. You do not impress me at all and it doesnt matter how much you recount your kind of success…whether you admit it or not the ultimate DEFEAT and FAILURE awaits you…
Comment by Pat Choya — September 16, 2010 @ 10:32 am
Gene, we are even, because you are my example to others as well. Everyone who has seen your posts is dumbfounded at what lengths the devil can go….As for you killing the innocence of little children, you will pay as you very well know! So keep up, otherwise your cunning master would not be proud of your immitation of him.
Comment by Pat Choya — September 16, 2010 @ 10:37 am
Your assumptions about me are ridiculous. I respect your relationship with God. However, your personal relationship has really got nothing to do with me. I do believe in God. So don’t gloat about blindness and such.
The only reason I have responded to this post at all is because of the misinformation that has caused unnecessary death and destruction.
“Do not be stubborn by justifying everything through blind reason and arguing and insulting for pleasure!”
I do recall, in some of your posts, doing the same.
So you want each of us to have a personal relationship with God while simultaneously stripping that away?
I know that you believe we are wrong and against God but, I do not understand how hostility is the answer. All those things that you believe are being done behind closed doors are also being practiced by your own as well. I don’t understand why you feel the need to attack one but fail to attack all who fall under the list of undesirables.
Comment by Alex D. — September 16, 2010 @ 10:40 am
ah…post 63 by pat….the lady doest protest to much, and such comments as yours pat, well…they speak for themselves…(especially the “well I can do that do” as an afterthought in the next post!)
I admit, I do so enjoy winning.
But Pat, while you hate me…I only pity you. And we serve the same master, and the same faith. You just still approach it the same way my ancestors did when they came to your continent and used scripture as justification to enslave and pillage. In time, I have great hope for you…you would not, as I said, be the first east African who has changed their mind after seeing the facts, and gay people as just that…people, worthy of respect, kindness, and often good friends, neighbors…and, even local pastor or Bishop. Till then, I wish you well…but, you will also have to answer for the death, pain, and heartbreak you and those who think like you will cause in Uganda, for the families broker, the children who must leave their loved ones out of fear of this draconian law, and the lower standard of living that will result as more and more of the world turns away from your land in disdain.
Be careful telling others to wash their hands, when yours are so much, much, much more dirty. Even, sadly, bloody.
Comment by Gene — September 16, 2010 @ 10:49 am
Pat, have you ever heard of ‘projection’? Because that is what you are doing to Gene – projecting your own devilish posts onto him. Your threats are what is ‘dumbfounding’. Gene may believe you have a warped kind of xtianity but I believe YOUR Master is Satan – face it, Patsy, you’ve fallen for the Father of Lies, & your grotesque hatred is the mark of your Master. (And quit picking on Gene who is at least gracious enuf to allow that you might be a xtian!) Personally, I doubt it.
Comment by Devin — September 16, 2010 @ 11:10 am
Gene, u cant say you serve the some master with Pat because you are lucifer’s agent and you know it. Its haunting you thats why you are deffending your self jealously. Just accept the truth and it will set you free. You even think you deserve respect, kindness, good friends for you to spoil!, and neighbours? Its true you just want to expand the kingdom of lucifer your master……..but please ugandans are sorry for you because we wont welcome you. You have to continue being isolated, you have to hide because thats where you belong. You will instead answer for the death, pain and heartbreak because of your false preachings. And indeed many will leave their families and loved ones if they are to follow your teachings of hell!!! We dont care about the standards of living here in uganda as long as we know the truth and we are ready to fight for it, it will set us free.
Comment by jolly — September 16, 2010 @ 11:26 am
Alex, which type of God supports gay? Do you think he was stupid to create man and woman? who is misinformed? is it you or pat? U deserve insults and abusses because you are stupid doudle main not to differentiate between what is right and what is not even when its so obvious to a fool. we are not hostile to you but rather we want to show you the truth because its our responsibility. Stop those silly actions because i know you dont enjoy them but do them for your own reserved reasons. i know you can change for the better. please do. lets stand against this silly thing and the world will be a better place for all of us to live!
Comment by jolly — September 16, 2010 @ 11:52 am
My goodness.
You know who ALSO didn’t create gays? Zeus and Thor. TOTALLY didn’t because they’re pretend, but somehow people are supposed to believe that the myths that inexplicably survive are actually true?
Silliness.
Comment by Evan Hurst — September 16, 2010 @ 11:55 am
Oh, and Jolly, it is NEVER the responsibility of the less educated/more ignorant to teach anyone anything. It’s your responsibility to learn to tie your shoes without falling in the bathtub and to keep your helmet on when you get out of bed, like the nice man in the coat said.
Comment by Evan Hurst — September 16, 2010 @ 12:01 pm
Jolly, could you try to talk English a little more clearly? Perhaps you do not understand that in America we can believe anything we wish to believe & not be disrespected the way YOU & Patsy have disrespected us here at T.W.O.?
Clean up your act.
Comment by Devin — September 16, 2010 @ 12:04 pm
@Jolly
I see that you like to to paint pictures about everyone and everything. As I have said before, I respect the personal relationships that others may share with God. You have only come here to support misinformation not your beliefs. You are full of anger and misdirection.
Comment by Alex D. — September 16, 2010 @ 12:27 pm
Please, TWO admins, ban the trolls as they pop up. I know it’s like an endless game of Whack-A-Mole, but it might help keep threads on track.
Comment by Tom Ardans — September 16, 2010 @ 12:36 pm
“u cant say you serve the some master with Pat because you are lucifer’s agent and you know it.”
Oh good. Now tell us the one about the Loch Ness monster.
Grown-ups are supposed to stop believing in fairy tales.
Comment by Makyui — September 16, 2010 @ 12:36 pm
Yes, Tom, whack-a-mole is a good way to put it.
These three are close. I try not to use the ban-hammer too liberally, but good god.
Comment by Evan Hurst — September 16, 2010 @ 12:44 pm
Jolly…you think I am worried Iwould not be welcomed in UGANDA? Oh my. Think of the tens of millions of people, after hearing what a great place it is, immigrate there.
Oh. Wait. That did not happen. People LEAVE Uganda. Laws like the ones your nation is proposing, and the entire civilized world is condemning, are NOT the normal or good thing. Most of the world is moving in the other direction. Pointing out that most of these nations are growing better places to live, both economically and culturally and medically only points out that success, material, moral and otherwise, go with tolerance. Not the other way around.
Even wonder why?
Trust me…like it or not, it is you who are isolated. From the greater world community, and the church out side of Africa for that matter.
Jolly, when you have been reduced to being insutling, nasty and mean to people, as you have been to Alex, and others, you look weak in your faith (which you dishonor by your tone) and weaker in your arguements.
You two have been trying, and failing, to put us on the defensive.
You say God condemns us. I point out that God does not, and that the churches, including the Anglican one thta dominates in your country, Uganda, does not. The Episcopal Church and Church of England have been condemned by many (not all) Africans (bless you Archbishop Tutu) but, more and more Christians now read the Bible in a way that I have repeatedly pointed out is not gay condemning…just like we now read it in a way that is no longer pro slavery for Africa.
When will you be brave enought to acknowledge this fact…? Or will you admit that we have won the arguement by ignoring this fact?
You speak of making the world a better place for us all to live in Jolly…but, by every standard, the best places to live, Norther Europe, the US, parts of South America, with the greatest freedom, longest life expectancy, and best rule of law and order, are all gay welcoming. Does this mean you plan on working for a better and more tolerant Uganda where everyeone will be free, both gay and straight?
You tell people what you “know” they do not enjoy, and by extension what is not natural to them. This ability to read minds and know things about people you have never met would be really, really useful in business. Can you teach us to read the minds and hearts of people on the other side of the world? Do all people there have this amazing skill?
Lastly, that isolated thing again….just how are we isoloate? From the majority of nations and VAST majority of humans that live in socities that do not make being gay illegal? from the majority of the world Christian community? Much of it is now gay welcoming. Even most conservative denominations, like the Catholics, do not support such draconian laws, and state thatgay people are to be treated with dignity and kindness. Just who are we being isoloaed from? A band of nations south of Europe and north of South Africa?
Thats…well…not that isoloated, after all.
Lastly, Jolly…your last post to me, 68, is a keeper, from a teaching standpoint.
It shows that you dont think every person is deserving of basic decency, that you dont believe in being a good neighbor to all. Those are very basic consepts of Christian living (or decent living for people of any or no faith). when it comes down to it, you sound bitter, angry, mean and ungracious. Are these the sort of thigns you want people to associate with the Christian faith? You may wonder why fewer and fewer people in the world are interested in your kind of Christianity. Sadly, all you need for an answer, is a mirror. You come here in a manner that is crass, insulting, anti intellectul and even dishonest, for an honest discussion involves answering your opponants questions, and admitting when they have made a point you cannot counter. After your display here, are you surprised people like Priya have no interest in the faith? Or Evan? Or others?
No one was ever insutled into faith Jolly and Pat. Laws that end up breaking up families and even killing people do not strenghten societies…and they make the society that passes them look weak. The way you address people often says as much about you as it does the person you are addressing.
You have made a poor showing, truth be known. You are losing this debate worldwide, both politically and in culture and yes, even in the church. A wise man would stand back, look at the situation, and ask, “why I am being ignored? Why is my view losing the day? Why is my land a laughingstock, and, why is my government, with all its problems, focusing on this…an attack on a minority that is hurting no one, and that the attack thereon is only taking attention away from the governments other failures?”
Those would be the actions of someone with balance, and the wisdom to look up and see.
Devin, thank you for your kind defense. IT is appreciated. Yet, speaking for myself, I am obliged to offer Pat the benefit of the doubt. And yes, respect, even if it is not truly earned. He or she is a person, and I wont denigrate him or her, or their faith, in the manner in which mine has been denigrated. Nor the basic right to be spoken to/written to, bluntly perhaps, but with the dignity due. In short, I dont want to fall into the trap Pat and Jolly have fallen into. No one deserves to be addressed that way, or have their faith questioned so, of their human dignit called into question. As warped and sad as his version of the faith is, only God (which yes, he/she and I both believe in) can judge if they are truly Christian or not. I dont see good evidence of it, but, it is not my place to say.
I am better than that. In time, I hope they will be to.
A closing note. Yes, Christianity has, until recently, been very anti gay. Not so much now. Notice the referene to the Good Bishop of New Hanpshire made in an earlier post. A good man, and gay. Some religions, Buddhism comes to mind, have neer been really homophobic. And, my husband grew up in Communist, officially athiest, China. Until recently, it was virulently homophobic, as was Athiest Soviet Russia. There is plenty of homophobic blood on lots of hands….and not believing in God is NO guarantee of gay tolerance. Sorry…history just does NOT back that thought up. Conversely, as the Episcopal and other denominations show, having faith can, for some, actually lead to a world view that demands tolerance and respect for all people, both gay and straight. Thanks.
Comment by Gene — September 16, 2010 @ 12:57 pm
Pat you seem to think you are God’s representative here yet you insulted Devin by calling him “a mistake” and others as servants of Satan ect. You think you are telling the truth but you are missing the key commandment to “tell the truth in love”. I see little love in your posts. I see only judgement which is not your job to do. So, when you give your “testimony” at your church on Sunday be sure to let them know you were not kind or loving but cruel and judgmental. BTW, I hardly think the disagreements here qualify as an real answer to your prayer.
Comment by Bob — September 16, 2010 @ 12:59 pm
“And, my husband grew up in Communist, officially athiest, China. Until recently, it was virulently homophobic, as was Athiest Soviet Russia. There is plenty of homophobic blood on lots of hands….and not believing in God is NO guarantee of gay tolerance. Sorry…history just does NOT back that thought up.”
I got no beef with you, Gene, but I do have to take exception to this bit here.
Yes, there are atheists who are homophobic… for completely ridiculous reasons, in my opinion. And yes, being atheist isn’t a guarantee of tolerance. But no one says, “Because I am an atheist, I believe gay people are disgusting.” The same can’t be said for many believers.
Comment by Makyui — September 16, 2010 @ 1:12 pm
Gene, you don’t speak for anyone else other than yourself. You’re not in a position to say how anyone other than yourself is going to react to their religion being questioned, particularly a 15 year old. Children are not heavily invested in religion like you, they are much more open to questioning the truth of it. You are not in a position to claim you’ve found it better not to tell a child there is no god because you have never tried that option, you quite simply are lying when you say you’ve found that better.
The problem with your approach is that once you affirm to a child that there is a god and that the bible is written/inspired by him you’ve handed him over to the fundamentalists, you’re in no position to then argue that its okay to be gay. You’re in a VERY weak position trying to say all those passages that condemn gays don’t really mean that, they mean the opposite of that. You have no credibility when you say “Oh yeah, the bible is all true, but ignore these anti-gay parts, they mean the opposite of what they say.”.
I can point out error after error in the bible and its clear that the word of an omnisicient being would never be full of errors like that, it’s obviously the word of primitive scientifically illiterate goat herders. In addition your bible is full of one grotesque injustice after another by your god. After hearing about that the typical 15 year old is going to have a lot of doubts about the religion she’s been blindly encouraged to accept.
This is not about winning and losing for me, as it apparently is for you. Its not about being right, its about being honest and you’re asking me to lie and I certainly won’t do that. You’re a hypocrite. If an atheist 15 year old came to you and said “My uncle says there is a god and that if I don’t accept Jesus I’ll go to hell” you wouldn’t tell him there is no god because you know he would find that comforting, yet you expect me to tell a religious 15 year old there is a god because he would find that comforting.
You’re so blinded by your religion its scary, You talk about a 15 year old who’s religious and terrified of being gay and your suggestion is to tell him there is a god to “comfort” him. I’ve got news for you Gene, any religious 15 year old who’s terrified of being gay isn’t comforted by religion, they’re terrified by it – religion is the problem, not the answer. The solution is not to tell him that its true there’s a celestial dicatator out there waiting to eternally torture people for thought crimes and other trivial “crimes”, its to explain to him how religion is nonsensical, there is no evidence to support it, and over and over and over things we once thought were caused by gods have been found to have natural explanations.
Comment by Priya Lynn — September 16, 2010 @ 1:17 pm
Did I miss where Gene claimed to be speaking for all of us?
Comment by Daniel — September 16, 2010 @ 1:23 pm
Pat said ” Priya represents the typical gay person, rebelious and defiant as satan himself. Wanting to put reason to even what is metaphysical, subtle, and yes supernatural…merely to justify her wickedness.”.
It is just and right to do whatever you want as long as you harm no one. You are harming innocent people and are by definition you are the wicked one and I am the moral one. And as far as your “supernatural” goes, show us your evidence that it exists, or admit it doesn’t.
Pat said “Some of us can vouch for the existence of the power that is GOD, and yes Priya, take it or leave it there is a GOD who wants you to start by repenting your blasphemous posts…”.
LOL, then you’ll have no problem showing me the proof of your god’s existence – let’s see it and then I’ll believe you.
Pat said “People like you are the reason the Priyas of this world are lost because you offer them no concrete details about God’s existence and are swayed by the tide.”.
LOL, and neither have you provided concrete details. Let’s see them or STFU.
Pat said “you have no right to capitalise on the suffering people of Uganda to justify your gay activism.”.
We’re not capitalizing on that, we’re just pointing out that its absurd of you to claim god is blessing Uganda for its attacks on gays.
Gene said “she will get no where if she does not try to understand the fanatics motivations, and that insulting his faith makes everythig else she says illrelevant to him.”.
You keep making that baseless claim that I don’t understand religious people’s motivations. Either quote me where I’ve expressed such a misunderstanding and show why its wrong or STFU. Frankly I don’t give a damn if everything I say is irrelevant to evil people like Pat – everything you say is irrelevant to him as well, in particular given that you enable him by conceding that there is a god and are then in no position to argue with him that the bible doesn’t condemn gays. I don’t write for the willfully stupid like Pat, I write for the reasonable but ignorant people who might be mislead by his specious arguments. I write to correct his lies, and yours.
Pat said “the living God DOES NOT DISAPPOINT.”.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha! You’re a laugh riot Pat. Ask him for a million dollars and a supermodel for a wife and see if he disappoints. While you’re at it ask him to give me a 2007 Ford GT, black with silver stripes.
Comment by Priya Lynn — September 16, 2010 @ 1:36 pm
Priya, I have to disagree with your notion that ‘children are not heavily invested in religion like you’. You may not realize it but children in fundie & evangelical households ARE very invested in their religion. Approaching a kid with the idea that there’s ‘no God’ is not gonna help. It doesn’t have to be so black or white – either you’re a fundie or you’re an atheist. There’s lotsa things that can be pointed out in the bible that don’t totally undermine it, like the fact that many words in the bible meant different things than they do now. An example would be the word ‘abomination’ which these days means ‘disgusting’ or ‘horrible’ but according to Hebrew scholars the word used to mean ‘taboo’ as in whether you keep kosher or not, a minor consideration.
I do agree, Priya, that the Old Testament is ‘full of one grotesque injustice after another’. I believe you are telling the truth as you see it, but I believe the same about Gene. He isn’t being a ‘hypocrite’. Religion is not nonsensical, you’re seeing things too drastically, all one thing or the other. There is a middle ground.
But Pat and Jolly are truly evil. But that’s just my opinion.
Comment by Devin — September 16, 2010 @ 1:47 pm
Pat said “[Gene] You will PAY for misleading others and to that I have no doubt. You do not impress me at all and it doesnt matter how much you recount your kind of success…whether you admit it or not the ultimate DEFEAT and FAILURE awaits you…”.
No he won’t pay. He’ll die and rot in the ground and that will be the end of him just as it will be for you and me regardless of how much pleasure your revenge fantasies give you now.
Gene said “[Pat] you will also have to answer for the death, pain, and heartbreak you and those who think like you will cause in Uganda.
You two have more in common than you have in difference. Both fantasizing that your cosmic father will beat up the other for going against your will. Interesting how the will of “god” always exactly matches the will of the worshipper.
Jolly said “[Gene] You will instead answer for the death, pain and heartbreak because of your false preachings”.
LOL, and agian! “Wah, wah, my sky daddy is going to get you for being mean to me!”. No he won’t Jolly, your sky daddy only exists in your imagination.
Jolly said “you are stupid doudle main not to differentiate between what is right and what is not even when its so obvious to a fool.”.
And that fool is you. What is right is that which harms no one, what is wrong is that which harms others. We are by definition doing right, you by definition are purveying evil.
Jolly said “we are not hostile to you but rather we want to show you the truth because its our responsibility.”.
You wouldn’t know the truth if it bit you in the ass and it would be laughable if it weren’t so dishonest of you to claim you are not hostile. You rant about how we shouldn’t be allowed to live where we want, you want to force us from our homes, jobs, assault, imprison and murder us. You are evil incarnate.
Gene said “You say God condemns us. I point out that God does not,”.
When you assert that there is a god and the bible is important to your religon you are in a VERY weak position to be saying that. By stating that there is a god and the bible is important you are enabling people like Pat and Jolly and you will never convince them the bible doesn’t mean what it says. Don’t provide foundation for them to spread lies and hate.
Gene said ““And, my husband grew up in Communist, officially athiest, China. Until recently, it was virulently homophobic, as was Athiest Soviet Russia. There is plenty of homophobic blood on lots of hands….and not believing in God is NO guarantee of gay tolerance. Sorry…history just does NOT back that thought up.”.
Uhuh. And yet in the U.S. a poll showed that 85% of non-religious people support equal marriage for gays. Western atheists are far, far more gay friendly than religionists.
Comment by Priya Lynn — September 16, 2010 @ 2:00 pm
Daniel said “Did I miss where Gene claimed to be speaking for all of us?”.
Obviously you did. Right here:
#51 “most of the world sees reality in both natural and supernat5ural terms. Especially these homophobes.
I was using the example of a 15 year old who IS very religious…just as these guys attacking us ARE.
IF you attack their faith, nothing else you say will even register. Just like with the 15 year old. As it happens,”.
Gene claims to speak for all religious 15 year olds, and all religious people in general – just a tad arrogant.
Comment by Priya Lynn — September 16, 2010 @ 2:06 pm
Devin said “I have to disagree with your notion that ‘children are not heavily invested in religion like you’.”.
Depends on what your definition of “heavily” is. Certainly as the years go by in a religious person’s life they invest more and more time living there life in a straightjacket and it get’s more and more difficult to admit you’ve lived a lie and wasted your life. A child by virtue of having less years devoted to a lie is less heavily invested in it.
Devin said “Approaching a kid with the idea that there’s ‘no God’ is not gonna help.”. As neither you nor Gene have ever done that you are not in any position to make such a claim. What’s not going to help is to tell them there is a god, the bible is an authority and then try to backtrack and say “These parts that condemn gays mean the opposite of what they say.”.
Devin said “Religion is not nonsensical, you’re seeing things too drastically, all one thing or the other. There is a middle ground.”.
Uhuh. God sends himself to earth to kill himself to appease himself for creating people the way he knew they’d behave when he created them. An innocent person is punished for the wrongs of others. All mankind is declared fallen and responsible for the wrongdoing of a woman who ate an apple of the tree of knowledge. We know in our hearts that the most grotesque of injustices is to punish the innocent. How was Eve supposed to know it was wrong to disobey god and eat the apple when she didn’t have the knowledge of evil?
The very foundation of your religion is a grotesque injustice and utterly nonsensical. Its just that the story is so banal and familiar to you you’ve stepped back and asked “What kind of sense does it make?”. Absolutely none my dear, absolutely none. So spare me the ridiculous claim that your religion is not nonsensical – its very foundation is utterly absurd and injust.
Comment by Priya Lynn — September 16, 2010 @ 2:17 pm
Its ironic that Jolly and Pat rant about how they don’t want western values and how they want African values and yet they’ve wholeheartedly rejected the true African religions to embrace the white man’s religon and worship a white man. All the time you want to claim you won’t be dictated to by the white man you’re actually kissing the white man’s butt.
Comment by Priya Lynn — September 16, 2010 @ 2:21 pm
Priya, I still don’t see it. I think he’s presenting an opinion and even if he’s wrong I’m not sure why you’re attacking him over Pat & Jolly. But then I think you do sometimes attack allies for silly reasons (like your statements regarding Ana Kasparian of The Young Turks) rather than actual opponents.
I’m an atheist, I grew up Mormon and have no good feelings toward religions. But, I also see that there are a few denominations that are supportive and young gay people who grow up in these seem to have no ill effects. I don’t think these are all that common but they do exist.
Comment by Daniel — September 16, 2010 @ 2:23 pm
“You may not realize it but children in fundie & evangelical households ARE very invested in their religion.”
Usually, “their” religion is the same religion as their parents’, and if their parents are telling them that there’s something inherently wrong with gay people, why would they be any more inclined to believe us if we say that their idea of god is wrong, than if we say that there isn’t a god at all?
Comment by Makyui — September 16, 2010 @ 2:25 pm
Daniel said ” I think he’s presenting an opinion and even if he’s wrong I’m not sure why you’re attacking him over Pat & Jolly.”.
Because he’s repeatedly made the baseless claim that I’m misunderstanding religious thoughts and refused to quote me expressing such a misunderstanding or stop making the false claim. Because he’s repeatedly suggested I lie to a religious 15 year old because he thinks it would be “comforting” (even though he says the 15 year old is terrified of being gay – due to his religion!) when he would never in turn tell an atheist 15 year old terrified of being gay that there is no god because the 15 year old might find that comforting. He’s a hypocrite, selfish and fatuous.
Daneil said “But then I think you do sometimes attack allies for silly reasons (like your statements regarding Ana Kasparian of The Young Turks) rather than actual opponents.”.
I never made any statements regarding Ana Kasparian of the young turks.
Comment by Priya Lynn — September 16, 2010 @ 2:45 pm
Perhaps surprisingly I agree with you, Priya, when you bring up ‘creating people the way he knew they’d behave when he created them’.I have often wondered how someone was s’pose to be threatened with ‘death’ when it didn’t even exist.
Makyui has a very good point about parents passing on thier religion to their children. I was just agreeing with Gene that telling the 15 yr. old ‘there is no God’ is not gonna help the situation much. There are less drastic ways to go about it.
I was raised in an evangelical home & always took religion seriously but never took the anti-gay passages seriously. I still don’t. Now, to a died-in-the-wool xtian, I must seem to be a non-believer while to an atheist I am way too religious. I’m in the middle somewhere. That’s why I don’t think everything has to be so rigid & ‘I’m right’, ‘No, I’m right’.
Comment by Devin — September 16, 2010 @ 2:45 pm
Who the f**k is Pat Choya and why are so many intelligent people commenting to this pile of dirt?
Comment by Dakotahgeo — September 16, 2010 @ 2:49 pm
And I’m not attacking Gene over Pat and Jolly. I’ve addressed all their BS as well.
Comment by Priya Lynn — September 16, 2010 @ 2:52 pm
Dakotahgeo, Pat Choya is a pitiful wreck of a man living a sordid life and seeking a sense of self-worth in trying to portray others as more despicable than he is (an impossible task). I comment to him because its fun poking holes in his irrational rants and its useful to demonstrate to any rational but uneducated readers out there how exactly he’s full of crap.
Comment by Priya Lynn — September 16, 2010 @ 2:55 pm
Priya, if you are going to ridicule everything in the Bible at least get things straight. It says fruit not apple and it is the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” not “tree of knowledge”.
Comment by Bob — September 16, 2010 @ 3:05 pm
Right Bob, those mistakes on my part COMPLETELY discredit the points I was making.
Seeing as you’re so smart Bob, can you explain to me how Eve was supposed to know it was wrong to eat the apple from the tree of knowledge when she didn’t have the knowledge of good and evil?
Comment by Priya Lynn — September 16, 2010 @ 3:14 pm
Makyui, and also Priya, like it or not, most of this world is made up of people with a religous identity, not those without it.
To tell someone that their view of God is wrong can be jarring. They may think you misguided, and enter a conversation with you. Then, you have a chance. To tell them that their is no God, if they truly believe their is, just makes you look like a nut and a fool in their eyes.
People dont listen to people they consider nuts and fools.
You may not realize it, but, to the deeply religious Christian, god is, literally, “father”. Tell someone their dad is wrong, and you may get a fight, or a discusson. Tell them that their dad is dead, when they sincerely believe in the core of their being that he is alive within them ( a core Christian belief) and they will just…shut…you…off.
Daniel, thank you for your defense. You mention you are an athiest (fine by me, as I know a lot of very nice people who are). But, you mention you used to be Mormon. If I may ask, am I wrong in my assessment that if you approached most young (or older for that matter) LDS folk, and your opener was “your religion is just made up stuff and crap”, they would pretty much raise their hackles, and ignore everything else you said on almost any issue? I look forward to your response, should you care to share it.
Priya, the passion of your attack seems to be preventing you from seeing a possibility you just dont like. Like the idea that the same faith that did indeed, thousands of years ago, write in its holy book many of the same attrocities you describe…yet, grow past them, into the religion of the Bishop Robinson, and Mother Theresa, and Archbishop Tutu. Modern Christians are perfectly aware of its flaws…even the modern Confession of the Presbyterian church says that the Bible is inspired by God, but written by men, and thus open to error. Didn’t you read where I wrote just that, and how it has changed and grown since the times when it was used to support slavery? Sorry Priya, but, your claims that I have said what I did not, are not correct.
Also Priya, this is painful, but, I saw it happen. Not with a 15 year old, but, with a 17 year old boy in a university medical center emergency room. He had just lost his mom (dad was not in the picture) in an accident that left him more or less unscathed, and was in a state of…well…we can all imagine. A young, brilliant intern took the time to stay with him while child services was summoned (not as quick a process as you might think in an ER) and tried to comfort him. The boy, and I have this from the intern hiself, for I left soon after he went over to him, was filled with the many questions…”why?” being the greatest. But, there were many more. The intern told him that, he could at least take comfort in knowing his mom was not in pain. “yes…yeah…she is in heaven now”. The boy responded. “well…if you actually believe in such things” was the response…said with appearant incredulessness.
The boy shut down. Further attempts at conversation went no where. Questions about family, nearest of kin, nothing. The boy shut down, and, I am told, quietly, wept.
The doctor in question is still very much an agnostic. and a good doc and pal of mine. But, HE had the wisdom to respect the world view of others. He does not believe it, but, as he points out, he cannot utterly disprove it either, and (IMPORTANT POINT) he is more concerned with attaining his goals as a physician than being an ‘evangelist’ for his view of the world.
What matters the most to you Priya? Understanding these bigoted men in a way that may help you help them see the errors of their way of seeing the place of gay people, or, the self satisfaction of feeling superior towards them as you address them in a manner that, to them, is every bit as off putting as the way they address you?
Priya, in your own way, your not that different from these guys. you cannot seem to show respect and grace to those whom you disagree with. What does that say?
The fact that something you hate so strongly might actually be moving in a way that is now gay friendly seems also to be a thing you just dont want to grasp. That is interesting. Nonsensical, but interesting. I know several gay athiests who are thrilled by it. They have the sense to see that the majority of the world that is, and will remain, religious, needs to have an outlet that is NOT homophobic.
When I used the example of the religous 15 year old, I was speaking in general. As it happens, most sociologists and experts in religion will back up my assertion. I have seen those kids, in the ER, quietly singing hymns…rocking back and forth, for comfort. I speak from personal experience Priya. You make a blanket statement that kids are not heavily invested in religion…and accuse me of claiming a universal statement mantle.
Interesting.
IF an athiest 15 year old came to me, as in your scenario, I would say, as I have when athiest children and young adults have told me of their athiesm or agnosticism, that I am a believer, but that I respect their opinion, and that many good and decent people are humanists and brights. If I was trying to convince them that gay people deserve equal rights and decency (and yes, I have met athiests who do not belive this. Russian raised, and a sad lot, and Mikyui, it was his athiesm that lead him to see humans as purely animals, and as animals to believe that we are basicly here to breed, so yes, it WAS his athiesm that lead him to that opinion of homophobia) the LAST thing I would do is insult their athiesm.
You mistake honestly with stridency. Personal honestly is a noble thing. Knowing when to hold ones tongue…like in a hospital ER…or when debating a bigot who just MIGHT have otherwise listened and had his attitude softened…which, to a gay man he might meet and not abuse in the future, is not dishonestly. Its manners, and good stragegy. Especially for the gay guy who might otherwise not be abused.
This is a gay rights site. Neither a religous or athiest one. And we were dealing with three people who hold to a sad form of the faith, and who will just disregard anything we say is we start off with “your god is crap”, so, I addressed them on their ground. It was about engaging them, NOT feeling good about myself and my views.
Can you say that right now?
Now…being who they are, they will think there is some division between us, which is ridiculous. We will both be working as hard or harder for the rights of gay people after this. They cannot understand the idea of disagreeing agreeably. Thats sad, but, in the long run, it plays in our favor.
Deep down, they are, I suspect, a bit surprised none of us has, or ever will say “wow…tell me more about Uganda and its paradise land, and how I can not be gay any more! Please”. We all know that aint gonna happen.
I am here to fight for gay rights. I respect people of no faith, and other faiths. I also learned, long ago, that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. THAT is something everyone should think about.
Comment by Gene — September 16, 2010 @ 3:27 pm
Priya, it just that if you say very simple things inaccuratly how can I trust your more involved arguments?
In the story it was a test of trust. God said don’t eat of that fruit. Satan claimed God is unfair and they now have a choice.
Comment by Bob — September 16, 2010 @ 3:28 pm
“Makyui, and also Priya, like it or not, most of this world is made up of people with a religous identity, not those without it.
Yes.
“To tell someone that their view of God is wrong can be jarring. They may think you misguided, and enter a conversation with you. Then, you have a chance. To tell them that their is no God, if they truly believe their is, just makes you look like a nut and a fool in their eyes.
People dont listen to people they consider nuts and fools.”
Possibly, but the same could be said about people who believe in the Evil Reptilian Overlords infiltrating the world’s governments in order to enslave us. If they ask me if I don’t believe, I’m going to say that no, I don’t believe. If they ask why, I’m going to say that there isn’t evidence. If they think I’m a fool after that, then there’s nothing I can do about it.
“I have seen those kids, in the ER, quietly singing hymns…rocking back and forth, for comfort. I speak from personal experience Priya.”
I gotta butt again. This actually doesn’t compare very well. Your previous example was a child who was afraid of being homosexual because his religion told him that was bad. A better example would be a child who had just lost her (non-christian) mother/sibling/friend and was afraid that she was now in Hell because she didn’t believe.
Telling a grieving child that Heaven isn’t real might be assholish, but what about telling a grieving child that Hell isn’t real?
“and Mikyui, it was his athiesm that lead him to see humans as purely animals, and as animals to believe that we are basicly here to breed, so yes, it WAS his athiesm that lead him to that opinion of homophobia”
No, that was his belief that animals are only meant to breed that lead to that.
Atheism is simply a lack of a belief in a god. That doesn’t necessarily lead to the belief that animals are only supposed to procreate.
Comment by Makyui — September 16, 2010 @ 3:45 pm
Gene, to answer your question–I would never walk up to anyone and say that if I wanted to actually have a conversation and change their mind. If you just say “you believe in crap” then people will shut down. I didn’t leave Mormonism over anything that any one person said–it was a slow realization of the fact that the church lied about things–first it was the Equal Rights Amendment, then black people and the civil rights movement then I realized I was gay and went into therapy with a church therapist who tried to turn me straight. After years of praying, aversion therapy, shock therapy etc… I was left still gay but very messed up and left the church partly just from rage. It wasn’t until I was out of the church that I found out some of the beliefs (they don’t tell you the REALLY crazy stuff untill you’re completely entrenched) and came to see that it wasn’t just what they did to me but that they are also just wrong. I didn’t come to atheism immediately either I tried various other churches and belief systems and gradually came to believe that there is no reason to believe in any God–certainly not one that takes an interest in the daily lives of human beings. But, that’s another story.
But, although I am an atheist and will discuss and argue the point when I see fit I don’t feel the need to stop anyone from finding their own way unless they try to prevent me from living my life as I choose.
Comment by Daniel — September 16, 2010 @ 3:56 pm
Gene said “like it or not, most of this world is made up of people with a religous identity, not those without it.”.
So what?
Gene said “People dont listen to people they consider nuts and fools.”.
There you go again claiming to speak for all religious people – you don’t, that’s an arrogance that really makes me dislike you.
Gene said “even the modern Confession of the Presbyterian church says that the Bible is inspired by God, but written by men, and thus open to error.”.
Let’s see your proof that the bible was inspired by a god.
Gene said “Sorry Priya, but, your claims that I have said what I did not, are not correct.”.
I don’t know what you’re referrring to here. Please quote me claiming you said something you didn’t.
Gene said “What matters the most to you Priya? Understanding these bigoted men in a way that may help you help them see the errors of their way of seeing the place of gay people, or, the self satisfaction of feeling superior towards them.”
You keep making this baseless claim that I don’t understand them. I’ve repeatedly asked you to demonstrate where I’ve expressed such a misunderstanding and you have failed to do so. Go fuck yourself asshole.
Gene said “You make a blanket statement that kids are not heavily invested in religion…and accuse me of claiming a universal statement mantle.”.
I’m not the one claiming to speak for all religious 15 year olds and all religious people in general, you are. Its obvious and non-controversial that any religious child is going to be less heavily invested in religion than an older adult by virtue of less years dedicated to it. If you want to dispute that you need some rational, not just an empty; and false “that’s a blanket statement”.
Gene said “IF an athiest 15 year old came to me, as in your scenario, I would say, as I have when athiest children and young adults have told me of their athiesm or agnosticism, that I am a believer, but that I respect their opinion, and that many good and decent people are humanists and brights.”.
Uhuh, but you wouldn’t tell them there’s no god because he might find that comforting yet you ask me to tell a religious child there is a god. You don’t ask the same of yourself that you ask of me. Once again, go fuck yourself.
Gene said “Personal honestly is a noble thing. Knowing when to hold ones tongue…like in a hospital ER…or when debating a bigot who just MIGHT have otherwise listened and had his attitude softened…which, to a gay man he might meet and not abuse in the future, is not dishonestly”.
I never said it was. You however said I should tell the religious 15 year old “god don’t make no junk”. You asked me to lie to such a 15 year old, that is dishonesty. Once again, go fuck yourself, not going to happen.
Comment by Priya Lynn — September 16, 2010 @ 4:06 pm
Bob said “Priya, it just that if you say very simple things inaccuratly how can I trust your more involved arguments?”.
Oh, please you wouldn’t have trusted me if I had said “fruit” and “tree of knowledge of good and evil”. That’s just a convenient excuse.
Bob said “In the story it was a test of trust. God said don’t eat of that fruit. Satan claimed God is unfair and they now have a choice.”.
And yet your god punished them for failing that test by throwing them out of the garden of eden. We punish people for wrongdoings. We don’t punish people for failing to trust others. Once again, how without the knowledge of good and evil were Adam and Eve to know it was wrong not to trust god? Why would you punish someone for something unless it was a wrongdoing? God is omnisicent, he knew when he created them that he made them in such a way that they were going to eat the apple even though he told them not to – why punish them for behaving exactly as he created them to and he knew they would? Once again, the foundation of your very religion is nonsensical.
How about now you explain to me how it makes moral sense for your god to make people inherit the sins of their ancestor Eve. How exactly is it just to say a baby has “original sin” not because of something the innocent baby did, but because of something the babies far distant ancestor did? How is it right to curse and punish the innocent?
Comment by Priya Lynn — September 16, 2010 @ 4:12 pm
Gene said “Mikyui, it was his athiesm that lead him to see humans as purely animals, and as animals to believe that we are basicly here to breed, so yes, it WAS his athiesm that lead him to that opinion of homophobia”.
That’s one non-sequitor after another. There is nothing about a disbelief in god(s) that requires one to believe humans are animals only here to breed and there is nothing about the belief that animals are only here to breed that requires one to hate gays.
You keep trying to suggest atheism leads to negative beliefs, but the facts are against you. Explain why 85% of non-religious Americans support marriage equality for gays when less than half of the religious people do. Here, I’ll do it for you. Without a belief in christianity you aren’t encouraged to believe its wrong to be gay, you reach an independent judgment on the morality of gayness and without god the vast majority of people conclude its moral to do whatever you want as long as you harm no one.
Comment by Priya Lynn — September 16, 2010 @ 4:18 pm
Religious peoples’ misconceptions about atheism are so weird.
But then again, churches have to demonize atheists because they know that when believers come face to face with real atheists, their membership rolls tend to drop.
Comment by Evan Hurst — September 16, 2010 @ 4:21 pm
And Bob, why does god need to test the trust of Adam and Eve when he’s all-knowing and knew prior to the test they wouldn’t trust him?
Comment by Priya Lynn — September 16, 2010 @ 4:27 pm
“And yet your god punished them for failing that test by throwing them out of the garden of eden.”
Not to mention painful and potentially deadly childbirth.
Comment by Makyui — September 16, 2010 @ 4:49 pm
Priya (102) I know you think that God must surely follow at least the sense of morality you have and it seems the Bible depicts otherwise. While I have similar thoughts at times I also know that I cannot see beyond the limits of myself and I believe it is unreasonable to make moral demands on God when I cannot possibly fathom all that He sees and knows. I trust.
I can and have come up with all the same kinds of arguments you seem to use but in the end I doubt them.
Priya (105) Why? I don’t know. I think God did not need their trust but He wanted it.
Comment by Bob — September 16, 2010 @ 4:52 pm
Bob said “I know you think that God must surely follow at least the sense of morality you have and it seems the Bible depicts otherwise.”.
It most certainly and obviously depicts otherwise.
Bob said “While I have similar thoughts at times I also know that I cannot see beyond the limits of myself and I believe it is unreasonable to make moral demands on God when I cannot possibly fathom all that He sees and knows. I trust.”.
Is it reasonable for your god to do what appears unreasonable and fail to explain how it actually is reasonable? Is it reasonable for your god to ask you to trust him when your understanding shows him to be evil? No, Bob it isn’t. It isn’t reasonable because the bible isn’t the word of an omnisicient, just, loving god, its the word of primitive bronze age goat herders and that’s why its loaded with mistakes and moral inconsistencies like this.
Bob said “I can and have come up with all the same kinds of arguments you seem to use but in the end I doubt them.”.
What reason do you have to doubt them? What evidence do you have to support the idea that your god exists and the bible is not a fairy tale just like you believe the Koran or Hinduism’s holy books are?
Bob said “Priya (105) Why? I don’t know. I think God did not need their trust but He wanted it.”.
That he did not need their trust but wanted it does not explain why he would test that trust when he already knew it wasn’t there. Obviously your god couldn’t have wanted their trust or he wouldn’t have created them without it as he surely knew he was going to, being omniscient and all.
Comment by Priya Lynn — September 16, 2010 @ 5:05 pm
Gene, btw, if your point was that I had called religion “crap” at some point. I don’t think anyone’s mind is changed about religion on these websites. I don’t think calling religion “crap” is going to change anyone’s mind but I have the right to say that it is “crap” and I believe that it is. I will continue to call it crap and continue to believe that it is crap. No, my mind wasn’t changed by people calling it “crap”, but neither was my resolve that it’s true. I’m not trying to convince you (or Pat, or Jolly) that religion is crap–they’re not actually taking in anyone’s arguments anyway.
Comment by Daniel — September 16, 2010 @ 5:57 pm
Priya (108) My understanding does not show Him as evil. It shows I do not understand as He really is. If I think God is evil I don’t jump to the conclusion that my impeccable logic has finally won out. I realize I am very likely flawed and incomplete in my thoughts and that God is in fact not evil.
While it is true that at least one goat herder (David) wrote parts of the Bible, the writers span a range of occupations and backgrounds. People were not fundamentally less intellegent or capable of intellectual thought then as now.
While it is also true that there are other books received as holy by others and that it may appear simply as cultural bias as to why I believe one and not the others I think there is some truth in many books but where I part with them is the uniqueness of the Bible and the centrality of Jesus.
As to why God, being omniscient and all powerful would do what he did the way he did it is interesting to discuss but ultimately leads nowhere because we just cannot know. I know you like to ask question apon question as to why becaue you love point out what you see as inconsistencies and that’s fine. But regarding the 15 year old. Are you telling him absolutly there is no God as your opinion or as a fact using your authority as an adult? If the latter why is that not abusing your position? And don’t say because your right.
And you lose credibility when you tell people to go f*** themselves.
Now, I realize that the purpose of TWO is not to debate theology, I am not going to go further with this discussion. Have the last word if you wish.
Comment by Bob — September 16, 2010 @ 6:01 pm
Bob said “My understanding does not show Him as evil. It shows I do not understand as He really is. If I think God is evil I don’t jump to the conclusion that my impeccable logic has finally won out. I realize I am very likely flawed and incomplete in my thoughts and that God is in fact not evil.”.
If you do not understand how he really is, how do you know he’s not evil? What makes you think morality is so complex that you can’t understand the basics of it? Wouldn’t you agree that its always wrong to punish the innocent? Yet your god does that over and over and over. If you can’t conjure up a plausible scenario as to how that’s moral maybe its time for you to consider that it isn’t. You say your god wants our trust, does it make sense for him to seek our trust and appear so untrustworthy and to somehow be trustworthy yet unwilling to explain how? Which is more likely, that your god appears indisputably evil over and over but isn’t, or that the bible was made up by ignorant people piecing together disparate stories and that’s why its full of one moral inconsistency after another?
Bob said “While it is true that at least one goat herder (David) wrote parts of the Bible, the writers span a range of occupations and backgrounds. People were not fundamentally less intellegent or capable of intellectual thought then as now.”.
If that’s the case then why is the bible loaded with errors like PI=3, bats are birds, birds walk on all fours, stars can fall to the ground and be held in your hand, unicorns exist, a “firmament” holds up the sky and when it rains the “firmament” opens up and allows the waters above to fall on the waters below? People back then had the same intellectual potential that we have, but they were ignorant of a huge array of knowledge that we take for granted. That’s why the bible reads like the work of primitive goat herders and not like the words of an all knowing super-being.
Bob said “While it is also true that there are other books received as holy by others and that it may appear simply as cultural bias as to why I believe one and not the others I think there is some truth in many books but where I part with them is the uniqueness of the Bible and the centrality of Jesus.”.
What makes Hinduism’s holy books any less unique than the bible, what about the centrality of Vishnu to the Hindu texts? Why should the centrality of Jesus be more convincing than the centrality of Vishnu?
Bob said “As to why God, being omniscient and all powerful would do what he did the way he did it is interesting to discuss but ultimately leads nowhere because we just cannot know.”.
Because it that story is a fabrication, not because your god really exists and makes sense.
Bob said “I know you like to ask question apon question as to why becaue you love point out what you see as inconsistencies and that’s fine.”.
If they’re not inconsistencies, why can’t you explain them?
Bob asked “But regarding the 15 year old. Are you telling him absolutly there is no God as your opinion or as a fact using your authority as an adult? If the latter why is that not abusing your position? And don’t say because your right.”.
I’m telling him that there is almost certainly no god because there is no evidence to support that conclusion, the bible is loaded with scientific, geographical and historical errors, loaded with xenophobia and moral inconsistecies rather than being unlike any other book you’ve ever read in its beauty and accuracy, loaded with unknowable facts, a dazzling delight like you’d expect the writings of an omnisicent god to be. I’d tell him that over and over and over we’ve found natural explanations for things people back then thought were caused by gods, I’d tell him that while there is a vanishingly small chance that there is some sort of god its impossible for it to be the god of the bible because the god described there simply could not exist. A loving and just god that allows him and his religion of choice to be questionable and who eternally tortures people for the innocent act of believing its not true simply cannot exist.
Bob said “And you lose credibility when you tell people to go f*** themselves”.
So then why are you conversing with me?
Comment by Priya Lynn — September 16, 2010 @ 6:21 pm
Bob said “Now, I realize that the purpose of TWO is not to debate theology, I am not going to go further with this discussion.”.
I get it. You’re afraid to examine your beliefs too closely because you sense that if you do so you’ll find that they aren’t likely to be true.
Comment by Priya Lynn — September 16, 2010 @ 6:23 pm
@Priya Lynn, I am on your side in the religious debate, but isn’t this all really irrelevant to the main story? And you gay-tolerant Christians, do you see any way to fight movements like this one in Uganda, that use Christianity (and outright lies like Eat Da Poo Poo Sempra) to justify their viciousness?
Comment by Tom Ardans — September 16, 2010 @ 6:30 pm
Uhm. as I’ve got both Dawkin’s and Hitchen’s new books in my bedroom so no your charge that I am afraid is baseless.
I just want to respect the purpose of TWO and not get into a protracted argument like a few months ago.
Comment by Bob — September 16, 2010 @ 6:31 pm
Oh, yes, are you the guy who was afraid of answering the moral dilemma I presented of whether it would be moral if god told you to rape and burn an innocent baby and said that act was moral?
Comment by Priya Lynn — September 16, 2010 @ 6:37 pm
Tom, Yes, I speak about it to my Christian friends to raise awareness. Christian leaders are speaking out but should do a lot more. Christain aid groups could speak out more and withold money from groups supporting the anti-gay bill.
Comment by Bob — September 16, 2010 @ 6:37 pm
Oh yes, I’m pretty sure that was you Bob. You’re definitely afraid to examine your beliefs too closely for fear of finding they aren’t likely to be true. Its one thing to read a book and formulate rebuttals in your mind that no one can respond to and quite another to have an interactive conversation with follow up questions (which you hide from like the coward you are). Not surprising that you don’t want to examine your beliefs in any detail.
Comment by Priya Lynn — September 16, 2010 @ 6:44 pm
Oh yeah? Well I have Richard Dawkins in my bedroom. Maybe I should untie him…
Comment by Tom Ardans — September 16, 2010 @ 6:52 pm
Priya, you are showing a truly astounding lack of understanding…both of faith and of human nature.
And, from your foul langauge…of basic manners and conversation. in refernece to your post referring to the 15 year old, I think I should have better expressed himself. At such a painful moment, the last thing on earth I would do is contradict the15 yer old athiests belief. He might be getting comfort from the idea that his dead mom is just gone….no more suffereing, just ended. It would be the hight of cruelty of me to interject my faith on him at that moment. If he asked me, ‘do you think she just ended..?” I would say, “I dont know” (which I can say honestly, for while I have faith, I have no proof…faith is the belief in things unseen, afterall)”but she did, and thats what matters. Tell me about her, if you feel like talkng, of, we can just sit here together, if you want company”. If he asked outright, “do you really think she is just…done…and is not hurting now?” after a heinous car accident, YES, I would happily lie, and say “yes”.
There is a time and place for everything…and, would it be a lie, to give the child comfort at that moment when his world was ending? Yes…but, it would be to the greater good. But, I suppose you would just call this dishonesty.
Must be nice to live in a world of such perfect black and white. The 15 year old is a hypothetical. The other teenageer I referred to was not.
Daniel…I think I seriously miswrote something, or you seriously misread it…I dont remember you EVER saying that religion was crap. If I implied you did, my apologies. If you did…cool with me. My favorite uncle calls it crap all the time :)
Priya, let me turn the question for you….why do 15% of athiests NOT support gay marriage? It is always dangerous to speak in absolutes. for example, when someone makes a statement that a sensible person would assume was a generality (such as my comment about telling most religous 15 year olds what that there is not God and their ignoring the rest of what you say), angry, bitter people will twist this, and make a point that gets away from the whole arguement…which was that mocking the faith of an opponant is the best way to have them ignore you thereafter.
I concur with bob…I was not here, as I said before, to discuss theology…but the best way to influence and interact with people who ARE passionate about their faith. You seemed intent on turning it into the athiest hour. Have the last word, if you wish. But, after your rather vulgar show, all I am wondering is where that pool of anger comes from…and my hope you someday address it.
It would be about the child, and their pain. NOT me.
You seem to 1) be obcessed with your own point of view
2) to quote Kim Bassinger, speaking to Russel Crowe in “Hollywood Confidential” when his character seemed out of controll duo to his choice of language; “you say fuck a lot”.
Makyui, in post 79, you said that no one said that because they were an athiest, they had a view of gay people as disquesting. Well…I gave you an example of a man whose athiesm lead him to believe that all mammals and primates are basically animals and that those who did behave in sexual manner that lead to breeding, which he saw as the continuation of he species and the primary biological goal of existance, as defective, and thus, ‘less’ than heterosexual persons.
You asked…I gave an example of someone whose athiesm lead to these opinions. dont shoot the messenger.
And, many times, I have pointed out that I know a lot of wonderful, decent and moral people are athiests. I am not anti athiest, thank you very much.
Comment by Gene — September 16, 2010 @ 7:06 pm
Damn…missed Toms comment…so, one last post.
Do I see faith as a way to fight the idiots? Yes, and I have seen it personally, with a friend who USED to be a homophobe in Kenya. After discussion…long discussion, where I showed him both the arguments FOR a gay welcoming Christianity, AND showed him both kindness and even respect (not at first deserved or reciprocated), he saw a new way of looking at Christianity AND gay people and our families. He was OFFENDED by the existance of the bishop Robinson, but, the Bishops very existance allowed the conversation to begin. As it happens, just starting with “your faith is bull” would, I know with 100% certainly, from him, have just shut down the conversation.
No…we have to talk to them and explain how the church has changed on many things, from slavery to the role of women…and then, show how this can, and is, happening with gay people also.
Or, we can feel self rightous and just tell other people how stupid their beliefs are. Always a GREAT way to ‘win friends and influence people’. Start with what they will see as an insult.
Which makes better sense you think?
(note: if you think they are studid, fine….but, tone, language, and choice of topic matter, and timing if one wants to influence someone…not just feel great about being, as one sees it, right)
Comment by Gene — September 16, 2010 @ 7:13 pm
Gene, not sure where you get the 15% of atheists not supporting gay marriage–but if it’s true, I suspect, based on my own experience it’s because they don’t support marriage at all. This is usually the argument I get from atheists is that marriage is an oppressive religios institution that has been used to subjugate women–which isn’t the same as saying gay people shouldn’t be allowed the same rights as heterosexuals.
Comment by Daniel — September 16, 2010 @ 7:16 pm
Gene go fuck yourself. I’m not reading any more of your lies or pompous BS.
Comment by Priya Lynn — September 16, 2010 @ 7:19 pm
Gene, I may not have said religion is crap, but it’s not beyone the possiblities. I don’t usually just attack people’s beliefs. I think I have stated that Bible stories like Adam & Eve and Sodom & Gamorra are myths and shouldn’t be the basis of laws.
Comment by Daniel — September 16, 2010 @ 7:19 pm
“Well…I gave you an example of a man whose athiesm lead him to believe that all mammals and primates are basically animals and that those who did behave in sexual manner that lead to breeding, which he saw as the continuation of he species and the primary biological goal of existance, as defective, and thus, ‘less’ than heterosexual persons.”
Actually, you gave me an example of a guy who, because he believed that animals are supposed to procreate, saw gay people as “less than”.
Lots of believers understand that humans are animals and primates, too, and some atheists (many Buddhists being among them) believe that humans are spiritual beings that are meant to move into a “higher” existence. One doesn’t necessarily lead into the other. Did the guy actually say, “Because I am an atheist, I believe gay people are ‘less than’,” or something to that extent?
Because I’ve seen several people say, “Because of my religious beliefs, I believe that gay people are sinful and unwholesome,” one of them being the attorney general here in Florida.
Comment by Makyui — September 16, 2010 @ 10:03 pm
Well, Makyui, yes. This guy told me bluntly, his athiesm lead to a view of humans as animals, and that animals that dont breed successfully must be defective, thus gay = bad. Sorry to disappoint you, but, this is what he said. EXACTLY that, his athiesm lead him to his homophobia. Pretty much, yup, he is as big an idiot as the AG of FL.
Now, as an athiest, you might be thinking, “but that should not happen!”, but it did. You implied that athiesm would lead to some world without homophobia, and this may be true, and I do find athiests are less likely to be homophobic than religious people. I have a lot of athiest friends. But, not universally at all, and I gave an example of a case where the opposite happened.
You are quite correct that most people of faith see humans as the primates we are. But, like the Buddhists (some of whom are athiests and approach Buddhism as an elegant and sophisticated philosophy, others, like my in laws, see it VERY much as a religion, which they practice…and a lovely one I might add, in my opinion at least) see humans as more than merely animals. This is also the standard Christian belief by the way. In this guys case, his athiesm did lead him to his homophobic view…which is unfourtionate.
This is the opposite of many people I know who, due to their faith, feel the call of people to honor the Biblical order to love justice, and to walk humbly with God, as overriding the old anti gay rulings, much as we see the same call to justice as overriding the Biblical allowance for slavery, and host of other abhorant things.
I hope you find this explanation helpful. You seem more perplexed at the idea of a bigoted athiest, and not so much angry at the idea, and me.
the big message here…the take home message that seems to drive some athiests nuts, is that 1) the world is mainly relgious, and will remain so. If anything, the world is getting MORE religious.
2) if we go into conversations, guns a’ blazen, and tell the religious they are nuts, we lose far more chances to influence them then we will ever gain…and thats just common sense, for people who feel insulted are seldom influenced.
3) neither communities of faith, nor communities of athiests are monolithic. And the faith community is FAR larger. Does it not make sense to try to influence it? And to support those parts of it that welcome and love us, as well as welcoming the contributions of the many gracious and tolerant athiests who are often our strongest supporters?
I wont apologize for common sense people. Nor for not losing my temper.
We dont have to agree on issues of faith or lack of it, but we are weakened when we do not support every pillar that supports us, and respect each others faiths, or lack there of. Or curse and rant like children when someone points out examples that do not support our world view.
A smart lawyer once asked me this when I was younger, and more strident “do you want everyone to think just like you…or to do what you want them to do?”.
Now, I will wait for any semantic error, tiny point, or grammer error to be pounced on, and my point, again ignored. That point being that if you insult a person of faiths beliefs they (oh, pardon…some percentage larger than zero, and from pesonal experience and common sense, since most people honor and respect their own beliefs, but less than 100, also known as a majority…specific enough priya?) will not listen to you, and you lose your chance to influence them, and lesson homophobia in the world.
Priya, you mentioned 85% of athiests supporting marriage for gay people. As it happens, you either luckily made up a good number, or, you checked polling data, available at Barna. I just assumed you were using good data, which, in this case, you were.
The vase majority of athiests, about 85% support us…about 15 % do not. DAniel, a good question, but, that is not all of the 15% opinion I am sure. I know some athiests who are anti marriage in general, and some who are in very happy marriages, hetero and gay. There are athiest homophobes out there, a few of which will tell you that their athiest world view leads to their view of gay people as defective. The was official Soviet medical policy folks. Check the history books.
Comment by Gene — September 17, 2010 @ 11:21 am
“Sorry to disappoint you, but, this is what he said. EXACTLY that, his athiesm lead him to his homophobia. Pretty much, yup, he is as big an idiot as the AG of FL.”
Giving you the benefit of the doubt, then yes, he’s a moron who doesn’t seem to get that atheism isn’t a moral code, nor does it necessitate ANYTHING that he said.
“You implied that athiesm would lead to some world without homophobia”
No, I never implied any of that. I was taking exception to your implication that it was the fact that Russia and China were atheist that encouraged a homophobic society — instead of, you know, the possibility that was it the same political philosophies that led to banning religious institutions (which isn’t necessarily atheist, either, for the record) as led to anti-gay legislation.
In other words, the fact that the countries were “atheist” probably had little to do with it.
On the other hand, you have the US, with many government officials who not only tout it as a “Christian” nation (and it isn’t), but outright state that their religious beliefs are justification for passing anti-gay legislation.
Although, yes, I could be implying that without religious justification, people would be much less likely to be homophobic, and according to Priya’s statistics, that does seem to be the case.
“You seem more perplexed at the idea of a bigoted athiest”
No, not really. I’ve met bigoted atheists before. I’m just making sure that you’re not unnecessarily conflating two completely different things.
“If anything, the world is getting MORE religious.”
Um. You got evidence to back this up? Because the trend seems to be leading towards increased secularism, not the other way around.
“and thats just common sense, for people who feel insulted are seldom influenced.”
That’s not necessarily true. How many kids stopped believing in Santa Claus after they were ridiculed by the older kids at school?
“neither communities of faith, nor communities of athiests are monolithic”
Indeed, though not equally so, since religions have actual, documented tenets that followers are supposed to adhere to, while atheism does not.
“Does it not make sense to try to influence it?”
Isn’t that what we’re doing?
“That point being that if you insult a person of faiths beliefs they … will not listen to you, and you lose your chance to influence them, and lesson homophobia in the world.”
And if we tell them that their beliefs/bible/god are wrong, how is that any different? If an evangelical has decided that their bible is inerrant and it says that gay people are sinful, and you tell them that no, it doesn’t actually mean that, is that not insulting to them?
“Now, I will wait for any semantic error, tiny point, or grammer error to be pounced on, and my point, again ignored.”
Oh come on, don’t be that way. You can’t make logistical errors and unnecessary conflations, and then get upset when people point them out. …Well, you can, but it’s not a good idea. A better idea is to make sure that your statements are as well thought out as you can muster, and then people won’t “nitpick”.
It gets really, really old to hear theists talk over and over about communist Russia, and Stalin and Marx and blah blah blah, as though it was atheism and not political bullshit that made that society so big and bad, every time someone brings up the fact that lots and lots of people can, and do, justify their bigotry with specific religious dogma.
Maybe we’re just supposed to sit down and shut up, like good little obedient atheists.
“The was official Soviet medical policy folks. Check the history books.”
Like now. You used the word “communist” as well when referencing Russia and China, but you decided that “atheism” was the reason why gay people were treated as lesser. Why? This is an unfair conflation. Would it make as much sense to state that since Russia was a communist state, that communism leads people to being homophobic?
I don’t think anyone said that no atheists anywhere ever are homophobic — obviously, since atheism isn’t a moral code, it’s going to include lots of people with lots of different morals. Because of this, unlike religious people, atheists don’t get to use the excuse that because they are atheist they should believe X, because it isn’t true.
On the other hand, theists who choose to ignore homophobic lines in their bible do so despite their religious tenets, not because of them.
The comparison doesn’t mesh.
Comment by Makyui — September 17, 2010 @ 2:34 pm
Makyui, a well presented response. I appreciate that. I did offend against you in one particular way…it was not you who specificly stated that an athiest dominated world would be less homophobic, although the overall gist of the conversation from the athiests was to imply that it would be a bette world than a religious one.
I take issue with a few of your comments. I promise you, when a Christian or Jew sees their Holy Book and beliefs as demanding that they “do justice, love Mercy, and walk with their Lord”, and see this as superseeing any teaching that would lead to homophobia or other ills, it is NOT “despite” their faith, but because of their faith that they are gay inclusive.
The commenton semantic errors was a refernece to Priya, who jumped on my comment about a religious 15 year old not appreciating being told their faith was untrue. I suppose I should have said “most”, but, it sure seemed to me that a small error in presentation was used to divert the conversation away from my real point, which is, once again, Insulting Religious People Only Makes Them Ignore You.
You made half a good point about telling a literalist fundamentalist that he or she is not interpreting the Bible correctly can be seen as insulting…but, not quite. Most literlaists will engage in a discussion about this, and, truly, I have seen many later change their opinion and later become gay welcoming and friendly. In contrast, is you just say “Its all wrong, and all untrue” they see you not as a misguided or wrong fellow, but “other”, and that glassey look in their eye as you tgry to explain why its all untrue, well…there is a reason for that.
As per the world getting more relgious, well, thats easily enoough proven. Just dig on line for easily gotten stats on life in India, the spread of Christiaity in China (amazing growth!) and of Islam there also. I have been there several times (married to a wonderful Chinese man), and have seen this myself. Africa, from the RofSA to the Islamic north is one of the fastest growing population regions on earth, and virtually everyone there is religious, from the tolerant Archbishop Tutu and Anglicans of SA to the homophobic and violent Christians of Nigeria and Uganda. Non believers are rare as rubies there, and their birthrate is high. Same for latin America. Look at a list of nations in “population decline by nation” and a list of fastest growing nations, and notice which are secular. Mainly, the decliners are in northern Europe, with their declining populations, and are the only place on earth, Canada aside, also with a declining population, held up only by immigration, mainly from nations with high religiosity, where secularism is the norm, and even there, majorities in almost every nation are at least nominally Christian…if only the baptism, Christmas and Easter type. No, the growing population nations, from Egypt to Pakistan to Congo to Brasil, to China and India, Africa and the Caribbean are VERY relgious, and growing more so.
I am not presented these facts as good or bad…just as “is”. And, a development we must deal with.
Even in secular Europe, old churches are finding new uses…as churhces for Caribbean immigrants, and Mosques for newly immigrated Turks and Arabs (among
others). The most common name for baby boys in Amsterdam (!!!) is… Mohammad….which makes sense, since the city is now (seriously, check it out) majority Muslim (with a Jewish mayor no less). Same in Rotterdam, Cologne, Marsailles, etc. Formerly officially athiest Russia is rapidly embracing Orthodoxy (and a homophobic variety, sad to say) and 1/7 of Russians are Muslim. Forgive the length of this…but, I think by now you see my point.
Lastly, no…I can say with utter honestly, you are not really influencing it (in reference to the question about influencing people of faith) in a serious way. I am not saying NO one will be influenced by your arguements against religion…but, from personal experience, far more people will shut your arguements off. They are not interested in hearing that their religion is untrue. But, as the movement of whole denominations that were once homophobic (Episcopal, Presbyterian, UCC, Lutherans among others) shows, the religious CAN and ARE changing. Slowly. It is a lot easier, and possible, to show religious people why they should be gay friendly (and millions of them have made this move) than it is to just get them to see faith as a false thing. If they already think you are wrong about one thing (their faith), they will, logically be predisposed to assume a person mistaken (in their opinion) about one important thing will be wrong about another (how they should see/treat gay people).
Makyui, one of my best pals is an athiest. He is hetero, and has little use for religion. But, he is a lawyer, and the best debater I know, and a REAL ally and gay rights activist. It was he that first pointed out these things to me. I hope these answers are of some use to you. I appreciate your attitude and tone.
Comment by Gene — September 17, 2010 @ 3:19 pm
Gene, it’s hard to wade through all this, but a huge distinction exists between those who support their position by reasoning and appealing to evidence (which may be faulty), and those who defend a position with a holy text. The first can possibly be reasoned with, the second can have every single argument knocked down, and in the end will point to the holy text. That’s what’s so sad about Fundamentalists. They derive huge comfort from their beliefs, but can end up committing atrocities to that end.
The witch hunts against children in Africa are a great example.
Comment by Tom Ardans — September 17, 2010 @ 4:02 pm
Gene, atheism is ONLY that you don’t accept that there is a God or Gods. That’s it. Therefore Buddhists, Scientologists and Raelians could all be considered atheists. Beyond that there is no dogma. Being an atheist doesn’t require that you accept evolution, science or anything else. In fact, many people who call themselves “evolutionary biologists” are extremely homophobic and are also atheists. Whether someone’s atheism led them to their homophobia isn’t an endightment on all atheists any more than the vast number of people who rely on their religious beliefs to justify their own bigotry. All atheism requires is that you don’t believe in any god–beyond that there can be any number of kooky beliefs.
Comment by Daniel — September 17, 2010 @ 4:11 pm
“I take issue with a few of your comments. I promise you, when a Christian or Jew sees their Holy Book and beliefs as demanding that they “do justice, love Mercy, and walk with their Lord”, and see this as superseeing any teaching that would lead to homophobia or other ills, it is NOT “despite” their faith, but because of their faith that they are gay inclusive.”
See, I would disagree here and say that it’s the natural disposition of the person that does this, because in order to reach this conclusion, they would have to deliberately ignore the parts in the bible that encourage intolerance and focus instead on the positive and inclusive parts. In all likelihood, they’d be tolerant people regardless of what their religion was; I find it extremely hard to believe that without their religion, they wouldn’t already want to do justice and love mercy, and all that.
“The commenton semantic errors was a refernece to Priya”
Okay, fair enough.
“Forgive the length of this…but, I think by now you see my point.”
Sure, and thanks for all that.
“In contrast, is you just say “Its all wrong, and all untrue” they see you not as a misguided or wrong fellow, but “other”, and that glassey look in their eye as you tgry to explain why its all untrue, well…there is a reason for that.”
Bigotry? …Okay, that wasn’t entirely serious, but saying that they’d dismiss us not because we’re wrong, but because we’re “other” has an unhappy implication that we’re completely unworthy of consideration just because we’re atheist. Kind of a familiar ring to that, no? LGBT people are “othered”, too, but we as LGBT people are not expected to STFU about things in the way that we as atheists apparently are.
It’s not necessarily an automatic shutout, if they’re already reasonable enough to consider that their stance on homosexuality is in error. If they argue that it’s a statement from God, and you argue that there is no evidence for that, and they have no answer to that, then they’ve lost the argument. If “there is no evidence to support it” is too incredulous an explanation, then they’re the ones being unreasonable and they ought to be called on it.
Honestly, in my case, “you have no evidence for your god” isn’t going to be the first thing out of my mouth, but if they’re going to spit venom and fire at me and claim that I’m an agent of Satan and that God is going to send me to Hell, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to point out that they’re standing on a tower built on a foundation made of farts.
Comment by Makyui — September 17, 2010 @ 9:50 pm
We speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of the rulers of this age who are coming to nothing. God has revealed it by His Spirit. The Spirit searches all things even deep things of God. The man without The Spirit of God does not accept the things that come from the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
about homosexuality, it is among the signs of the end of the World we are in today.Other signs include, the wars, nation rising against nation,famines eartquakes etc- If you checked your current affairs you would realise that many unusual things are happening worldwide! actually they are called begining of birth-pains! some birth pains take a whole day a week or some hours.
God will judge us using our own words whether we claim homosexuality is good, or that God does not exist.Or abuse others
Check your deepest thoughts/heart because only an individual can know thier deepest heart and ensure that you are strongly certain of your life span and incharge of what happens in your life in and around, NOw and in the future. If you are certain about the power or powers that cause the earth to rotate around the sun and other scientific facts about this life (other than God) then you can always reject the person of GOD the ALMIGHTY!The beauty is you make a choice. however if you are not sure and I mean not sure, then seek for the right things. Make sure in the future both in your physical life here on earth and when you don’t have breath anymore that you never have regrets or you will not make statements like I wish I knew!or how could this have happend, or I should have listend!
This is our stand;Homosexuality is a perversion, and unnatural and a lie infested in humanity by satan-lucifer, the devil! why? because the devil seeks for humans who neither glorify God, or give thanks to him to deprave thier minds!These people are victims of the devil given over to unnatural, shameful perversions.The only enemy that we as human beings have is Satan! but not ourselves. We Love the people BUT the act must not be accepted!each one condoning this act is actully involving in satan’s waggon of making people become perverted
Comment by Rina cho — September 28, 2010 @ 8:16 am
[...] international fight for equality as evidenced by a recent blog post at Truth Wins Out. In it, Moses called on Anglican leaders to denounce the Anti-Homosexuality Bill. It is time for Christian leaders in Africa to start [...]
Pingback by Americans Can Learn from Africans in the Fight for Sexual Freedom « El Castillo — October 3, 2010 @ 5:57 pm
I write with a disbelief of what my close friend called Moses has turned to. I believe that Moses knows very well that he had a father and a mother even when they died when he was still tender. I simply ask the good Lord, Why Moses Mworeko? It’s better that both parents are no more otherwise it would have been a life shuttering experience for the rest of their lives!
I attended Moses’ wedding and tears of joy were running not only on my chicks but also his caretakers as they gave the speaches. As of now, they have no words for the girl’s family! Moses’ children will in real sense have no father! What about the beautiful lady he left home? I believe in a God of miracles and Moses knows that very well, hoping the light will shine upon his face to know ” The Way, The Truth and The Life” JOHN 3:16
Forget me, forget your wife, forget your only biological children and NEVER FORGET GOD.
God Bless you Moses as you read this message!
Comment by Justine kyomuhendo — October 4, 2010 @ 10:01 am
Justine, blame the people who want him and others like him dead because of the lie that he’s somehow evil for being who he is.
Change the society who wants to murder and slay out of hatred and bigotry, and there won’t be any more need for people to hide in sanctuary out of fear for their lives.
Comment by Makyui — October 4, 2010 @ 10:17 am
Mr.Makyui, Moses has the ball in his court. He can decide to free himself by turning to God and repent. God accepts repentant sinners and I’am sure that his family and the church will rejoice at his decision. May the Holy spirit guide him in making his choices.
Comment by Justine kyomuhendo — October 5, 2010 @ 6:37 am
Perhaps the people who want him dead should repent, instead.
Comment by Makyui — October 5, 2010 @ 7:30 am
[...] sensationally anti-gay tabloids in his home country. He has called on African Anglican Bishops to condemn anti-homosexuality legislation and current state-sponsored criminal [...]
Pingback by Kushaba Moses Mworeko: International Sexual Freedom Advocate | VenusPlusX — January 26, 2011 @ 5:33 pm